Right Wingers seem to think there are no Moderate Muslims.

[tradeunionsupporter]

It doesn't matter if Moderate Muslims are minority or a majority because 50 years old most White Americans were racist even if the majority of Muslims agree with radical views it doesn't matter because this is all they know in Iran the people only know one point of view from their media and government views change 50 years old most White People in the Western World were racist and in the 1920's the Ku Klux Klan had six million members does anyone agree ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_and_moderate_movements_within_Islam

[tradeunionsupporter]

Afghanistan's Taliban: Not a valid interpretation of Islam
"The extreme position taken by the Taliban hardly deserves to be considered an 'interpretation' of Islam... It is really an aberration in violation of the most basic tenets of the faith." Dr. Laila Al-Marayati calls for a fuller understanding among Muslims of Islam as "a religion that embraces the value of women without subjecting them to sequestration."
Jay Leno and his wife Mavis donated $100,000 to the Feminist Majority Foundation to expand its campaign to end "gender apartheid" in Afghanistan. That is where, after years of civil war, the Taliban emerged as the ruling faction and has imposed harsh measures on all of Afghani society, and particularly against women, in the name of Islam. There is no question the efforts of the Lenos, the Feminist Majority and others like them are laudable. There is, however, the question of whether they will help.
There is certainly need for change. Under the Taliban, a strict gender segregation has been imposed. Women and girls are denied the right to education and adequate health care. Many women have been removed from the workplace and they are prevented from moving about freely. Violations of the dress code, which compels women to wear a "burqa" that covers her from head to toe, including a face-covering, are met with physical punishment.
But permanent change in Afghanistan can only come from a fuller understanding of Islam as a religion that embraces the value of women without subjecting them to sequestration.
Indeed, the extreme position taken by the Taliban hardly deserves to be considered an "interpretation" of Islam. That implies the position has some degree of validity, when it is really an aberration in violation of the most basic tenets of the faith.
To the Taliban and other extremists, Western -- and especially feminist -- views on women are often blamed for many of the social ills that plague society today, including exploitation of female sexuality, rape, high-risk sexual behavior, the disintegration of the family, and moral decadence in general.
Given this view, the Taliban believe their own policies are more protective of women -- and, therefore, more enlightened.
Changing the situation will require the Taliban and other Muslim leaders to look within Islam itself, rather than through a cultural lens not their own. In so doing, they would find that promoting women's rights does not mean compromising and capitulating to the "West." Rather, it means they are being consistent with their commitment to the message of Islam they seek to uphold.
Any government that professes to enforce shari'a (Islamic law) must be aware that the essential purpose of shari'a is to guarantee for every citizen five broad rights encompassing all aspects of human endeavor. These are the rights to life, intellect, family, property and religion. These rights mirror fundamental freedoms as they have been articulated in the major human rights documents of this century.
By obstructing Afghani women's enjoyment of these rights, the Taliban leadership expose their own ignorance of Islam. The right and obligation of every Muslim to education is spelled out by the Prophet Muhammed in his insistence Muslims must seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave and in his emphasis of divine rewards for those who specifically educate their daughters.
Preventing women from being cared for by male physicians -- especially when female physicians are in short supply -- contradicts rulings by Muslim jurists that rules regarding modesty are not violated when greater interests of health and safety are in play. Removing women from the workplace condemns them and their families to a life of destitution, controverting the Koran, which says "men shall have a benefit from what they earn and women shall have benefit from what they earn."
The obsession with enforcing gender segregation at the expense of women's needs reflects an imported extreme view that is most likely meant to satisfy foreign influences supporting the Taliban. By imposing strict measures against the most vulnerable segments of society, the Taliban can appear to be upholding "Islamic law" while they utterly disregard the inherent complexities involved and the checks and balances that must be applied.
The institution of corporal punishment (lashings, amputations) without due process, the suppression of minorities such as the Shi'a in Mazar-e-Sharif, and the oppression of women enable the Taliban to stake their claim as a bona fide "Islamic" state.
Exerting financial pressure in Afghanistan, engaging in diplomatic maneuvers, and contributing large sums to the Feminist Majority Foundation may have short term beneficial effects -- they at least serve to increase awareness. But the repressive policies of the Taliban are doomed to persist until they and others who share their views can appreciate the spirit of egalitarianism expressed in the Koran.

