Are there Neo-Nazis who are Jewish?

[Kornilios Sunshine]

This question might sound stupid, but I question it a lot.Except of Zionism is there any other behaviour that a Jew can adopt, closely related to Nazism?Are there really any Nazi Jews?

[socialistjustin]

I have never heard of one. I have met a few Nazis and nobody was Jewish. If there are then it reminds me of the kkk sketch Chappelle did with the black blind guy who was a leader of the local clan group.

[Nox]

Are there really any Nazi Jews?

Yes, they are called Zionists.

[Inner Peace]

Of Course and black people are in Ku Klux Klan as well.
http://gitez.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/737.jpg

See i told you

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Yes, they are called Zionists.
Read the whole thread,please.I said except Zionists!:)

[tir1944]

Yes.
Some years ago they caught a gang of neonazis who terrorised people in Israel,mostly Russian Jews or people who were recognized as such under "the law of return".
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israels-nightmare-homegrown-neonazis-in-the-holy-land-396392.html

[hatzel]

Depends how you define 'Jew.' But if you want: yeah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrol_35).

EDIT: oh, Tir's on it!

[Bronco]

There's a great film called "The Believer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Believer_(film))" about an American Neo-Nazi and Ku Klux Klan member who was exposed as being Jewish and killed himself as a result. It's based on the true story of Dan Burrows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Burros), although his Judaism and his Nazism aren't intrinsically linked or anything

[Nox]

This question might sound stupid, but I question it a lot.Except of Zionism is there any other behaviour that a Jew can adopt, closely related to Nazism?Are there really any Nazi Jews?

Oh, you said except Zionism, my bad.

I think some ultra-orthodox branches of Judaism advocate total homogenity of the Jewish population, e.g. Ashkenazis not even mixing with Sephardi Jews.

[The Insurrection]

There was a case in 2007 of the Israeli police breaking up a gang of Neo-Nazi's. They or their parents had emigrated from the former Soviet Union and were Israeli citizens. Whether they considered themselves Jew's, I don't know, but as I understand it you cannot become an Israeli citizen unless you're classed as a Jew by the Israeli state. Also, it's highly likely that the National Socialist state in Germany would have considered them Jews or at least the category of Mischling that were not spared discrimination and deportation to the camps.

So when all is said and done, yes, there are/have been Jewish Neo-Nazi's.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6985808.stm

[The Insurrection]

Yes.
Some years ago they caught a gang of neonazis who terrorised people in Israel,mostly Russian Jews or people who were recognized as such under "the law of return".
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israels-nightmare-homegrown-neonazis-in-the-holy-land-396392.html

Oh snap! Ha :)

[Metacomet]

So now Zionism=Nazism?

Any behavior a Jew can adopt? I imagine they can adopt any kind of behavoir that anyone else can.:rolleyes:


I swear there are a lot of closet Anti-Semites here.

[aty]

So now Zionism=Nazism?

Zionism believes in a jewish state for jewish people. Nazis believe in an aryan state for aryan people.

[S.Artesian]

Oh, you said except Zionism, my bad.

I think some ultra-orthodox branches of Judaism advocate total homogenity of the Jewish population, e.g. Ashkenazis not even mixing with Sephardi Jews.

Yes, that's true. There's also ethnic discrimination among Jews-- German Jews historically looked down on Polish Jews; Hungarian Jews looked down on Galician Jews ["Galizianers" as they called them]; and Israel, under the Ashkenazi origin Jews certainly has discriminated against Sefardic Jews, particularly those of darker skin from Africa.

But that's not Nazi-ism. N Nazi-ism also includes a particular corporatist capitalist program, smashing the labor unions and "integrating" workers through official unions; and the violent extermination of other ethnicities.

Zionism is a settler ideology, more akin IMO, to that of the Boers-- the "Afrikaners" in South Africa... which certainly has points in common with fascism and Nazi-ism, but isn't quite that........yet.

[Metacomet]

Can a woman be a misogynist. Is "the woman" capable of adopting other behavior?

If I made a thread about that I'd probably get an infraction.

[hatzel]

Can a woman be a misogynist. Is "the woman" capable of adopting other behavior?

If I made a thread about that I'd probably get an infraction.

To be honest I think it's a problem with the OP's English. I think he meant something like "apart from Zionism - which some might say is akin to fascism, but I'm not interested in that discussion - are there any other Jewish (quasi-)Nazi movements?" rather than "can a leopard ever change its spots?"

To answer that beyond merely talking about Patrol 35 (because we appear to have covered that), we might want to look towards the somewhat related ideologies of Canaanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanism) and Revisionist Maximalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revisionist_Maximalism), both of which were explicitly fascist, yet as these were pre-war movements, perhaps they aren't of that much interest nowadays (and may not have sounded quite as paradoxical as 'Jewish fascist' would after the war). I also assume there were Jewish supporters of European fascist movements in the 20's (Sarfatti would perhaps be the best known Jew involved in fascism), and perhaps in some of the Latin American derivatives, but again we're not at all contemporary. In the modern day I suppose you'd have to look to the followers (if we can call them that) of Meir Kahane, some of whom definitely exhibit fascist tendencies. I think that would be the most obvious example.

[ColonelCossack]

Zionism believes in a jewish state for jewish people. Nazis believe in an aryan state for aryan people.

I agree; I don't really differentiate between lebensraum and zionism- they both have similar aims, just concerning different races, as you said. If that's anti-semetic, I would appreciate it if someone could explain how.

[Kamos]

I swear there are a lot of closet Anti-Semites here.

I swear there are A LOT of closet Zionists here.

[OHumanista]

I never met a jew who was literally a neo-nazi for obvious reasons (again zionists being the closest thing)
Now I've seen a black guy LEADING a neo-nazi group...but I bet that is one of those crazy things that only happen in Brasil:D

[tir1944]

There's nothing wrong with a Jewish state,however it shouldn't be in Palestine.

[Cencus]

There's nothing wrong with a Jewish state.

Theres lots wrong with a Jewish state, same as there's plenty wrong with Christian state, a Muslim State, a Hindu state, a white state, a black state, or any other state that indentifies itself with one ethnic or religious group.

[Nox]

I swear there are a lot of closet Anti-Semites here.

Way to go, pulling out the anti-semite card. :rolleyes:

If you look at the fundamentals of Nazism and Zionism, you see some striking similarities, in fact most of it is exactly the same.

The Nazis had basically the exact same aims as Zionists do and they both participated/participate in ethnic cleansing and gained/are currently gaining 'lebensraum'.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/6025/user26994pic71781295735.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/user26994pic71781295735.jpg/)

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6350/2091127201bfdce62dd.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/11/2091127201bfdce62dd.jpg/)

[Nox]

There's nothing wrong with a Jewish state,however it shouldn't be in Palestine.

There was also nothing wrong with Nazi Germany.

^^^ That's basically what you just said.

