Abortion myths....

[RadioRaheem84]

Just finished a heated discussion with the family about women's choice and one of the topics was abortion safety. Apparently, they believe the myth that abortions are really unsafe and could cost the woman her life. Now I've only passively read that they're safe when performed by a skilled doctor, but what are the real facts, statistics and whatnot so I know to come in there next time with hard info.

[9]

This (http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/safety_of_abortion.html) might be useful

[RadioRaheem84]

Statistically, it's safer than childbirth?!!

Now that is a fact I didn't know.

I am really confused as to how these facts are not readily known to the majority of the population. Just how the hell do anti-abortion, anti-choice people get away with such disinformation?

[Zostrianos]

I read more than once that giving birth itself is more dangerous than abortion (which accounts for the high mortality rates from pregnancy in developing countries, and in the West until the 20th century). Maybe you could tell them that :cool:

[RadioRaheem84]

With 2 million abortions performed each year and less than one percent having complications, the procedure seems like it's a simple routine. For sure it's safer than pregnancy. I mean the lifers make it seem like it's still the days of Vera Drake and legal abortions kill hundreds of women a year.

I am pro-choice and I had no idea how routine it really is. I was under the impression that it was a woman's choice to undergo a heavily risky procedure that could cost her dearly!

[Zostrianos]

Also, keep in mind that a lot (if not most) of the people who oppose abortion also preach that condoms don't protect against STD's, and other similar bullshit.

[RadioRaheem84]

I'm confused as to what the payoff is for them to be so anti science?

[Zostrianos]

They're usually religious fundamentalists, and they think that if science contradicts the Bible, then science is obviously wrong. There's more and more kids in the US Bible belt who are being homeschooled (q.v. Jesus Camp), because their parents don't want them to be exposed to the evil "Darwinist Evolutionist" lies they will learn in public school :rolleyes:, or to sex ed classes that might teach them that contraceptives prevent STD's....

[Zostrianos]

Here you go:
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[RadioRaheem84]

But the supposed science they have to back up their claims. Where do they get it? Why are their doctors willing to lie?

[RadioRaheem84]

Here you go:
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I know about the fundies. I am talking about the supposed experts and scientists.

[Zostrianos]

That I don't know, but most "scientists" who back up their claims have no real scientific degrees. And when you look at their arguments, they persistently reject scientific evidence and try to spin it their own way. It's useless trying to reason with them, it's like talking to a wall. Here's a hilarious video that sums up creationist arguments:
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[eyedrop]

The US has quite high abortion rates doesn't it? So basically everyone should know someone who has had an abortion and can tell what 'non-complicated' procedure it was? I know I know quite a few. Which should counter the claims that abortion is a dangerous procedure.

Or is part of the problem, that women who have had an abortion, are keeping it secret because of the societal pressure?

Their campaign of misinformation is certainly successful if people generally think abortion is dangerous compared to the mess that a birth is.

Their reason for spreading such myths is that they want sex to have consequences to keep frivolous sex down to a minimum.

[Zostrianos]

Apparently the highest unwanted teen pregnancies and abortions are in the South. Texas has the 3rd highest teen pregnancy rate, and not surprisingly is a stronghold of the "anti-contraception\ abstinence only" policy. Rick Perry was actually confronted on TV about this, and got owned on his "abstinence works" rhetoric. It's hilarious:


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[Jimmie Higgins]

I'm confused as to what the payoff is for them to be so anti science?It's ideological dissonance, they are convinced of this moral evil and will find the arguments to back up their moral belief. For the anti-abortion true-believers it's connected to a whole concept of the bourgeois nuclear family and personal responsibility. These ideas came as a reaction to women's lib and how do you make an appealing argument as to why 50% of the population should not have the ability to make their own living irregardless of their family situation etc... well, you get people to "think about the innocent unborn children! Why will no one think of the unborn children?!" Their view is that women's only fundamental role in society is raising and caring for children/the only function of sex is reproduction so even for moderate anti-abortionists it's ok to have a job, girls, but if you are irresponsible and get pregnant, then you have to drop everything else and do your real job.

So it's basically a moral crusade counterposed to women's rights and sections of the ruling class back it in part to have social forces and a voting base to promote other issues and in general it reinforces ideas about personal responsibility and scapegoating the poor for "bad choices" - all vital bourgeois arguments for the ruling class through the neo-liberal era of backlash by the ruling class.

[RadioRaheem84]

Even from the liberal standpoint the image is that of a woman making the harrowing choice to face death in order to protect her civil liberties. Why don't they get the word out that it's really a simple routine procedure?

[Blake's Baby]

Because it isn't.

IF you have access to decent counselling about what is going to happen, and decent medical care, it is relatively straightforward from a clinical point of view; but even then a proprtion of women have psychological issues which manifest themselves later, Hardly surprising really.

