Mom denied food assistance shoots children and self in Texas

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

SAN ANTONIO (AP) — A Texas woman who for months was unable to qualify for food stamps pulled a gun in a state welfare office and staged a seven-hour standoff with police that ended with her shooting her two children before killing herself, officials said Tuesday.

The children, a 10-year-old boy and a 12-year-old girl, remained in critical condition Tuesday. The shooting took place at a Texas Department of Health and Human Services building in Laredo, where police said about 25 people were inside at the time.

Authorities identified the mother as Rachelle Grimmer, 38, and children Ramie and Timothy.

Grimmer first applied for food stamps in July but was denied because she didn't turn in enough information, Texas Department of Health and Human Services spokeswoman Stephanie Goodman said.

Goodman didn't know what Grimmer specifically failed to provide. In addition to completing an 18-page application, families seeking state benefits also must provide documents proving their information, such as proof of employment and residency.

"We were still waiting, and if we had that, I don't know if she would still qualify or not," Goodman said.

Goodman said Grimmer's last contact with the agency appeared to be a phone call in mid-November. When the family entered the Laredo office on Monday shortly before 5 p.m., Goodman said Grimmer asked to speak to a new caseworker, and not the one whom she worked with previously.

Shortly thereafter, Goodman said, Grimmer was taken to a private room to discuss her case. She said it was there the mother revealed a gun and the standoff began.

Police negotiators stayed on the phone with Grimmer throughout the evening, but she kept hanging up, Baeza said. She allegedly told negotiators about a litany of complaints against state and federal government agencies.

Despite those complaints, Baeza said it wasn't clear what specifically triggered the standoff.

"This wasn't like a knee-jerk reaction," said Baeza, adding that Grimmer felt she was owed restitution of some sort.

Grimmer let a supervisor go unharmed around 7:45, but stayed inside the office with her children. After hanging up the phone around 11:45, police heard three shots, and police entered the building. Inside, they found Grimmer's body and her two wounded children.

The children were "very critical" and unconscious when taken from the scene, Baeza said.

Goodman credited an office supervisor, a 24-year veteran of the agency, for ensuring the release of the other employees.

"He had told her he would try to help her, and that if she would let everyone else leave, he would talk to her," Goodman said.

Goodman didn't know whether Grimmer had a job, or whether her children were covered under Medicaid welfare services or the state children's health insurance program. The family had no history with the Texas Department of Child Protective Services.

Grimmer also appeared to fall out of touch during her pursuit of food stamps. The mother originally applied July 7, but Goodman said Grimmer missed her first interview and didn't call back and reschedule for a few weeks. Her case was closed Aug. 8 for lack of a full application, Goodman said.

How much food stamp money a family receives depends on their income level. The average family on food stamps in Texas receives $294 a month.

Three months later, Grimmer called the agency's ombudsman Nov. 16 and requested a review of how her rejected case was handled. Goodman said the agency found that caseworkers acted appropriately after looking over Grimmer's file, and a supervisor called Grimmer's cell phone last Thursday to tell her the outcome. No one answered and the phone's voicemail box was full, Goodman said.

"The indications she had she was dealing with a lot of issues," Goodman said.

State welfare offices have come under scrutiny in the past for being overburdened, but Goodman said the agency has made significant strides in the past three years. She said wait times are shorter, and that Grimmer was scheduled for her initial interview just one day after applying. Grimmer didn't make the appointment, she said.

Goodman said it's not unusual for caseworkers to confront angry or confused benefit-seekers, but that it's very rare for a situation to escalate to violence.

[#FF0000]

I'm speculating but... a full voicemail box? First thing that comes to my mind is collectors.

Fucking tragic.

[Agent Equality]

ah Capitalism...it never fails to take lives

[Le Socialiste]

It's moments like these that really shine a light on the true nature of capitalism and its effects on the broader population. Unfortunately, there's going to be some people who will simply see this as an incident revolving around the personal choices of an unstable individual, further cementing the view that those seeking state assistance are little more than social degenerates. Tragic doesn't even begin to describe it.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Fucking tragic. On top of all the material problems of poverty, it's a mind-fuck as well. The only thing worse than having a job is not having one and dealing with unemployment and temp agencies and government programs where you have to bend over backwards to prove that you are "worthy" of getting relief that barely helps you stay afloat take an immeasurable psychological and emotional toll. On top of that then you see tv where in show after show everyone's living in lilly-white communities in McMansions and media and political figures are demonizing greedy poor people who supposedly have such easy lives mooching off of food-stamps and shit.

