Why 911 Truthers are supporting American Imperialism.

[tradeunionsupporter]

Why 911 Truthers are supporting American Imperialism. Im not saying 911 was a good thing but 911 did not happen for no reason or because of America's Freedom it happened because of U.S. Foreign Policy. 911 was not a Conspiracy by the Illuminati and the CIA and or the Mossad and the New World Order/One World Government to start new wars. 911 Truthers in my view cover up the real reasons as to why 911 happened.

Below are texts of Bin Laden speeches. They are worth reading because so much of the reporting about them is incomplete or distorted. It is ironical that we are told that few believed Hitler's speeches, wherein he laid out all his plans. Yet with Bin Laden, Washington made every effort to prevent them being heard or published. In particular this is because Bin Laden repeatedly states that it is American policies which he opposes, while the Bush Administration repeatedly claims that his actions are because America is "free" and "good," and because he wants to re-establish the 12th Century Muslim Empire. Note how his "bleed until bankruptcy" plan (below) certainly is progressing effectively, even beyond Bin Laden's wildest dreams. Indeed he is a master tactician worthy of Sun Tzu (http://original.antiwar.com/utley/2010/02/03/sun-tzu/), using America own strength to do incredible damage to itself, just like a jujitsu wrestler.

http://iraqwar.org/binladenquotes.htm

[TheGodlessUtopian]

America is spending themselves into the grave because Imperialism demands profits and as capitalists profits is the primary target.

I personally do not believe in any conspiracy theories.

[metal gear]

I see your point. By severing the link between cause and effect, 9/11 revisionists make 9/11 seem like Government propaganda. It makes the US Government looks bad but only with Domestic policy. If you believe the 9/11 story, then the US Government also looks bad with its foreign policy.

Basically the legitimate story portrays Osama as an extremist who fought against imperialism by using tactics that hurt innocent people. But 9/11 revisionism essentially says the Government is willing to use terrorist tactics, but it does not outline the extent to which we've angered other countries and communities around the world. 9/11 revision may attempt to get Osama off the hook for his actions, but it also undermines his motivations for committing them which did make some sense though they harmed innocents.

If believe the US staged 9/11, you could just as easily believe they did it for the "greater good" which is still negative because it is sacrificing innocents, but a distortion as well.

[dany]

9/11 truthers seek not to give support to American imperialism, they seek the truth as their name states. They don't seek to cover anything up, they seek to lay every fact bare. I think your letting your political convictions heavily color your opinion of 9/11 truthers. Also, I feel as though you've not given much of your time to studying what truthers have to say. There are very compelling arguments against the official 9/11 story.

[Franz Fanonipants]

every single conspiracy theory is inherently reactionary because they all discard any sort of critique of capital to weave a hysterical web.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

9/11 truthers seek not to give support to American imperialism, they seek the truth as their name states. They don't seek to cover anything up, they seek to lay every fact bare.

Oh, bollocks. Their faulty reasoning and selective use of "evidence" has nothing to do with the pursuit of truth.


I think your letting your political convictions heavily color your opinion of 9/11 truthers.

There are good reasons for people on both sides of the political spectrum to have a problem with such conspiracy babble.


Also, I feel as though you've not given much of your time to studying what truthers have to say. There are very compelling arguments against the official 9/11 story.

Like what? There are all sorts of 9/11 conspiracy theories, from the plausible but unfalsifiable assertion that they allowed it to happen, to the fucking kooky anti-matter bomb shit.

[SemperFidelis]

Bin Laden was a fucking monster, not some master tactician.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Bin Laden was a fucking monster, not some master tactician.

yes. a man-monster. with knife hands.

[thefinalmarch]

9/11 truthers seek not to give support to American imperialism, they seek the truth as their name states. They don't seek to cover anything up, they seek to lay every fact bare. I think your letting your political convictions heavily color your opinion of 9/11 truthers. Also, I feel as though you've not given much of your time to studying what truthers have to say. There are very compelling arguments against the official 9/11 story.
shitstorm imminent

[SemperFidelis]

yes. a man-monster. with knife hands.

lol, well it's not like anyone can even look up to him. He's a reactionary, hardly a socialist. He also condones the killing of innocents including the American proletariat who have nothing to do with their government's actions as well as placing his own people in danger with the placement of IEDs in public property.

My convoy was stopped one time by a bunch of Afghans dragging a kid. They dragged the little fucker towards us because he had planted an IED in a soccer field and blew up a bunch of little kids. We took good care of him.

[Geiseric]

Jeez that's brutal. anyways, bin laden is as reactionary as any nationalist. I don't see any reason why a leftist should support him, taliban, ghadaffi, ben ali, saddam hussein, or any other nationalists/dictators in the middle east. Supporting reactionary groups hurts our rep.

[Judicator]

Does anyone actually believe someone would kill themselves because they "hate freedom?"

[tradeunionsupporter]

I just don't agree with Alex Jone's views on 911.

[danyboy27]

lol, well it's not like anyone can even look up to him. He was a reactionary, hardly a socialist. He was also condoning the killing of innocents including the American proletariat who have nothing to do with their government's actions as well as placing his own people in danger with the placement of IEDs in public property.

My convoy was stopped one time by a bunch of Afghans dragging a kid. They dragged the little fucker towards us because he had planted an IED in a soccer field and blew up a bunch of little kids. We took good care of him.

Fixed.

also, you are an assole.

[Franz Fanonipants]

lol, well it's not like anyone can even look up to him. He's a reactionary, hardly a socialist. He also condones the killing of innocents including the American proletariat who have nothing to do with their government's actions as well as placing his own people in danger with the placement of IEDs in public property.

