United Russia wins but by a vastly lower margin than the past election, KPRF in 2nd

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

UR ~46-48%
KPRF ~ 20%
Other parties got less ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16024938


Putin's United Russia party suffers exit poll blow

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51606000/jpg/_51606573_fa1d16c0-9c6c-4f82-b0b8-ab66ddd94f78.jpg
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16024938#story_continues_1) Related Stories



In pictures: Russia votes (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16024311)
Challenging the Kremlin on YouTube (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15553373)
Russian backlash at Putin booing denial (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15869047)


An exit poll for Russia's parliamentary elections points to a sharp drop in support for Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's United Russia party.
The poll for Russian state TV showed 48.5% support for United Russia, down from 64% in 2007.
That would give Mr Putin's party 220 members in the 450-seat lower house of parliament, down from 315.
Russia's only independent monitoring group, Golos, logged 5,300 complaints alleging violations of election laws.
Another exit poll, by polling organisation VTSIOM, gave United Russia 48%, while one by the FOM group put it at 46%.
If the result is confirmed, United Russia could lose its current two-thirds majority which allowed it to change the constitution unchallenged.
And there were irregularities reported:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2011/12/201112415137463850.html


Opposition politicians and election monitors have alleged extensive elections violations during voting in Russia's parliamentary polls, as preliminary tallies indicate a decline from 315 to 220 in the ruling party's seats.
United Russia took 48.5 per cent of the votes, down from 64 per cent in 2007. And the Communists came in second with around 20 per cent.
Several parties on Sunday complained of irregularities aimed at boosting United Russia's vote count, including intimidation of voters.
In Vladivostok in the east, voters complained to police that United Russia was offering free food in exchange for promises to vote for the party.
Turnout was low in many areas was lower Sunday compared to the previous election.
The vote is seen as an important test of Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's popularity, just three months before he is due to stand in presidential elections.
His United Russia party is expected to win Sunday's polls but could lose its constitutional majority and end up having to share power in parliament with their political rivals.
Only seven parties have been allowed to field candidates for parliament this year, while the most vocal opposition groups have been denied registration and barred from campaigning.
Al Jazeera's Neave Barker, reporting from Moscow, said: "The country's only independent election observer called Golos reported that more than 5,000 irregularities have been recorded, many of them connected with people pressured to vote mainly for the country's biggest and most powerful party, United Russia".
"There have been some skirmishes today in and around Red Square," our correspondent said. "The capital is on lockdown, and the police are looking for any sign of trouble, with more protests expected later on."
Speaking to Al Jazeera, Garry Kasparov, a political activist and former world chess champion, said: "All the other parties participating in this so called election are 100 per cent under the Kremlin's control.
"Voting for them is to vote for puppets in the theatre of the absurd."
About 30 opposition protesters gathered by the Kremlin screaming: "Your elections are a farce!" through loudspeakers. Twelve were detained by police, Reuters witnesses said.
'Ballot-stuffing'
Communist Party leader Gennady Zyuganov said his party monitors thwarted an attempt to stuff a ballot box at a Moscow polling station where they found 300 ballots already in the box before the start of the vote.
He said incidents of ballot-stuffing were reported at several other stations in Moscow, Rostov-on-Don and other areas. In the southern city of Krasnodar, unidentified people posing as Communist monitors had shown up at polling stations and the real observers from the party were not allowed in, Zyuganov said.
ELECTION COVERAGE
http://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Images/2011/12/4/201112493412821734_4.jpg
In Russia: The end of an era (http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2011/11/2011112882620801929.html) Putin regime faces resistance (http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/11/2011112710817465452.html) How to be in opposition in Russia (http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/12/2011122115247505931.html) United Russia's campaign (http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2011/11/2011113071023642856.html) Golos, the country's only independent election-monitoring group, and two liberal media outlets said their sites had been shut down by hackers intent on silencing allegations of violations.
Golos said its "Map of Violations" website documenting reports of
fraud was inaccessible due a cyber-attack and its email was paralysed.
Golos also said it was excluded from several polling booths in the Siberian Tomsk region.
Many election violations involved absentee ballots, Golos director Liliya Shibanova said. People with absentee certificates were being bused to cast ballots at multiple polling stations, he said.
Moscow prosecutors launched an investigation last week into Golos' activities after legislators objected to its Western financing.
Russian customs officers held the director of Golos for 12 hours at a Moscow airport on Saturday, seizing her laptop computer in what the group said was an attempt to stop it monitoring the election.
Mikhail Kasyanov, a former prime minister during Putin's first presidential term, said he and other opposition activists who voted were under no illusion that their votes would be counted fairly.
"It is absolutely clear there will be no real count," he said. "The authorities created an imitation of a very important institution whose name is free election, that is not free and is not elections."
Russians voted across nine time zones across the 9,000km-wide country, with the first voters in far eastern regions going to the polls at 20:00 GMT on Saturday and voting stations closing at 17:00 GMT on Sunday in the enclave of Kaliningrad, wedged between Poland and Lithuania.
Too bad the KPRF is a reactionary party wrapped up in Stalinist nostalgia and not a revolutionary party, but it shows that Putinism is not a sustainable form of authoritarianism.