It's only shocking that people don't flip out more often with this kind of situation.

Even as someone who doesn't buy into all the "bootstraps" stuff and is an anti-capitalist, being unemployed or loosing an apartment or being totally in debt is demoralizing and made me feel deeply (like don't want to get out of bed) depressed and like worthless shit and alone -- even when intellectually I know that it's the system and that there are tons of people going through the same shit.

[Veovis]

I really, really, really hate capitalism. :(

[Smyg]

I'd love to say "Only in America", but this shit applies everywhere.

[Zealot]

I hear stories like this every fucking day and it makes me angry more than sad. People are so apathetic and jaded these days and either revolution won't be happening for a long, long time or it will be very, very, very violent because surely patience has a limit.

[Veovis]

Is there a link to this? I'd like to post it to facebook.

[Per Levy]

In addition to completing an 18-page application, families seeking state benefits also must provide documents proving their information, such as proof of employment and residency.

an 18 page application to get food stamps + more info? the hell. its a really sickening case, how desperate must she has been to shoot her kids and then herself?


Goodman didn't know whether Grimmer had a job, or whether her children were covered under Medicaid welfare services or the state children's health insurance program.

what does that mean, are the children not covered now? do they have to pay for their injuries?


Is there a link to this? I'd like to post it to facebook.

google it there are a lot of articles about it like this: http://news.yahoo.com/texas-mom-shot-kids-self-denied-food-stamps-220849738.html

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

It's from the AP so it's on hundreds of sites.

For future reference you can usually just Google the first sentence of an article and you'll find links to it.

In this case, doing so will get you:

http://hosted2.ap.org/APDEFAULT/3d281c11a96b4ad082fe88aa0db04305/Article_2011-12-06-US-Texas-Welfare-Shootings/id-4e3178eef4284e1a8a718e468dce8409

And a lot more.

[Manic Impressive]

I know how she felt. Luckily I don't have dependants.

The most shattering aspect of the video interview (http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/2011/11/08/bedworth-suicide-pact-couple-found-lying-side-by-side-92746-29739580/) in which Mark Mullins describes his and his partner Helen's struggle to survive acute poverty (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/poverty) is the knowledge that a few months after it was recorded, both were dead, having killed themselves in an "apparent suicide pact".
The video, filmed at a Coventry soup kitchen run by a Salvation Army charity worker, is a humbling, devastating chronicle of a tragedy foretold: a couple whose urgent and complex social care needs were seemingly ignored by a glacial welfare (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/welfare) system which both baffled and terrified them, and may ultimately have crushed them.
Once a week, Mark told the interviewer, they would undertake a 12-mile round trip on foot to the food kitchen. The free vegetables they brought back with them to would be made into seven days worth of soup, cooked on a single gas ring set up in the one habitable room in the house in which they lived. As Mark puts it, with what now looks like extraordinary understatement:

"We're living hand to mouth."
No formal verdict of suicide has been issued in this case; the police describe the deaths (pending toxicology tests) as "unexplained". The wider factors contributing to the tragedy are, one suspects, manifold. Acutely vulnerable people like the Mullins will have "slipped through the net" before, and will do so again.
But it is hard not to see how the risk of tragedies like this occurring might be increasing. Austerity is rattling through those parts of the welfare state from which the Mullins sought help. Benefits are being cut (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/oct/22/protests-benefit-cuts-disabled-people), advice and advocacy services savaged (http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011/sep/03/citizens-advice-cuts-threaten-vulnerable), housing support diminished (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/patrick-butler-cuts-blog/2011/jan/24/big-society-charites-expect-big-cuts), and mental health (http://www.channel4.com/news/50-000-nhs-job-cuts-hit-mental-health-services)and social care (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/28/elderly-social-care-funding-cuts?newsfeed=true) services more tightly rationed. For many vulnerable people, engaging with this shrinking and more punitive welfare apparatus, in a climate of relentless media attacks on "benefit scroungers," is an increasingly stressful and fearful proposition.
As David Gooding, the Citizen's Advice Bureau manager in the Mullins' home town of Bedworth (the Bedworth CAB is also facing cuts) told the Coventry Evening Telegraph (http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/2011/11/10/cab-boss-issues-spending-cuts-warning-after-apparent-double-suicide-at-bedworth-92746-29753827/#ixzz1dnWNy800):