[Nox]

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3173/user26994pic71831295735.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/user26994pic71831295735.jpg/)

[Bronco]

There was also nothing wrong with Nazi Germany.

^^^ That's basically what you just said.

That's a very crude straw man, and as much as I'm against it, supporting the principle of a Jewish state by no means equates to supporting the Nazi's

[Nox]

That's a very crude straw man, and as much as I'm against it, supporting the principle of a Jewish state by no means equates to supporting the Nazi's

>Jewish state for Jews
>German state for Germans
>Both participate(d) in ethnic cleansing

Where's the difference?

Supporting a Jewish state is just as bad as supporting the Nazis.

[#FF0000]

Way to go, pulling out the anti-semite card. :rolleyes:

If you look at the fundamentals of Nazism and Zionism, you see some striking similarities, in fact most of it is exactly the same.

The Nazis had basically the exact same aims as Zionists do and they both participated/participate in ethnic cleansing and gained/are currently gaining 'lebensraum'.

No.

And no one isn't saying Israel doesn't suck. We're saying it's stupid to compare them to the Nazis (just like it is stupid and childish to compare anyone to the Nazis unless they are literally Nazis).

[S.Artesian]

Way to go, pulling out the anti-semite card. :rolleyes:

If you look at the fundamentals of Nazism and Zionism, you see some striking similarities, in fact most of it is exactly the same.

The Nazis had basically the exact same aims as Zionists do and they both participated/participate in ethnic cleansing and gained/are currently gaining 'lebensraum'.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/6025/user26994pic71781295735.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/user26994pic71781295735.jpg/)

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6350/2091127201bfdce62dd.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/11/2091127201bfdce62dd.jpg/)


Or... as I said to my sister [a strong pro-Zionist]: If Hitler were in power, the Israelis would be selling him ovens.

Funny, she never responded to that.

[tir1944]

There was also nothing wrong with Nazi Germany.Aren't you ashamed of yourself for writing such rubbish?


>Jewish state for Jews
>German state for Germans
>Both participate(d) in ethnic cleansing This is nonsense.
There's nothing wrong with a German state either.GDR was also,as the name implies,a German state.
A Jewish state in what today is the JAO in Russia i have no problems with.
Also,FYI,almost EVERY state "participated in "ethnic cleansing".

[Nox]

No.

And no one isn't saying Israel doesn't suck. We're saying it's stupid to compare them to the Nazis (just like it is stupid and childish to compare anyone to the Nazis unless they are literally Nazis).

Why is it silly to compare them to the Nazis? There is so much in common that it would be silly to not compare them to the Nazis.


Or... as I said to my sister [a strong pro-Zionist]: If Hitler were in power, the Israelis would be selling him ovens.

Funny, she never responded to that.

Very good ^.^

[tir1944]

If Hitler were in power, the Israelis would be selling him ovens.
This is,IMO,borderline antisemitism.

[CAleftist]

There's nothing wrong with a Jewish state,however it shouldn't be in Palestine.

There's plenty wrong with any "state", let alone a Jewish one.

We are revolutionary Leftists, not statists.

[Nox]

Aren't you ashamed of yourself for writing such rubbish?

This is nonsense.
There's nothing wrong with a German state either.GDR was also,as the name implies,a German state.
A Jewish state in what today is the JAO in Russia i have no problems with.
Also,FYI,almost EVERY state "participated in "ethnic cleansing".

Are you serious?

You just denounced Nazi Germany but then said there was nothing wrong with a German state for Germans... I'm struggling to take you seriously here bro...

[Nox]

This is,IMO,borderline antisemitism.

It's a joke based on the similarities between Nazism and Zionism.

It's the same shit but with different people involved.

[#FF0000]

Why is it silly to compare them to the Nazis? There is so much in common that it would be silly to not compare them to the Nazis.

like

inb4 comparing the treatment of palestinians to the treatment of jews in germany

it's horrendous to be sure, and i'm not saying one "isn't as bad" but they are not the same.

[Nox]

like

inb4 comparing the treatment of palestinians to the treatment of jews in germany

it's horrendous to be sure, and i'm not saying one "isn't as bad" but they are not the same.

I know what you're trying to say, and it's true that the Palestinians haven't been murdered to the same level as the Jews were... yet.

But that doesn't change the fact that the concept is exactly the same and that's the point I'm trying to make: The fundamentals of Zionism and Nazism are exactly the same.

[Smyg]

There's nothing wrong with a German state either


And you call yourself a communist why, now again?

[ColonelCossack]

There's nothing wrong with a Jewish state,however it shouldn't be in Palestine.

If they can somehow lower the sea level and create more land, fine. Just don't push in where someone already is.

On a theoretical level, there are really no differences between Zionism and Lebensraum. Of course, they have both been practised in different ways, and the actions of nazi germany were far worse than the actions of israel today- but that isn't to say that Israel hasn't donee some Really Bad stuff.

[#FF0000]

But that doesn't change the fact that the concept is exactly the same and that's the point I'm trying to make: The fundamentals of Zionism and Nazism are exactly the same.

What are these fundamentals that are exactly the same?

[Bronco]

>Jewish state for Jews
>German state for Germans
>Both participate(d) in ethnic cleansing

Where's the difference?

Supporting a Jewish state is just as bad as supporting the Nazis.

It's a bit of a simplistic look on it though, I don't think we should reduce it down to "they both want a state for themselves", and you're also assuming that supporting a Jewish state in principle logically leads to supporting genocide, which isn't really the case.

[Nox]

What are these fundamentals that are exactly the same?

>Ethnonationalism
>Ethnic supremacism
>Racism
>Ethnic cleansing

[individualist communist]

Yes, they are called Zionists.
Comparing zionism to nazism is completely insane and frankly, anti semetic. They cannot at all be compared to each other. Neither can Israel and apartheid South Africa. All these stupid comparisons do is just weakening the palestinian cause.

[Nox]

It's a bit of a simplistic look on it though, I don't think we should reduce it down to "they both want a state for themselves", and you're also assuming that supporting a Jewish state in principle logically leads to supporting genocide, which isn't really the case.

I'm just saying that the fundamentals of Zionism and Nazism are exactly the same.

They are different in practice though (different countries, different ethnicities involved) but the overall concept is the same and what's happening is similar.

[Nox]

Comparing zionism to nazism is completely insane and frankly, anti semetic. They cannot at all be compared to each other. Neither can Israel and apartheid South Africa. All these stupid comparisons do is just weakening the palestinian cause.

Read through all of the posts in this thread and you'll see why Zionism and Nazism have so much in common.

[#FF0000]

>Ethnonationalism
>Ethnic supremacism
>Racism
>Ethnic cleansing

oh neat a list of things that are characteristic of many other countries aside from Nazi Germany

[Raúl Duke]

While I feel comparing zionism to nazism is a bit too much...
I actually find the comparison between Israel and apartheid South Africa to be pretty apt describing the situation of Israel vis-a-vis Palestinians.

