People who push social liberalism under the banner of Marxism

[metal gear]

The point of Marxism is a belief that class conflict presents a scenario for revolution and change on behalf of the working class.

The point of Marxism did not originate in the 1960's in America. That white males are evil, that homosexuality should become the norm, that anarchism should replace governments, that abortion is no different from not getting pregnant in the first place, that nationalism is always reactionary and harmful to internationalism even when it isn't, etc.

None of Marx's writings justify this social liberalism. Therefore a website that is Marxist shouldn't make that part of the mandatory agenda.

Marx's writings do however clearly prefer atheism (as do I), but not all this other stuff that resembles hippies more than revolutionaries.

[Crux]

Well for someone who thinks ADHD and Aspergers is a "feminist conspiracy" against "male behaviour" and is a-okay with nationalism that's an unsuprising standpoint. Let me guess you consider yourself "socially conservative", right?
Genuine marxism has always been consistent in regards to abortion and LGBT-issues. At very least it is easy to find a long history of such positions, especially in post-revolutionary russia the first country to legalize homosexuality. Don't know if they were first for abortion as well but that wouldn't be unlikely.

[Tim Cornelis]

I'm not quite seeing the point you're trying to make though...

[metal gear]

In some ways yes. In some ways no. I'm not religious. I pretty much fit the person described in the OP.

[metal gear]

The point I am making is that people have added their own personal views and called it "Marxism." Then they've tried to boot others out on behalf of those personal views.

[Crux]

The point I am making is that people have added their own personal views and called it "Marxism." Then they've tried to boot others out on behalf of those personal views.
Opposing sexism and racism is "personal" now, is it? Well, you are male and white. I think your position is far more "personal" than those of us who consistently oppose racism and sexism, something which indeed has to have been fought for inside the worker's movement but is very much a part of the worker's movement none the less.

[Tim Finnegan]

Idea for a new thread: People pushing conservatism under the banner of Marxism.

[metal gear]

It may appear racist that when you look at medals being handed out at the 100 meter dash, they are all going to blacks.

But then when you see the times they justify those medals going to who they are going to.

Likewise, I do not believe capitalism still institutionalizes racialism, I believe instead that different groups have simply achieved at different levels. Now capitalism is no meritocracy either, it's all about how you sell yourself, but I am making an analogy. The fact that Whites are commonly in positions of power in NYC in 2011 doesn't mean that they are still benefiting from the legacy of Slavery in Georgia in the 1800s.

Therefore I do not believe in making the assumption that White performance in the current political system is tied to racism, even though I believe the system should be replaced for the benefit of both blacks and whites.

[Per Levy]

That white males are evil, that homosexuality should become the norm

who is saying that? im a while on this site and havnt seen anyone saying something like this. or is it just a strawman?


that abortion is no different from not getting pregnant in the first place, again who is saying this? nonetheless abortion should and must be a right for any woman.


that nationalism is always reactionary and harmful to internationalism even when it isn't, etc.so how is nationalism helpfull to internationalism? please tell.


None of Marx's writings justify this social liberalism. Therefore a website that is Marxist shouldn't make that part of the mandatory agenda.putting aside that marx advocated communism, a stateless classless society, marx words are not a dogmatic bible and marx knew that very well and he has changed views of his fro time to time. and part of the class struggle today is antiracism, antisexism, internationalism, lgbt rights and so on.

[Preussen]

The point of Marxism is a belief that class conflict presents a scenario for revolution and change on behalf of the working class.

The point of Marxism did not originate in the 1960's in America. That white males are evil, that homosexuality should become the norm, that anarchism should replace governments, that abortion is no different from not getting pregnant in the first place, that nationalism is always reactionary and harmful to internationalism even when it isn't, etc.

None of Marx's writings justify this social liberalism. Therefore a website that is Marxist shouldn't make that part of the mandatory agenda.

Marx's writings do however clearly prefer atheism (as do I), but not all this other stuff that resembles hippies more than revolutionaries.

Comrade, as is often the case, you need to read more and talk less.

Marxism has always taken a strong stance on racism. I would advise you to read "Marx At The Margins" by Kevin Anderson, which brings to light a number of neglected works by Marx on the colonial question and issues of race. Outside of Marx, you surely wouldn't claim that Lenin didn't have strong views on issues of race and colonialism?

