Franjo Tuđman and the HDZ

[The Young Pioneer]

More questions, hope I've not annoyed/tired anyone yet! I know they're still pretty shallow, I'm just not sure I trust some of my "sources"...(i.e. Nationalist friends) and I haven't covered all the basics yet:

-It was mentioned in another thread that HDZ is similar to United Russia...in what ways? I'm familiar with Russian politics but know very little about HDZ.

-Is the HDZ fascist? Does it have fascism in its history?

-What relations did Tuđman have with Milošević? This seems complicated.

-Tuđman's brother and father were imprisoned in concentration camps by the Ustaše, and Franjo himself was later arrested by them. What is the foundation for the argument that Tuđman became pro-Ustaše over time? What is this about him destroying anti-fascist memorials?

-Is there a place I could hear/read the recordings/transcripts that were released by Stjepan Mesić? What is the extent of Tuđman's war crimes?

-Lastly, is there a place online I can view the results of yesterday's elections? I'm aware of the overall "result" but would like to see actual numbers. I can't speak much Croatian so if there's an English resource I'd appreciate it.

Thanks as always.

-YP Liza

[Omsk]

HDZ is Croatian ultra nationalist.
Tudjman/Milosevic is very complicated and I doubt you can find a good answer.
He was a Croatian nationalist and warmonger,but Croatian ustashe supported him.
Tudjman is responsible for the war crimes in RSK and ethnic cleansing.Along with Gotovina and other war criminals.

[Red Rosa]

More questions, hope I've not annoyed/tired anyone yet! I know they're still pretty shallow, I'm just not sure I trust some of my "sources"...(i.e. Nationalist friends) and I haven't covered all the basics yet:

-It was mentioned in another thread that HDZ is similar to United Russia...in what ways? I'm familiar with Russian politics but know very little about HDZ.

-Is the HDZ fascist? Does it have fascism in its history?

-What relations did Tuđman have with Milošević? This seems complicated.

-Tuđman's brother and father were imprisoned in concentration camps by the Ustaše, and Franjo himself was later arrested by them. What is the foundation for the argument that Tuđman became pro-Ustaše over time? What is this about him destroying anti-fascist memorials?

-Is there a place I could hear/read the recordings/transcripts that were released by Stjepan Mesić? What is the extent of Tuđman's war crimes?

-Lastly, is there a place online I can view the results of yesterday's elections? I'm aware of the overall "result" but would like to see actual numbers. I can't speak much Croatian so if there's an English resource I'd appreciate it.

Thanks as always.

-YP Liza

Tuđman revived NDH "affection", in lack of other word, but he also never gave up his respect for Tito (he held his picture on his desk till the day he died). That was part of his confused personality. Tuđman threw himself into partisan movement right away and became a fanatic stalinist, really fanatic. When he worked in Belgrade in People's Liberation Army and Partisan Detachments of Yugoslavia he wrote an article, something about People's liberation front's emphasis on the yugoslavian proletariat, I am not sure, anyway, he got in the fight with people he worked with and that's what turned him into nationalist, not the killings of his father and brother, I don't know where you got this information from, but as far as I know, causes of their death are unknown (although there are speculations, of course). Well, he was a weird man. Admired NDH as well as Tito and partisans. Didn't want to change the name of the square in Zagreb called "Sqare of marshal Tito" (some people wanted to change it) and yet advocated state capitalism. He was, however, against neoliberal capitalism, he claimed that multinational corporations will tear apart such small country like Croatia, but he introduced capitalism to our country. Later HDZ members were more than happy to privatize almost everything, so now we have neoliberal capitalism raging here.
So, as I said, HDZ was flerting with NDH but it wasn't a fascist party as such. HDZ was confused party, like Tuđman was. I would say today HDZ is right liberal party (not far right). But, Tuđman is to be blamed for NDh revival.
To conclude - he respected and loved Tito but was a nationalist, he appreciated (and participated in) partisan movement but still glorified Ustashes, he spoke well about communism (although he didn't understand it, I think he didn't understand a lot of things) and yet advocated capitalism. Weird, contradictory, vain man.
Tuđman is responsible for crimes Bosnia. The military operation "Oluja" (which was under his command) was a legitimate operation to free Croats from Serbian occupation but afterwards there were innocent Serbian civilians killed.
As for his relationship with Milošević, I don't know what to say except that Tuđman wanted to negotiate with Milošević, he didn't want to get into war at first. Milošević was negotiating with Tuđman but still planned to attack Croatia which he did, as you know.

