Refuse The Military or Only The Occupation?

[il Commie]

First of all, hi you all, I'm "il Commy" who lost the password to his username and don't have the strengh to deal with Che-Live's help system.

And for the subject - in less then 3 years it will be my time to join the israeli army. I'm ofcourse an anti-zionist. What do you think I should do - refuse joining the military at all? Refuse serving in the occupied territories? Fake a mental illness and drop off the army (note that no working place here will accept someone who got released off the army because of mental illness).

What's your opinion?

[Jesus Christ]

you gotta do what you gotta do

but Im pretty sure that almost everyone here would not join the Israeli Army
instead of faking sick or something, just get out of the country while you can
but ya know, faking sick can work

i see no reason why a communist anti-zionist wouldnt resist joining

[timbaly]

What if you claimed to be gay?

Break a finger and don't get treatment so it will be permanently stationary, try a pinky since it is least useful.

Leave Israel completely.

Fake mental illness now and leave the country later.

[il Commie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 02:33 AM
What if you claimed to be gay?

Break a finger and don't get treatment so it will be permanently stationary, try a pinky since it is least useful.

Leave Israel completely.

Fake mental illness now and leave the country later.
"What if you claimed to be gay?"
They don't care.

"Break a finger and don't get treatment so it will be permanently stationary, try a pinky since it is least useful."
An original idea, but I do like my fingers.

"Leave Israel completely."
I'm trying to help Israel, not run away from it.

"Fake mental illness now and leave the country later."
Maybe, if I do this and I can't find a job. I will soon have a polish citizenship (because of my grandfather) but I do want to stay in Israel.


My real dilema is wether to refuse joining the army or join the army or refuse serving in the occupied territories.

[Ian]

Become a refusenik, I knew a guy once when I was a chatroom regular who was a refusenik and he said it was the best decision he made (anyone from #marxchat remember Zeh?), he spent a month in a military prison which he said wasn't that bad.

I hope you refuse comrade. It's for the best.

[Saint-Just]

You could become a suicide bomber. Be careful is good advice whatever you choose.

[il Commie]

"I hope you refuse comrade. It's for the best."
I'm gonna refuse I think, but my dilema is between being a "political refusenik" (who is a soldier reufsing to serve in the occupied territories) or a "conciess refusenik" (a person refusing to becom a soldier).


" You could become a suicide bomber."
That could be quite exciting, but I think not ;)

[suffianr]

If you can't avoid it, then try optioning for a service that does not involve shooting people, like serving in a mess hall or clerk duty or something. Go for training, but volunteer for a non-combatant post, if that's your only choice.

Worst Case Scenario: As long as you're not out there on the streets with a gun in your hands.

Good Luck, comrade. Don't end up as an aggressor.

[BuyOurEverything]

I'd become a political refusnik. I think it would give more credibility to the movement. People would view you as someone who genuinely is disgusted with the policy of the Israeli government and not as just some pacifist, hippy or coward.

[Che PFLP]

you can come and live with me , i live in east jerusalem , i can find to you a good job ..

you must say No .. and do it .. i know many soldier in the Israeli prisons just for saying No , you must be one of them .. don`t be afraid from prisons if you believe in your idea.

:)

[Ian]

Be a refusenik, it's up to you to what type though :)

Of course you could go and live with Che PFLP :D

[il Commie]

Originally posted by Che [email protected] 15 2003, 11:18 PM
you can come and live with me , i live in east jerusalem , i can find to you a good job ..

you must say No .. and do it .. i know many soldier in the Israeli prisons just for saying No , you must be one of them .. don`t be afraid from prisons if you believe in your idea.

:)
Thank you very much for the offer, I'll consider that ;)


I'm gonna say "No", I just wanted to consult with people on this board which "No" to say...

[RED CHARO]

Leave Israel.......
seriously
You don't want to join there fight.....

[il Commie]

Originally posted by RED [email protected] 16 2003, 01:09 PM
Leave Israel.......
seriously
You don't want to join there fight.....
To that logic, if I was a USA citizen opposing Iraq war I should leave the country? And if I'm a citizen of a western Europe country, simply opposing Capitalism, I should leave my country too? And if I'm an iranian citizen opposing islam I should immigrant to another country?