I am not aware of anyone who claims that "homosexuality should become the norm", Marxist or otherwise. However, Marxism was understood by both Marx and Engels to be "scientific socialism", and all its founders have had a clear commitment to making it compatible with the most recent advances in modern science (provided that science is based in rational materialism). It would therefore be very much contrary to the initial spirit of Marxism to enforce a social conservative notion of sexual norms, when modern biology clearly suggests that this is nonsense.

As for "that anarchism should replace governments" - Marxism has always had a commitment to the eventual dissolution of the state, once the social relations of production render it unnecessary. This point was amply proven by Lenin in his "State and Revolution", with many quotations from both Marx and Engels.

As for abortion, it did not exist when Marx and Engels were writing, so it would be impossible for them to have a clear position on it, but we can be relatively certain that whatever position they adopted would be based on reason and not idealist notions of the "sanctity of life".

And, obviously, nationalism is a thorny question in Marxism, with numerous different positions. The Anderson book, mentioned above, also includes a number of important passages from Marx on the question of nationalism.

[Leftsolidarity]

It may appear racist that when you look at medals being handed out at the 100 meter dash, they are all going to blacks.

But then when you see the times they justify those medals going to who they are going to.

Likewise, I do not believe capitalism still institutionalizes racialism, I believe instead that different groups have simply achieved at different levels. Now capitalism is no meritocracy either, it's all about how you sell yourself, but I am making an analogy. The fact that Whites are commonly in positions of power in NYC in 2011 doesn't mean that they are still benefiting from the legacy of Slavery in Georgia in the 1800s.

Therefore I do not believe in making the assumption that White performance in the current political system is tied to racism, even though I believe the system should be replaced for the benefit of both blacks and whites.

The fuck?

Who the fuck is this asshole and why isn't he restricted/banned?

[Per Levy]

It may appear racist that when you look at medals being handed out at the 100 meter dash, they are all going to blacks.

But then when you see the times they justify those medals going to who they are going to.

? so when a sport person wins a 100 meter dash s/he gets a medal for it regardless of the skincolour. i mean what are you trying to say here?


Likewise, I do not believe capitalism still institutionalizes racialism,

racism is a usefull tool for capitalism "divide and conquer" you know?


I believe instead that different groups have simply achieved at different levels.

what kind of groups are that? black and white people? what do you mean with those levels? economic levels, intelligence levels?

[Per Levy]

The fuck?

Who the fuck is this asshole and why isn't he restricted/banned?

im sure he will be soon, that kind of stuff he posted today is pretty damn racist + his pro nationalistic attidue and so on. its sad that people like this claim to be leftists/marxists.

[socialistjustin]

Conservative troll. Nobody is saying anything of the sort that is in the OP and like a true conservative he makes it up to fit whatever the fuck it is he's trying to say.

[Crux]

Go back to the phora.

[thefinalmarch]

that abortion is no different from not getting pregnant in the first place
Personally I don't see how the pro-choice position is integral to the emancipation of the working class (although other users should feel free to correct me on that), but the general rule of thumb is that if you don't agree that a woman should have the opportunity to terminate her pregnancy at any stage (in other words, if you support the idea that a woman can be told what she can and can't do concerning her own fucking body), you're probably a fucking asswipe and should be put against the wall.


that nationalism is always reactionary and harmful to internationalism even when it isn't, etc.
Historically in the times of the bourgeois-democratic revolutions, nationalists were certainly a revolutionary force and they did in fact further the material interests of the working class by encouraging members of different classes to fight together for the bourgeois-national interest and abolish the feudal system and with it all the restrictions it placed on the bourgeoisie and proto-bourgeoisie, thus allowing for greater proletarianisation of people and their occupations, which was basically baby steps towards communism in the long run.

But you'll be hard-pressed to find any society like that today where the feudal aristocracy remains in power and the working class is so under-developed (or not developed at all); a society where bourgeois revolution is necessary. Nationalism today only acts as a tool which the bourgeoisie can use to drum up popular support for the nation-state, and pit members of the international working class against each other thus weakening our class.

[metal gear]

I don't support the phora.

Regarding colonialism, I did not talk about colonialism, but the issue of colonialism and the issue of the allocation of power inside the bourgeois system are different.

The idea that the system is a "white brotherhood that discriminates against blacks" is what I am disagreeing with. Sure some whites do discriminate against Blacks, and some Blacks discriminate against Whites.

It's 2011. It's not 1955.

[socialistjustin]

The poverty numbers and jail rate would like to disagree.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I don't understand what the OP has against dead babies and buttsecks.

Anyway, death to the heterosexual white males, only rootless gay feminist abortion doctors will be allowed to exist in our cultural Marxist utopia.