"Cuts in public funding are leaving more and more vulnerable people, particularly those with mental health (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/mental-health) problems, without a lifeline as services that they have previously relied on are cut back or lost completely."
So what happens to vulnerable people when the "lifeline" is withdrawn? In some cases, the consequence is personal catastrophe.
Guardian reader Ally Smith sent me some newspaper reports of people who had been apparently driven to suicide as a result of cuts, or fear of cuts. Some involve people who worked in public services (and I will come back to these in a future post). Most involve often vulnerable people who have been plunged into despair by benefit cuts, work capability assessments, or fear of the consequences of either. Here are a selection:
• Richard Sanderson, 44, an unemployed helicopter pilot of Southfields in London, who stabbed himself twice in the heart in May. He had been informed that his family faced a £30 a week cut in housing benefit and he feared this would leave his family homeless. At the inquest, the coroner noted (http://www.wandsworthguardian.co.uk/news/9215292.Dad_committed_suicide_after_housing_benefi t_cut/):

"The fact his [Sanderson's] housing benefit was about to be cut and the family would be at risk of having nowhere to live, and being ordered to give up his training course because of the Job Centre's rules, would appear to be especially poignant and tragic."
• Paul Willcoxson, 33, of Corby, Northants, was according to the suicide note he left behind, worried about benefit cuts (http://www.thisishampshire.net/news/9095159.Jobseeker_took_own_life/) when he hung himself in April.
• Poet and writer Paul Reekie, 48, killed himself at his home in Edinburgh in June 2010 (http://www.scotsman.com/news/author_s_suicide_due_to_slash_in_benefits_1_136796 3). His death led to the setting up of the Black Triangle Campaign (http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/). He left no suicide note but friends wrote a letter to the chancellor George Osborne claiming that two letters Reekie had carefully laid out on his table indicated why he had taken his own life:

"One was notifying him that his housing benefit had been stopped. The other was notifying him that his incapacity benefit had been stopped."
• Elaine Christian, 57, of Hull, was worried, according to reports of an inquest in July (http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/Woman-drowned-drain-upset-health-check/story-12927176-detail/story.html), about a meeting to assess her disability (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/disability) benefits. She was found drowned in a drain with ten self-inflicted cuts to her wrist and she had taken painkillers. Although she left a suicide note, an open verdict was recorded. Her husband told the inquest:

"She [Elaine] was worried about the assessment, but was never one to complain."
Do cuts kill? Perhaps all we can say with confidence, on the basis of these illustrative reports, is that they can be a significant contributory factor, alongside unemployment, personal debt, and mental illness. The removal or reduction of support services for the most vulnerable cannot help. Stress and harship caused by benefit assessments perceived to be unfairly punitive also appears regularly in these grim accounts.
I've not seen any attempts to measure the impact on population health of public spending cuts in the UK (and please do point me in the direction of any) but an alarming report in the Lancet medical journal last month analysed the effects of austerity on the health of the Greek population. Among the findings, according to the Guardian's report (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/10/greece-economic-crisis-health), was this:

"Suicides rose by 17% during the same period [2007-2009], and unofficial 2010 data quoted in parliament mention a 25% rise compared with 2009. The health minister reported a 40% rise in the first half of 2011 compared with the same period in 2010.
'The national suicide helpline reported that 25% of callers faced financial difficulties in 2010 and reports in the media indicate that the inability to repay high levels of personal debt might be a key factor in the increase in suicides,' the Lancet authors write."
Britain is not Greece. But what is happening here as the cuts start to bite? Here's what Gooding says he observes at the Bedworth and Nuneaton Citizen's Advice Bureau:

"We are seeing significantly more people with mental health problems who are having problems dealing with their financial and family affairs as support services are lost... Without help many people suffering from a mental health illness have difficulties completing official forms for application or renewal of benefits and other services including help with their housing costs. This can mean that benefits are stopped or suspended and can, in some circumstances, only be reinstated on an appeal that can take up to a year to be heard."
He adds, ominously:

"The government's proposed benefits reforms are likely to make this situation worse."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/patrick-butler-cuts-blog/2011/nov/16/do-public-spending-cuts-kill

[Manic Impressive]

Also This (http://thecommune.co.uk/2011/07/04/making-a-killing-suicide-under-capitalism/) is an excellent analysis of suicide under capitalism

[IndependentCitizen]

I honestly cannot imagine what was going through her mind during the incident; all rational thought goes out the window and desperate deeds are done. How can humans deny another human something to eat, where's the morality in that?

