Bordiga

[socialistjustin]

I'm gonna reveal my ignorance here and ask what Bordiga's contribution was to left communism? I keep seeing jokes like being a "closet Bordigist" or stuff referring to Satan so it can't be good.

If he's worth a read then what work would you guys recommend?

[Broletariat]

The Democratic Principle
Auschwitz The Great Alibi (ignore the intro on MIA so hard)

Bordiga was basically just an extension of Marx.

[Savage]

or stuff referring to Satan so it can't be good.

This is just referring to the Bordigist black metal group Dimmu Bordiga, I believe.

[Искра]

If he's worth a read then what work would you guys recommend?http://theoryandpractice.org.uk/library/fundamentals-revolutionary-communism-part-1-amadeo-bordiga-1957

This is part 1 and you have part 2 and 3 links at the bottom of article. If you print it it's like 43 a4 pages. Really good article(?). One of the best I've ever read.

[socialistjustin]

This is just referring to the Bordigist black metal group Dimmu Bordiga, I believe.

If that's the case then I feel like such an idiot LOL.should've put 2 and 2 together.

[Искра]

If that's the case then I feel like such an idiot LOL.should've put 2 and 2 together.
rZpvRzn9Oxc

[Искра]

Also, this is quite cool interview if you are interested in Bordiga.

6zEW-QC7M4A
bN7hfA3KsmU

[Broletariat]

FvNb0x5muno

[ZeroNowhere]

...I think I may have given you a distorted impression of Bordigism.

In any case, I'm not sure that Bordiga 'added' much of novelty in theoretical terms. Generally speaking, what's novel about him is his reformulations, so to speak; for example, reiterating points made by Marx and such in response to more modern trends, currents, theories and so on, as well as the fact that people who like him generally do so just as much for his way of saying things, which is often highly confrontational and attempts no compromise with opponents' sensibilities, as for the actual content of his works. He was also probably one of the most theoretically knowledgeable of major 20th Century Marxist figures, on matters ranging from economics to historical analysis, which tends to get him some favour, and makes him stand out a fair bit in terms of 20th Century Marxism.

Some of his major points involved the rejection of the 'democratic principle', the idea that democracy was to be taken as a principle placed above working class interests rather than simply as a form of organization, and the promotion of the party as necessary and immanent within the class itself as against various forms of syndicalism and so on. However, he wrote on quite a few issues, and the previous are simply the ones which have become best known over history, mainly due to being either controversial or misrepresented.


(ignore the intro on MIA so hard)I would like to reiterate this.


or stuff referring to Satan so it can't be good.iql6oh90IXE
Come, come, into my Party!

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Bordiga was basically just an extension of Marx.

That's very, very arguable.

[Broletariat]

That's very, very arguable.

Lets do it bro

[black magick hustla]

be careful with boridga, a lot of the early stuff is really good but then he degenerated into weirdoness. i think another good "bordigist" that had a lot of really good early stuff was cammatte. In my opinion bordiga's theoretical input is the most important and sophisticated of the "ultraleft", because some of the more "councilist" tendencies were infected with democratism. i think the theoretical backbone behind bordiga's thought was the idea of form vs content. democracy being a form that could either carry the content of communism or counterrevolution.

[Искра]

Articles by Orlando Damen are aslo verry good.
http://www.leftcom.org/en/people/onorato-damen

I just started to read them.

[Susurrus]

What was his critique of syndicalism based on?

[Искра]

What was his critique of syndicalism based on?
Sorel and anarcho-syndicalism. Check the link I posted in my first post here. Part 2 is war against anachism and anarcho-syndicalism.

[HEAD ICE]

Also, this is quite cool interview if you are interested in Bordiga.

6zEW-QC7M4A
bN7hfA3KsmU

hmm i wonder who translated and uploaded those videos :cool:

[HEAD ICE]

Articles by Orlando Damen are aslo verry good.
http://www.leftcom.org/en/people/onorato-damen

I just started to read them.

lol

Onorato Damen's obituary of Amadeo Bordiga is a good overview of the contributions and limitations of Bordiga. In fact, Damen wrote a whole book critical of Bordiga (as well as Gramsci, he made two major critical analyses of the two "heads" of Italian communism) that is presently being translated.