My convoy was stopped one time by a bunch of Afghans dragging a kid. They dragged the little fucker towards us because he had planted an IED in a soccer field and blew up a bunch of little kids. We took good care of him.

you know all of my military friends agree on one thing: marines are assholes.

and goddamn but you guys never prove any of that line of thought wrong.

[SemperFidelis]

Asshole? Yeah, okay like you know what its like to be in country.

[Blackscare]

Well, whether you're an asshole or not, you sure are an idiot for thinking that acknowledging that somebody is a strategic genius means "looking up to" said person.

You're a military man, you should understand that. But go ahead, keep throwing around your moralistic bullshit because you don't want acknowledge that you're over there murdering children because Osama wanted you to. Seems to me that his plan is working out just fine.

[Blake's Baby]

@ SF: You're right. Because we don't think that sailing to foreign parts and killing other people at the behest of a cabal of millionaires in the name of a piece of coloured cloth is a reasonable thing to do, we don't tend to often get ourselves into situations where people are trying to kill us. Funny that.

[SemperFidelis]

Well, whether you're an asshole or not, you sure are an idiot for thinking that acknowledging that somebody is a strategic genius means "looking up to" said person.

You're a military man, you should understand that. But go ahead, keep throwing around your moralistic bullshit because you don't want acknowledge that you're over there murdering children because Osama wanted you to. Seems to me that his plan is working out just fine.

I never said that, I think you're the idiot for assuming things. He's hardly a strategic genius. Hurrdurr, take advantage of religiously blinded people and tell them they're fighting for god.

[NGNM85]

Why 911 Truthers are supporting American Imperialism. Im not saying 911 was a good thing but 911 did not happen for no reason or because of
America's Freedom it happened because of U.S. Foreign Policy.

Yes, and no. Yes, U.S. foreign policy has had a generally socially destructive impact on the Middle East. However; this analysis is incomplete.


Below are texts of Bin Laden speeches. They are worth reading because so much of the reporting about them is incomplete or distorted. It is ironical that we are told that few believed Hitler's speeches, wherein he laid out all his plans. Yet with Bin Laden,
Washington made every effort to prevent them being heard or published. In particular this is because Bin Laden repeatedly states that it is American policies which he opposes, while the Bush Administration repeatedly claims that his actions are because America is "free" and "good," and because he wants to re-establish the 12th Century Muslim Empire. Note how his "bleed until bankruptcy" plan (below) certainly is progressing effectively, even beyond Bin Laden's wildest dreams. Indeed he is a master tactician worthy of Sun Tzu (http://original.antiwar.com/utley/2010/02/03/sun-tzu/), using America own strength to do incredible damage to itself, just like a jujitsu wrestler.

http://iraqwar.org/binladenquotes.htm (http://iraqwar.org/binladenquotes.htm)

We also need to look at Bin Laden’s output as a whole, and also look at his actions. First of all; Bin Laden, himself, at least before he decided to become a terrorist, had absolutely no experience, whatsoever, of exploitation or oppression, least of all by foreign powers, nor do his actions display this supposed dedication. By all evidence his only interest in the plight of the Palestinians was as fodder for rabble-rousing. His grievances with the government of Saudi Arabia have nothing to do with human rights, and are as religious, as they are political. Osama bin Laden was absolutely dedicated to, as stated in al-Qaeda’s official memorandum, installing a pan-national Wahabbist Caliphate, which is nothing if not the definition of imperialism. That bin Laden was a failed imperialist is irrelevant. The people of the Middle East have many very real grievances with the West, America in particular, but, quite plainly, these were not the primary motivation for bin Laden, or many others like him. They simply exploit these grievances to achieve their own ideological goals.


That said; the '9/11 Truth' phenomenon is counterproductive, sad, and symptomatic of a deeper malaise afflicting our society.

[Blake's Baby]

... Hurrdurr, take advantage of religiously blinded people and tell them they're fighting for god.

That come from the Marine handbook does it?

In God We Trust, One Nation Under God, God Bless America and all that jazz.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Asshole? Yeah, okay like you know what its like to be in country.

i don't need to know what its like "in country" to know you're an asshole. and i have friends who have been in country in both imperialist bullshit wars who don't talk like you.

[Franz Fanonipants]

haha ngnm continues being terrible itt

[RED DAVE]

Hurrdurr, take advantage of religiously blinded people and tell them they're fighting for god.Kind of like the US armed forces, huh?

From the Halls of Montzuma,
To the shores of Tripoli,
We'll kill a Commie for Jesus,
1 - hay - 2 - hay - 3!

RED DAVE

[Os Cangaceiros]

The 911 conspiracy theories would be more credible if our government didn't prove itself to be utterly inept in literally everything it does. Someone I know put it well when he said that the level of preperation and execution to pull 9-11 off from "the inside" would require a degree of logistical planning that would put Napoleon to shame, and personel who's loyalty would make the Japanese imperial army look like a bunch of slackers by comparison. They fake 9-11 but they can't fabricate any goddamn WMD evidence in Iraq?!

Unless...THAT'S JUST A FRONT SO PEOPLE WON'T THINK THEY CAUSED 9/11! The plot thickens...:blink:

[Tychus]

Right, some religious psychotics with scraggly beards living in a cave were able to have NORAD stand down and mastermind the bombings of our trade centers? I love how the official explanation is never labeled a conspiracy theory, but the very pertinent and compelling questions about things just not scientifically adding up are "conspiracy theories". LMAO!

I urge you fools to take a keen look at history such as the sinking of the mauritania in WW1, the fabricated attack on pearl harbor in WW2 and the fabricated gulf of tonkin incident to start Vietnam and still tell me that the CIA didn't need an excuse to get us into this war, to keep us in fear and enable oppressive PATRIOT acts.