[tir1944]

It really doesn't matter because the so called "CRPF" is just an extension of United Russia anyway...

[Die Neue Zeit]

Too bad the KPRF is a reactionary party wrapped up in Stalinist nostalgia and not a revolutionary party, but it shows that Putinism is not a sustainable form of authoritarianism.

On one aspect they're not consistent: they're arguing for the return of Lenin's USSR and not the realization of Stalin's larger, unitary RSFSR.

[tir1944]

On one aspect they're not consistent: they're arguing for the return of Lenin's USSR and not the realization of Stalin's larger, unitary RSFSR.
What's the difference between "Lenin's" and "Stalin's" USSR?
Did individual SSR's not exist in Stalin's time?:confused:

[Smyg]

No surprises here.

[Mather]

What's the difference between "Lenin's" and "Stalin's" USSR?

Did individual SSR's not exist in Stalin's time?


I think DNZ was refering to a proposal that Stalin put to Lenin and the Bolsheviks in the early 1920s to incorporate all the republics of the USSR into a unitary Russian state, the RSFSR.

Lenin and others rejected it and so the USSR remained. Stalin never revived the proposal once he was in power.

[Krano]

There is more Democracy in North Korea, obviously rigged elections.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I think DNZ was refering to a proposal that Stalin put to Lenin and the Bolsheviks in the early 1920s to incorporate all the republics of the USSR into a unitary Russian state, the RSFSR.

Lenin and others rejected it and so the USSR remained. Stalin never revived the proposal once he was in power.

That the larger RSFSR proposal was never revived turned out, in spite of Stalin's turn to Great-Russian chauvinism, to be a geopolitical disaster for the whole post-Soviet space.

[Dire Helix]

On one aspect they're not consistent: they're arguing for the return of Lenin's USSR and not the realization of Stalin's larger, unitary RSFSR.

Who? What? Implying that discussions of this kind can exist in CPRF is a joke in itself.

[Mather]

That the larger RSFSR proposal was never revived turned out, in spite of Stalin's turn to Great-Russian chauvinism, to be a geopolitical disaster for the whole post-Soviet space.

How so?

I would argue that the problems of the USSR and Soviet socialism were many, but I cannot see your point being one of those problems. I would actually argue that the USSR was too centralised and this caused both it's economic problems and it's eventual disintegration.

[PhoenixAsh]

Since the different states continued to exist on paper there was never any work towards a commons people feeling.

Ethnic and national sentiments remained and later came to rise. This greatly contributred to the split up of the USSR and actually aided the imperialist west in their devide and conquer strategy.

[Die Neue Zeit]

How so?

I would argue that the problems of the USSR and Soviet socialism were many, but I cannot see your point being one of those problems. I would actually argue that the USSR was too centralised and this caused both it's economic problems and it's eventual disintegration.

Extensive and excessive decentralization was made under Khrushchev, not all of which was reversed under Brezhnev, Andropov, or Chernenko. The "principle" of a generally more regional approach to party organization remained throughout, with regional and republican party bosses having more clout (accentuated most under Khrushchev through the sovnarkhozy and even bifurcation schemes).

That, and what hindsight said above.

[Mather]

Since the different states continued to exist on paper there was never any work towards a commons people feeling.

Ethnic and national sentiments remained and later came to rise. This greatly contributred to the split up of the USSR and actually aided the imperialist west in their devide and conquer strategy.


In my last post I was talking about centralisation in the sense of economic and political decision making, which left the working class of the USSR feeling distant and alienated from the Soviet leadership. On the issue of nations within the USSR, decentralisation should have gone over these national entities all the way down to the working class, factories, cities and rural districts.