However, I feel this thread has open a whole can of worms and feel it's getting to the point where it ain't going anywhere.
The question has been answered as well: Yes, there has been neo-nazis who are/might have been Jewish (i.e. the Russian Jews who formed neo-nazi groups in Israel; while they may not see themselves as Jewish, they're considered as such by Israel.)

[Nox]

oh neat a list of things that are characteristic of many other countries aside from Nazi Germany

A country where those things are the official policy of the state, please name one (besides Israel of course).

Let's reverse the roles here, show me one fundamental of Nazism that isn't the same or similar to a fundamental of Zionism.

[tfb]

No.

And no one isn't saying Israel doesn't suck. We're saying it's stupid to compare them to the Nazis (just like it is stupid and childish to compare anyone to the Nazis unless they are literally Nazis).

You don't compare something to itself. That's pointless. You compare something to something similar.

[ColonelCossack]

A country where those things are the official policy of the state, please name one (besides Israel of course).

Let's reverse the roles here, show me one fundamental of Nazism that isn't the same or similar to a fundamental of Zionism.

The nazis were pro- aryan state and the Zionists are pro- jewish state.

Beyond that...

[bricolage]

A country where those things are the official policy of the state, please name one (besides Israel of course).
the turkey comparison (a state that 'anti-zionists' are often eager to align themselves with) that sometimes gets brought up here always seems a good one to me.

Let's reverse the roles here, show me one fundamental of Nazism that isn't the same or similar to a fundamental of Zionism.
a mass fascist movement emerging out of the defeat of workers revolt, the conflation of party and state, gas chambers. thats a start anyway.

[Sasha]

A country where those things are the official policy of the state, please name one (besides Israel of course).

Except that in Israel it isn't either, Israel is as officially Jewish as the united states is Christian.
But to give you a short list of countries with similar racist settler behavior towards minorities:
Indonesia
China
Australia
New Zealand
U.S.
Turkey
Chili
Burma
Mexico
Papua new guinea
Etc
Etc

[Die Rote Fahne]

That's a very crude straw man, and as much as I'm against it, supporting the principle of a Jewish state by no means equates to supporting the Nazi's

You support a state on ethnic lines. This is quite bourgeois.

[hatzel]

Oh, it's one of those threads again...and to think I was looking forward to discussing Patrol 35 :crying:


Let's reverse the roles here, show me one fundamental of Nazism that isn't the same or similar to a fundamental of Zionism.

Well Nazism seemed to like some traditional rural völkisch nationalism and appeals to culture and tradition and the old German way of life, and were thus critical of the 'cosmopolitan' urban lifestyle, artistic and cultural advances, stuff like that. All of which they attacked as Jewish subversion, drawing the German people away from the ancient ways. Hence all the book burnings and the hating on jazz and the 12-tone technique and all that. Zionists, on the other hand, said "hey hey let's go and make literally the most technologically and culturally and everything else advanced country there ever was, with all these lovely shiny cities and everything, and get rid of all the old ways of the diaspora, oh yeah!" Also Nazis were extremely happy to attack democracy for the whole thing about it letting minorities and liberals and stuff vote and mess up the whole 'process' (which is why there was a bit of a dictatorship going on over there, don't know if you heard), whilst even Herzl the monarchist(!!!) argued strongly in favour of a liberal democracy and virulently attacked the idea that non-Jews (or, in fact, anybody at all) wouldn't be given the vote. To cite just two examples.

[Bronco]

You support a state on ethnic lines. This is quite bourgeois.


That's a very crude straw man, and as much as I'm against it, supporting the principle of a Jewish state by no means equates to supporting the Nazi's

:confused:

I don't support any state, I specified my opposition to a Jewish state in my post

[Nox]

Except that in Israel it isn't either, Israel is as officially Jewish as the united states is Christian.
But to give you a short list of countries with similar racist settler behavior towards minorities:
Indonesia
China
Australia
New Zealand
U.S.
Turkey
Chili
Burma
Mexico
Papua new guinea
Etc
Etc

You're basing that argument on the misassumption that the term 'Jew' only applies to people who follow the Jewish religion. It's actually a term that encompasses all people who follow the Jewish religion (whom are almost entirely of Jewish ethnicity) as well as the ethnicities that make up the Jewish people. For example, I'm an Atheist and 1/4 Jewish by ethnicity.

When was the last time any of those countries:

- Ethnically cleansed their land (Israel and Nazi Germany are doing/did that)
- Invaded other countries for lebensraum (Israel and Nazi Germany are doing/did that)
- Had a government who was totally open about their fascist ideas (Israel and Nazi Germany's government does/did that)
- Had a government that advocated Jewish ethnonationalism and Jewish supremacy (Israel and Nazi Germany's government does/did that)

[Nox]

Except that in Israel it isn't either, Israel is as officially Jewish as the united states is Christian.
But to give you a short list of countries with similar racist settler behavior towards minorities:
Indonesia
China
Australia
New Zealand
U.S.
Turkey
Chili
Burma
Mexico
Papua new guinea
Etc
Etc

That argument could also be used to defend Nazi Germany...

Just sayin'

[Sasha]

You're basing that argument on the misassumption that the term 'Jew' only applies to people who follow the Jewish religion. It's actually a term that encompasses all people who follow the Jewish religion (whom are almost entirely of Jewish ethnicity) as well as the ethnicities that make up the Jewish people. For example, I'm an Atheist and 1/4 Jewish by ethnicity.

When was the last time any of those countries:

- Ethnically cleansed their land
- Invaded other countries for lebensraum
- Had a government who was totally open about their fascist ideas
- Had a government that advocated Jewish ethnonationalism and Jewish supremacy

All the countries I listed are settler states known for ethnic cleansing, state religion, ethnic superiority
And no, not even the minority extreme right in Israel could all be described as fascist, kach e.a. yes but no liebermans party not.
Seems your returning theme in your critism of Israel seems to be that its Jewish.... funny that :rolleyes:

[bricolage]

For example, I'm an Atheist and 1/4 Jewish by ethnicity.
Might be corrected here but I don't think there is such a thing as 1/4 Jewish, either your mum is or she aint.


Ethnically cleansed their land (Israel and Nazi Germany are doing/did that)
- Invaded other countries for lebensraum (Israel and Nazi Germany are doing/did that)
- Had a government who was totally open about their fascist ideas (Israel and Nazi Germany's government does/did that)
- Had a government that advocated Jewish ethnonationalism and Jewish supremacy (Israel and Nazi Germany's government does/did that)
Turkey.

but...

- Had a government that advocated Jewish ethnonationalism and Jewish supremacy (Israel and Nazi Germany's government does/did that)
I never knew Nazi Germany advocated 'Jewish ethnonationalism and Jewish supremacy'...

[Nox]

All the countries I listed are settler states known for ethnic cleansing, state religion, ethnic superiority
And no, not even the minority extreme right in Israel could all be described as fascist, kach e.a. yes but no liebermans party not.
Seems your returning theme in your critism of Israel seems to be that its Jewish.... funny that :rolleyes:

Exactly, and Israel today is just as bad as those settler states were hundreds of years ago.