[Commissar Rykov]

I don't get this people who can't afford to live cannot get on assistance but I have seen the children of Petit-Bourgeois families in College living off foodstamps even though they get everything paid for by their parents. What the fuck is that shit about?:(

[black magick hustla]

I don't get this people who can't afford to live cannot get on assistance but I have seen the children of Petit-Bourgeois families in College living off foodstamps even though they get everything paid for by their parents. What the fuck is that shit about?:(

this is true but also be careful because there has been this shitty hysteria against college students on food stamps where those benefits are being cut off. in michigan they did that. most people i knew in college that were on food stamps were not "petit bourgeois" actually. some of them were but i think the grand mayority weren't.

[Commissar Rykov]

this is true but also be careful because there has been this shitty hysteria against college students on food stamps where those benefits are being cut off. in michigan they did that. most people i knew in college that were on food stamps were not "petit bourgeois" actually. some of them were but i think the grand mayority weren't.
True enough I didn't mean to imply that all are. I just happen to know a girl who is and would brag about it. Other than the overwhelming urge to punch her in the mouth. I just find it maddening to be honest as there is no reason for this woman to be denied other than the bureaucracy is there to basically keep people from getting benefits.

[socialistjustin]

Getting assistance can suck. Since I was 18 I got food stamps pretty quick, but my Dad is without medical despite being on disability and is having a helluva time getting the medical and got a poor $17 a month in food stamps. They make it to where you're so fucking down on yourself that you don't even feel like applying for help and it's fucking bullshit. Shit like this should never happen because people who do this feel bad enough already, they shouldn't need to jump through hoops to get some assistance.

[the last donut of the night]

i think this shows the old "socialism or barbarism" motto is a bit useless now. this is fucking barbarism, we need socialism to get out of this shitty world

[RadioRaheem84]

Capitalism is anti-human.

[Threetune]

If she had used that gun to make a few small holes in the system, …………… …?

[Kitty_Paine]

I honestly cannot imagine what was going through her mind during the incident; all rational thought goes out the window and desperate deeds are done. How can humans deny another human something to eat, where's the morality in that?

There's no morality in that. It seems the society that we grow up in teaches us to be competitive and cut-throat, we're taught we have to step on others and only wory about ourselves to get ahead.

It's funny though when I think about it because with the Uniteds States being a generally Christian country you would think there would be a lot more help for the poor and needy. Hell, technically If the United States had even some Christian value left in it it would be half way to a socialist country. So why is everybody here so against socialism and helping the poor when the Christianity preaches it so clearly? Are people just picking and choosing what 'kind' of chiristian they want to be? "Oh I like this message, oh but this verse wont work for me..." It seems as though our "Christian Country" with all of its "Christian values" and good people need to go back to sunday school -

"...If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven; and come and follow me." (Matthew 19:21)

And a jab at Capitalism -

"For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness."
(1 Timothy 6:10,11)

And there's a lot more where that came from. Anyway, I'm just surprised that in such a Christian dominated country more people don't strive to help other people in need. Why the fuck isn't this country closer to a socialist structure yet? :p



If she had used that gun to make a few small holes in the system, …………… …?

Are you saying she should have shot the workers there? Or....?

[coda]

<<I don't get this people who can't afford to live cannot get on assistance but I have seen the children of Petit-Bourgeois families in College living off foodstamps even though they get everything paid for by their parents. What the fuck is that shit about?>>

yeah, you would think the less you have,the more help you need-- the more you would qualify for assistance? Right? Wrong!!! oddly, the policy seems to be, in the US, that the people who have a somewhat of a way forward and out, i.e. minimum job, minimum housing, minimum bank account, minimum assets-- the application will be favorable over someone who is completely destitute such as a homeless persons, abject poverty. This was Clinton legislation, PRWORA (Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity) enacted in 1996 requiring that person's receiving aid would receive it temporarily and with the stipulation that they would actively seek work. This replaced AFDC (aid for families with dependent children).

[Threetune]

There's no morality in that. It seems the society that we grow up in teaches us to be competitive and cut-throat, we're taught we have to step on others and only wory about ourselves to get ahead.

It's funny though when I think about it because with the Uniteds States being a generally Christian country you would think there would be a lot more help for the poor and needy. Hell, technically If the United States had even some Christian value left in it it would be half way to a socialist country. So why is everybody here so against socialism and helping the poor when the Christianity preaches it so clearly? Are people just picking and choosing what 'kind' of chiristian they want to be? "Oh I like this message, oh but this verse wont work for me..." It seems as though our "Christian Country" with all of its "Christian values" and good people need to go back to sunday school -

"...If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven; and come and follow me." (Matthew 19:21)

And a jab at Capitalism -

"For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness."
(1 Timothy 6:10,11)

And there's a lot more where that came from. Anyway, I'm just surprised that in such a Christian dominated country more people don't strive to help other people in need. Why the fuck isn't this country closer to a socialist structure yet? :p




Are you saying she should have shot the workers there? Or....?