I don't think the RSFSR proposal would have worked nor would it have saved the USSR from collapse, the USSR's problems were to deep and complex to be reduced to an issue of a unitary republic or a federation of nations. Also the biggest reactionary nationalist and possibly fascist threat today in the former USSR comes from Russia itself. The rise of far-right and fascist/neo-nazi groups along with a rise in anti-semitism and anti-immigrant feelings in Russia are worrying. Russian nationalism is deeply reactionary even by contemporary standards and fighting this is essential if the revolutionary left is to revive itself in the former USSR.

[Ocean Seal]

Hey they have less than 50%? Is there a chance that they are becoming more like the Western bourgeois democracies? Even if it is by a little bit.

[Mather]

Hey they have less than 50%? Is there a chance that they are becoming more like the Western bourgeois democracies? Even if it is by a little bit.

I think it's too early to tell yet.

It depends on how the Russian ruling class deals with the current global economic crisis.

[Die Neue Zeit]

In my last post I was talking about centralisation in the sense of economic and political decision making, which left the working class of the USSR feeling distant and alienated from the Soviet leadership. On the issue of nations within the USSR, decentralisation should have gone over these national entities all the way down to the working class, factories, cities and rural districts.

And as I said above, Khrushchev tried regionalization, and things didn't turn out well.


I don't think the RSFSR proposal would have worked nor would it have saved the USSR from collapse

It might not have saved the political regime, but it would have prevented the formation of a post-Soviet space in the first space.


Russian nationalism is deeply reactionary even by contemporary standards and fighting this is essential if the revolutionary left is to revive itself in the former USSR.

Russkaya nationalism is indeed reactionary, but the revolutionary left in the whole post-Soviet space, from left minorities in the CPRF to the RCWP-RPC and the whole Left Front, must adopt as their own the more civic but nonetheless Rossiskaya unity that informed Stalin's greater RSFSR.

[aty]

What I like about Russia and Russians is that they know that the elections and the political system is rigged, even the people say this in polls. And after each election everyone knows that the election was a fraud, and that despite the best efforts from the leaders to create a spectacle.

In the US or in other european countries most people believe that they actually have a democratic process, and the leaders also believe this. It is much more dangerous than the situation in Russia.

[Le Socialiste]

United Russia has a stranglehold on more than just parliamentary majorities and politics; they've managed to put their members in all sorts of public, government, and state positions. The reality is, most of the major parties with seats are under UR's thumb and won't pose a serious threat to its dominance. Even if another party were to win, they would still align themselves with what the ruling-class sees as Russia's domestic and international interests - that is, a stable internal structure capable of projecting power beyond its borders. Geopolitically Russia is in a vulnerable position, and has historically maneuvered itself into positions that guarantee a protected home front.

This can only happen if the ruling-class has its cards in order, and it hasn't for the most part (at least until Putin stepped in). As soon as Russia is confident in its ability to maintain its own financial, military, and secruity infrastructure(s) in a relatively efficient manner, it will be comfortable enought to turn its attention on the broader world. As things currently stand, this focus is on the states making up the former Soviet space. Within the realm of bourgeois interests and dominance over its people's affairs, a nation will respond to the geopolitical strengths and weaknesses confronting it. Russia is in a period of rediscovering this balancing act, and it will respond accordingly.

Of course, it doesn't matter whether UR is in power or not - there will always be another party or coalition willing to take its place. So long as these parties maintain the interests of the ruling-class (and they will) it won't be a problem if UR ceases to be the dominant power in the government.

[Mather]

And as I said above, Khrushchev tried regionalization, and things didn't turn out well.

Well being an anarchist I am not taken in by the superficial 'reforms' from above that the Soviet leadership imposed on the USSR's economy and the working class. To be genuine, any changes can only come about by the working class themselves, not party bosses or vanguard parties.

IMO the Russian revolution was lost by the very early 1920s so I don't think anything other than a second working class revolution would have remedied the situation.



It might not have saved the political regime, but it would have prevented the formation of a post-Soviet space in the first space.



It might have but would that have been a good thing? Upon the collapse of the USSR, all we would have seen is a capitalist 'Greater Russia' emerge and in all likelehood such a state would have used the reactionary 'Greater Russia' nationalist narrative as a means to hold this 'Greater Russia' together.



Russkaya nationalism is indeed reactionary, but the revolutionary left in the whole post-Soviet space, from left minorities in the CPRF to the RCWP-RPC and the whole Left Front, must adopt as their own the more civic but nonetheless Rossiskaya unity that informed Stalin's greater RSFSR.


