Discussion in the framework of 'populist' economics?

[Rafiq]

When I say populist I mean "this will stimulate the economy and productivity" or whatever.

But what if sacraficing the gains of the proletariat "stimulates productivoty and the economy" (i.e. Crushing Unions, etc.)

Should we care? Isn't it the goal of the proletariat to weaken the class enemy? Take for example the 70's when the power of Labour was strong. This, apparently contributed to a recession. But isn't that a victory?

What I mean is this: should we go out of our way to cripple the capitalist economy, by means of using the power of labor? Why should we want to create a better capitalist mode of production? We understand the systematic contradictions, we know capitalism will not work.

Sorry if I sound stupid, it's just something I've thought about.

[Caj]

In Wage Labour and Capital, Marx says that the best scenario for the workers in capitalist society is the continuous accumulation of capital by the bourgeoisie. It isn't in any way good for the workers. This scenario results in a decrease of the workers' wages vis-a-vis the increasing wealth of the bourgeoisie, but at least their absolute wages are still rising in this scenario. The converse scenario, in which the bourgeoisie are losing capital, results in less employment for the workers, more competition among the workers, and a decline in absolute wages among the workers (and thus a decline in living standards).

So, in short, no, the workers shouldn't attempt to "cripple the capitalist economy", as the healthy development of such is the best possible scenario for the workers (until the revolution, that is).

EDIT: That isn't to say, of course, that the workers should allow the bourgeoisie to do whatever they want. The proletariat still needs to unite as a class to demand certain concessions that are to its benefit from the bourgeoisie while in capitalist society. What the workers should not do, however, is attempt to deter economic growth, which is the result of the accumulation of capital by the bourgeoisie -- this would only result in the further suffering of the working class.

[citizen of industry]

Who of us would ever advocate stimulating the economy by sacrificing the proletariat? When do we not fight for higher wages, better social welfare, and end to unemployment, etc.?

Actually, I don't think increasing the power of labor does much to cripple the economy. It makes for a more stable society less prone to crisis with better social programs, higher wages, less unemployment and more consumption, less reliance on credit, less homelessness, etc. What it does do is cripple profits. Was the 2008 recession due to the power of labor? Hardly. It was more the result of decades of decreasing the power of labor and thus aggravating overproduction, falling rates of profit and accumulation.

[Ocean Seal]

The gains of the workers will always cut into the profits of the bourgeoisie. It is ultimately the bourgeoisie which kill off their own productivity. Populist economics should always be countered through a programme displaying class interests and the fact that the working class never sees the profit of the ruling class. This point should be made militantly. Every opportunity to weaken the class enemy must be taken.

[Rafiq]

Anarchy, can you link that Marx "quote"?

[workersadvocate]

We can't have the discussion based on the underlying assumption that all parties in society have common interests. Class interests, distinct and antagonistic, must enter the discussion from the very beginning and be emphasize throughout.

[xub3rn00dlex]

Isn't that the whole point of capitalism though? Wouldn't eliminating proletarian gains enable the shift to a newer equilibrium point which when compared to now is not operating at efficiency?

[Caj]

Anarchy, can you link that Marx "quote"?

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/ch08.htm

^This.

If you haven't read Wage Labour and Capital yet, I would certainly recommend it. It isn't long at all and gives great insight into the capitalist mode of production.