[The Douche]

Just fuck off to socialist phalanx, it'll save us both some time.

[thefinalmarch]

The idea that the system is a "white brotherhood that discriminates against blacks" is what I am disagreeing with. Sure some whites do discriminate against Blacks, and some Blacks discriminate against Whites.
Racism is impotent without power, and the people who hold the power use it to discriminate against non-whites in most "western" countries.

If you weren't a total jerk-off, you'd know that we are materialists and we don't believe simple things like attitudes and ideas in themselves actually have any material consequence in the real world.

[metal gear]

I lost a job to an Asian and Black manager (and a white one).

Should I argue that it was their colonial immigration that made me lose the job? The Asian immigrant "colonized." I was discriminated against based on race? No I would argue that they were dumb, that they did not know how to run a company, but I am sure if I kissed ass a bit more an played politics, I may have held on to job a little longer.

As some people argue that White immigrants are responsible directly for the position of blacks within the bourgeois system based on solely assumption and outdated history.

[Tim Finnegan]

The idea that the system is a "white brotherhood that discriminates against blacks" is what I am disagreeing with. Sure some whites do discriminate against Blacks, and some Blacks discriminate against Whites.

It's 2011. It's not 1955.
Hold on, am I getting this right- you believe that racism doesn't exist, not because you deny the existence of a mysterious White Brotherhood, but because you believe that it did exist, but has since been dissolved? Am I understanding that right? :confused:

[metal gear]

I believe racism exists but not in our institutions. We don't have jim crow. We don't have anything but a minority of church's opposing interracial marriage. We don't have slavery.

Instead we have affirmative action.

Individuals, sure, can be racist. Capitalism is now non-racist.

And racist is an odd word. I believe races and individuals differ, but I don't believe that the policies that existed with Slavery and even Jim Crow were good policies.

[Azraella]

None of Marx's writings justify this social liberalism. Therefore a website that is Marxist shouldn't make that part of the mandatory agenda.

1. Not everyone here is a Marxist. (I'm talking about the leftists here)

2. Social liberalism? Fuck lukewarm attitudes to social justice issues. Let's try social radicalism for a while and actually solve these issues.

3. Marxism does aknowledge that sexism and racism(and other negative social attitudes) is a serious problem.

4. You are a reactionary.

[metal gear]

You are a reactionary.
en. wikip edia.o r g/ wiki/ Reactionary

The term reactionary refers to viewpoints that seek to return to a previous state in a society.
no

[Azraella]

en. wikip edia.o r g/ wiki/ Reactionary

no


Wikipedia is a fun way to prove your point. Your socially regressive diatribe is not revolutionary.

I however, cannot take you seriously, it's either rage or laugh at you. I am doing the latter. :lol:

[Smyg]

Just ban this reactionary right now and be done with him.

[metal gear]

The reasons for believing that race exists (but not supporting jim crow and slavery), opposing abortion (like Stalin) and such have nothing to do with being "reactionary."

I did not live in a time when abortion was illegal (if it ever was in America) and i do not want to "go back" to that time.

They are based on my own views and thinking.

Unlike you I do not try to define these issues as part of my Marxism. You do. Abortion has nothing to do with class conflict and in my analysis, capitalism is thoroughly globalist and thoroughly individualist. Reactionary nationalism isn't the same thing as progressive nationalism within internationalism.

[Azraella]

Just ban this reactionary right now and be done with him.


The reasons for believing that race exists (but not supporting jim crow and slavery), opposing abortion (like Stalin) and such have nothing to do with being "reactionary."

I did not live in a time when abortion was illegal (if it ever was in America) and i do not want to "go back" to that time.

They are based on my own views and thinking.

Unlike you I do not try to define these issues as part of my Marxism. You do. Abortion has nothing to do with class conflict and in my analysis, capitalism is thoroughly globalist and thoroughly individualist. Reactionary nationalism isn't the same thing as progressive nationalism within internationalism.


See this inanity, Smyg? Just laugh at it. It's not worth raging about.

[metal gear]

For instance you just acted "like a women" by quoting a post and saying "laugh at it."

Well the post was perfectly logical. You think that by building a consensus, that your strength in numbers undermines my logic.

You wonder why I attack feminism? It's that type of behavior. Show me where Marx defends the "right" of females to act stupid because you are reactionary if you oppose it. Give me a Marx quote.