Why, to repeat the mistakes of 'socialism in one country'? That failed in the 20th century and it would fail even more so in this one. Would it not be better for the working class in the former USSR to link up in struggle with the working class of say Europe and the Middle East to form a polity that would truely be able to withstand capitalist counter-attack and encirclement? This is one major area where the USSR failed.

As for the CPRF and the RCWP-RPC, these fossils and nostalgists will play no part in any future working class revolution in Russia, save for a reactionary role much like the French CP in 1968 or the Greek CP this year. Any working class revolution will be in spite of these two parties, not because of them.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Why, to repeat the mistakes of 'socialism in one country'? That failed in the 20th century and it would fail even more so in this one. Would it not be better for the working class in the former USSR to link up in struggle with the working class of say Europe and the Middle East to form a polity that would truely be able to withstand capitalist counter-attack and encirclement? This is one major area where the USSR failed.

In the immediate term, why a single polity and not a Comecon-style bloc with a smaller Euroworkers Demarchic Commonwealth (only because of Rossiskaya influence) and whatever one wishes to call the Rossiskaya polity (depending on how far into Europe it goes)?


As for the CPRF and the RCWP-RPC, these fossils and nostalgists will play no part in any future working class revolution in Russia, save for a reactionary role much like the French CP in 1968 or the Greek CP this year. Any working class revolution will be in spite of these two parties, not because of them.

I'm not so sure about your assertion re. the RCWP-RPC.

[阿部高和]

It really doesn't matter because the so called "CRPF" is just an extension of United Russia anyway...

This sir, is ignorance.

[tir1944]

This sir, is ignorance.
Maybe.
How about you substantiate your position though?
Why do you think they aren't an extension of UR?

[Die Neue Zeit]

A Just Russia is the left extension of the Kremlin's managed legislation, not the CPRF.

[tir1944]

When has the CPRF stood against UR and what was it about?

[阿部高和]

Maybe.
How about you substantiate your position though?
Why do you think they aren't an extension of UR?

The CPRF is certainly not a communist party by any means anymore, it has fascist elements and supports capitalist hierarchy, but the thing is is that it is not an extension of UR, as Zuganov (spelling?) has launched an aggressive campaign against Putin which is why the party is polling much better than previously; It is not an offshoot by any means, it's a legitimate opposition, even if it may not be desirable to communism.

[B.K.]

Final results:
UR - 238 seats in the parliament;
KPRF - 92;
JR - 64;
LDPR - 56.

JR and LDPR are already willing to form a block with UR. BTW, the elections were obviously rigged (UR got almost 100% in Chechnya, and more than 91% in Dagestan and Mordovia, which is impossible by fair means), so right now there are massive protests in Moscow and other cities:

1_NMbJTGCk8

KeZwK3KAblY

[Crux]

Who is doing the rioting? By the way the Russian CWI comrades advocated a boycott of the elections. That seems like the correct position to me.
http://socialistworld.ru/assets/drgalleries/884/thumb_boikot-vyb.jpg

[Die Neue Zeit]

Who is doing the rioting? By the way the Russian CWI comrades advocated a boycott of the elections. That seems like the correct position to me.
http://socialistworld.ru/assets/drgalleries/884/thumb_boikot-vyb.jpg

Whatever. Those sectarians doesn't appreciate spoiled balloting.

Meanwhile, I'm curious about the position of the RCWP-RPC and Left Front comrades with respect to Sunday's elections. Did they stand?

[agnixie]

Whatever. Those sectarians doesn't appreciate spoiled balloting.

Meanwhile, I'm curious about the position of the RCWP-RPC and Left Front comrades with respect to Sunday's elections. Did they stand?

If it's like Spain, spoiled ballots are just reapportioned to the other parties. Seeing how UR somehow won every seat and almost all of the vote in the republics, I figure spoiled ballots are reapportioned to UR.

[Jose Gracchus]

Lol. "These sectarians do not understand spoilt ballots"? It is you who is the sectarian here, who is throwing up this shibboleth that separates the existing left, and the real working-class, from you, and holding it up as the defining quality of true left electoral lines? That is the definition of Marx's concept of sectarianism.

[tir1944]

Who is doing the rioting? By the way the Russian CWI comrades advocated a boycott of the elections.
Just out of curiosity,how many members/sympathizers have they got anyway?

[Ocean Seal]

Also is this statement true or false: 146% of the eligible population voted? I heard this as a rumor, can anyone confirm it?

