Is there really a Israel Lobby and other myths ?

[tradeunionsupporter]

Is there really a Israel Lobby and other myths ? It seems popular to blame the Jews for everything that goes wrong in the World either Jews or Gentile Puppets the Anti Semites say but I can't go along with it because while I dislike Zionism not all Jews support Zionism. Also there is a Israel Lobby I just don't think it has as much power as the Anti Semites say I don't deny that the U.S.A. support for Israel had a role in the cause of 9/11 but this was not the only cause Bin Laden blamed the Iraq Sanctions too as well as the U.S. support for the Puppet Dictatorhips in the Middleast. Would anyone agree that Zionism is the problem in the Middleast not all Jews and the problem is Capitalists in all religions races and nations. I will admit at one time in my life I was anti semitic I blamed the Jews for everything.

Osama bin Laden, Videotaped Address, October 7, 2001


§1 Here is America struck by God Almighty in one of its vital organs, so that its greatest buildings are destroyed. Grace and gratitude to God. America has been filled with horror from north to south and east to west, and thanks be to God. What America is tasting now is only a copy of what we have tasted.
§2 Our Islamic nation has been tasting the same for more than 80 years of humiliation and disgrace, its sons killed and their blood spilled, its sanctities desecrated.
§3 God has blessed a group of vanguard Muslims, the forefront of Islam, to destroy America. May God bless them and allot them a supreme place in heaven, for he is the only one capable and entitled to do so. When those have stood in defense of their weak children, their brothers and sisters in Palestine and other Muslim nations, the whole world went into an uproar, the infidels followed by the hypocrites.
§4 A million innocent children are dying at this time as we speak, killed in Iraq without any guilt. We hear no denunciation, we hear no edict from the hereditary rulers. In these days, Israeli tanks rampage across Palestine, in Ramallah, Rafah and Beit Jala and many other parts of the land of Islam [dar al-Islam], and we do not hear anyone raising his voice or reacting. But when the sword fell upon America after 80 years, hypocrisy raised its head up high bemoaning those killers who toyed with the blood, honor and sanctities of Muslims.
§5 The least that can be said about those hypocrites is that they are apostates who followed the wrong path. They backed the butcher against the victim, the oppressor against the innocent child. I seek refuge in God against them and ask him to let us see them in what they deserve.
§6 I say that the matter is very clear. Every Muslim, after this event, after the senior officials in the United States of America starting with the head of international infidels. Bush and his staff who went on a display of vanity with their men and horses, those who turned even the countries that believe in Islam against us—the group that resorted to God, the Almighty, the group that refuses to be subdued in its religion.
§7 They have been telling the world falsehoods that they are fighting terrorism. In a nation at the far end of the world, Japan, hundreds of thousands, young and old, were killed and this is not a world crime. To them it is not a clear issue. A million children in Iraq, to them this is not a clear issue.
§8 But when a few more than 10 were killed in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam, Afghanistan and Iraq were bombed and hypocrisy stood behind the head of international infidels: the modern world's symbol of paganism, America, and its allies.
§9 I tell them that these events have divided the world into two camps, the camp of the faithful and the camp of infidels. May God shield us and you from them.
§10 Every Muslim must rise to defend his religion. The wind of faith is blowing and the wind of change is blowing to remove evil from the Peninsula of Muhammad, peace be upon him.
§11 As to America, I say to it and its people a few words: I swear to God that America will not live in peace before peace reigns in Palestine, and before all the army of infidels depart the land of Muhammad, peace be upon him.
§12 God is the greatest and glory be to Islam.

Translated text of bin Laden broadcast taken from the New York Times, Monday, October 8, 2001, p. B7. Another version available at www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/10/07/ret.binladen.transcript/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/10/07/ret.binladen.transcript/index.html).

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/481921texts.html

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

There is an Israel lobby, but I'm pretty sure the main driving force is a marriage of convenience between imperialist foreign policy and Christian fundamentalist apocalypticism.

[Franz Fanonipants]

AIPAC and gtfo, troll

[tradeunionsupporter]

I think the United States and American Capitalist Lobbyists have more power then the Israel Lobby.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military%E2%80%93industrial_complex

[tradeunionsupporter]

True thanks.

[Belleraphone]

AIPAC only garners up public support for Israel, it does not really control our foriegn policy. There is no Saudi Lobby and Americans have a dim view of Saudi Arabia, but the USA still supports them.

Right now is it in the American bourgeois interests to support Israel. When the time comes that Israel will no longer serve its purposes, the USA will denounce and demonize them and cut off funding as Israel is swallowed alive by the people and countries they terrorized since its existence.

[Zostrianos]

The main lobby comes from US (and sadly a few Canadian) Evangelists who want to see their Biblical prophecies fulfilled and this means defending Israel at all costs until the end times...
Christian fundies and capitalists are the main backers of the Israel lobby. A lot of Jewish and Zionist organizations are as well, but surprisingly they're not as important as the Christian fundies.