If these aren't available it can be extremely risky. Back-street abortions kill women, simple as. Of course, this means they should be legal and scrutinised not forced into cladestinity, but tell that to a fundie.

Also, an 'easy procedure' on the one hand that 'murders children' on the other would be a public relations nightmare. Liberals are much happier claiming that everyone having an abortion must be treated as a victim and therefore their actions are beyond question. It's harder for the Liberals to say that it's a woman's body and therefore it's her choice, because the Right finds that difficult to swallow. Victimhood, that's harder to argue against.

[Caj]

Abortion, when induced in the developed world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developed_country) in accordance with local law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law), is among the safest procedures in medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#Safety).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#cite_note-lancet-grimes-1)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion

Hope that helps.

[RadioRaheem84]

Because it isn't.

Well I mean a safe legal abortion in the developed world.

[Jimmie Higgins]

IF you have access to decent counselling about what is going to happen, and decent medical care, it is relatively straightforward from a clinical point of view; but even then a proprtion of women have psychological issues which manifest themselves later, Hardly surprising really.In the past it was normal to just dump unwanted babies after they were born. I think the whole thing is stressful - even giving birth without considering abortion is hella stressful and people should have free counseling and other material support as well. But I think part of the stress women have to face when making this decision about comes from all the social pressure where the right calls them murderers and going against what women's natural inclinations and nature is supposed to be according to them while liberals argue that abortion should be protected but is "tragic" and "extreme" and only defend it when rape is involved or other awful circumstances, not when someone just doesn't want or can't afford a child. The anti-abortionists know this and that's why they picket outside of clinics and harass women going in no matter what kind of care or procedure they are coming in for. It's moral terrorism/intimidation and they know it - and when the moral terrorism isn't enough they resort to physical terrorism.intimidation.

In addition a lot of the "support" mandated in the US right now isn't "what do you want to do, we'll help you through" - a lot of the so-called support and counseling reinforces the idea that women are somehow doing something wrong. They check to make sure your family knows and councilors are told to offer all sorts of other options short of abortion and ask the patient if they are "really sure"... and then if they are "sure they're sure" after that.

Defensiveness on this issue allows the right to put their foot in the door IMO. When Hilary Clinton says "abortion is a tragic choice some women have to face" the idea that it is morally wrong is reinforced. I think we need to talk about abortion as a issue of women having control over their own lives the same as men as well as a health-care issue. Part of the argument for having control over our own lives should include contraception and abortion rights as well as free childcare and other support for workers of both sexes who do want to have children but have to work full-time.

[Zostrianos]

What I hate most about anti-abortionists is that they're the worst kind of hypocrites: they preach about the "sanctity of human life", while also fully supporting America's wars and the killing of innocents overseas by US troops.
George Carlin did a brilliant piece on abortion and those who oppose it:

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"If you're pre-born you're fine, if you're preschool you're fucked!...Conservatives don't give a shit about you until you reach military age....Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers" :laugh:

[Blake's Baby]

Well I mean a safe legal abortion in the developed world.

In which case, yup, that's pretty safe.


... I think part of the stress women have to face when making this decision about comes from all the social pressure where the right calls them murderers and going against what women's natural inclinations and nature is supposed to be ... It's moral terrorism/intimidation and they know it - and when the moral terrorism isn't enough they resort to physical terrorism/intimidation.

In addition a lot of the "support" mandated in the US right now isn't "what do you want to do, we'll help you through" - a lot of the so-called support and counseling reinforces the idea that women are somehow doing something wrong. They check to make sure your family knows and councilors are told to offer all sorts of other options short of abortion and ask the patient if they are "really sure"... and then if they are "sure they're sure" after that.

Defensiveness on this issue allows the right to put their foot in the door IMO. When Hilary Clinton says "abortion is a tragic choice some women have to face" the idea that it is morally wrong is reinforced. I think we need to talk about abortion as a issue of women having control over their own lives the same as men as well as a health-care issue. Part of the argument for having control over our own lives should include contraception and abortion rights as well as free childcare and other support for workers of both sexes who do want to have children but have to work full-time.

Yeah, I agree with all of that. I suppose I should have said that portraying all women who are having an abortion as 'tragic' and 'victims' the liberals kinda deflect one argument, that these women 'behave in this morally reprehensible fashion' through choice, and instead 'behave in this morally reprehensible fashion' through necessity. Without challenging the idea that's morally reprehensible.

[Blake's Baby]

Sorry, double post thing going on.

[OHumanista]

In my country I can easily see the effects of anti-abortion laws. (it's only legal here in case of a rape) Forced to abort illegaly many women have health issues following the procedures and many deaths are caused by that.
If it was legal and done in modern clinics there would be no such problem.