[B.K.]

Who is doing the rioting?

Mostly liberals ("Solidarity", Strategy-31, etc.), but there were also some anarchists, Left Front activists, and just apolitical people who became disappointed in the politics of UR. So far I haven't noticed any significant nationalist/far-right presence there, which is really good (much better than I expected; however, the internet discussions are full of all kinds of nationalist idiocy, and this weekend will be an anniversary of December 2010 nationalist riots...)


Just out of curiosity,how many members/sympathizers have they got anyway?

Surely not many. Even the majority of left activists here haven't heard about them.


Also is this statement true or false: 146% of the eligible population voted? I heard this as a rumor, can anyone confirm it?

Yes, there were such rumors, probably because of this:

s007.radikal.ru/i302/1112/b5/02e77c2cffef.jpg

s45.radikal.ru/i108/1112/84/58907d6c7d55.jpg

(can't post images, sorry)

[Die Neue Zeit]

If it's like Spain, spoiled ballots are just reapportioned to the other parties. Seeing how UR somehow won every seat and almost all of the vote in the republics, I figure spoiled ballots are reapportioned to UR.

It's a matter of electoral rules and campaigning against reapportionment.


Lol. "These sectarians do not understand spoilt ballots"? It is you who is the sectarian here, who is throwing up this shibboleth that separates the existing left, and the real working-class, from you, and holding it up as the defining quality of true left electoral lines? That is the definition of Marx's concept of sectarianism.

I never said spoiled ballots were/are a shibboleth. :glare:

Political consciousness, awareness, etc. aren't exactly things that are entirely grown "organically" inside the class or class movement(s).

What I will be staunch about, though, is that abstentionism (except for a medical emergency or some other really urgent problem) means being completely oblivious to politics or being too lazy to express disgruntlement.


Just out of curiosity,how many members/sympathizers have they got anyway?

Not a whole lot. Even the Russian Maoists outnumber them.

[mrmikhail]

Also is this statement true or false: 146% of the eligible population voted? I heard this as a rumor, can anyone confirm it?

False, 60.2% (http://english.ruvr.ru/2011/12/05/61399728.html) of eligible voters voted which is down from last election.

[Mather]

I'm not so sure about your assertion re. the RCWP-RPC.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't we had RCWP-RPC members on Revleft who have been banned for homophobic and nationalist comments/posts?

[Die Neue Zeit]

Yes, but that's not related to your relating them to the PCF or the more coalitionist-leaning leaders within the KKE. The RCWP-RPC does have more political work on its plate than praising Stalin and what not.

[Die Neue Zeit]

On the question of left unity, the "Mandelite" Fourth International is the best Trotskyist group:

http://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article2400



Duncan Chapel


The 2011 congress of the Socialist Movement "Forward" (Vpered), its sixth, has voted to join with two other socialist organisations to form the “Russian Socialist Movement” (RSD). This congress was notable because the discussion has held in parallel with the preparations for the simultaneous congress of "Socialist Resistance" (Sotsialisticheskoye Soprotivleniye). [1] During many debates and discussions, members addressed the consolidation and unity of the Left forces in Russia and the need to develop a full-fledged political agenda left. These issues took up the major part the Congress.

The Congress of “Forward” decided to dissolve the organization to unify with "Socialist Resistance". The founding conference of the new association - which was called the Russian Socialist Movement - took place the next day. A new network of RSD activists will group together the members of the Fourth International, which will become the official section of that international revolutionary organization in Russia. In February 2010 “Forward” was granted the status of the Russian section of the Fourth International. The congress voted in support of projects outlined in the draft charter of the newly established organization. In addition, the congress supported the draft "road map" for the integration of the left in 2011 and its focus on building a broad anti-capitalist left party, together with representatives of other Russian left-wing organizations and social movements.

It was agreed that the Central Council of the united organization shall include eight activists of "Forward" and "Socialist Resistance". In addition, there was support for the inclusion of the Central Council representative of the Left Front in an advisory capacity. In turn, the Left Front will include in its Executive Committee one representative from the unified organization with an advisory vote. This kind of exchange of ambassadors in the governing bodies of the two key actors of the future will demonstrate a broad alliance, and the seriousness of our intentions of unification. Also in new organization will operate a Publishing Center (IC). The task of the IC includes publication of a newspaper, as well as books and pamphlets, which express the organization’s position, maintaining its website, making symbols and paraphernalia, and other areas of publishing work. On the same day, as the "Forward" conference, the "Socialist Resistance" conference discussed the same issues and adopted similar decisions.