[Susurrus]

lol

Onorato Damen's obituary of Amadeo Bordiga is a good overview of the contributions and limitations of Bordiga. In fact, Damen wrote a whole book critical of Bordiga (as well as Gramsci, he made two major critical analyses of the two "heads" of Italian communism) that is presently being translated.

What was he critical of?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Lets do it bro

Since you're the one that made the assertion, the onus would be on you. Bro.

[Le Rouge]

Bordiga -> Dimmu Bordiga --> Dimmu Borgir!!!!

eAmMcBQavKE

Edit : Song start at about 59 sec.

[HEAD ICE]

sorry meant to post the link

http://www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2011-01-21/amadeo-bordiga-beyond-the-myth-and-the-rhetoric-0

[Kadir Ateş]

Bordiga's contribution to Marxian theory is numerous, and while I have some fondness for the comrade, he does have some flawed notions.

For one, he has a very hyper-(vulgar) materialistic account of the category of the individual, for example and (alleged) account of the Holocaust. My guess is that it is due more to his training as an engineer.

He also had a fairly one-sided understanding of democracy, assuming it only limited to the bourgeois sense of the word and rejected any possibility of its rehabilitation within socialism.

Not only that, but his view of the party seems to be more Leninist than Lenin.

Yet in spite of what I see as his flaws (or perhaps misunderstandings) he provides the best example of what good Marxist writing should be: sharp, biting and at times down-right offensive. He also contribute greatly to understanding the return of capitalism to Russia under Stalinism through his work on the agrarian question. There is more, but I'm tired and I'll let others have their say.

[Die Neue Zeit]

One man's "sharp, biting, and at times downright offensive" can be another man's "troll" or "annoying poster." :glare:

[Savage]

He also had a fairly one-sided understanding of democracy, assuming it only limited to the bourgeois sense of the word and rejected any possibility of its rehabilitation within socialism.

He recognized that democratic organization could be subject to class power, but he denied upholding democracy as an eternal principle, external to class interest,


''The democratic criterion has been for us so far a material and incidental factor in the construction of our internal organisation and the formulation of our party statutes; it is not an indispensable platform for them. Therefore we will not raise the organisational formula known as «democratic centralism» to the level of a principle. Democracy cannot be a principle for us.''

He did not uphold an anti-democratic principle, which seems to be a popular misconception.


Not only that, but his view of the party seems to be more Leninist than Lenin.I’m not entirely sure what is meant by this, but he certainly didn’t advocate a voluntaristic concept of the party which is what I have seen him accused of.


be careful with boridga, a lot of the early stuff is really good but then he degenerated into weirdoness. i think another good "bordigist" that had a lot of really good early stuff was cammatte.

I think Camatte epitomizes degeneration into weirdoness.


hmm i wonder who translated and uploaded those videos

Thanks for doing that.

[ZeroNowhere]

One man's "sharp, biting, and at times downright offensive" can be another man's "troll" or "annoying poster." :glare:
Now, now, not every thread is about you, DNZ.


Bordiga -> Dimmu Bordiga --> Dimmu Borgir!!!!
How long did it take you to figure that one out?


Not only that, but his view of the party seems to be more Leninist than Lenin.
To be honest, I think that 'Leninism' is nebulous at best, and this kind of accusation generally seems to be based upon arguments about 'authoritarianism' and such. Bordiga had some commonalities with Lenin, and some dissimilarities, I don't think there's a continuum.

[Savage]

What was he critical of?

One interesting point was on the national question, where most modern people identifying as ‘left communist’ (including me) would tend to side with Damen against Bordiga. It is however important to emphasise that Bordiga didn’t uphold the principle of ‘the rights of nations to self-determination’, but saw national liberation as something that remained revolutionary in some situations on the basis of practicality,

‘’To elevate the struggle of the national minorities, per se to the level of a matter of principle is therefore to distort the communist conception, since altogether different criteria are required to discern whether such struggles offer revolutionary possibilities or reactionary developments.’’

His position was actually fairly similar to that of the Bosh-Bukharin-Pyatakov Theses which was discussed on revleft here (http:///www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=4576).

I don’t know much about his writing on the national question (it certainly doesn’t take up much space amongst his most well known works), but his most prominent work on the subject as far as I know was this on the Balkan war (http://www.sinistra.net/lib/upt/comlef/cote/cotesdadae.html), in which he does not consider the ‘national liberation’ struggle to be revolutionary.