Haha, I can't post links yet, because i'm still a baby at this forum :) but you can google "Croatian parliamentary elections 2011 results" and you will find wikipedia's article. It is accurate.

[The Young Pioneer]

When he worked in Belgrade in People's Liberation Army and Partisan Detachments of Yugoslavia he wrote an article, something about People's liberation front's emphasis on the yugoslavian proletariat, I am not sure, anyway, he got in the fight with people he worked with and that's what turned him into nationalist, not the killings of his father and brother, I don't know where you got this information from, but as far as I know, causes of their death are unknown (although there are speculations, of course).

Oh sorry, I didn't mean they were killed, let me rephrase. Father Stjepan was arrested by Ustaše and brother imprisoned in Ustaše camps; though neither died as a result (Tuđman: Prva politička biografija by Sadkovich).

I was under the impression his father died either of suicide or some conspiracy with police, while another of his brothers was killed by German Nazis.

Thank you both for your information. :)

[Yugo45]

About the Tuđman-Milošević relationship..

They had some deals, like to divide Bosnia. Part of it would go to Croatia, the rest to Serbia. But it was way more complicated then that.

Don't worry though, Balkan is the ultimate clusterfuck of clusterfucks. You can literally never understand all of it ;)

[The Young Pioneer]

Don't worry though, Balkan is the ultimate clusterfuck of clusterfucks. You can literally never understand all of it ;)

Sound advice, comrade! I heartily agree, but still wish to know more. :o

[Omsk]

legitimate operation to free Croats from Serbian occupation


Khm khm.


Well, he was a weird man.
You should not call a war criminal,a ultra nationalist and a man responsible for a huge amount of atrocities just: A wierd man.
Its simply wrong.



Tuđman is responsible for crimes Bosnia

And for war crimes in Croatia,against the Serbian population.



Tuđman revived NDH "affection"


The fascist state influenced him a lot,he wanted its borders after all,or at least a Croatian part of Bosnia.


HDZ was confused party
They were Croatian nationalists and they were not confused,they knew what they were doing.Like everyone else in that period.



Sound advice, comrade! I heartily agree, but still wish to know more.


The less you know about that period,the better,as you read more and more you will just get more confused.The war is not something that just popped up in the 90' the entire region has a complicated and bloody history.Send me a message if you wish for some literature.

[Искра]

The fascist state influenced him a lot,he wanted its borders after all,or at least a Croatian part of Bosnia.
Tudjman didn't want Croatia in borders of Independent State of Croatia. That was project of Croatian Rights Party and their fascist paramilitary forces HOS. Tudjman is, according to them, responsible for murder of their most important members Ante Paradžik and Blaž Kraljević.

Tudjman wanted "only" to take part from Bosnia, which you mentioned.

Regarding fascism in HDZ, Tudjman turned blind eye on that, even he was personaly against fascism. He did that because it was politicaly useful for him as fascism is just a form of nationalism which can be useful in war etc.

There's interesting video of him talking about Tito, where he actually talks in favour of Tito, which "ordinary" fascist would never do:
wDlSJixGzh4

But then again this video is full of classical Croatian nationalist bollocks :D

Anyhow, I'm not trying to defend Tudjman, but just to make some things clear. He was after all Croatian nationalist and he is responsible for ethnical cleansing of Serbs etc.

[Red Rosa]

Oh sorry, I didn't mean they were killed, let me rephrase. Father Stjepan was arrested by Ustaše and brother imprisoned in Ustaše camps; though neither died as a result (Tuđman: Prva politička biografija by Sadkovich).

I was under the impression his father died either of suicide or some conspiracy with police, while another of his brothers was killed by German Nazis.

Thank you both for your information. :)
I got it wrong then. :) You're welcome. :)