[Crux]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't we had RCWP-RPC members on Revleft who have been banned for homophobic and nationalist comments/posts?

check out my guestbook, page 2, for some classic homophobic slurs from one of their members, born in the ussr. He also had an amuring nationalist and stalinist thing going on. So in other words nothing that would bother dnz

[Die Neue Zeit]

So in other words nothing that would bother dnz

Are you now going to suggest I'm homophobic??? :rolleyes:

[Normally I'd flame you right now, but I'll restrain my proverbial tongue.]

[Crux]

On the question of left unity, the "Mandelite" Fourth International is the best Trotskyist group:

http://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article2400



Duncan Chapel


The 2011 congress of the Socialist Movement "Forward" (Vpered), its sixth, has voted to join with two other socialist organisations to form the “Russian Socialist Movement” (RSD). This congress was notable because the discussion has held in parallel with the preparations for the simultaneous congress of "Socialist Resistance" (Sotsialisticheskoye Soprotivleniye). [1] During many debates and discussions, members addressed the consolidation and unity of the Left forces in Russia and the need to develop a full-fledged political agenda left. These issues took up the major part the Congress.

The Congress of “Forward” decided to dissolve the organization to unify with "Socialist Resistance". The founding conference of the new association - which was called the Russian Socialist Movement - took place the next day. A new network of RSD activists will group together the members of the Fourth International, which will become the official section of that international revolutionary organization in Russia. In February 2010 “Forward” was granted the status of the Russian section of the Fourth International. The congress voted in support of projects outlined in the draft charter of the newly established organization. In addition, the congress supported the draft "road map" for the integration of the left in 2011 and its focus on building a broad anti-capitalist left party, together with representatives of other Russian left-wing organizations and social movements.

It was agreed that the Central Council of the united organization shall include eight activists of "Forward" and "Socialist Resistance". In addition, there was support for the inclusion of the Central Council representative of the Left Front in an advisory capacity. In turn, the Left Front will include in its Executive Committee one representative from the unified organization with an advisory vote. This kind of exchange of ambassadors in the governing bodies of the two key actors of the future will demonstrate a broad alliance, and the seriousness of our intentions of unification. Also in new organization will operate a Publishing Center (IC). The task of the IC includes publication of a newspaper, as well as books and pamphlets, which express the organization’s position, maintaining its website, making symbols and paraphernalia, and other areas of publishing work. On the same day, as the "Forward" conference, the "Socialist Resistance" conference discussed the same issues and adopted similar decisions.

incidentally both grotps are former members of the russian cwi and former with good reason. Both have an liquidationist attitude to party building. SR, or rather the group calling themselfes that now also had a russian nationalist attitude to the georgian-russian conflict. So yeah. But then again the mandelites will take anyone it seems.

[Die Neue Zeit]

incidentally both grotps are former members of the russian cwi and former with good reason. Both have an liquidationist attitude to party building. SR, or rather the group calling themselfes that now also had a russian nationalist attitude to the georgian-russian conflict. So yeah. But then again the mandelites will take anyone it seems.

Puh-leez. :rolleyes: Here's an effort at "broad anti-capitalist left party"-building, not CWI sect building.

[Le Socialiste]

Political consciousness, awareness, etc. aren't exactly things that are entirely grown "organically" inside the class or class movement(s).

In many respects they are. Awareness is brought to the forefront through class struggle, leading in many instances to what can be considered the beginning of a worker's social and political consciousness. These factors arise from capitalism's own internal contradictions and antagonisms, leading to the growth of labor-related activity and actions undertaken by the working-class. Class movements are a result of this, and one's consciousness typically takes this into account. Leading the working-class to a complete and total rejection of capitalism and capitalist-friendly policies is the next logical step, but this can only take place if a significant layer of the class is prepared for its own mobilization. This mental preparation has, in many ways, already begun by this point; it takes those who have already arrived to guide the working-class towards the realization that their fight is the logical next step towards throwing off the dictates of capital and its holders. But the awareness and willingness to participate in the class struggle - whether consciously or not - is a natural one.


What I will be staunch about, though, is that abstentionism (except for a medical emergency or some other really urgent problem) means being completely oblivious to politics or being too lazy to express disgruntlement.