[Tim Finnegan]

Bordiga was basically just an extension of Marx.
Why does that remind me of the "I'm not a baby, I'm a tumor" bit from Hellboy 2?

[Die Neue Zeit]

Now, now, not every thread is about you, DNZ.

I think Stalin perceived Bordiga to be a "troll" in his day, enough to have his own sympathizers maneuver around within the PCI to give him the boot despite Bordiga's own submission to party discipline.

[Aurora]

Some of his major points involved the rejection of the 'democratic principle', the idea that democracy was to be taken as a principle placed above working class interests rather than simply as a form of organization
Which is a reiteration as you said right? the Bolsheviks thought it necessary to curtail soviet democracy when it acted against working class interests as in the case of white dominated soviets, which is a pragmatic rather than fetishistic view of democracy. Just as Trotsky recognized that Russia was still a workers state without democratic soviets. The content remained but the form changed.

I'm not sure i understand Organic Centralism very well, is it correct to say that Bordiga thinks that whether the party is democratic or not the best members will rise to the top? no doubt that's simplistic.

[Manic Impressive]

I think Stalin perceived Bordiga to be a "troll" in his day, enough to have his own sympathizers maneuver around within the PCI to give him the boot despite Bordiga's own submission to party discipline.
didn't he ask Stalin to transfer control of the soviet union over to the international or something?

It's just a shame he didn't ask him to transfer power over to the proletariat

[S.Artesian]

Hilarious. DNZ referring to Bordiga as a troll, and using the domination of the 3rd International and parties affiliated with it by the Russian CP as proof thereof.

Can't make this up.

Here's what Bordiga did: He identified Stalin as the "gravedigger of the revolution" to Stalin's face, and in front of others. For that alone he deserves a place of honor in the history of class struggle. Not to mention a tip of the hat for having more guts, apparently, than almost anybody else.

[Susurrus]

Yet in spite of what I see as his flaws (or perhaps misunderstandings) he provides the best example of what good Marxist writing should be: sharp, biting and at times down-right offensive.

No offense, but this is rather ridiculous to associate a certain style of writing with political content. It's like saying that Slavoj Zizek provides the best example of what Marxist facial hair should be. Any style of writing could be Marxist, provided it contains Marxist ideas.

[Искра]

It's not ridicoulous, because today "Marxists" write like polite liberals.

[ZeroNowhere]

No offense, but this is rather ridiculous to associate a certain style of writing with political content. It's like saying that Slavoj Zizek provides the best example of what Marxist facial hair should be. Any style of writing could be Marxist, provided it contains Marxist ideas.
I'm not sure what you think you're responding to.

[Susurrus]

It's not ridicoulous, because today "Marxists" write like polite liberals.

So unless something is inflammatory and abrasive, it's not marxist?

[Искра]

So unless something is inflammatory and abrasive, it's not marxist?Oh, jeezzzz... what a vanilla liberal.

People like to read Marx's text on for example Proudhon, because he was funny and harsh. He didn't take any bullshit and he didn't have anyproblem with saying that crap is crap. Today "Marxists" tend to apologize all the time and write in liberal academic way with their huge post-modernist vocabulary. Fuck that shit.

[Susurrus]

Oh, jeezzzz... what a vanilla liberal.

People like to read Marx's text on for example Proudhon, because he was funny and harsh. He didn't take any bullshit and he didn't have anyproblem with saying that crap is crap. Today "Marxists" tend to apologize all the time and write in liberal academic way with their huge post-modernist vocabulary. Fuck that shit.

There's a difference between what you're describing and what I'm saying. If one is speaking of certain things in a certain way, it's not the way that characterizes something as Marxist, it's the things.

[Искра]

Marxism is political ideology not a writing stlye. I don't see how could you get such an idea.

[ZeroNowhere]

You are not a real Marxist unless you use the word 'verily' thrice in every paragraph.

[Susurrus]

Marxism is political ideology not a writing stlye. I don't see how could you get such an idea.

That is quite literally what I am trying to say.