The official story you've been told is the bullshit conspiracy theory. All if not most of all those supposed 19 9/11 hijackers are still alive.

Also, I do not approve of neoliberalism or the system you all presently hate in America right now. Dismissing 9/11 truthers on the grounds that they might not all share your political views is a rather weak move IMO.

[SemperFidelis]

Kind of like the US armed forces, huh?

From the Halls of Montzuma,
To the shores of Tripoli,
We'll kill a Commie for Jesus,
1 - hay - 2 - hay - 3!

RED DAVE

LMFAO. Fuck yes.

[Blake's Baby]

Right, some religious psychotics with scraggly beards living in a cave were able to have NORAD stand down and mastermind the bombings of our trade centers? ...

You fool.

'Religious psychotics...' well, a religious psychotic got himself elected head of the most powerful nation on earth at the same time, so that's no bar to being in a position to fuck things up.

'...with scraggly beards...' well, no-one with a beard ever managed anything, did they? We all know facial hair is an indicator of incompetence.

'...living in a cave...' I think you're mixing cause and effect here, Bin Laden went into hiding in a cave after the attacks, as I recall. Before that Al Q'aeda were operating pretty openly in Afghanistan with the support of the Afghan government, the Pakistani Intelligence Services and the CIA. That's how Clinton was able to sent Cruise Missiles to attack their 'alleged bases' in the 1990s. Remember when America armed the Mujihadeen against the USSR? They used Bin Laden's network to funnel millions of dollars into Islamist groups in Afghanistan and then kept channels open. Remember when the war was happening and the Americans kept saying they wanted to deal with 'moderate Taliban'? They were America's allies for 20 years and had massive injections of money and know-how, much of it (for the first 15 years or so anyway) funnelled through Al Q'aeda. Bin Laden was the multi-millionaire son of an oil and construction dynasty (like Bush) - members of his family had the contracts for constructing American military bases for fuck's sake. So; these aren't just goat-herders living under blankets we're talking about here, but a 20-years-old, well funded network of terrorists with international links and a lot of money.



...
I urge you fools to take a keen look at history such as the sinking of the mauritania in WW1, the fabricated attack on pearl harbor in WW2 and the fabricated gulf of tonkin incident to start Vietnam and still tell me that the CIA didn't need an excuse to get us into this war, to keep us in fear and enable oppressive PATRIOT acts...

It's all about you, isn't it? Can't believe that some radical Islamists actually think that America is the greatest threat to peace in the world, can't believe that some brown people actually fucked you up, it has to be an inside job. Arrogant fuckwit.

That's not to say that the American state hasn't capitalised on the situation. But so has, for example, the Chinese state (which also has links to the Pakistani state and Al Q'aeda) - did they do it? Did the Russians, who used the 'War on Terror' as an excuse to further prosecute their own war in Chechnya? Was it the British, who were very keen to flex their muscles in Afghnistan and Iraq? Don't confuse trying to turn a situation to one's advantage with instigating it.


...
Also, I do not approve of neoliberalism or the system you all presently hate in America right now. Dismissing 9/11 truthers on the grounds that they might not all share your political views is a rather weak move IMO.

Your opinion isn't worth jack shit though, is it? You believe stuff that to the rest of us is obviously paranoid delusion. Until you get better, all your judgements are suspect because you can't tell truth from the shit of a skunk.

[Tychus]

You fool.

'Religious psychotics...' well, a religious psychotic got himself elected head of the most powerful nation on earth at the same time, so that's no bar to being in a position to fuck things up.

'...with scraggly beards...' well, no-one with a beard ever managed anything, did they? We all know facial hair is an indicator of incompetence.

'...living in a cave...' I think you're mixing cause and effect here, Bin Laden went into hiding in a cave after the attacks, as I recall. Before that Al Q'aeda were operating pretty openly in Afghanistan with the support of the Afghan government, the Pakistani Intelligence Services and the CIA. That's how Clinton was able to sent Cruise Missiles to attack their 'alleged bases' in the 1990s. Remember when America armed the Mujihadeen against the USSR? They used Bin Laden's network to funnel millions of dollars into Islamist groups in Afghanistan and then kept channels open. Remember when the war was happening and the Americans kept saying they wanted to deal with 'moderate Taliban'? They were America's allies for 20 years and had massive injections of money and know-how, much of it (for the first 15 years or so anyway) funnelled through Al Q'aeda. Bin Laden was the multi-millionaire son of an oil and construction dynasty (like Bush) - members of his family had the contracts for constructing American military bases for fuck's sake. So; these aren't just goat-herders living under blankets we're talking about here, but a 20-years-old, well funded network of terrorists with international links and a lot of money.

I'm well aware. My sarcasm is largely instigated by the condescending sarcasm misinformed fools like yourself feel so free to spout against skeptics like myself who get attacked simply for asking questions that shouldn't be hard to answer if you were so sure about the theory your oppressive government spoon-fed you.

Just like you find it ridiculous that our government would lie to us for the 101st time and indeed bomb their own civilians, I find it ridiculous that in 2000 NORAD intercepted would-be terrorists 67 times with 100% accuracy and then on 9/11 they would fail 4 times in one day.


It's all about you, isn't it?

What?


Can't believe that some radical Islamists actually think that America is the greatest threat to peace in the world,

America IS the greatest threat to peace in the world.


can't believe that some brown people actually fucked you up, it has to be an inside job. Arrogant fuckwit.

I can't believe that a peaceful, secular country viscerally hated by Al-Qaida like Iraq would actually commit 9/11. If YOU believe they pulled it off, it looks to me you're the one with the paranoid delusions. Why the fuck were we in Iraq for 8 years again?


