Vietnam

[Yazman]

Words cannot describe the pure rage that gathers within me upon reading about this. I mean, I'd heard about it, and I'd just thought, "woah, it must have been bad", but I've just read accounts from the trials about what was going on over there, and it was pure fucking murder. I'd thought the US army had done some pretty bad things before, but now I truly understand.

Words cannot describe how enraged I am. My anger is to the extent that I wish death upon the entire US military. They deserve it. Capitalism MUST end. We cannot allow this to go on forever and ever.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

What is important to remember about My Lai is that the massacre was not that exceptional. The difference is that it became a token case of war crimes committed by the U.S. in Vietnam. I once heard that "every [military unit] has its own My Lai."

[Sabocat]

Agreed MiN. A little stroll through history shows that there were similar if not worse cases during the Korean "War"

Here's a link for a description of the massacre at No Gun Ri. It was a bridge where a small village's civilians were hiding and subsequently machine gunned by U$ soldiers.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/nov1999/...9/kor-n17.shtml (http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/nov1999/kor-n17.shtml)


This is yet just another demonstration of the dehumanizing of a population by the U$ Imperial Army. There are many more instances, I'm sure.

[Jesus Christ]

the horrible thing is that Colonel William Calley, who led the massacre was given a dishonorable discharge, but still given numerous medals and portrayed as a hero
he was even let off free to go
its terrible

[Regicidal Insomniac]

Originally posted by Marxist in [email protected] 13 2003, 05:58 PM
What is important to remember about My Lai is that the massacre was not that exceptional. The difference is that it became a token case of war crimes committed by the U.S. in Vietnam. I once heard that "every [military unit] has its own My Lai."
That quote, "Every American company has it's own My Lai" was said by Calley himself durring his show trail.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Thanks RI...

I remember reading that the military, when investigating My Lai, did not react much... that kind of bloodbath was an everyday happening...

[suffianr]

Words cannot describe how enraged I am. My anger is to the extent that I wish death upon the entire US military. They deserve it. Capitalism MUST end. We cannot allow this to go on forever and ever.

War atrocities are not the direct result of capitalism.

War atrocities are the result of war, and have happened in almost every single theatre of war in recorded history.

Wake up, comrade. Anger is one thing. Mis-directed anger is another. Your enemy is not the US Military. It is capitalism. They are not the same thing. Unless, of course, you happen to be an Iraqi who's village just got bombed to hell yesterday.

[Yazman]

"Unless, of course, you happen to be an Iraqi who's village just got bombed to hell yesterday."

It's not mis-directed. I do not have to be an Iraqi myself in order to feel angry at what has been done to them. They are fellow people who need help.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 10:38 AM
War atrocities are not the direct result of capitalism.
True... but one must take into account capitalism's proliferation of war.

Capitalism is devoted single-mindedly to profit. Morality does not factor in.

War is profitable. Always has been. Wars have been fought for economic reasons for countless centuries.

The military-industrial complex is dominant in the U.S. because the capitalists need the military at their back, to defend their stolen property from millions of workers fueled with rightful anger. Secondly, weapons production and distribution are incredibly profitable. Third, after a massive war like the one waged in Iraq this year, there are billions to be made in lucrative rebuilding contracts.

[suffianr]

Good points there, Jackson.

But to "wish death" upon entire armies isn't the most productive of thoughts that comes to mind...I was basically asking Yazman if he could cool down for a moment and think properly.

I agree, capitalism does proliferate war, but since war itself provides ample conditions for atrocities, Yazman would have to "wish death" upon every single modern army that has ever been involved in any conflict in any theatre of war.

I just thought the idea of "wishing death" without doing anything compelling towards the resolution of that "wish" sounded a little ridiculous, that's all.

Peace, Yaz. :)

[Marxist in Nebraska]

First of all, to prevent any confusion:

Marxist in Nebraska = MiN = Jackson (real name--use it wisely)

suffi,

Good point... atrocities are committed on all sides in times of war. It is surely an argument to quit fighting wars.