[Belleraphone]

Bourgeois interests will come before Christian Zionism. Let's be honest, most of the people in the Bush and Obama cabinet are atheists and are only using Christian evangelicals as a voting base.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Zionism is 'old school' colonialism which and a tool for imperialism today.

[Black_Rose]

I am familiar with Kevin MacDonald's work about Jewish influence.

I'm curious about the revolutionary left's perspective on it, particularly the Jewish lobby's influence on foreign policy.

[RGacky3]

AIPAC and gtfo, troll


This guy's not a troll, he just aparently does'nt have google or wikipedia.

Yeah AIPAC is the isreali lobby, and its extremely powerful. Its not a "jewish" lobby, although what I think is even more a driving force of foriegn policy are the right evangelicals.

[Jimmie Higgins]

"jewish influence" and "jewish lobby" are definately terms we should not confuse with ideological pro-Israel Zionism. For one thing, it sounds anti-semetic and also helps the Zionists in conflating Zionism and Judaism - they are not the same thing but in the US part of trying to win support for Israel's apartheid policies is by arguing that Israel is the only way Jewish people can protect themselves from antisemitism.

There is a Zionist lobby, but it does not control or influence US foreign policy. The US began funding and supporting Israel after 1967 because they saw the country as a more willing and stable ally than some of the Arab nationalist counties which might play both sides of the cold war or other Middle Easter countries which might have revolutions. The US pro-Israel lobbies developed AFTER the US began focusing it's middle east policy more heavily on Israel.

A quick rebuttal to the Zionist lobby arguments in the progressive and Palestine solidarity circles is pointing out that Colombia doesn't have a lobby on the scale of the pro-Israel lobby and yet it is the 2nd largest recipient of aid and support. Both these countries recieve this support because they are bulldogs for the US - the US helps keep those regimes in power and these regimes act as a defense against revolts in regions vital to US imperialism.

I don't know the numbers, but I'm sure the environmental lobby is as big and influential as many other lobbies and yet the US doesn't support the environment with the gusto it supports Israel. I mean if you are pro-Israel and say that maybe there should be a secular state or question the one-sideness of the "peace-process" then you can be a noble prize winning ex-President and still be marginalized and ostracized... but if you say, well I don't know if climate-change is real or backed up by science, then you become the Republican Presidential candidate:lol:

Anyway, I think the argument is important because A) blaming US policy on a lobby implies that lobbying can be an effective method for changing US policy B) that US policy is neutral and it's only "bad influences" that make the US peruse bad policies C) it obscures US imperialism D) it opens the door to actual antisemites in the Palestine solidarity movement.

[Zostrianos]

There is no Saudi Lobby and Americans have a dim view of Saudi Arabia, but the USA still supports them.


"We're ok with Islamic fundamentalists, if they supply us with oil". :thumbdown:

The ultimate hypocrisy...

[RGacky3]

There is no Saudi Lobby and Americans have a dim view of Saudi Arabia, but the USA still supports them.


There is a Saudi Lobby, its called the Oil industry.

[Blake's Baby]

RGacky is right. There is a Saudi Lobby. There's also a Chinese Lobby, a French Lobby, a British Lobby, a Japanese Lobby... and in Britain and pretty much all other countries there's an American Lobby. That's how international relations work.

When Britain sold Hawk jets to be used against the revolting Indonesian people, and the East Timorese, it wasn't because the Indonesian government logged on to International Unbiased Go-Compare (Indonesian) and clicked on the tab marked 'best deals for small attack jets', it was because the British government schmoozed the Indonesians better than anyone else (or because Britain was more desperate, or because Indonesia had something the British government really wanted...).

If a big contract comes up for anything, France, America, China, Britain, Japan, Germany, whoever... all send in their trade missions, arms dealers, speculators, minor royals, secretaries of this, ministers of that, commissars of fudging and consuls of looking the other way. We'll stop funding the opposition if you sign up for our company to build the pipeline, we'll take your nuclear waste but you have to give us a discount on bananas, cut your drug supplies and you you can have these missiles cheap...

It's called 'competing national capitals'. Engels outlined it all 130 years ago.

[jake williams]

There is a Zionist lobby, but it does not control or influence US foreign policy.
They don't control it but they influence. They have money and a platform to push a particular argument within debates internal to the bourgeoisie. They do so fairly effectively. That few elements within the bourgeoisie disagree make it that much easier. But it's worth noting that bourgeois opposition to the US's Israel policy is probably greater than, say, bourgeois opposition to the US's Colombia policy, especially given the existence of, say, an Arab bourgeoisie factions of which strongly oppose US policy on Israel. Thus the role of lobbying becomes a little more decisive than it might otherwise be.

The national bourgeoisie within the United States is free to make its own decisions, but this is a complex process which involves internal debate. Pro-Israel elements within the bourgeoisie, Jewish or not, obviously and openly organize to advocate certain positions within this internal debate, just as different factions do within every other important debate. For strategic reasons having to do with the complex process of class rule, not because of transhistoric ethnic alliances or whatever else.

[Jimmie Higgins]

While it is misleading to speak of a "Jewish lobby" in Washington, I am amazed that anyone could say that AiPAC, the actually existing Israel lobby, "does not influence US foreign policy." AIPAC had enough influence in 2008 for candidate Obama to feel it necessary to make a public speech in favor of the Zionist state. And the fact that the US government gives Israel billions every year, surely testifies to AIPAC's influence in Washington. I can't figure out why the ISO equivocates on this question; AIPAC is real and powerful: US foreign policy in the Middle East certainly did not become as one-sided as it is, by accident. It is clear to everyone in the US Congress that any legislator who votes against Israel's interests will face a well-funded opponent in the next election. Cynthia McKinney can testify to that. So clear, in fact, that members of the US House of Representatives from the state I live in, will not even discuss the possibility of changing US Middle East policy.

First, be direct if you want to make a criticism of something I wrote - I misspoke when I said "it does not control or influence" - I meant influence as in orchestrate - that it is not the origin or primary motivation of these policies. Obviously if there was no effect of lobbing at all, there would be no lobbiests, I thought that goes without saying. As Belleraphone said, groups like AIPAC are influential, but not decisive, and are more aimed at convincing people here and bolstering ideological justifications for US and Israeli policies. Second, how does the ISO equivocate on this? AiPAC is not the REASON for US support of Israel - no lobby trumps the interests of US capitalism. Obama wouldn't be opposed to Israel, lobbies or not. The Koch brothers are influential too in pushing for "free-market" bullshit both in legislation and in organizing support for these policies through FreedomWorks and etc, but the US would still be perusing neo-liberal capitalism with or without all the think tanks and lobbyists and so on.

[Jimmie Higgins]

First of all, I am not required to take orders from anyone in the ISO.Drop! 50 push-ups, now! It wasn't an order, it was a request for upfrontness - it's common curtsey to debate people face to face rather than make backhanded comments and it's just plain good advice for posting and debating so you don't come off sounding like a creepy sectarian.

Secondly, you wrote that which is not true. AIPAC has no influence? Ask Cynthia McKinney! AIPAC is the reason some members of Congress refuse even to discuss the possibility of changing US policy. That represents tremendous influence.See above where I explain my view and correct where I said "influence". See all the posts I thanked in this thread too. Do you think the US wouldn't have the same support for Israel if there were no lobby groups working on this?

[Blake's Baby]

An influential section of the US bourgeoisie thinks that an alliance with Isreal is in the US's national interest. If a faction of the US bourgeoisie that thought an alliance with Iran was more useful came to dominate American thinking, the US would try to ally with Iran.

But an influential section of the Israeli bourgeoisie thinks that an alliance with America is good for Israel. Even if America allied with Iran, there would still be an 'Israel Lobby'. They'd just be relatively sidelined, as the (let's hypothesise) Guinea-Bissau Lobby is now.

The Israel Lobby is part of the dominant faction of American capital. I don't see that changing any time soon.

[Rottenfruit]

Aipac and the Adl are jewish lobby's yes but so what?

you got lobby's for everything in Usa so there's no evil conspiracy behind it

[Blake's Baby]

Of course there's an evil conspiracy behind it. The questions are rather, first, is it any more evil than any other conspiracy? To which the answer is no. Secondly, is it any more powerful, and the answer is, more powerful than most.

Does that matter? Only in detail. If the US had a 40-year alliance with let's say, Burundi, propping it up massively and militarily supporting it against its neighbours, then we'd be having the same conversation about the Burundian Lobby.

It only matters for Americans because it seems half the country believes it should hate the filthy Arabs and the other half believes it has to hate the stinking Jews. If it were Tutsis and Hutu, only the details would change I guess.

[Rafiq]

Israel is an American military base. I thought the left has already established that fact since the 1950's.

[tradeunionsupporter]

I just don't buy into the idea that the Israel/Zionist/Jewish Lobby controls and runs the American Government and the Media and the Banks.

ISR Issue 52, March–April 2007

Israel, the “lobby,” and the United States
The watchdog, not the master
By SHERRY WOLF

http://www.isreview.org/issues/52/israellobby.shtml

[RGacky3]

I just don't buy into the idea that the Israel/Zionist/Jewish Lobby controls and runs the American Government and the Media and the Banks.


They don't, have you read any of the responses here?

The Israel lobby is a lobby just like any other lobby, except its pretty powerful.