That's not to say that the American state hasn't capitalised on the situation. But so has, for example, the Chinese state (which also has links to the Pakistani state and Al Q'aeda) - did they do it? Did the Russians, who used the 'War on Terror' as an excuse to further prosecute their own war in Chechnya? Was it the British, who were very keen to flex their muscles in Afghnistan and Iraq? Don't confuse trying to turn a situation to one's advantage with instigating it.

Russia and Britain both falsely confirmed the existence of WMDs in Iraq. Russia did it specifically with the intention of making the USA go to war. Payback for their funding of Al-Qaida during the Soviet-Afghan war.


Your opinion isn't worth jack shit though, is it? You believe stuff that to the rest of us is obviously paranoid delusion. Until you get better, all your judgements are suspect because you can't tell truth from the shit of a skunk.

Really? To accept the idea of two towers collapsing, one floor into another at a time at the rate of gravity would be denying the basic science of physics in favor of fantasy. Hmm, sounds pretty close to delusional and paranoid to me.

How does a building with 100 floors of reinforced steel columns collapse to dust? How did building 7 collapse all of a sudden because of some mild fire? Why does it all blatantly resemble a controlled demolition? Qualified demolition squad have confirmed this anomaly, especially building #7 that has the classic "wedge" as it is collapsing, standard to conventional practice in demolition, where the building's central support column is destroyed to make it collapse onto itself for minimal collateral damage in mind.

A leftist on a leftist site tells me the USA wouldn't enact another gulf of tonkin incident to force us into this war and keep the working class oppressed, and yet tells me that I'm the one supporting American imperialism? Well fuck me man, this is irony raised to an indefinite level.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXxynEDpwrA

History Channel did a good debunking of these theories.I can't seem to find the videos but my opinion is that is was not a deliberate act on the part of the U.S government.

[Blake's Baby]

...

I can't believe that a peaceful, secular country viscerally hated by Al-Qaida like Iraq would actually commit 9/11. If YOU believe they pulled it off, it looks to me you're the one with the paranoid delusions. Why the fuck were we in Iraq for 8 years again?...

What the fuck has Iraq got to do with anything? Do you think Saddam Hussein had anything to do with the WTC attacks? I don't. If you think I do, it's yet another indication that you can't tell reality from fantasy.

Not sure how you get that Iraq was 'peaceful' and 'secular' though, given that in 1980 Saddam Hussein started a war with Iran that killed 1.5 million people, gassed the Kurds in 1988 with German poison gas paid for by the US, invaded Kuwait in 1990, brutally suppressed the Marsh Arabs on the basis of their supposed ties to Iran and from 1996 embraced Islamism as an anti-American ideology. But as you seem to have a weird notion that anyone America doesn't like must be super-awesome, I'll tell you stright. You have watched too many cowboy movies or possibly played too much Halo, sometimes there aren't good guys and bad guys there are just different competing groups of bad guys.



...
Russia and Britain both falsely confirmed the existence of WMDs in Iraq. Russia did it specifically with the intention of making the USA go to war. Payback for their funding of Al-Qaida during the Soviet-Afghan war.


And? Are you under the impression that I said at any point that governments across the world don't tell lies to further their interests?


...
A leftist on a leftist site tells me the USA wouldn't enact another gulf of tonkin incident to force us into this war and keep the working class oppressed, and yet tells me that I'm the one supporting American imperialism? Well fuck me man, this is irony raised to an indefinite level.

Oh yeah? Who was that then, because I said no such thing? The US government is perfectly capable of lying to justify war, covering up its crimes and anything else it feels like doing. Seriously. Go and read some stuff about geopolitics. Preferably things that aren't written by lunatics.

[Tychus]

What the fuck has Iraq got to do with anything?

Everything, you dumbass! The entire pretense for the war was hunting down WMDs and "countering terrorism". It wouldn't be valid without a major incident of course, just like nobody wanted to have anything to do with Vietnam at first.


Do you think Saddam Hussein had anything to do with the WTC attacks? I don't. If you think I do, it's yet another indication that you can't tell reality from fantasy.

No, I don't think he did. Republi****s disagree, however.


Not sure how you get that Iraq was 'peaceful' and 'secular' though, given that in 1980 Saddam Hussein started a war with Iran that killed 1.5 million people, gassed the Kurds in 1988 with German poison gas paid for by the US, invaded Kuwait in 1990, brutally suppressed the Marsh Arabs on the basis of their supposed ties to Iran and from 1996 embraced Islamism as an anti-American ideology.

I'm surprised you give a shit about fascistic, oppressive Iran that rightfully should be attacked and defeated. Iraqi people enjoyed a lot more prosperity than Iran. The women's dress codes are more loose and they get free education. Also, Iraq is one of the few muslim countries that are tolerant of Christians and allows them to openly preach and practice their religion.


But as you seem to have a weird notion that anyone America doesn't like must be super-awesome, I'll tell you stright. You have watched too many cowboy movies or possibly played too much Halo, sometimes there aren't good guys and bad guys there are just different competing groups of bad guys.

I didn't say Saddam was a good guy. However, Iraq, besides Libya was one of the best, freest and friendliest muslim country in the world, yet they were the first ones to be attacked.


And? Are you under the impression that I said at any point that governments across the world don't tell lies to further their interests?

No, I'm under the impression that you give into them too much and ignore basic inconsistencies in their propoganda.


Oh yeah? Who was that then, because I said no such thing?

This entire thread was about undermining the 9/11 truth movement on the grounds that they support American imperialism and ignore capital being an important part of the incident, something that I've never heard a 9/11 truther portend.

Many 9/11 truthers are leftists, just like you.


The US government is perfectly capable of lying to justify war, covering up its crimes and anything else it feels like doing.

And that is exactly what they did on 9/11!


Seriously. Go and read some stuff about geopolitics. Preferably things that aren't written by lunatics.