I'd like to refer you to the picture I posted on the previous page, with the Jew running towards the alarm box.

[individualist communist]

There's nothing wrong with a Jewish state,however it shouldn't be in Palestine.
There is something wrong with a state only for a certain ethnic group. Actually there is something wrong with all states, but states based on reserving a piece of land only for one ethnic group are more wrong.

[Nox]

Might be corrected here but I don't think there is such a thing as 1/4 Jewish, either your mum is or she aint.


Turkey.

but...

I never knew Nazi Germany advocated 'Jewish ethnonationalism and Jewish supremacy'...

My grandfather was Ashkenazi, therefore I am 1/4 Ashkenazi - religious traditions play no part in ethnic grouping.

I wasn't aware that Turkey was a homogenous state that invaded other countries for lebensraum and ethnically cleansed every non-Turk living there. :rolleyes:

[Nox]

I never knew Nazi Germany advocated 'Jewish ethnonationalism and Jewish supremacy'...

Nazi Germany advocated Germanic ethnonationalism and Germanic supremacy :rolleyes:

Like I said, Nazism and Zionism are the same shit with different people involved.

[individualist communist]

If they can somehow lower the sea level and create more land, fine. Just don't push in where someone already is.
LOL what are you talking about? So people should't be allowed to live wherever they want to? You dont support free migration? Or do you just dont support free migration by jews?

[Nox]

LOL what are you talking about? So people should't be allowed to live wherever they want to? You dont support free migration? Or do you just dont support free migration by jews?

He is referring to the Zionists who wanted to create a Jewish ethnonationalist state in Palestine. Also known today as Israel.

[S.Artesian]

I know what you're trying to say, and it's true that the Palestinians haven't been murdered to the same level as the Jews were... yet.

But that doesn't change the fact that the concept is exactly the same and that's the point I'm trying to make: The fundamentals of Zionism and Nazism are exactly the same.


They may similar or the same in the notions of ethnic purity, "blood," race, and confusing those social constructions as biological ones so they can they turn around and use the social constructions to justify destruction, exploitation, violence, but they are different in their historical moments so to speak.

There is a definite economic basis to fascism, including Nazi-ism, that is based on the response to heightened class struggle, and the need to pulverize the working class resistance. There is the corporatist integration of state and private capital against workers self-organization.

Zionism doesn't have, IMO, that same root in capitalist economic necessity-- probably because it wasn't about struggling for power within an existing capitalist country-- but establishing a country instead. That's why I think Zionism runs quite parallel to the Boer Afrikaner mythology.

But I haven't made a real big study of this.

The tactics and strategy of the Zionists in dealing with the people who they wish to expel-- dispossession, stripping of legal status, forced concentration in restricted areas, collective punishment, deprivation of basic needs in food, medicine, shelter, education etc. is quite similar to Nazi practices-- but then we have to keep in mind that the Nazis did not invent these practices. They surfaced and were tried out by the British in the Boer War, the Spanish against the Cubans in the second Cuban Revolution, the US in the Philippines when it took over from Spain and waged the battle to suppress Aguinaldo's Republic [particlulary on Cavite, and also against the Muslim people in the archipelago].

So we can say that Zionism has borrowed its strategy from all those who practiced concentration of civilians under conditions of deprivation including the Nazis.

[bricolage]

I wasn't aware that Turkey was a homogenous state that invaded other countries for lebensraum and ethnically cleansed every non-Turk living there. :rolleyes:
1. Turkey is not a homogenous state. Neither is Israel.
2. Turkey invaded Iraq in the last few months. It does it quite a bit. Furthermore if Israel occupies Palestine then Turkey occupies Kurdistan in the same way.
3. Turkey was founded on the Armenian genocide and has since then killed more Kurds than Israel has killed Palestinians.
4. Turkey has not ethnically cleansed every non-Turk in Turkey, likewise Israel has not ethnically cleansed every non-Jew in Israel.

[Nox]

So we can say that Zionism has borrowed its strategy from all those who practiced concentration of civilians under conditions of deprivation including the Nazis.

Thank you.

[bricolage]

Nazi Germany advocated Germanic ethnonationalism and Germanic supremacy :rolleyes:
That's not what you wrote though is it.

[individualist communist]

the turkey comparison (a state that 'anti-zionists' are often eager to align themselves with) that sometimes gets brought up here always seems a good one to me.
Yeah, seriously some of the things Turkey did in the early 20th century were worse than some things nazi Germany did and far worse than what Israel is doing today.

[Sasha]

Nazi Germany advocated Germanic ethnonationalism and Germanic supremacy :rolleyes:

Like I said, Nazism and Zionism are the same shit with different people involved.

Both you as the nazis substitutea class analysis with a race analysis.

Nox and nazism are the same shit....

See how that (doesn't) work?

[Nox]

1. Turkey is not a homogenous state. Neither is Israel.
2. Turkey invaded Iraq in the last few months. It does it quite a bit. Furthermore if Israel occupies Palestine then Turkey occupies Kurdistan in the same way.
3. Turkey was founded on the Armenian genocide and has since then killed more Kurds than Israel has killed Palestinians.
4. Turkey has not ethnically cleansed every non-Turk in Turkey, likewise Israel has not ethnically cleansed every non-Jew in Israel.

Hmm...

Perhaps Turkey should be grouped with Israel and Nazi Germany, if you claim it's as bad as Israel.

[Nox]

Both you as the nazis substitutea class analysis with a race analysis.

Nox and nazism are the same shit....

See how that (doesn't) work?

You're right, what you said makes no sense at all. It's totally irrelevant to what we're saying.

I'm not saying Israel is like Nazi Germany (although there are some similarities), I'm just saying the fundamentals of Nazism and Zionism are the same.

[Nox]

The fundamentals of an ideology is a totally different discussion to the actions of a state that practises that ideology. I'd expect you of all people to know that.

[bricolage]

Hmm...

Perhaps Turkey should be grouped with Israel and Nazi Germany, if you claim it's as bad as Israel.
The United States was founded on genocide of its native population, it has throughout history practiced some of the most brutal segregation the world has ever seen, it has presided over mass lynching of black people, it has utilised concentration camps, it has been the only country to drop nuclear bombs, it has invaded countless countries, propped up countless dictators and perpetuated countless massacres.

Perhaps America should be grouped with Israel, Nazi Germany and Turkey too. Or perhaps things are a bit more complicated than this.

[Nox]

Perhaps America should be grouped with Israel, Nazi Germany and Turkey too. Or perhaps things are a bit more complicated than this.

Perhaps if America currently did all that it did back then, then it should be grouped with Israel and Nazi Germany. Same applies with Turkey.