Dr. Laila Al-Marayati is a Los Angeles physician and past president of the Muslim Women's League.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/taleban8.htm

[tradeunionsupporter]

Islam & socialism

Discrimination against Muslims in Britain has increased markedly over the last few years. The horrendous, inhuman attack in Beslan, which outraged the world’s population including the vast majority of Muslims, will undoubtedly increase anti-Muslim prejudice. HANNAH SELL takes a socialist approach to how Islamaphobia can be fought, and draws out lessons from the policies of the Bolsheviks in the aftermath of the Russian revolution.

BETWEEN ONE-AND-A HALF and two million Muslim people live in Britain today. In London alone they come from 50 ethnic backgrounds. As a whole, Muslims are one of the poorest sections of British society. One in seven of economically active Muslims are unemployed, compared with one in 20 for the wider population. The two biggest Muslim communities in Britain, those originating in Pakistan and Bangladesh, are particularly impoverished. For example, in 1999, 28% of white families lived below the poverty line compared with 41% of Afro-Caribbean and 84% of Bangladeshi families.

http://www.socialismtoday.org/87/islam.html

[Dave B]

I live in a mixed community area in Manchester and in fact my next door neighbours are ‘Pakistani Muslims’ and there is another lot two doors down on the other side.

I find them really decent honest and likeable human beings and preferable to your average Anglo-Saxon worker.

I have no idea who these fanatical Islamic terrorists are, and they don’t appear to know either.

Although I am sure they do exist.

And I obviously mix with them elsewhere ie at work.

There is always a problem for the Muslim QA workers during Ramadan as I work in a food factory and part of the job is to taste the product etc.

Which is a problem on the day shifts.

It is generally all sorted out by going on nights, taking a holiday or getting your bemused mates to do it for you.

There is the problem with them as regards their attitude to women etc but from my own narrow experience I suspect that things are not quite so simple as they appear, for what it matters.

The men appear to be hen pecked to me and it is the women who rule the politics of family life and are the guardians of tradition and the conservatives when it comes to arranged marriages and all the rest of that crap etc.

[Azraella]

This might be a good counterpoint (http://carnival-of-anarchy.blogspot.com/2011/05/another-case-of-much-ado-about-nothing.html)

I have Muslim friends, that are progressive(at least socially), don't condone terrorism or religious violence, and I think are ultimately decent people(even though I don't agree with their social democrat politics). They are respectful of my beliefs and me to their's. When I was younger, I did have strong anti-Muslim prejudices because of when my brother was killed in 9-11. I grew up eventually and I have studied Islam extensively since then. I am now pretty comfortable with the religion's existence. Like Phelps with Chrisitanity, the loudest and most hateful tends to color our attitudes towards things. I am acquainted with Muslim feminists and anarchists, as well, so I have much more positive attitudes towards Islam than what I did then.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Using such logic I can conclude that there are no moderate Christians because of groups like Westero Babtist.

Obviously there is a lot to be desired in anything the right wing says.

[RGacky3]

Right Wingers need a group to hate, they need a personal enemy, before it was blacks, immigrants, now its muslims, they'll find anyone because their entire world view is based on fear.