How? Abstaining from the electoral process is one of many ways to prevent reformist/opportunistic forces from entering the ranks of the movement. These elements will inevitably rise up, but it should be our role as revolutionary leftists to reject these arguments and expose them for what they are: lethal to the efforts of the working-class. It's not a matter of laziness or political immaturity (though, on the societal level, this can be blamed on capitalism's tendency to alienate the people from the political process). You're casting blame on the working-class when in fact it's the fault of the bourgeoisie and the capitalistic-democratic process.

[cheguvera]

This putin's party is a shit capitalist party.Still socialism is not strong enough in russia.KGB could not stop russia falling in to capitalists hand.
communist russia was far more better than capitalist russia.
But communism failed to utilise its vast natural resources for social welfare of its people.Those so-called dicators were the culprits.Russia wasted lot of its wealth on space projects & military development.This is one reason why they got kicked out.capitalist russia is more racist than communist russia.

[B.K.]

Yes, there were such rumors, probably because of this:

s007.radikal.ru/i302/1112/b5/02e77c2cffef.jpg

s45.radikal.ru/i108/1112/84/58907d6c7d55.jpg


Source:

h1osOniNVCY
3ImbaFU4mmU

I think no translation needed.

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

well now. this is gooder news. makes me think a revolution possible again

[Mather]

Whatever. Those sectarians doesn't appreciate spoiled balloting.


So a party that boycotts an election in a semi-authoritarian state where the election is obviously rigged is "sectarian"?

What is the point of spoiling your ballots if they are going to be reapportioned to the ruling party, as is the case in Russia?

A boycott was the only revolutionary position that one could take.


It's a matter of electoral rules

Rules which the Russian ruling class make and rules designed to lock the working class into the dead end of bourgeois electoral politics and reformism.



and campaigning against reapportionment.



Such a campaign will go nowhere. Do you really think Putin's regime is going to change the very rules that rig the elections in his favour? Remember that this is a regime that in all likelehood has killed off some of it's opponents in the Russian media and elsewhere.



I never said spoiled ballots were/are a shibboleth.


You may not have used that exact word but your posts strongly imply that is what your saying.


Political consciousness, awareness, etc. aren't exactly things that are entirely grown "organically" inside the class or class movement(s).


No, political/class consciousness develops in struggle and class conflict, of which class movements may or may not be a part of.


What I will be staunch about, though, is that abstentionism (except for a medical emergency or some other really urgent problem) means being completely oblivious to politics or being too lazy to express disgruntlement.


Complete nonsense.

In voting and participating in the ruling class game of bourgeois electoralism, the working class disenfranchise themselves. The electoral system is specifically designed to give the results the ruling class want and parliamentary politics is such that any 'left' or 'revolutionary' party that participates will end up being co opted into the capitalist system. This is what has happened to all social democratic parties and all 'left' and 'revolutionary' parties that have participated in electoralism and reformism.

If you really want to become "oblivious" to politics then by all means go ahead and vote, as electoralism and reformism are the ultimate forms of apolitical oblivion. Working class politics will develop from the factories, workplaces, local communities and collective struggle and not from the useless and futile ritual of voting in an election that will change nothing and deliver nothing.

As for calling working class people who are fed up with the crap of electoral politics "lazy" well your arrogance, not to mention your complete ignorance, is on full display here.

[Mather]

Yes, but that's not related to your relating them to the PCF or the more coalitionist-leaning leaders within the KKE. The RCWP-RPC does have more political work on its plate than praising Stalin and what not.


If a lot of RCWP-RPC members espouse nationalist and homophobic sentiments, much like the CPRF does, then you have to wonder what type of political education RCWP-RPC members get from their party. Judging from the comments of some of their members, whatever political education they get seems to be wholly reactionary and has little to do with working class liberation.

Just like the KKE in Greece, the CPRF and the RCWP-RPC espouse a nationalist narrative in their politics and much like the KKE and PCF the CPRF and the RCWP-RPC are both reformist in their theory and practice.

If there is ever to be a working class revolution in Russia, then the CPRF and the RCWP-RPC are not going to be a part of it.

[Mather]

This putin's party is a shit capitalist party. Still socialism is not strong enough in russia. KGB could not stop russia falling in to capitalists hand.



The reasons for the failure of the USSR have nothing to do with the KGB or it's effectiveness. The working class did not hold power in the USSR, party bosses and state bureaucrats did and by the end of the 1980s, this class of people saw that it was in their class interests to restore proper capitalism in the former USSR.


communist russia was far more better than capitalist russia.