[S.Artesian]

The United States was founded on genocide of its native population, it has throughout history practiced some of the most brutal segregation the world has ever seen, it has presided over mass lynching of black people, it has utilised concentration camps, it has been the only country to drop nuclear bombs, it has invaded countless countries, propped up countless dictators and perpetuated countless massacres.

Perhaps America should be grouped with Israel, Nazi Germany and Turkey too. Or perhaps things are a bit more complicated than this.

Right. Which doesn't make everything Nazi-ism all the time-- but it does establish the continuity that fascism, and Nazi-ism has with capitalism throughout its history. Now that's a valid point to make-- that Zionism has incorporated mechanisms, measures, and ideology typically associated with Nazi, and Nazi-like movements, and it does so because it is fundamentally tied to capitalism.

For the record, there can be no such thing as "socialist Zionism."

[bricolage]

Perhaps if America currently did all that it did back then, then it should be grouped with Israel and Nazi Germany. Same applies with Turkey.
Ok then so we ignore the Nakba because it happened 'back then'?

[individualist communist]

My grandfather was Ashkenazi, therefore I am 1/4 Ashkenazi - religious traditions play no part in ethnic grouping.

I wasn't aware that Turkey was a homogenous state that invaded other countries for lebensraum and ethnically cleansed every non-Turk living there. :rolleyes:
Seriously? During the turkish war of independence turkey commited genocide against armenians, greeks, and basicaly every christian in turkey, and afterwards had a policy encouriging ethnic greeks to leave the country, not to talk about the 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey.

[Rafiq]

There's a great film called "The Believer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Believer_(film))" about an American Neo-Nazi and Ku Klux Klan member who was exposed as being Jewish and killed himself as a result. It's based on the true story of Dan Burrows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Burros), although his Judaism and his Nazism aren't intrinsically linked or anything

That's horrible. Just goes to show what a virus Neo-Nazism is.

[bricolage]

Right. Which doesn't make everything Nazi-ism all the time-- but it does establish the continuity that fascism, and Nazi-ism has with capitalism throughout its history. Now that's a valid point to make-- that Zionism has incorporated mechanisms, measures, and ideology typically associated with Nazi, and Nazi-like movements, and it does so because it is fundamentally tied to capitalism.
But as you noted these measures and mechanism pre-date Nazism/fascism, they were employed for example by Britain the 'home of democracy' and America 'the land of the free'. While I pretty much agree with what are you saying this isn't what Nox is saying, he is making the lazy argument of crude anti-zionists that Israel IS Nazi Germany, that Nazi Germany is the only barometer of such mechanism and measures and that the only thing that differentiates the two is that one killed Jews and the other is run by Jews. This completely flies in the face of the basic communist analysis of fascism and is just lazy reductionism.


For the record, there can be no such thing as "socialist Zionism."
I don't think anyone here is actually claiming this.

[Nox]

Ok then so we ignore the Nakba because it happened 'back then'?

I'm saying that what happened hundreds of years ago doesn't mean America is a nazi-like state today.

Back then, sure it probably was.

[individualist communist]

Right. Which doesn't make everything Nazi-ism all the time-- but it does establish the continuity that fascism, and Nazi-ism has with capitalism throughout its history. Now that's a valid point to make-- that Zionism has incorporated mechanisms, measures, and ideology typically associated with Nazi, and Nazi-like movements, and it does so because it is fundamentally tied to capitalism.

For the record, there can be no such thing as "socialist Zionism."
The definition of socialism is worker ownership of the means of production, there is no reason why zionism could't be socialist.

[Rafiq]

There's plenty wrong with any "state", let alone a Jewish one.

We are revolutionary Leftists, not statists.

Let's not go there..

[Nox]

Anyway I'm off now, only one person has addressed the original point I made, everyone else is just arguing about stuff thats totally irrelevant to my original point.

[S.Artesian]

But as you noted these measures and mechanism pre-date Nazism/fascism, they were employed for example by Britain the 'home of democracy' and America 'the land of the free'. While I pretty much agree with what are you saying this isn't what Nox is saying, he is making the lazy argument of crude anti-zionists that Israel IS Nazi Germany, that Nazi Germany is the only barometer of such mechanism and measures and that the only thing that differentiates the two is that one killed Jews and the other is run by Jews. This completely flies in the face of the basic communist analysis of fascism and is just lazy reductionism.


I disagree also with the identity of Israel with Nazi Germany, based as you say on the fundamentals of a materialist analysis.

I've tried to point out where Israel deviates substantially, in its social organization, from the Nazis organization of Germany. I think what Nox is stating would be better served by showing that Israel is using the tactics the Nazis used, and that use springs from its organization as a capitalist entity that covers itself in an ideology of "ethnic separation" and "blood."

[bricolage]

I'm saying that what happened hundreds of years ago doesn't mean America is a nazi-like state today.
Half of what I said did not happen hundreds of years ago. Half of it happened around the same time Israel was being created and all that accompanied it. But of course that was 'back then'

Back then, sure it probably was.
So it was a nazi-like state before the nazis existed? sure thing.

[ColonelCossack]

LOL what are you talking about? So people should't be allowed to live wherever they want to? You dont support free migration? Or do you just dont support free migration by jews?

No, of course I didn't mean it like that. I meant that no group should be able to set up their own state where there already was one. That in no way means that Jewish people can't live there; I don't know how you managed to infer that from my point. It just means that I disagree with lebensraum and its ilk.

[S.Artesian]

The definition of socialism is worker ownership of the means of production, there is no reason why zionism could't be socialist.


The definition of Zionism is that Jews as Jews have a common interest that supersedes any and all difference in their class relations.

That is the reason why Zionism cannot be socialist. Unless of course you believe in "volk Socialism"-- in which case, I'm with Nox.

[ColonelCossack]

No, of course I didn't mean it like that. I meant that no group should be able to set up their own state where there already was one. That in no way means that Jewish people can't live there; I don't know how you managed to infer that from my point. It just means that I disagree with lebensraum and its ilk.

Its like, if someone lived somewhere, I wouldn't beat them up, kick them out and start living there myself.

[Rafiq]

The definition of socialism is worker ownership of the means of production, there is no reason why zionism could't be socialist.

That is NOT the definition of socialism.

How should I put it.... Taking out a chunk of shit (but leaving other shit) from a pie and replacing it with berries still makes it a shit-pie.

[Rafiq]

I'm saying that what happened hundreds of years ago doesn't mean America is a nazi-like state today.

Back then, sure it probably was.

We identify Fascism with the Bourgreoisie's last resort, therefore Israel couldn't be compared to Nazi Germany because it wasn't formed out of desperation as a response to the crumbling and rotting capitalist mode of production and the growing rise of proletariat power. Palestinians are treated horribly. But not as horrible as the Jews were in germany.

And those cartoons are undoubtly antisemitic propaganda drowned with pretty liberal colors and symbolism.

[Nox]

And those cartoons are undoubtly antisemitic propaganda drowned with pretty liberal colors and symbolism.

I don't know where they're from, but they just seem pro-Palestine to me.