[progressive_lefty]

I would pose another argument. When there was so much hatred directed towards Jews before and during the Holocaust, was any of that routed in the fact that Jews wanted to establish their own country with their own laws? Were fears of 'Jewish control' based on a fear of forced conversion and polygamy? When there was soo much hatred of African-Americans was any of that hatred because there was a fear that African-Americans would establish laws that are literally from the 6th Century? Further, who is the Muslim equivalent of Martin Luther King?
I can no longer offer the defence of Islam and Muslims like I would used to. I used to defend the hijab and it being worn in my own country, however it shocked me when I came across the blaring fact that the hijab is very much associated with rape - literally 'if a woman doesn't wear a hijab she may well be raped'. Now that is absolutely disgusting. I cannot for the life of me understand conservative Muslim women that demonise those women who don't wear the hijab and who literally chant 'I don't know how men hold themselves back?' You realise how primitive that sort of thinking is?
Can you understand the complete separation between the situation minority groups such as Jews and Black were in, and the situation we have Muslim groups who want Sharia law 'because Allah is God' (that's there argument?). In Australia, we have numerous muslims saying sharia is a personal thing, and earlier this year we had the over-arching group for Muslims living in Australia calling for the implementation of Sharia law. Explain that for me, if Sharia is a personal thing, then why does it need to be implemented with legal functions?
How many Muslims countries with large Christian minorities treat their fellow citizens with dignity? You can't lie to yourself if these facts are real.

[dodger]

Dave B. post 4 pretty much sums up most Britons experience of Muslims as co workers and neighbours, For reasons not explained.....they seem to like us, in a poll posted in Rev left 84% pronounced themselves happy with their 'white Brit' neighbours. So far so good. It seems as always bad news always travels faster than good news. I am an implacable foe of religious courts, we banished ours centuries ago...they became known as 'BAWDY COURTS' as they descended into farce examining in minute details the morals of citizens. Yes, of course, Sharia law is a dangerous and backward practice, which should have no place in any civilised society. And yes the silly Trotskyists of the SWP seem to embrace a tolerant approach to Sharia law (as does the vain and foolish Archbishop of Canterbury) a blind eye is turned to anti-Semitism, of some mullah allies. These are minority views , lets not fall into any traps. But there are great gains that should be credited to the trade unions - who fought for the weekend? For equal pay for women? For better wages and conditions? The USA's civil rights movement did brilliantly in terms of moving towards equality of treatment and an end to discrimination. The women's movement also made great gains, in improving women's legal, social and economic positions. You would need a top team of Lawyers to win any of those battles in a Sharia Court. One law for all.

In fact Peter Hitchens, right wingers etc. have an interest. It justifies their obsessive opposition to what is really a very, very minority trend of opinion. To me the overriding need is for there to be ONE law , transparent, for all ,citizens. In a diverse society, paramount.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The notion that there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim is of course nonsense, but equally ludicrous are the attempts to disclaim fundamentalist Islam as an "invalid interpretation". I've seen Christians try and do the same thing with their fundies, and it's no more convincing.

Nasty shit is unambiguously promoted in holy books, including the Koran and the Bible. That is why evidence is so important. Without evidence for deities, how can anyone reasonably be said to be interpreting their will?

Also, those religious moderates who pick and choose from their holy books have an additional problem - by what standard do they pick and choose which commandments to follow and which to discard?

[hatzel]

even if the majority of Muslims agree with radical views it doesn't matter because this is all they know

Is that an actual statement of fact, by the way?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'd like to add that the "no moderate Muslims" meme is not just nonsense, but dangerous nonsense. Much in the same way that homophobes try to blur all gay people into this indistinct threatening mass of faceless stereotypes in order to dehumanise them, so reactionaries of various stripes attempt to paint Muslims as a faceless brown horde, in the best Orientalist tradition.

[NineOneFour]

I'd say a lot of right wingers, at least in the US, just see Muslims as "the guys who blew up the World Trade Center" and want to engage in some sort of proxy religious war not so much because they're Christianist fascists (although they are) but because it's some sort of weird dick-measuring contest with themselves.

Saw some old guy ranting about how we should pave Iraq with bombs and I was like, yeah, man, you're saying that because you haven't been able to get it up for like 30 years and it sucks to be you and you know it.

[Deicide]

Islam is innately totalitarian and awaits the end of the world. I'll go a step further, the other major monotheistic religions, also await the annihilation of this planet, they gleefully await the return of their prophets, so the apocalypse can commence, so devine judgement can commence, and the believers can finally be granted their devine reward in a meta-physical world beyond this one.