[OHumanista]

Yeah you got all right, we are going enforce homosexualism, practice reverse racism, exclude all power from males (who will be from now on forced to serve as maids).
(frankly can ANYONE believe in this guy?:laugh:)

(a note for you dear "comrade", "socialist"phalanx is the place you're looking for)

[Tim Finnegan]

I'm honestly having a hard time figuring if this guy is a troll or just an idiot.

[Azraella]

For instance you just acted "like a women" by quoting a post and saying "laugh at it."

I'm bigendered. Of course I'm going to act like a woman sometimes.



Well the post was perfectly logical. You think that by building a consensus, that your strength in numbers undermines my logic.

I'm not wasting my intellectual strength on reactionaries.



You wonder why I attack feminism? It's that type of behavior. Show me where Marx defends the "right" of females to act stupid because you are reactionary if you oppose it. Give me a Marx quote.


Appeal to authority. And you want to attack my logic.

[metal gear]

I started out as an "idiot" (although in reality you guys are the idiots) but now I am not trolling but I am being rude on purpose because I think it's deserved based on the complete idiocy that has overwhelmed this thread.

I was willing to give people a chance, but they've confirmed their stupidity to me by their own actions. You aren't interested in USSR, Maoism, Marxism, Juche, or anything revolutionary. You are interested in supporting things that the Democratic Party in America supports and calling it revolutionary. Basically you are undermining an understanding of capital by blaming things on conservatives and racists instead of capital.

[Ocean Seal]

I started out as an "idiot" (although in reality you guys are the idiots) but now I am not trolling but I am being rude on purpose because I think it's deserved based on the complete idiocy that has overwhelmed this thread.

I was willing to give people a chance, but they've confirmed their stupidity to me by their own actions. You aren't interested in USSR, Maoism, Marxism, Juche, or anything revolutionary. You are interested in supporting things that the Democratic Party in America supports and calling it revolutionary. Basically you are undermining an understanding of capital by blaming things on conservatives and racists instead of capital.

Did you read any of the posts here? The institutions of capital are racist. Its how they maintain their power. By granting to privilege to some and taking it away from others. You don't believe in racism? You don't believe that its institutionalized, that some people make less based on race, that they are constantly harassed by the police, that the justice system is prejudiced? How about women who have their reproductive rights under attack, how about the fact that women are completely underrepresented in the bourgeoisie? You don't think that there exist power structures outside of class? That's fundamentally un-Marxist. By the way we aren't blaming things on conservatives or racists: we are blaming it on capital which uses conservative norms to maintain its current hierarchies. But being that you believe that homosexuality shouldn't be the norm I going to go ahead and say that you won't read this post and will continue to carry on with your regressive, conservative, bourgeois-supporting behavior. Carry on then.

[metal gear]

I guess the one drop rule makes people white now instead of black? Barack Obama.

Hermon Cain gaining popularity in his primary.

The fact of the matter is this. It's just as possible for white person to make less under a Black manager as vice versa. It's no longer institutionalized. It's about individuals who have prejudices.

[Azraella]

although in reality you guys are the idiots


I'm not even calling you an idiot, just reactionary(and sexist, racist, possibly more).


I think it's deserved based on the complete idiocy that has overwhelmed this thread.

Tough. You know insults get you warned here, right?



You aren't interested in USSR, Maoism, Marxism, Juche, or anything revolutionary.


I'm a member of the IWW, and have been involved with anarchism for 10 years. I couldn't care less about Marxism.



You are interested in supporting things that the Democratic Party in America supports and calling it revolutionary.


What? You mean a misogynistic, racist, and classist party? I can't stand Democrats with their false sense of moral superiority.


Basically you are undermining an understanding of capital by blaming things on conservatives and racists instead of capital.

I'm against all forms of social domination(sexism, racism, heterosexism, capitalism, statism, cissexism, ageism, ableism, etc.) You are not an anarchist if you don't stand against those things. And yes, capitalism is the most vulgar and entrenched because a capitalist could be anti-racist, feminist, and so forth.

[Ocean Seal]

I guess the one drop rule makes people white now instead of black? Barack Obama.

Hermon Cain gaining popularity in his primary.

The fact of the matter is this. It's just as possible for white person to make less under a Black manager as vice versa. It's no longer institutionalized. It's about individuals who have prejudices.
How has Barack Obama changed anything for blacks? And how can you call yourself a Marxist if it is about individuals with prejudices. Moreover, yes it is institutionalized. Look up statistics on the subject. Blacks make far less than their white counter-parts the system is racist.