I wonder if it's even possible to speak about against Zionism without being called an anti-semite, even on a communist forum...

[S.Artesian]

I don't know where they're from, but they just seem pro-Palestine to me.

I wonder if it's even possible to speak about against Zionism without being called an anti-semite, even on a communist forum...

Sure it is. It's done all the time. I'm anti-Zionist. I've never been accused of being anti-Jewish, here or on any other forum.

[Nox]

Sure it is. It's done all the time. I'm anti-Zionist. I've never been accused of being anti-Jewish, here or on any other forum.

I've been accused of anti-semitism (despite being 1/4 Jewish) twice on this thread, simply for pointing out fucking obvious similarities between Zionism and Nazism, so obvious that you've have to be blind not to see them.

[Sasha]

I have argued extensively that current israel society resembles 1930s Germany, yet I have not be called an anti-semite (to the contrary I have been repeatedly called a zionist here)
But that is because I offered a coherent and nuanced argument and you are making charged bullshit statements.

Oh, and being "1/4th Jewish" doesn't get you a get out of jail card, you can be perfectly jewish and still a anti-semite, WHICH WAS WHERE THIS WHOLE THREAD WAS ABOUT REMEMBER?

[Nox]

I have argued extensively that current israel society resembles 1930s Germany, yet I have not be called an anti-semite (to the contrary I have been repeatedly called a zionist here)
But that is because I offered a coherent and nuanced argument and you are making charged bullshit statements.


It is you who misunderstands me.

If you go back and actually read my posts, you'll see that my original statement was that the fundamental aspects of Zionism/Fascism/Nazism are similar/the same. If you're going to try and deny that then I won't bother responding...

I didn't mention anything about the actions of Israel or Nazi Germany until a bunch of people derailed the argument. Again, if you go back and read my posts you'll see that.


Oh, and being "1/4th Jewish" doesn't get you a get out of jail card, you can be perfectly jewish and still a anti-semite, WHICH WAS WHERE THIS WHOLE THREAD WAS ABOUT REMEMBER?

I didn't mean it in that way, I said it to show you that 'Jew' is an ethnicity and when people say it in the context of nationalism, 99% of the time they're talking about the ethnicity not the religion.

I know what this thread is about, you're wasting your energy typing shit out in caps.

[Hoggy_RS]

The fella who produced Sea Monkeys was a Jew and involved with white supremacist groups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_von_Braunhut

[Sasha]

It is you who misunderstands me.

oh no, i understand you perfectly, you dug yourself a hole in a mountain of bullshit that you cant get out of anymore..



If you go back and actually read my posts, you'll see that my original statement was that the fundamental aspects of Zionism/Fascism/Nazism are similar/the same. i did and repeating it doesnt make it any more true..



If you're going to try and deny that then I won't bother responding...

pathetic cop out 101



I didn't mention anything about the actions of Israel or Nazi Germany until a bunch of people derailed the argument. Again, if you go back and read my posts you'll see that.


your argument boils down to that they are both ethnic supramecy ideologies who did nasty shit to other ethnic groups.
yes, if you think that is the essence of nazism and zionism than yes they are in essence the same.
but
a. as proven by several posters in this thread that would make a ton of other countries/ideaologies, i would even say the mayority of all existing bourgois nation states also the same as nazism/zionism
and b. its still false.
for example zionists themselves cant even decide themselves wheter they are a ethnic, religious or a social movement.
multiculturalism, progressive enlightment and communism/socialism have been way longer a fundamental part of the development of zionism than sepretarism, kolonialism and ethnic chauvinism.

yes, current dominant zionism is a repulsive abomination that might well be the destruction of the fundaments that created progressive judeaism and that could concievably result eventually in yes even an palestinian/arab genocide but its still, and never will be, nothing like nazism.

[hatzel]

If you go back and actually read my posts, you'll see that my original statement was that the fundamental aspects of Zionism/Fascism/Nazism are similar/the same. If you're going to try and deny that then I won't bother responding...

I didn't mention anything about the actions of Israel or Nazi Germany until a bunch of people derailed the argument. Again, if you go back and read my posts you'll see that.

To be honest I haven't seen you say much at all about the fundamentals of Zionism/Fascism/Nazism (though perhaps I missed those posts). I haven't seen the quotes from Ahad Ha'am, minutes from the ZO's 1923 congress, critical analysis of the similarities (if there are any) between Altneuland and Mein Kampf. Nothing at all like that. The only concrete talk of fundamentals we've seen in this thread, removed from actions of this or that State, is the crude 'Nazi Germany = a State for the German people, Israel = a State for the Jewish people, ergo Nazi Germany = Israel.' But this seems to conveniently forget the State for the Finnish people, for the Estonian people, the Latvian people, the Polish people, the Ukrainian people, the Italian people, the Mexican people, the Japanese people, the Armenian people, the...yeah, you get the idea of how nation States work.

In fact those fundamentals are so widespread that they hardly even warrant a mention. There's a nation State here, and a nation State there, big whoop, why does that matter? Nazi Germany was a State, Portugal is a State, both of them went around getting a bit colonialist, therefore they're exactly the same. Sure, they're both to be opposed for the whole being States thing, and their actions in the colonies should also be criticised, but to claim that Portugal and Nazi Germany are or were fundamentally the same thing (and using this as the basis for the criticism of Portugal) is just laughable. Maybe if the Portuguese State decided tomorrow to crack out all the union busting and extreme suppression of civil liberties and dictatorship and genocide and race war rhetoric and all that other Nazi crap we'd be on to something. But then we wouldn't necessarily be talking about the 'fundamental aspects' of the various currents and ideologies which gave rise to the so-called Carnation Revolution and the end of the Estado Novo, but to the actions of a State that burst forth from this, which may or may not be rooted in the 'fundamental aspects' of that gave rise to it. In fact, if the Portuguese State were to get all fascist and start setting up new colonies, I'd say the ruling ideology of the State would then be in direct opposition to the 'fundamental aspects' of the democratic anti-corporatist movement which gave rise to it. And I'm sure that many people who were involved in and supportive of the transition to democracy after 1974 would speak out against these actions. It wouldn't be difficult, either, to find plenty of Zionist writings forwarding ideas totally against those currently or historically forwarded by the Israeli State, either by looking back a century, or to more modern writers reacting to the various atrocities undertaken over there.

In order to address the 'fundamental aspects' of a movement, you can't talk exclusively of what became of it, how it realised itself in practice, the actions of its State representatives. That would be like doing the whole 'Marxism = Soviet Union, Soviet Union = bad, ergo Marxism = bad' thing, or assuming that the 1917 revolutionaries all had 1956 in mind, and that was what they were fighting for. One would have to go deeper, to the ideology itself, and begin to ask questions of it. How was Zionism fundamentally different from, for example, the Finnish national liberation movement? One difference would be that the Finnish national liberation movement was concerned with the land on which they stood, whilst the Zionist movement didn't want the land in Poland or Germany or Austria or anywhere else they found themselves, but in the Levant. This, however, would make Zionism and National Socialism fundamentally different, inasmuch as the German State at the time didn't call for Germans to abandon German soil, the land on which they stood, but to tighten their grasp on it.