[Bolshevika]

Capitalism is to blame for imperialist war because imperialism is a capitalist trait. Imperialist wars are driven by the want for profit.

[the SovieT]

though i would love to say thjat all and every war is stupid and has no sense, i would be lying..

first of all, even though its not positive nor progressist, war is necessary.

Everytime there is any social change, or revolutionary process of any kind, either by direct popular demandind, democratic process etc etc the reactionary forces fight back..
history has proven us this..
as examples we have the spanish civil war, the chilean 11 of september coup d etat..
on both cases the reactionary forces fought back, and in a desesperated atempt tried to take back theyr possessions and power..
unfortunally on the Chilean case the goverment hadnt the necessary armed forces to fight back the treacherous rebels and so a dictatorship was instaured...
that is why war, even if its not positive, nor does it allow any society to grow (expect the bourgeoise, those profit from war), it is unfortunally something we HAVE to face...

[Marxist in Nebraska]

SovieT,

Good points...

That is why I am not a pacifist. I seek to make any potentially violent situation non-violent if it is possible. If it is not, I am willing to fight for that which is rightfully mine. The working class clearly has the right to defend its revolution, by violence if necessary (and history suggests this is almost always the case).

No war but the class war!!!

[The Children of the Revolution]

Although capitalist nations have been behind many wars, capitalism was not the driving force behind war. World War II, for example, was initiated on ideological and expansionist grounds. Yes, money was made. People profited from the sale of weapons. (Not least the Bush family who, I think, were the main "purveyors of arms and munitions" to the Nazis... Correct me if i'm wrong comrades...) War has (unfortunately) been a part of human history for eons.

The Dark Age Crusades and Medieval European Wars were no less horrific than modern day equivalents - they differed only in terms of scale. Massacres akin to Mai Lai have occured throughout History; The Americans are not the only ones at fault.



War is profitable. Always has been.


Haven't you played "Total Annihilation"??? Or, for that matter, witnessed the recent Jihad against America? What does fundamentalist Islam stand to gain from taking on the mighty America? [Or, as I should have said, the Western world in general.] Very little can be gained (money or materials) by sending wave upon wave of suicide bombers into Jewish settlements... Or planes into the World Trade Center, shocking as it was. It will never win a War. But yet it persists - because Islamic fundamentalism is diametrically opposed to capitalism and does not see War in terms of profit.

The same ideas can be applied to feuding Scottish (or any other nationality - I use the Scots only because I happen to know a little about their History) tribes. There was no profit in continuing a conflict. Honour however, and tradition - important aspects of Clan based culture - stood to be won or lost. Therefore the tribes would continue to battle, even if it were mutually destructive; many tribes weakened themselves fighting each other only for a third tribe to vanquish them both.

Capitalism and profitability have only recently affected the nature of Warfare.



first of all, even though its not positive nor progressist, war is necessary.


I disagree, comrade. Many technical innovations - as well as the social change you mentioned - have come about directly as a result of armed conflict. War is the greatest progressive force in History. Not to say that it is good; I believe the opposite. However, the struggle between two (or indeed more) societies is a huge motivation for development. A technical or medical invention would lend a huge advantage to the "side" which introduced it. The other "side" would have to match the improvement or perish. Thus, War necessitated constant change and progress. Unfortunate, but true.

[Sabocat]

(Not least the Bush family who, I think, were the main "purveyors of arms and munitions" to the Nazis... Correct me if i'm wrong comrades...)

Not technically arms and munitions but equally as reprehensible.



The Bush Family-Nazi Connection: Began well before World War Two, when George W Bush's paternal grandfathers, Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker, sold millions of dollars in bonds for the German Thysson industrial empire to the US public. Thysson, in turn, helped financed the rise of the Nazi Party along with other US industrial interests - including the Ford Motor Co. and other US corps which played key roles in financing Hitler's rise to power.

The rest... http://home.earthlink.net/~brucensara/US-Nazi.html

[Goldfinger]

SHUT THE FUCK UP RAGING BULL

[ComradeRobertRiley]

The WTC came crashing down, that was sweet revenge, loved every minute of it