I'm more analytical-minded than abstract-minded and thus I prefer science over philosophy. Too many physical inconsistencies on the hour of 9/11 deter me from believing that jet fuel by itself caused a tower with 40 massive reinforced steel columns to collapse to dust at the speed of gravity.

Does not compute. Does not compute. Thermite detected, thermite detected.

[ckaihatsu]

---





Saddam Hussein [...] invaded Kuwait in 1990








Questions About the Supposed Iraqi Threat to Saudi Arabia in l990--Aerial Photos were Never Released!!

FROM PRESS REPORTS in 1990 by Jon Basil Utley

FLASH See Christian Science Monitor update for new confirmation. And April Glaspie testimony and Tim Russert asked Powell on Meet the Press (2/16/03) about lies about tanks on Saudi border. The Guardian confirms missing photos 2/5/03

Unanswered Questions About the Supposed Iraqi Threat to Saudi Arabia in l990

One of the main reasons for America’s going to war against Iraq in 1990 was because the White House declared that there were satellite photos showing Iraqi tanks and troops massing on the borders of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, threatening invasion of Saudi Arabia. The reports fueled the war hysteria and frightened the Saudis, who then agreed to full cooperation with US military forces. They were a major reason used to convince the American people of the justification for war to protect and defend the oil supplies so vital to the West.

Yet the supposed aerial photos proving the accusation were never released. First the Pentagon said they had to remain secret because of the war effort. Then the White House kept hedging and finally the issue died down with the supposed photos still not released. Iraq all along denied that it had any intention of threatening Saudi Arabia and was only reuniting itself with its (claimed) province of Kuwait. See link below about Russian satellite photos showing no large concentrations of troops.

[...]

http://www.iraqwar.org/bush.htm

[Blake's Baby]

Everything, you dumbass! The entire pretense for the war was hunting down WMDs and "countering terrorism". It wouldn't be valid without a major incident of course, just like nobody wanted to have anything to do with Vietnam at first...

Are you seriously claiming that the US blew up the WTC in 2001 in order to invade Iraq in 2003? Are you mental?




...



I'm surprised you give a shit about fascistic, oppressive Iran that rightfully should be attacked and defeated...

I'm not surprised you don't give a fuck about millions dead because you're a piece of human sewage. Iraq attacked Iran because America wanted Saddam Hussein to put the 'Islamic Republic' in its place, and because in the early period the Iranian working class was actually posing a threat to the stability of the region. Saddam Hussein was until the late 1980s a stooge of the CIA. So, there you go, yet again you're supporting American Imperialism's manoeuvres and at the same time being a fucking repugnant excuse for a human being calling for the Iranian (and indeed Iraqi) working class to be murdered by a butcher.


... Iraq is one of the few muslim countries that are tolerant of Christians and allows them to openly preach and practice their religion...

And I give a fuck about the tolerance of one religious minority over another because?


...

I didn't say Saddam was a good guy. However, Iraq, besides Libya was one of the best, freest and friendliest muslim country in the world, yet they were the first ones to be attacked...

'the first ones to be attacked' means what exactly? The USA attacked Iran in 1980, invaded Lebanon in 1982, attacked Libya in 1986, attacked Iraq repeatedly between 1990-2003, attacked Somalia in 1996, attacked Afghanistan and Sudan in 1999, attacked Afghanistan in 2001, invaded Iraq in 2003...

The USA has a history of attacking and invading Islamic or majority-Moslem states. Deal with it.



...

I'm more analytical-minded than abstract-minded and thus I prefer science over philosophy. Too many physical inconsistencies on the hour of 9/11 deter me from believing that jet fuel by itself caused a tower with 40 massive reinforced steel columns to collapse to dust at the speed of gravity.

Does not compute. Does not compute. Thermite detected, thermite detected.

So you attempt to understand the history of the world through engineering? Good luck with that.

[RGacky3]

Everything, you dumbass! The entire pretense for the war was hunting down WMDs and "countering terrorism". It wouldn't be valid without a major incident of course, just like nobody wanted to have anything to do with Vietnam at first.


Ok, so the US government, to invade Iraq, picked a bunch of dudes from Saudi Arabia, to train in Afghanistan, then plan in Germany to attack the world trade center.

So they were so Stupid they could'nt plan this without any connection to Iraq, but they were genius enough to do an elaborate hoax, involving many many different levels of government to attack in the middle of New York.

But they could'nt photoshop WMDs .....

This is the sort of plan that has a HUGE probability it went wrong, and if it did go wrong would spark a revolution.

Its just so rediculously improbably its amazing anyone would buy it.


I'm more analytical-minded than abstract-minded and thus I prefer science over philosophy.

There is no distinction between analytical methodology and abstract concepts, tons of physics is abstract, yet it uses analytical methodology. Your missusing the terms.


Too many physical inconsistencies on the hour of 9/11 deter me from believing that jet fuel by itself caused a tower with 40 massive reinforced steel columns to collapse to dust at the speed of gravity.


You sound exactly like a non-biologist trying to argue against evolutoin based on "the scientific data" against biologists, its silly.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I have a question for you, Tychus.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that 9/11 was a setup and that convincing evidence has been presented unambiguously to support that.

What do you think the US government would do in such a situation? What has been the fallout every time a government conspiracy of any kind has been unmasked?

[Nox]

Nobody knows exactly what happened on 9/11 (e.g. who flew those planes in to the building) but there is very little evidence to support any theory except a few al-qaeda video clips where they admit to doing it.

It certainly wouldn't surprise me if the US government was in control of those planes, they certainly had the motive to do it. But then again, there's no evidence to prove that.