Whilst thit is true it also shows us how bad things have got in Russia given that the Soviet system was nowhere near socialism or communism.



But communism failed to utilise its vast natural resources for social welfare of its people. Those so-called dicators were the culprits. Russia wasted lot of its wealth on space projects & military development.This is one reason why they got kicked out.


The Soviet space projects did not drain the USSR as the space race had kind of finished by the mid-1970s. You are correct though in saying the USSR spent more than it could afford on it's military.



capitalist russia is more racist than communist russia.


The USSR was never communist. Communism has yet to come into existence.

[Mather]

well now. this is gooder news. makes me think a revolution possible again

Of course I would love to think so too, but I feel that Russia is not really anywhere near a pre-revolutionary situation yet.

[Le Socialiste]

Of course I would love to think so too, but I feel that Russia is not really anywhere near a pre-revolutionary situation yet.

Unfortunately, Russia's ruling elite have seized on the country's anxieties and refocused them under a nationalist program. The political-financial elite in the country have encouraged and approved the growth of far-right movements, using them to keep the working-class trapped inside its own xenophobia. If a revolution were to occur in the near future, I would expect it to be a product of nationalist elements amongst the people. The Russian working-class has a long way to go in order to shake off these influences, and it requires a willingness on the part of the revolutionary left to help guide the people out of their plight.

[Die Neue Zeit]

So a party that boycotts an election in a semi-authoritarian state where the election is obviously rigged is "sectarian"?

What is the point of spoiling your ballots if they are going to be reapportioned to the ruling party, as is the case in Russia?

A boycott was the only revolutionary position that one could take.

[...]

You may not have used that exact word but your posts strongly imply that is what your saying.

Boycotts aren't really active actions. To address both of your last two points at once, you haven't suggested, for example, mass protests on election day in countries where this reapportionment shit occurs.


No, political/class consciousness develops in struggle and class conflict, of which class movements may or may not be a part of.

I don't think we quite agree on the definition of "class movement." Every genuine class struggle is political and not economic. Class consciousness grows out of ordinary political awareness, not out of the consciousness exhibited in mere labour disputes.


Working class politics will develop from the factories, workplaces, local communities and collective struggle and not from the useless and futile ritual of voting in an election that will change nothing and deliver nothing.

Again, not every country has very unfavourable rules re. spoiled ballots, even as an expression of being "fed up with the crap of electoral politics."

[Le Socialiste]

Every genuine class struggle is political and not economic.

How so?

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ That was a keen observation of the Chartists, the Communist Manifesto, and the organizers of the International Workingmen's Association.

[Mather]

Boycotts aren't really active actions.


You keep saying this, but you have not given any reasons as to why you think this.

Do you really believe that voting in bourgeois elections is somehow of more political use to the working class than a boycott? If so, why?



To address both of your last two points at once, you haven't suggested, for example, mass protests on election day in countries where this reapportionment shit occurs.



I am not opposed to the use of mass protests, strikes and direct action as part of a wider boycott campaign. During the 2008 mayoral and local elections for London, anarchists organised a boycott campaign that included protests being held outside city hall and voting stations.

However, whilst I would absolutely be in favour of such actions being part of any boycott campaign against bourgeois elections, I will still insist that even an inactive boycott is preferable to people voting thus legitimising the power of the ruling class and bourgeois 'democracy'.



I don't think we quite agree on the definition of "class movement."


What is your definition of a "class movement"?



Every genuine class struggle is political and not economic.


The economic is political, as is everything. Don't let the ruling class narrative that economics can be applied and analysed in complete isolation from political and social factors fool you.


Class consciousness grows out of ordinary political awareness,

What do you mean by "ordinary political awareness"? What is this awareness and where does it come from?



not out of the consciousness exhibited in mere labour disputes.



Are you making that claim that labour disputes and economic struggles do not contribute to the development of political consciousness at all? What material factors do you consider relevant in the development of political consciousness?



Again, not every country has very unfavourable rules re. spoiled ballots, even as an expression of being "fed up with the crap of electoral politics."


Does it really matter? Whilst I and other have made the point that in Russia's case spoilt ballots are reapportioned, all elections under bourgeois 'democracy' are a sham. Any left party that participates in them will only end up legitimising bourgeois 'democracy' and will most likely end up being co opted into the system. This has been the case throughout history and there are many modern examples of this such as the Refoundation Communist Party (Italy), Die Linke (Germany), Left Bloc (Portugal) etc...