[Искра]

You are not a real Marxist unless you use the word 'verily' thrice in every paragraph.
Or if you don't use commodity all the time even when you don't know what does commodity have to do with what you are saying :D

[ZeroNowhere]

Or if you don't use commodity all the time even when you don't know what does commodity have to do with what you are saying :D
'To be, or not to be a commodity?
Verily, that is truly a difficult question;
Whether 'tis nobler in the price to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
(Fortune is another word for money, which is
Verily the universal commodity), or
To take the state against a sea of troubles
And by totalitarian rule oppress them?
To rule, to sweep
The remnants of bourgeois society down chimneys
Of endless toil; but, verily, there's the rub,
For in that infernal commodity
What dreams should come? Perhaps
We shall succumb to the democratic principle;
This must give us pause.'

[HEAD ICE]

My affinity with Bordiga probably mostly has to do with his "in-your-face" writing style. It is always smirk enducing when Bordiga lets the "... is a/amounts to a complete repudiation of the fundamental principles of Marxism" bomb drop when describing things.

Auschwitz, the Great Alibi is probably his most controversial text, and I agree with the conclusions came to in the thread that his description of the causes for the Holocaust is very mechanistic and doesn't include the power of ideology (god damn it that sounds so Gramsci). However I agree 100% with his conclusions of that article: that anti-fascism is the worst product of fascism, in that the democratic bourgeoisie and "communists" are able to rile workers up and have them die in vast numbers against the "menace of fascism." That the Holocaust was not some "aberration" of capitalism and that the horror dealt by bourgeois democracy far outstrips the crimes of fascism.

Bordiga's best article, in my opinion, and where he is at his best is Doctrine of the Body Possessed by the Devil:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/bordiga/works/1951/doctrine.htm

[socialistjustin]

You guys got any pdfs of his work? Reading webpages can be annoying if its too long.

[Искра]

You guys got any pdfs of his work? Reading webpages can be annoying if its too long.Print them. That's what I did.

[socialistjustin]

I can only do that when I go to the library. :(

[Ocean Seal]

I knew that posting Dimmu Bordiga as the first death metal Bordigist band would eventually cause problems.

[Savage]

I knew that posting Dimmu Bordiga as the first death* metal Bordigist band would eventually cause problems.

*black

[Искра]

Black Metal ist Krieg!!!!

[Die Neue Zeit]

didn't he ask Stalin to transfer control of the soviet union over to the international or something?

It's just a shame he didn't ask him to transfer power over to the proletariat

Indeed Bordiga did.



Hilarious. DNZ referring to Bordiga as a troll, and using the domination of the 3rd International and parties affiliated with it by the Russian CP as proof thereof.

Can't make this up.

You're twisting my words again, as usual. :rolleyes:

I said Stalin thought that Bordiga was a "troll." I didn't say I think such, and if actually read that whole sentence, you'll know I'm contrasting Bordiga's submission to party discipline (despite the right call on the regime but not the economy) with Trotsky's unapologetic adventurism in 1926-27.

[ZeroNowhere]

Black Metal ist Krieg!!!!
Black Metal ist Klassenkrieg.

[Искра]

Black Metal ist Klassenkrieg.
Metallica is PROLETOCRACY!

[Ocean Seal]

Oh, jeezzzz... what a vanilla liberal.

People like to read Marx's text on for example Proudhon, because he was funny and harsh. He didn't take any bullshit and he didn't have anyproblem with saying that crap is crap. Today "Marxists" tend to apologize all the time and write in liberal academic way with their huge post-modernist vocabulary. Fuck that shit.
Aside from the glorious troll that we had a couple of weeks ago who writes in a liberal academic way with a huge post-modernist vocabulary. If Marxist writing is so bad today, I might even start up a blog because apparently there isn't much competition.

[OHumanista]

Frankly I strongly disagree with almost everything the man said (and also think the "quality" of the ideas is terrible). Still I give him a reluctant respect for facing Stalin.

[A Marxist Historian]

Frankly I strongly disagree with almost everything the man said (and also think the "quality" of the ideas is terrible). Still I give him a reluctant respect for facing Stalin.

Yeah. One good thing about Bordiga is that whereas most of the folk who claim to be ultra-leftists are just reformists in disguise, Bordiga was the real thing.

An old friend of mine who actually read Bordiga's analysis of the Soviet Union in the original Italian told me that it could be summarized as according to Bordiga, the USSR under Stalin really was pure capitalism just like in Italy, but that the bureaucrats hid the stock market tickertape machines in the basement of the Kremlin so that the workers wouldn't find out.