As a rule I don’t go in for “what ifs” but I was just wondering what the responses would have been had this women, (driven out of meaningful connection with the benefits of modern human society and its developments, so utterly out of her mind apparently by relentless repression as to act against her best instincts for her children, nurtured for twelve years, and her own self-preservation) shot one or more of her tormenters instead.
Third world “terrorisms” sprang to mind.

[Art Vandelay]

There's no morality in that. It seems the society that we grow up in teaches us to be competitive and cut-throat, we're taught we have to step on others and only wory about ourselves to get ahead.

It's funny though when I think about it because with the Uniteds States being a generally Christian country you would think there would be a lot more help for the poor and needy. Hell, technically If the United States had even some Christian value left in it it would be half way to a socialist country. So why is everybody here so against socialism and helping the poor when the Christianity preaches it so clearly? Are people just picking and choosing what 'kind' of chiristian they want to be? "Oh I like this message, oh but this verse wont work for me..." It seems as though our "Christian Country" with all of its "Christian values" and good people need to go back to sunday school -

"...If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven; and come and follow me." (Matthew 19:21)

And a jab at Capitalism -

"For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness."
(1 Timothy 6:10,11)

And there's a lot more where that came from. Anyway, I'm just surprised that in such a Christian dominated country more people don't strive to help other people in need. Why the fuck isn't this country closer to a socialist structure yet? :p

I think it is because a lot of the American population is so divorced from not only reality but their own sacred gospels. I truly believe that the vast majority have never read the bible and probably had their religion past down to them. Truthfully I was a christian until I read the bible.

[Theguy]

While this is tragic that the woman died I think it is a very knee jerk reaction to instantly blame the system based on the current facts presented in the article.

Based on the article it appears that it was her own fault that her application was denied. It said she was missing information(notably her employment issue and the medicaid issue) and that she missed her appointment and never followed through in scheduling another one. These are all relevant when applying for benefits.

For a while I worked in a State Senator's office and we often had to help people fill out these applications. While they can appear daunting based on length they are not all that difficult to fill out. And, the additional information required is usually stuff designed to just back up stuff you fill out like copies of any degrees, licenses and such you may hold. And, for the most part if you were missing something the agency in question was willing to work with you and help you.

We had a few cases where applications were denied and for the most part they were due to person's own apathy to the situation or sheer laziness. I remember one case with an eldery man, owned a house but didn't have any income except for SSI. He needed help paying his gas bill. So we submitted an application for him submitted all the relevant documents, income tax statements, bank statements and the like to prove he couldn't pay a full gas bill. They reduced his gas bill to something like 20 dollars a month. The only thing he had to do was every 3 months they would send a letter asking if you still needed the special payment plan and to fill out a short form something like 3 or 4 questions whether your income increased and the like. Without fail he would not fill this out or send it back to them and they would take him off the payment plan. He would then come in a month later screaming and cursing how they screwed him and took away his payment plan. We would then go through the whole applicaiton process again and get him reapproved. After this happened 3 or 4 times and I learned that the gas company was sending out these notifications to be updated every 3 months I asked him why he didn't just fill out the update form they sent to him to which he replied "I can't be bothered dealing with that shit. They should just know I want it continued."

I'm not saying that everytime someone is denied it is like this and I know of cases where people who really needed help and applied were given a raw deal. And, the system has to change to allow those who really need help to get it. But, we can't blame everything on the system when you need to take some personal responsibility. i have tons of examples from work where we did everything we could to get people assistance and help only to get to the final step where all they had to do was make one phone call or show up for one interview and then refuse to go because they couldn't be bothered to, get denied and come back months later complaining how it wasn't fair.

[mrmikhail]

Not to detract from the serious tragedy of those who perished in this event, but...the woman could afford a firearm and she and her children (or at least one of the children) had cell phones with apparent data plans(thus the ability to post on facebook during the event)...but she couldn't afford food? this confuses me :confused:

[Comrade Samuel]

Overlooked examples of the failure of capitalism: 13,539,091,573,001

God bless America.

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

ah Capitalism...it never fails to take lives
agreed.
whats the point of the opium of capitalism if it doesnt do anything