Obviously Moderate muslims do exist, despite this fact, the fundamentalists view them with contempt since the moderates pick and mix the Qur'an. You cannot pick and mix the word of God, it's strictly forbidden. Islam is not compatible with democracy or freedom, unless it is watered down, but the extremists are ardently antagonistic towards such outcomes.

It's time for all religions to be placed in the dustbins of history.

Also, support for the far-right(tends to happen during terrible economic times) is growing all over europe, it's a frightening prospect.
And the left is incapable of dealing with it, instead, they declare people concerned with immigration and national identity as ''fascists!!!!1'' or ''racists!!!1''. It's not a healthy style of debate and it will lead to unpleasant outcomes eventually.

There's clearly something very, very unpleasant brewing in the consciousness of many europeans. I personally do not want to see the repeat of the 1920s and 1930s.

[smk]

Islam is innately totalitarian and awaits the end of the world. I'll go a step further, the other major monotheistic religions, also await the annihilation of this planet, they gleefully await the return of their prophets, so the apocalypse can commence, so devine judgement can commence, and the believers can finally be granted their devine reward in a meta-physical world beyond this one.

Obviously Moderate muslims do exist, despite this fact, the fundamentalists view them with contempt since the moderates pick and mix the Qur'an. You cannot pick and mix the word of God, it's strictly forbidden. Islam is not compatible with democracy or freedom, unless it is watered down, but the extremists are ardently antagonistic towards such outcomes.

It's time for all religions to be placed in the dustbins of history.

Also, support for the far-right(tends to happen during terrible economic times) is growing all over europe, it's a frightening prospect.
And the left is incapable of dealing with it, instead, they declare people concerned with immigration and national identity as ''fascists!!!!1'' or ''racists!!!1''. It's not a healthy style of debate and it will lead to unpleasant outcomes eventually.

There's clearly something very, very unpleasant brewing in the consciousness of many europeans. I personally do not want to see the repeat of the 1920s and 1930s.

trololololol

do you have any proof on that annihilation of the world claim, besides from evangelical christians? or the "incompatible with democracy" claim?

hah! I think it's laughable that you are scared about the rise of the extreme right and simultaneously sound just like them.

[Klaatu]

Just wondering if Right Wingers think there are any moderate Christians...

[RGacky3]

BTW, I HATE the terms moderate, or fundementalist or so on. I am a fundementalist christian in the sense that I follow the fundemental christian principles as layed out by Christ and his immediate followers in the new testiment.

The so-called christian right IS NOT fundementalist in that they totally ignore the fundemental teachings.

[NGNM85]

BTW, I HATE the terms moderate, or fundementalist or so on. I am a fundementalist christian in the sense that I follow the fundemental christian principles as layed out by Christ and his immediate followers in the new testiment.

The so-called christian right IS NOT fundementalist in that they totally ignore the fundemental teachings.

I'm going to have to disagree with you. First of all; because it is completely impossible to follow the scriptures to the letter, not simply because of the size of this document, etc., but because it is riddled with contradictions. (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html)
For this reason, and several other reasons, it's impossible to be a strict Biblical literalist. Rather; there is a spectrum of interpretations, which comport with the scripture, to varying degrees.

Second; I have to disagree and say that the religious extremists are, as a rule, the most dedicated, and exacting in applying the precepts of their respective dogma. In the case of Christianity, since you brought it up, in the scripture, Jesus repeatedly insists that the law of the Old Testament still applies, and must be followed, to the letter.

[RGacky3]

I don't follow it TO THE LETTER, I obviously don't follow the old testiment laws (since the bible says Jesus fulfilled the law). I'm not a literalist, and your right, there is a spectrum of interpretations, but if you look at hte fundementals of Jesus' teachings, you have a good amount of basic principles, THATS what I mean by fundementalist.

About Jesus insisting on the law of the Old testiment, you have to be careful with that, while he was still alive yeah, but the whole idea of the massiah was the end of the law, thats when he was talking about re-building the temple and so on, and why in Acts they essencially cancelled the mosaic law for christians.