[RGacky3]

It certainly wouldn't surprise me if the US government was in control of those planes, they certainly had the motive to do it. But then again, there's no evidence to prove that.

No they did'nt have the motive ... What motive? To start a war??? WITH SAUDI ARABIA??? Its an idiotic argument. Read my post, if they wanted to start a war in Iraq, there are so many other pretenses they could have used, other than this idiotic political suicide that would have been almost impossible to pull off and extremely dangerous.

Not only is there no evidence to prove it, there is plenty of extremely good reasons to believe that it was NOT the US government and plenty of reasons to believe it WAS Al Queida.

[Blake's Baby]

Did they need a pretext to start a war with Iraq, given that they'd been bombing it for 12 years? All they needed to do was say 'look, this guy's taking the piss, he's a mass murderer, he's trying to build WMDs, he's oppressing his own people and he's in violation of a number of UN resolutions'. Which is exactly what they did do. And, funnily enough it didn't get the UN resolution they wanted. Oh, foolish American bourgeoisise. If only they'd folow more planes into more towers, the rest of the world might have been fooled as much as we have.

Man, truthers make me spit tacks into my cornflakes.

Sorry Gacky, if you got hit with any flying slightly milky tacks (probably, secretly thrown by the CIA because, you know, it's all about the American Government you know).

[Tychus]

Are you seriously claiming that the US blew up the WTC in 2001 in order to invade Iraq in 2003? Are you mental?

Are you seriously claiming that some terrorists made two large towers with massive steel columns collapse to dust at freefall speed with jet fuel? Are YOU mental?

To answer your question, 9/11 was an orchestrated incident not just to invade Iraq but to instigate the whole new fearmongering era known as "the war on terror".

Afghanistan had the worlds largest opium (heroin) fields, a major source of wealth for American contractors since the US-backed mujahideen won the Soviet-Afghan war. Then in 2000 the Taliban rose to power and eradicated the opium fields.

The Afghanistan invasion plans were on Bush's desk 2 days before 9/11. Hmm.


I'm not surprised you don't give a fuck about millions dead because you're a piece of human sewage.

If there are certain types of millions that I won't ever miss, it would be misogynistic, oppressive, dumb, racist, impulsive, inbred pieces of shit that just fuck like rabbits and revolve their entire culture around controlling women and treating them like baby-making machines.

Fuck Iran, may they all be eradicated. The fucking sick animals.


Iraq attacked Iran because America wanted Saddam Hussein to put the 'Islamic Republic' in its place, and because in the early period the Iranian working class was actually posing a threat to the stability of the region. Saddam Hussein was until the late 1980s a stooge of the CIA. So, there you go, yet again you're supporting American Imperialism's manoeuvres and at the same time being a fucking repugnant excuse for a human being calling for the Iranian (and indeed Iraqi) working class to be murdered by a butcher.

The US were selling weapons and supporting Saddam, yes, to try to corrupt him and get him to come around, which he never did. He never accepted their bribes and cared only to use his oil wealth for the betterment of his people. Al-Qaida hated Saddam because of his socialist agenda and deemed him a threat to their interests.

Show me your lovely ultra-conservative Iranian politician that pushed for women's equality as much as Saddam.


And I give a fuck about the tolerance of one religious minority over another because?

Iraq was a secular, friendly country and Saddam is not nearly the character US propoganda machines have distorted him as. Try being a Christian in Iran and see how prosperous and free your life will be. Dumbshit.


'the first ones to be attacked' means what exactly? The USA attacked Iran in 1980, invaded Lebanon in 1982, attacked Libya in 1986, attacked Iraq repeatedly between 1990-2003, attacked Somalia in 1996, attacked Afghanistan and Sudan in 1999, attacked Afghanistan in 2001, invaded Iraq in 2003...

I accept your correction. The point was, why the fuck attack Iraq? Oh wait, that answer is obvious...


So you attempt to understand the history of the world through engineering? Good luck with that.

It will be an obstacle, yes. A loss that will reap exponential benefits in the long run. I don't apologize for it.

[Tychus]

Ok, so the US government, to invade Iraq, picked a bunch of dudes from Saudi Arabia, to train in Afghanistan, then plan in Germany to attack the world trade center.

Invasion of Iraq wasn't the only goal. Think PATRIOT act, destroying civil liberties, keeping the working class submissive, scared and ignorant.

They did not need those supposed suicide bombers anyway. Several of them are still alive. Remember how they reported identifying one of them by digging up a passport from all the debris at ground zero? A passport that survived what steel couldn't. Riiiiiiiight.......


So they were so Stupid they could'nt plan this without any connection to Iraq, but they were genius enough to do an elaborate hoax, involving many many different levels of government to attack in the middle of New York.

Elaborate? Nigga please, they failed epically because they apparently underestimated the power of free flow information. People are smartening up, go figure.


But they could'nt photoshop WMDs .....

No need, Britain and Russia took care of that.


This is the sort of plan that has a HUGE probability it went wrong, and if it did go wrong would spark a revolution.

Circular reasoning there, bro. The US government has committed so many damn crimes, fucked up the livelihoods of millions and responsible for so many genocides yet nobody does shit about it. Now we have these feeble, peaceful Occupy protests where victims of this sick country are politely and quietly asking for their rights. Pathetic...


Its just so rediculously improbably its amazing anyone would buy it.

I'm more amazed you don't think the governments hilarious theories of jet fuel dusting up 100 kilotons of steel yet miraculously doing nothing to a passport should be exempt completely from any credibility.

They lied to you. Get over it.


There is no distinction between analytical methodology and abstract concepts, tons of physics is abstract, yet it uses analytical methodology. Your missusing the terms.