This is before we even approach the issue of difference of opinion and intellectual conflict within the Zionist movement, both in its synthesis and the contemporary state of affairs, which makes identifying its 'fundamental aspects' terribly difficult. Even a simple statement such as 'a fundamental of Zionism is the establishment of a Jewish nation State' could be challenged by citing those Zionists who advocated a binational State, or (as was true in some cases) didn't even call for a (partly-)Jewish State at all, merely the movement of Jews to a certain part of what was then the Ottoman Empire, to then live in the Ottoman Empire, rather than in a State of their own. It's far too complex an issue to simply say "Israel has killed a shitload of people, therefore killing a shitload of people is a 'fundamental aspect' of Zionism."

[Nox]

Hmmm... Those are some fair points. I definitely agree with this:


But this seems to conveniently forget the State for the Finnish people, for the Estonian people, the Latvian people, the Polish people, the Ukrainian people, the Italian people, the Mexican people, the Japanese people, the Armenian people, the...yeah, you get the idea of how nation States work.

I was about to say "but the Israeli government discriminates against other ethnicities" but you could say the same about any other country, to varying degrees.

I guess, from this perspective, what I was trying to say is that Israel is pretty bad in terms of how much it discriminates against other ethnicities, and Nazi Germany was also very bad, as was the Confederacy etc etc. And then you could say that even America today or any country is also bad but to a lesser degree which I'd definitely agree with.

That's kind-of what I was trying to say all along, I just communicated it in the wrong way.

[Mike X]

LOL... Yes, oddly enough there have been quite a few. I guess it is the ultimate Jewish sexual fantasy.

Even in Nazi Germany there were Jews who were members of the Nazi Party. Reinhard Heydrich (the Blonde Beast and head of the SD) was rumored to be of Jewish extraction. And, everybody has heard the rumor that Adolf Hitler himself was Jewish...

Self-loathing? Maybe, or perhaps just a need to belong to something forbidden?

What did Groucho Marx say, "I won't belong to any organization that would have me as a member."

Also, there is the simple fact that the most successful neo-Nazis today are the Zionists. That in itself is quite amazing (and amusing)....

[Sasha]

Also, there is the simple fact that the most successful neo-Nazis today are the Zionists.


no they are not, read the thread, stop saying dumb shit like that you are making everybody look stupid

[freepalestine]

multiculturalism, progressive enlightment and communism/socialism have been way longer a fundamental part of the development of zionism than sepretarism, kolonialism and ethnic chauvinism.

yes, current dominant zionism is a repulsive abomination that might well be the destruction of the fundaments that created progressive judeaism and that could concievably result eventually in yes even an palestinian/arab genocide but its still, and never will be, nothing like nazism.the first point is slightly wrong.progressive for some socialists who were zionists maybe.
altho you could highlight zionist revisionism,fascism of jabotinsky et al.that is quickly becoming mainstream zionism.
as for the bold text ,well it's all ok then .makes absolute no sense.as some of your other comments don't,where you can sound like an zionist apologist,if meaning to or not.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story640.html(jabotinsky)


To be honest I haven't seen you say much at all about the fundamentals of Zionism/Fascism/Nazism (though perhaps I missed those posts). I haven't seen the quotes from Ahad Ha'am, minutes from the ZO's 1923 congress, critical analysis of the similarities (if there are any) between Altneuland and Mein Kampf. Nothing at all like that. The only concrete talk of fundamentals we've seen in this thread, removed from actions of this or that State, is the crude 'Nazi Germany = a State for the German people, Israel = a State for the Jewish people, ergo Nazi Germany = Israel.' But this seems to conveniently forget the State for the Finnish people, for the Estonian people, the Latvian people, the Polish people, the Ukrainian people, the Italian people, the Mexican people, the Japanese people, the Armenian people, the...yeah, you get the idea of how nation States work.

In fact those fundamentals are so widespread that they hardly even warrant a mention. There's a nation State here, and a nation State there, big whoop, why does that matter? Nazi Germany was a State, Portugal is a State, both of them went around getting a bit colonialist, therefore they're exactly the same. Sure, they're both to be opposed for the whole being States thing, and their actions in the colonies should also be criticised, but to claim that Portugal and Nazi Germany are or were fundamentally the same thing (and using this as the basis for the criticism of Portugal) is just laughable. Maybe if the Portuguese State decided tomorrow to crack out all the union busting and extreme suppression of civil liberties and dictatorship and genocide and race war rhetoric and all that other Nazi crap we'd be on to something. But then we wouldn't necessarily be talking about the 'fundamental aspects' of the various currents and ideologies which gave rise to the so-called Carnation Revolution and the end of the Estado Novo, but to the actions of a State that burst forth from this, which may or may not be rooted in the 'fundamental aspects' of that gave rise to it. In fact, if the Portuguese State were to get all fascist and start setting up new colonies, I'd say the ruling ideology of the State would then be in direct opposition to the 'fundamental aspects' of the democratic anti-corporatist movement which gave rise to it. And I'm sure that many people who were involved in and supportive of the transition to democracy after 1974 would speak out against these actions. It wouldn't be difficult, either, to find plenty of Zionist writings forwarding ideas totally against those currently or historically forwarded by the Israeli State, either by looking back a century, or to more modern writers reacting to the various atrocities undertaken over there.

In order to address the 'fundamental aspects' of a movement, you can't talk exclusively of what became of it, how it realised itself in practice, the actions of its State representatives. That would be like doing the whole 'Marxism = Soviet Union, Soviet Union = bad, ergo Marxism = bad' thing, or assuming that the 1917 revolutionaries all had 1956 in mind, and that was what they were fighting for. One would have to go deeper, to the ideology itself, and begin to ask questions of it. How was Zionism fundamentally different from, for example, the Finnish national liberation movement? One difference would be that the Finnish national liberation movement was concerned with the land on which they stood, whilst the Zionist movement didn't want the land in Poland or Germany or Austria or anywhere else they found themselves, but in the Levant. This, however, would make Zionism and National Socialism fundamentally different, inasmuch as the German State at the time didn't call for Germans to abandon German soil, the land on which they stood, but to tighten their grasp on it.

This is before we even approach the issue of difference of opinion and intellectual conflict within the Zionist movement, both in its synthesis and the contemporary state of affairs, which makes identifying its 'fundamental aspects' terribly difficult. Even a simple statement such as 'a fundamental of Zionism is the establishment of a Jewish nation State' could be challenged by citing those Zionists who advocated a binational State, or (as was true in some cases) didn't even call for a (partly-)Jewish State at all, merely the movement of Jews to a certain part of what was then the Ottoman Empire, to then live in the Ottoman Empire, rather than in a State of their own. It's far too complex an issue to simply say "Israel has killed a shitload of people, therefore killing a shitload of people is a 'fundamental aspect' of Zionism."well krimskrams i would ask people to read your posts in the past,on here and elsewhere.in my opinion you are zionist.and half of what you wrote there is snide and bs.
please mention the greater isreal project of zionism in the levant
also fascist religious zionism.
and fascist nationalist zionism.
and fascism of settlers.
never mind the racist nature of mainstream 'isreal'.