[metal gear]

Yes, and I was not the first to use the term "idiot."

[metal gear]

I call myself a Marxist because I realize that class conflict and capital create material conditions that can lead to the upheaval of capitalism for socialism which can create the possibility for a more utopian "communism."

Ideologies, such as "racism," do not fundamentally control society more than economic factors themselves. When America institutionalized racism (slavery for instance), it was because of economics. It made sense to have slaves when you are running a plantation without machines.

Now America has embraced "equality" again because of economics. Now capitalism is global and needs to appeal to people in India and China (which is not capitalist but under pressure to become so).

[Renegade Saint]

I wonder why black American males are so much more likely to be arrested, charged, and imprisoned on drug charges in spite of using drugs at about the same rate as any other demographic group? I guess it's just lots of racist individual cops, nothing institutional, right metal gear?

[metal gear]

Show me the policy in the police departments that says officially "fill a larger quota of black males than the rest of the population."

What if blacks simply do more drugs or are more likely to get caught?

Not that I really care. I think that blacks who cause trouble for the system are of higher value than pretend revolutionaries on the internet. Though criminality is not my strategy of causing trouble personally.

[Azraella]

Derailing racist is derailing (http://birdofparadox.wordpress.com/derailing-for-dummies-google-cache-reconstruction/#opinion).



If you really want to excel as a Privileged Person® you need to learn to value data, statistics, research studies and empirical evidence above all things, but especiallyabove Lived Experience©.


You can pretend you are oblivious to the fact most studies have been carried out by Privileged People® and therefore carry inherent biases, and insist that the Marginalised Person™ produce “Evidence” of what they‘re claiming.

Their Lived Experience© does not count as evidence, for it is subjective and therefore worthless.
This is very important because it works in two ways: 1) it communicates to the Marginalised Person™ that their personal testament is disbelieved and of no value, causing them great hurt; and

2) it once again reinforces your privilege.

You see, the very capacity to conduct studies, collect data and write detached “fact-based” reports on it, is an inherently privileged activity. The ability to widely access this material and research it exhaustively is also inherently privileged. Privileged People® find it easier to pursue these avenues than Marginalised People™ and so once again you are reminding them you possess this privilege and reinforcing that the world at large values a system of analysis that excludes them, and values it over what their actual personal experience has been.

The process of valuing “fact” over “opinion” is one very much rooted in preserving privilege. Through this methodology, the continued pain and othering of millions of people can be ignored because it’s supported by “opinion” (emotion) and not “fact” (rationality).

It is also important because it calls on the Marginalised Person™ to do something that is simply impossible, and that is summate the entirety of their group’s experiences into a definitive example.

It is important that you establish this precedent for the next couple of steps.

[Tim Finnegan]

Show me the policy in the police departments that says officially "fill a larger quota of black males than the rest of the population."
Show me the quota in the US Constitution that says "fill a larger proportion of the legislature with rich white men than the rest of the population". Are we to conclude from this that women, people of colour, and the working class are just plain worse at politics?

[Fawkes]

YwNi8dzj0S8

[Azraella]

Show me the quota in the US Constitution that says "fill a larger proportion of the legislature with rich white men than the rest of the population". Are we to conclude from this that women, people of colour, and the working class are just plain worse at politics?


But bro! Institutional privilege doesn't exist and can't hold people back!

[Comrade-Z]

I guess Paul Robeson must be one of those few anomalous "good n-----," huh metal gear?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtU3vUOa2sw
/end sarcasm

[Rusty Shackleford]

7/10

[Chambered Word]

He got banned, fuck yeah.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

that nationalism is always reactionary and harmful to internationalism even when it isn't, etc.
I know this jackass was banned, but I figured I'd throw this in:


The working men have no country. We cannot take from them what they have not got. Since the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must rise to be the leading class of the nation, must constitute itself the nation, it is so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the word.

National differences and antagonism between peoples are daily more and more vanishing, owing to the development of the bourgeoisie, to freedom of commerce, to the world market, to uniformity in the mode of production and in the conditions of life corresponding thereto.

The supremacy of the proletariat will cause them to vanish still faster. United action, of the leading civilised countries at least, is one of the first conditions for the emancipation of the proletariat.

In proportion as the exploitation of one individual by another will also be put an end to, the exploitation of one nation by another will also be put an end to. In proportion as the antagonism between classes within the nation vanishes, the hostility of one nation to another will come to an end.

[NewLeft]

A perversion of Marxism in this thread..