-M.H.-

[Savage]

Metallica is PROLETOCRACY!

lou reed and dimmu bordiga

[ZeroNowhere]

lou reed and dimmu bordiga
I am the Caesarist!
I am the Kautskyan!
I'm the proletocrat!
I am the table!

[A Marxist Historian]

I am the Caesarist!
I am the Kautskyan!
I'm the proletocrat!
I am the table!

I am the walrus?
(Marxist-Lennonism)

-M.H.-

[Yazman]

*black

*warning!

I don't want to see any more spam posts or this topic is getting closed. There's been some good discussion in here and it's degenerated a bit. Let's get it back on track.

[newdayrising]

People often accuse Bordiga of being "mecanistic" (is that a word?), which is not totally untrue. However, that`s also his strength. Writings like The Legend of The Piave are amazing because of his strict and engineer-like materialist approach to pretty much everything, including non-obvious matters. This alone provided amazing insights and is great food for thought.
Regarding Auschwitz - The Great Alibi, I think the outrage is kind of fake and exaggerated. While it may take a part of the question for the whole of it, I don't think the central point is absurd, nor do I think the holocaust is beyond a materialist analysis. It's a good text if you use it with caution and along with other points of view.

[A Marxist Historian]

People often accuse Bordiga of being "mecanistic" (is that a word?), which is not totally untrue. However, that`s also his strength. Writings like The Legend of The Piave are amazing because of his strict and engineer-like materialist approach to pretty much everything, including non-obvious matters. This alone provided amazing insights and is great food for thought.
Regarding Auschwitz - The Great Alibi, I think the outrage is kind of fake and exaggerated. While it may take a part of the question for the whole of it, I don't think the central point is absurd, nor do I think the holocaust is beyond a materialist analysis. It's a good text if you use it with caution and along with other points of view.

Best Marxist analysis of the Holocaust is Arno Mayer's brilliant "Why Did The Heavens Not Darken"? Even though he got some basic facts wrong about it, which is why the book doesn't have the acclaim it deserves.

-M.H.-

[Искра]

http://www.reocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/3909/bordbuik.html

[Искра]

Also, this: http://home.earthlink.net/~lrgoldner/bordiga.html

[Savage]

I think it is worth reading this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2172213&postcount=11) post of Zanthorus when it comes to the above texts, as well as this (http://libcom.org/forums/theory/socialist-bourgeois-revolution-03052010?page=10) discussion from libcom.

[ZeroNowhere]

http://www.reocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/3909/bordbuik.html
Just keep in mind that that was written by the venerable author of this text (http://socialiststandardmyspace.blogspot.com/2006/02/more-lenin-or-less.html).

[black magick hustla]

People often accuse Bordiga of being "mecanistic" (is that a word?), which is not totally untrue. However, that`s also his strength. Writings like The Legend of The Piave are amazing because of his strict and engineer-like materialist approach to pretty much everything, including non-obvious matters. This alone provided amazing insights and is great food for thought.


i agree. i for one appreciate bordiga's theoretical pedantry, in as much that i think a lot of those who call themselves more theoretically flexible are actually more or less opportunists who attempt to sound more "relevant" by diluting the line. the more i dislike someone's politics the more he or she probably dislikes bordiga and/or considers me a rigid doctrinaire. maybe because i have a very strong background in mathematics and the physical sciences, but i appreciate theoretical pedantry much more than handwaving.

[Zanthorus]

I think it is worth reading this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2172213&postcount=11) post of Zanthorus when it comes to the above texts, as well as this (http://libcom.org/forums/theory/socialist-bourgeois-revolution-03052010?page=10) discussion from libcom.

Yeah, there is a serious deficit of decent english language material on Bordiga out there at the moment. I might try and work on an introduction myself when I get the time over the christmas break (After churning out 1,500 words on 'The Lemon Song' by Led Zeppelin it should be a piece of cake).

[Искра]

I think it is worth reading this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2172213&postcount=11) post of Zanthorus when it comes to the above texts, as well as this (http://libcom.org/forums/theory/socialist-bourgeois-revolution-03052010?page=10) discussion from libcom.
Cool.

Basicaly I'm just trying to find as much as I can of English material... but there's big deficit.

[StalinFanboy]

if people are interested in bordiga then "doctrine of the body possessed by he devil" is a good place to start. marxists.org has most of his translated works