Don't you think there are political fights worth fighting for your country on it's character?

[redstar2000]

Don't you think there are political fights worth fighting for your country on it's character?

Tough question.

How much is one subject to the feeling of "my" country? How much should one be?

Can countries be said to have a "character"? How would it be defined in a rational way?

What are the realistic chances of changes in the direction that you want to go? Are they better or worse than in other countries?

There's no question that moving to another country is a really difficult thing to do as a practical matter. Even if you are already fluent in the language, you will still have to master a large amount of trivia that everyone else around you already knows...how to find a decent job, how to get around on public transit, where the cheap apartments are, where to shop and what these strange foods are, etc. You will probably live in very impoverished circumstances for several years, unless you have highly desirable job skills.

I just read a piece this morning that said about 200,000 young educated Iranians leave that country for Europe every year. They are sick of the ayatollahs and see no chance of getting rid of those turds in the foreseeable future.

So people can do that...it's not an impossible solution. I don't know if you want to go to Poland though...my impression is that there is still a lot of unofficial anti-semitism there.(!) On the other hand, Polish citizenship will get you into western Europe fairly easily when Poland becomes a member of the EU (next year?).

With regard to your specific dilemma, I am curious about several things. Does the Israeli military ever exclude people from the draft on specific political grounds? That is, if you told them flat out that after induction, your plan was to organize within the military to encourage soldiers to refuse occupation duty, would they still draft you?

In the American military (while conscription still existed), it was policy not to draft potential "troublemakers" (like me...that's how I beat the draft). Does Israel have a similar policy?

What if you were a member of some "infamous" pro-Arab group? Or the Israeli Communist Party? You see what I'm getting at.

What are other young Israelis facing this problem doing? Is there any kind of organization there specifically focused around the issue of military conscription, helping people avoid the draft with minimal or no negative consequences.

I don't know if this has been very helpful...you are in (or will be in) a pretty grim situation and none of the alternatives may be very good.

But it's great that you are trying to figure out "the right thing to do"...right now, very few people do that.

Best wishes...

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[il Commie]

Well Redstar, I can leave the country - but I don't want to. I love the israeli people and the palestinian people, and how could it be helpful to runaway? How could I reduce the misery the occupation is causing the palestinians and the israelis by immigrating to a different state?

Besides, I'm tired of this "immigrating jew" sh*t. Every time things got rough somewhere, my family (with all the jewish community) packed their belongings and left. I don't want to be like that, I love this country (the people and the land) and I want to stay here. Things are tough everywhere, someday I would have to face it, than why no in Israel?
Maybe I'll go to Europe for academic studies, but not more than that.


As for saying I oppose Zionism/support the palestinian struggle/a member of the ICP (which are all true), the IDF is apperantly worser than the american army. They'll put me on military trial and sentence me to jail, like they did to other people. The only reason they don't take people is because of physical/mental illness.

Bodies which supports refuseniks? The orgainiztions "Courage to Refuse" and "There's a Limit" are meant for that, the first only supports zionist refuseniks and the second supports all refuseniks. I will contact "There's a Limit" soon, on their web-site they say they get young refuseniks to meet with older refuseniks, to share their experience from military prison (which they say is not that terrible). That could be helpful.
A party supporting the refuseniks? Hadash (Democratic Front lead by ICP) is the most involved, Balad (arab national-democrats) and Ra'am (islamic movement) supports too. Dov Hanin, a member of ICP leadership, is actually the lawyer of the refuseniks (he volunteered for free).

[Don't Change Your Name]

Join other comrades in your same situation and start a revolt.

Or you will become a murderer jewish target for some brainwashed angry muslim carrying an explosive in his backpack.

I reccomend you to refuse joining the army, althought it will possibly bring you trouble.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I would refuse to serve at all... I am not sure what the alternatives are, but I would investigate them very seriously. I hate to think that you would ever be used to kill or maim Palestinians... or be killed...

[suffianr]

Or you will become a murderer jewish target for some brainwashed angry muslim carrying an explosive in his backpack.

Brainwashed angry Muslim? Oh, so that's what they're calling Palestinians these days...

Oh for fuck's sake, how insensitive can you get? :angry: