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Anti-Fascist
13th November 2003, 16:06
To him who subscribes to this myth, I say:

You are assuming too many things. You are assuming that
Stalin, a mere individual, had such power. You are assuming that
Stalin commited such a terrible crime. There is no motivation for
Stalin to commit such a crime. If it were a "genocide" against the
Ukrainian people, we would not expect the famine to spread
beyond the Mangolian border, as it did. If it were such a terrible
famine, we would expect people to have noticed it. On the
contrary, we have not a single photograph of the famine,
despite hundreds of foreign reporters being in the region at the
time - reporters who report that there was no famine!

To him who believes in this myth, I do inquire:

Why was the famine the worst in only those regions in which
the Kulaks resisted the most? You know, those regions in which
the Kulaks killed farm animals, destroyed grain deliveries,
destroyed collectives. killed government officials, etc. How do you
explain this?

How do you explain the follow quotation from the reactionary Mr.
Issac Mazepa, leader of the Ukrainian Nationalist Movement, in
1934?

"At first there were disturbances in the kolkhosi [collective farms]
or else the Communist officials and their agents were killed, but
later a system of passive resistance was favored which aimed at
the systematic frustation of the Bolsheviks' plans for the sowing
and gathering of the harvest. . . . The catastrophe of 1932 was
the hardest blow that Soviet Ukraine had to face since the famine
of 1921-1922. The autumn and spring sowing campaigns both
failed. Whole tracts were left unsown, in addition when the crop
was being gathered. . . . In many areas, especially in the south,
20, 40 and even 50 per cent was left in the fields, and was either
not collected at all or was ruined in the threshing."

How does this fit into your mode?

How do you explain the peasants' enthusiasm for collectivisation?
How do you explain the fact that the peasants were allowed to
leave the collectives whenever they wanted to, and in fact did
just that at some points? How does this fit?

How do you explain the fact that in 1935 the Kulaks leaving the
colonies in fact outnumbered the Kulaks who arrived by
approximately 300,000; When collectivisation was done, they
all returned to their homes.

How do you explain the fact that, according to the Soviet Archives,
appriximately 300,000 people died between 1930 and 1940 in
the special Kulak colinies; how do you explain that this figure,
although correct, includes all causes, including -- it is true --
old age, disease, injury, etc. In point of fact, all the Soviet
Archives really says is that the government refused to send food
to six Kulak villages for their sabataging of the grain deliveries.
And six Kulak villages does not translate into millions of people.

How do you explain the fact that the 1.8 million Kulaks who were
deported to other areas to facilitate collectivisation were
subsequently permitted to return to their former homes when
collectisation was done in each region, and did just that? (Those
1.8 million people were neither arrested nor detained; they were
only placed in other special collectives.)

It must be borne in mind that at that time there was massive
upheavel which surpassed even that of the revolution of 1917! So
yes, sometimes the local officials carried out excesses; but is it
that surprising? Are you surprised? I certainly am not. It is not at
all surprising that those same peasants who had been liberated
from three hundred years of brutal oppression and exploitation by
the Kulaks would take their revenge upon the Kulaks, and
sometimes punish even those Kulaks who might have been
innocent. Accordingly, in 1931, Stalin had initiated a thorough
investigation of those Kulaks that had been deported; it was then
determined that at most 70,000 families of those 330,000 were
deported wrongly; they were therefore freed by 1932. And yes, it
is true, thousands of deaths did occur owing to the very long
journey with inefficient means of transportation and the local
authorities' detestation of the Kulaks, which is very unfortunate
indeed. However, this issue was carefully addressed by Stalin
when he ordered the local officials to treat the Kulaks with far
more respect and to protect their rights and provide better
transportation for them. And we must not forget that this was at
about the same time, 1930, that the epidemics had broken out
(consequently the deportees were moved elsewhere).

It is interested to note that we do have one person who
claimed to have witnessed the famine. He was called "Thomas
Walker". Let us examine "Thomas Walker".

Here are some interesting experpts from Challenge-Desafio,
newspaper of the Progressive Labor Party, February 25, 1987:

"In 1935 * * * "Thomas Walker" published a five-part story on the
famine in * * * newspapers owned by the fanatical
anti-Communist and pro-fascist tycoon William Randolph Hearst.
Accompanying the series were photographs, supposedly of
starving Ukrainian peasants. * * * In March 1935, Louis Fischer, *
* * a reporter for The Nation, expressed some doubts about
"Walker's" photos: "Mr. Walker's photographs could easily date
back to the Volga famine in 1921. Many of them might have been
taken outside the Soviet Union. They were taken at different
seasons of the year . . . One picture includes trees or shrubs
with large leaves. Such leaves could not have grown by the "late
spring" of Mr. Walker's alleged visit. Other photographs show
winter and early fall backgrounds. Here is the Journal [Hearst's
New York City newspaper] of the twenty-seventh. A starving,
bloated boy of fifteen calmly poses naked for Mr. Walker. The next
minute, in the same village, Mr. Walker photographs a man who is
obviously suffering from the cold despite his thick sheepskin
overcoat. The weather that spring must have been as unreliable
as Mr. Walker to allow nude poses one moment and require furs
the next."

" * * * By July 1935 "Thomas Walker" was in a New York City jail,
under arrest as Robert Green, an escaped convict from Colorado,
where he was returned to serve out his sentence. Green admitted
his photos were frauds, not taken in the Ukraine nor by himself.
This was reported in all the New York City newspapers. The Daily
Worker . . . ran two detailed series about "Walker"/Green and
some other phony accounts of the famine from July-20, 1935."


Even so, how can we blame Stalin, a mere individual, for every
mistake? The Soviet people - undet the leadership of Stalin - were
attempting something which had NEVER been attmpted in history
- collectivisation. As Bob Avakian said:

"To bring about socialist collectivization together with socialist
industrialization and transform the Soviet Union from a relatively
backward to an advanced country economically -- all of which was
accomplished in the two decades between the end of the civil war
in Russia and WW2 -- was a great achievement of the Soviet
working class and people under the leadership of Stalin. And it
had much to do with the Soviet Union's ability to defeat the Nazi
invaders in WW2, another great achievement of the Soviet people
carried out under Stalin's leadership.
"All the same time, in giving leadership to an unprecedented task
of such tremendous proportions--the socialization, transformation
and rapid development of the economy of such a large and
complex country as the Soviet Union under the conditions where it
was the only socialist state in the world still dominated by
imperialism -- Stalin did make certain errors. To a significant
degree this is explainable by the very fact that there was no
historical precedent for this task, no previous experience (and
previous errors) to learn from. On the other hand, as Mao summed
up, certain of Stalin's errors, including in the sphere of political
economy, economic policy and socialist construction, arose
because and to the extent that Stalin failed to thoroughly apply
materialist dialectics to solving problems, including many genuinely
new problems that did arise." (Mao Tsetung's Immortal
Contributions, pp. 89-90)

ernestolynch
14th November 2003, 23:11
Great post comrade, as ever ignored by the Trotsky-Fascist hyenas.

Totalitarian
14th November 2003, 23:44
Believing the figures from the Soviet archives.....we might as well take the nazi records on face value, which said that only a few hundred thousand people died in their concentration camps during the war, mostly of typhus!

"we have not a single photograph of the famine"

You dumb fuck. I have a book in front of me with lots of photos of the famine. The book is called The Russian Century, by Brian Moynahan 1994.

Photo #1:

"A party requisitioning squad removes hidden grain (opposite). Any peasant whose grain cache was found was automatically treated as a kulak, and deported or shot; yet to retain some grain was a matter of survival. 'The peasants lay helpless in their huts with swollen limbs', an activist wrote. 'And yet we had to get bread out of the villages somehow, and fulfill the plan'.

Photo #2:

"A watchtower (left). These were built in the fields so that Party activists, some of them Young Pioneers, could spot starving peasants who snipped ears of corn to feed their families. The countryside thus resembled an enormous concentration camp, whose inmates spied upon each other"

Photo #3:

"In the killing fields of the Ukraine (above). The men died first, then the children and lastly the women. 'The most terrifying sights were the little children', wrote a Party activist. 'Starvation had wiped every trace of youth from their faces, turning them into tortured gargoyles: only in their eyes still lingered the remainder of their childhood. Everywhere we found men and women lying prone, their faces and bellies bloated, their eyes utterly expressionless'.

Photo #4:

"Cannibals caught with cuts of human flesh (opposite). They were accused of having killed their victims. The progress of Soviet Russia was marked by cannibalism: in the civil war, during the mass starvation in the Volga in 1921 as shown here, at the height of collectivisation in the Ukraine, in Leningrad under the Nazi siege. The starvation that caused it was then bought off with imports of Western grain; but collectivisation has meant that the largest country on earth remains incapable of feeding itself on a consistent basis"


Of course you genocidal, arrogant prick...you will dismiss this simply as "capitalist Nazis lies, all lies!"

Anti-Fascist
15th November 2003, 06:03
Those were probably from the Volga famine. Western propagandists
(and Ukrainian nationalists) have even admitted using photographs
from the Volga famine, passing them off as ones from the Ukrainian
famine.

And do not compare Soviet Socialism with Nazism. There is no basis
of comparison.

And the Nazi records, on the contary, are sources which historians
constantly use as evidence for the truth that millions died in
concentration camps. The Germans kept very good records of these
atrocities. If we were to apply the same method which we use to
expose the crimes of Nazism - if we were to apply this to the
Soviet archives, we would find that there was no artificial famine.

And there was no motivation for the Party to lie with regard to the
Soviet archives.

And even if we were to ignore the Soviet archives, as you so
naively do, we would still have no evidence of an artificial
famine, a genocide of you will. Starvation, yes, but no
genocide. I have given a sample of the many reasons for
this in my original post.

Totalitarian
16th November 2003, 01:23
"do not compare Soviet Socialism with Nazism. There is no basis
of comparison"

Well, they were both nationalist, imperialist movements. And nationalism KILLS!

"the Nazi records, on the contary, are sources which historians
constantly use as evidence for the truth that millions died in
concentration camps"

I'm talking about the records made at the camps of individual prisoner names, not the confesssions obtained by torture at nuremberg tribunal.

"there was no motivation for the Party to lie with regard to the
Soviet archives"

Sure. They had no motiviation to cover up their crimes. :angry:

"we would still have no evidence of an artificial
famine, a genocide of you will"

They crushed the nationalist uprising, and stole the peasant's produce. People starved because of it.

You can try and justify mass-murderers actions if you want. As long as you don't try and repeat history, you're still harmless.

Anyway, i'm done debating this morbid topic. Wallow in your blood-lust, and see if i care.

Bolshevika
16th November 2003, 02:04
Well, they were both nationalist, imperialist movements. And nationalism KILLS!

This is untrue. The Soviet Union spread Communist revolution throughout the world. In every continent except North America and Australia there has been communist revolution/attempts at communist revolution supported by the Soviet Union.

Also, the Soviet Union supported democracy and opposed class system and private property while the Nazi fucks supported social hiererachy, dictatorship and capitalism.

The Soviet people might have been patriotic, but they were not nationalist. They were internationalist, even though they loved and protected their motherland. They were also fiercely against racism, sexism, etc so it is ridiculous to compare them to the Nazis who were in fact the opposite.


They crushed the nationalist uprising, and stole the peasant's produce. People starved because of it.