You're confused. Theory =/= hypothesis. Physics is the most rigorous example of science in action. Abstract, descriptive pseudosciences like "social sciences", psychology, astrology and other dubious fields of research with no core theories or properly controlled experimental procedures are not in the domain of science. They are in the domain of philosophy, or what I like to call "bullshit".


You sound exactly like a non-biologist trying to argue against evolutoin based on "the scientific data" against biologists, its silly.

False analogy. Evolution is a mix of theory and hypothesis. So far, only bacteria have been proven to evolve in controlled tests. We only have fossil records of creatures with similar skeletal structures to ours which we believe are our descendants, but we just assume they "evolved" over time. There is no official explanation where we came from and how we evolved, because there is no way to carry out such an experiment in a reasonable timeframe.

Creationists, diametrically retarded as they are, believe they can debunk evolution by attacking its source, Charles Darwin. They have a warped view of science and believe it is like state law - just a series of technicalities that you can manipulate for a specified goal. They believe that if they can pull a geological science trip to find evidence of a huge flood that happened 10,000 years ago then it would validate the "great flood" talked about in the Bible and by such, disprove evolution because it is an opponent of the Bible, as they perceive it to be. And continuing from this false premise, if something in the Bible is proven right by scientific evidence, then that automatically proves everything in the evolution theory wrong.

To say they are confused is a euphemism.

[Tychus]

I have a question for you, Tychus.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that 9/11 was a setup and that convincing evidence has been presented unambiguously to support that.

What do you think the US government would do in such a situation? What has been the fallout every time a government conspiracy of any kind has been unmasked?

What happened after the Gulf of Tonkin was proven to be a setup? I wasn't alive during that era. Tell me, what happened?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Creationists, diametrically retarded as they are, believe they can debunk evolution by attacking its source, Charles Darwin.

Language please.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

What happened after the Gulf of Tonkin was proven to be a setup? I wasn't alive during that era. Tell me, what happened?

Sweet fuck-all, at least as far as the rest of the Vietnam War was concerned, which didn't end until eleven years later. Which is exactly my point. Even if you uncover "T3H K0NZP1R4CY!!!!111!!!!11!", the US government will not crumble or even tremble. It is powerful enough to just bully its way past any criticism and/or exposure to their shortcomings, at least from anyone not toting nuclear weapons.

If you're powerful like the US government you don't need to faff around with conspiracy bullshit. You can simply bribe, bully, propagandise and cajole people into doing what you want them to do.

[The Young Pioneer]

Tychus, seriously?

Aside from the use of "retarded" and "nigga," I find you seriously offensive to this forum at large. Plus, your argument has yet to be backed up with facts, you just keep asking rhetorical questions no one else feels they should be assed enough to answer.

You originally claim:


All if not most of all those supposed 19 9/11 hijackers are still alive.

...then you backtrack to only "several" having survived, a few posts later. Which is it, and where is the proof of this?


The Afghanistan invasion plans were on Bush's desk 2 days before 9/11. Hmm.

So the US, in an effort to have a reason to invade the Middle East, is capable of creating a scheme for the 9/11 attacks in two days?


If there are certain types of millions that I won't ever miss, it would be misogynistic, oppressive, dumb, racist, impulsive, inbred pieces of shit that just fuck like rabbits and revolve their entire culture around controlling women and treating them like baby-making machines.

Fuck Iran, may they all be eradicated. The fucking sick animals.

Now there's the American spirit your posts were thus far lacking! Why is it okay to approve of eradicating millions of average citizens based on their cultural ties? The adjectives you've used to stereotype the people of an entire nation is grossly overgeneralising. That kind of discrimination doesn't seem very leftist IMO.

Calm down, dude.

[RGacky3]

Invasion of Iraq wasn't the only goal. Think PATRIOT act, destroying civil liberties, keeping the working class submissive, scared and ignorant.


A: The patriot act was done with HUGE resistance, they could have passed it anyway.

B: They could have done something a lot less stupid, dangerous, impossible and insane to pass the patriot act.

C: Just because they took advantage of a crisis in no way is evidance that they caused it.


They did not need those supposed suicide bombers anyway. Several of them are still alive. Remember how they reported identifying one of them by digging up a passport from all the debris at ground zero? A passport that survived what steel couldn't. Riiiiiiiight.......


I don't remember that, could you show me where they claimed that?

Also this is a job for scientists adn engineers, not interent conspiracy theorists.


Elaborate? Nigga please, they failed epically because they apparently underestimated the power of free flow information. People are smartening up, go figure.


Elaborate yes .... To pul something like this off they would need engineers to keep their mouth shut, the military, several levels of government, they would need to bet that Al Queda would accept resonsibility, if this was an inside job it would habe been extremely elaborate.

Yet they forgot to plan making the hijackers not Saudi arabians :laugh:, nor could they photoshop some WMDs.


No need, Britain and Russia took care of that.


No, they did'nt, they never presented proper evidence.


Circular reasoning there, bro. The US government has committed so many damn crimes, fucked up the livelihoods of millions and responsible for so many genocides yet nobody does shit about it. Now we have these feeble, peaceful Occupy protests where victims of this sick country are politely and quietly asking for their rights. Pathetic...


Every state has commited crimes.

No one is arguing that the US would'nt do crimes.

What we are arguing is that all evidence and logic points to that this particular one was NOT done by the US, its extremely inprobable that the US would commit an idiotic attack like this.


I'm more amazed you don't think the governments hilarious theories of jet fuel dusting up 100 kilotons of steel yet miraculously doing nothing to a passport should be exempt completely from any credibility.

They lied to you. Get over it.


I don't believe that 911 was done by Al Queda because the US told me they did, I believe it because all the evidence points to it.


You're confused. Theory =/= hypothesis. Physics is the most rigorous example of science in action. Abstract, descriptive pseudosciences like "social sciences", psychology, astrology and other dubious fields of research with no core theories or properly controlled experimental procedures are not in the domain of science. They are in the domain of philosophy, or what I like to call "bullshit".


Errr no, most of quantom physics has not been empircally proven, its proven mathematically, which is an abstraction, they havn't been proven empirically because its extremely hard to make the experiments necessary.

Anyway I think Mr. Chomsky can say it better (and spare my the "He's a liberal," bullshit, its irrelivant.)

ZrEDo9ChSdQ

-_fFkLcRrBE

m7SPm-HFYLo

Face it, your allegations are rediculous, saying that the US government is ethically capable of harming its own citizens for political purposes is uncontriversial, no one debates that, but the hypothisis is just insane in unfoudned.

[Tychus]

Tychus, seriously?

Aside from the use of "retarded" and "nigga," I find you seriously offensive to this forum at large.

Nothing new to me, every forum that I've been to considers me seriously offensive and I'm banned from 90% of them.

You'll learn soon enough (like Obs probably did by now) that I derive personal gratification from telling people what they don't wanna hear, and watch them forced to hear it.


Plus, your argument has yet to be backed up with facts,

I've provided facts, you conveniently ignore them because you lack a coherent argument beyond abstract trivialities. "US government wouldn't be so this and that, wouldn't have the nerve, wouldn't have the patience, wouldn't have the conscience etc."

Steel columns wouldn't melt under jet fuel though.


you just keep asking rhetorical questions no one else feels they should be assed enough to answer.

So then you concede you have no counter-argument?


You originally claim:

...then you backtrack to only "several" having survived, a few posts later. Which is it, and where is the proof of this?

Only several? How much is only several? You would sleep much cozier at night if you didn't give yourself such numbing mindfucks trying to argue semantics.

Moreover, do some research, several of those so-called hijackers have come out in the open demanding why the hell they are being listed as suicide bombers. http://guardian.150m.com/september-eleven/hijackers-alive.htm

We can only be certain about the ones that HAVE come out and protested the false use of their names.

Remember that Spanish communist the FBI used to post a digitally-aged picture of Osama Bin Laden on their ten most wanted page? Oh but the US government would never do such obviously careless, idiotic shit that the public would figure out, right? LOL.


So the US, in an effort to have a reason to invade the Middle East, is capable of creating a scheme for the 9/11 attacks in two days?

Re-read the post...


Now there's the American spirit your posts were thus far lacking! Why is it okay to approve of eradicating millions of average citizens based on their cultural ties?

No, but the war on Iran was justified.


The adjectives you've used to stereotype the people of an entire nation is grossly overgeneralising. That kind of discrimination doesn't seem very leftist IMO.

Last I checked, one primary jump-start to the reactionary so-called "revolution" in Iran was the public's distaste for all the growing women's rights that was obviously "dirty, western influence". The Shah wanted to ban the burqa, the cavemen revolted.

So on second thought, no I don't give a shit what happens to those beasts. They are a waste of fucking resources.






Sweet fuck-all, at least as far as the rest of the Vietnam War was concerned, which didn't end until eleven years later. Which is exactly my point. Even if you uncover "T3H K0NZP1R4CY!!!!111!!!!11!", the US government will not crumble or even tremble. It is powerful enough to just bully its way past any criticism and/or exposure to their shortcomings, at least from anyone not toting nuclear weapons.

If you're powerful like the US government you don't need to faff around with conspiracy bullshit. You can simply bribe, bully, propagandise and cajole people into doing what you want them to do.


This is the sort of plan that has a HUGE probability it went wrong, and if it did go wrong would spark a revolution.

LOL!!!!

[RGacky3]

Nothing new to me, every forum that I've been to considers me seriously offensive and I'm banned from 90% of them.

You'll learn soon enough (like Obs probably did by now) that I derive personal gratification from telling people what they don't wanna hear, and watch them forced to hear it.


I know your banned so its a bit pointless but this is rediculous, what you see as "telling people what they don't want to hear" and pretending to be some sort of "tough love self sacrifice," everyone else just sees as "some asshole saying nothing and just being a dick."

[KR]

Bin Laden was a fucking monster, not some master tactician.
You can be a "monster/evil man/bad guy" and still be a master tactician.

[KR]

Right, some religious psychotics with scraggly beards living in a cave were able to have NORAD stand down and mastermind the bombings of our trade centers? I love how the official explanation is never labeled a conspiracy theory, but the very pertinent and compelling questions about things just not scientifically adding up are "conspiracy theories". LMAO!

I urge you fools to take a keen look at history such as the sinking of the mauritania in WW1, the fabricated attack on pearl harbor in WW2 and the fabricated gulf of tonkin incident to start Vietnam and still tell me that the CIA didn't need an excuse to get us into this war, to keep us in fear and enable oppressive PATRIOT acts.

The official story you've been told is the bullshit conspiracy theory. All if not most of all those supposed 19 9/11 hijackers are still alive.

Also, I do not approve of neoliberalism or the system you all presently hate in America right now. Dismissing 9/11 truthers on the grounds that they might not all share your political views is a rather weak move IMO.
Idiot.

[capitalism is good]

There is a branch of Islam that seeks to wage war against the infidel till Islam rules the world. This religious imperialism has been around for centuries. Do a google search on the Barbary Wars. When Jefferson and Adams (two of America's founders) met with the Tripoli ambassador in London, they asked why their peaceful merchant ships were attacked by the Barbary states, their crews enslaved and the cargo stolen.

The Ambassador replied that it is because they were infidels and Islam commands that Muslims wage war against them. So what Bin Laden and the jihadists are doing is nothing new. Note that the Barbary Wars started at a time shortly after America won its Independence. There was no Israel then.