This is ignorance. The "nationalist uprising" was a Nazi sympathizing bourgeois fascist uprising led by the kulaks. Most of the Ukrainian peasants were collectivized even before Stalin's 5 year plans. The reason the people starved was because the Kulaks either destroyed their crops on purpose or put up a fight before collectivizing. Hence, they are to blame.


You can try and justify mass-murderers actions if you want. As long as you don't try and repeat history, you're still harmless.

How is famine in a country caused by one person?

It's wrong to call the famine 'mass murder' due to the fact that Stalin didn't round up and systematically and randomly execute all the Ukrainian men women and children (like Hitler with the Jews and slavs) he could. The famine did happen, but it was not the USSR's fault and the figures some of the Nazi/bourgeois propagandists give out (STALIN STARVED 500 MILLION PEOPLE) is highly exaggerrated.

Ian
16th November 2003, 02:34
Bolshevika, I thought that the FLQ guerrillas in Quebec were supported by the USSR sort of.

Bolshevika
16th November 2003, 05:31
Originally posted by Ian [email protected] 16 2003, 03:34 AM
Bolshevika, I thought that the FLQ guerrillas in Quebec were supported by the USSR sort of.
Possibly the USSR supported them verbally, but I doubt they gave them any subsidies or weapons.

Ian
16th November 2003, 05:45
Yeah that would make sense.

Totalitarian
16th November 2003, 22:35
Bolshevika:

The Soviet people might have been patriotic, but they were not nationalist. They were internationalist, even though they loved and protected their motherland.

To love your "motherland", makes you a nationalist IMO. The fact that they wanted to spread their ideology and political control around the world, made the Soviets imperialist.

For example, President Bush has made it clear that he wants to spread aspects of his ideology (which he calls "democracy") around the world. Thus one could argue that he is internationalist in that sense.

Also, the Soviet Union supported democracy and opposed class system and private property while the Nazi fucks supported social hiererachy, dictatorship and capitalism.

If the Soviet regime supported democracy, then why is it the people were only allowed to vote for the Soviet party? You could argue that a One-party state is democratic, but that would be radically twisting the definition of the word as far as i can see.

You say that they opposed class system, hierarchy and private property. Yet there was still plenty of inequality in the Soviet union. A huge number of people lived in poverty while the Party elite lived in relative prosperity. The more political connections you had, the greater the amount of wealth you were able to accumulate.

I do not consider a government to be any different, in principle, from a capitalist enterprise. The only difference is that they happen to be the most powerful. In the case of the Soviet union, the land and businesses were said to be owned by the people. In practise the only people who owned them were the Soviet elite. Thus the property was private in so far as it was controlled by the new social elites, in the name of "the people".

The "nationalist uprising" was a Nazi sympathizing bourgeois fascist uprising led by the kulaks. Most of the Ukrainian peasants were collectivized even before Stalin's 5 year plans. The reason the people starved was because the Kulaks either destroyed their crops on purpose or put up a fight before collectivizing. Hence, they are to blame.

Let me ask you a question: Why should the kulaks have been "collectivized" by the Party leaders, if they didn't want to be?

Anti-Fascist
16th November 2003, 22:55
(Pseudo)Totalitarian:

People who say that the Soviet Union under the leader-
ship of Stalin was not democratic do not understand the
Soviet System, which had adopted a very unique type of
organisation.

The Soviet administration was one of the dictatorship of
the proletariat in which personal decisions were
impossible. With this said, what is considered as
non-democratic in the Soviet Union is the fact that all
political activity whose aim it was to take power from the
proletariat was outlawed. It is true that such activity
was outlawed. And this is said to be contrary to
democracy. But this was a dictatorship of the
proletariat, and was the will of the generality. To out-
law all political activity which can potentially take away
the power of the majority - which can destroy
democracy - is 100% in accordance with
democracy.

"Stalin . . . has not even the extensive power . . . which
the American Constitution entrusts for four years to
every successive president. . . ."
-The conclusion of British Fabian economists Sidney and
Beatrice Webb, in 'Soviet Communism: A New
Civilisation'

I shall get to the rest of your post later.

Totalitarian
16th November 2003, 23:28
The Soviet administration was one of the dictatorship of
the proletariat

Actually it was a dictatorship of the Party, in the name of the proletariat.

Bolshevika
16th November 2003, 23:34
To love your "motherland", makes you a nationalist IMO. The fact that they wanted to spread their ideology and political control around the world, made the Soviets imperialist.

For example, President Bush has made it clear that he wants to spread aspects of his ideology (which he calls "democracy") around the world. Thus one could argue that he is internationalist in that sense.

Socialism is not an idea of the Soviet Union. Also, different nations the Soviet Union supported had minor differences from Soviet socialism.

Anther thing, what USSR did was internationalism, not imperialism. The USSR did NOT invade other nations and install their own puppet government. The USSR supported popular uprisings (all uprisings are usually supported by the people).

How many Iraqis went to Baghdad with American flags saying "we want capitalism"? How many Iraqis tried to overthrow the Saddam government with the intent of installing capitalism? None. Bush FORCED his ideas on the Iraqi people, they did not revolt and install it.



If the Soviet regime supported democracy, then why is it the people were only allowed to vote for the Soviet party? You could argue that a One-party state is democratic, but that would be radically twisting the definition of the word as far as i can see.

What is your definition of a "two party state"? The United States?! Well, 99.9 of congress is controlled by one party, the capitalist party. So I don't really see how the American "democracy" is superior. The reason Soviet democracy is superior to American democracy is due to the fact that it is far more efficient and concentrates much more power into the hands of the working people (factories, collectives, etc were run democratically by the people who worked these areas). American democracy concentrates power into the capitalist oligarchs and labour aristocracy, not the masses.


You say that they opposed class system, hierarchy and private property. Yet there was still plenty of inequality in the Soviet union. A huge number of people lived in poverty while the Party elite lived in relative prosperity. The more political connections you had, the greater the amount of wealth you were able to accumulate.

This might have been true during the late 60's, 1970's and 80's when the USSR became a revisionist imperialistic state. But during the times of Lenin, Stalin and the first few years of Khrushchev this did not happen often.

And if it did, how do you expect any government system to be absolutely perfect? That is utopianism, Marx, Lenin, nor Stalin were utopians and they did not promise utopia.


I do not consider a government to be any different, in principle, from a capitalist enterprise. The only difference is that they happen to be the most powerful. In the case of the Soviet union, the land and businesses were said to be owned by the people. In practise the only people who owned them were the Soviet elite. Thus the property was private in so far as it was controlled by the new social elites, in the name of "the people".

What are you going on about?

If you do not see the difference between a capitalist corporate conglomerate (American government) and the Soviet republics, than you are a silly ass.

As I've said there was no private property. You say they were private property because the government owned it, but what do we call property that is owned by the government? Public property

I don't see how the Soviet government was ran by the "soviet elite" since the people who worked this property did it in a democratic fashion, in comparison to capitalism where a sole dictator (the CEO/boss/etc) runs property and the workers who work under this dictator have no power at all.


Let me ask you a question: Why should the kulaks have been "collectivized" by the Party leaders, if they didn't want to be?

Actually, it was the peasants in the Ukraine who forced most of the Kulaks to collectivize due to the fact that the poor peasants rose up against them. It wasn't really the Soviet government, although the Soviet government supported this example of class struggle.

Anti-Fascist
17th November 2003, 02:35
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2003, 12:28 AM
The Soviet administration was one of the dictatorship of
the proletariat

Actually it was a dictatorship of the Party, in the name of the proletariat.
Another one of your all too common baseless assertions.

Kapitan Andrey
17th November 2003, 09:14
I can't get it...what are you talking about!?
About sTalin or about fuckin'-ukrainian nationalists!?