[Nox]

no they are not, read the thread, stop saying dumb shit like that you are making everybody look stupid

You keep saying that, but why?

Can you give me some major differences between the fundamental aspects of Zionism and Nazism please?

[Sasha]

*starts smashing head in brickwall*

[Sasha]

@ freepalestine, like argued in this thread before, not every form of ethnic racism, no not even genocide equals nazism, all apples are fruit, not all fruit are apples.

also stop crying zionist at other users, people who regularly toe the line at anti-semitism shouldn't be throwing stones in proverbial glass houses.

[Meditation]

How the f**** is this even possible it's like if you would say:
if its day it cant be night

[freepalestine]

@ freepalestine, like argued in this thread before, not every form of ethnic racism, no not even genocide equals nazism, all apples are fruit, not all fruit are apples.

also stop crying zionist at other users, people who regularly toe the line at anti-semitism shouldn't be throwing stones in proverbial glass houses.
so you just rely on insults,i didnt insult you did i
.get real psycho,all you ever do is back up zionism.
you tow the line at supporting genocide of palestinians,and think thats ok.
lol.it's a first, dont try that trick of 'antisemitism'.
as for krimskrams yes he is a zionist.

btw i never said anything about nazism,but zionism is fascist.you keep being an apologist for it.

[S.Artesian]

You keep saying that, but why?

Can you give me some major differences between the fundamental aspects of Zionism and Nazism please?


Sure, Zionism is a settler ideology and social manifestation, independent more or less, in its origins of the economic distress that is so important to the development of fascism.

Naziism is very much a movement designed, and functioning, as a weapon in class struggle, against the advance of the working class and the breakdown of the "usual" methods of capitalist control.

Naziism includes, requires a corporatist integration of the economy, and even articulates such an integration as being part of unifying the "Volk." While Israel, as a state, certainly exhibits corporatist facets, it does so only to the extent that all capitalist countries have such facets.

Naziism requires a mass social movement, a movement that is certainly funded and protected by big capital. Zionism does not require a mass social movement, mobilizing the economically distressed layers of petite-bourgeois.

[S.Artesian]

so you just rely on insults,i didnt insult you did i
.get real psycho,all you ever do is back up zionism.
you toe the line at supporting genocide of palestinians,and think thats ok.
lol.it's a first, dont try that trick of 'antisemitism'.
as for krimskrams yes he is a zionist.

btw i never said anything about nazism,but zionism is fascist.you keep being an apologist for it.


References to back up these accusations? Supporting genocide of palestinians? Where? Please provide the evidence for such a charge.

Pointing out the differences between Zionism and Naziism does not make one an apologist or supporter of either.

Provide the evidence or shut up.

[S.Artesian]

did you actually read what i said to 'psycho' .
i never mentioned nazism,i mentioned zionism/fascism and that was to krimskrams.
read what i highlightedin bold to psycho,that he wrote about palestinians.


Can you even read? I asked you to provide evidence for your accusations, whatever they may be. I only mentioned "Nazi-ism" in reference to Nox's claim that Zionism and Naziism are equivalents.

So get somebody to read this to you, or draw you a picture, and back up your accusations to psycho. Or just shut up and drift away.

[Sasha]

References to back up these accusations? Supporting genocide of palestinians? Where? Please provide the evidence for such a charge.

Pointing out the differences between Zionism and Naziism does not make one an apologist or supporter of either.

Provide the evidence or shut up.

He can't, freepalestine constantly calls all Jewish members here, even those who openly and constantly reject zionism and israels politics zionist baby killing genocide supporters, which is really the proof in the pudding about his unwillingness to differentiate between zionists and jews...

[freepalestine]

He can't, freepalestine constantly calls all Jewish members here, even those who openly and constantly reject zionism and israels politics zionist baby killing genocide supporters, which is really the proof in the pudding about his unwillingness to differentiate between zionists and jews...
unreal.yeh i cant differentiate zionists from anarchists either,'psycho'

[Yazman]

psycho, be careful. This isn't a thread for shit talking other users.

[Sasha]

Hey I didn't start it, fp needs to stop harassing la sombra throughout the board, we have good precedent this isnt accepted behavior here.

[Tim Finnegan]

You keep saying that, but why?

Can you give me some major differences between the fundamental aspects of Zionism and Nazism please?
The obvious would be that there is rather by definition no "Labour Nazism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Zionism)". That alone suggests that there are complexities that this trite sloganeering does not acknowledge.


LOL... Yes, oddly enough there have been quite a few. I guess it is the ultimate Jewish sexual fantasy.
Surely this constitutes an anti-Semitic remark?

[Nox]

*starts smashing head in brickwall*

Haha Psycho, I think I've been confusing Nazism with Fascism this whole time :laugh:

[S.Artesian]

I have asked for FP to produce evidence, data, references, to back his accusation that psycho "toes [sic] the line at committing genocide of Palestinians."

Perhaps FP has a language problem with English [understandable if he's French]. First, it's not "toes" the line... it's tows the line, like a tug tows the line connected to a tanker or dry bulk carrier; like a horse tows a cart.

Secondly, towing the line means to accept, agree, conform to the line being towed, i.e. in this case psycho supporting genocide of Palestinians.

So if FP is linguistically confused, then he needs to correct his confusion.

Beyond that, he also charged that "all [Psycho does] is back up Zionism"-- there's no possibility of linguistic confusion or ignorance as the basis for that accusation; only real confusion and ignorance can explain that, unless FP actually can provide some evidence of this.

I haven't come across anything where psycho endorses, backs up Zionism.

So if FP can provide such evidence, then essentially IMO, he's the one talking shit; flaming shit.

[Sasha]

Haha Psycho, I think I've been confusing Nazism with Fascism this whole time :laugh:

Except that zionism isn't inherently fascist either but that's a common enough mistake on this board...
You see, while there are certainly (proto-) fascist zionist groups (example: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach_and_Kahane_Chai) and plenty of extreme right zionists (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yisrael_Beiteinu) there are also still plenty of social-democratic and even communist zionists who reject the occupation and anti-arab/Palestinian racism (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Zionism)
If the Israeli state is not and until now never been a fascist state (not excluding that it could in the future become one) but is in fact contrary to most countries in the region a functioning democracy, a very faulty and ingrained with (institutional and social) racism democracy but still a democracy non the less, and if zionism lies at its foundation than zionism is not fascist.
Don't get me wrong, there is plenty of things, inherently or not, wrong with zionism but calling it fascist (let alone nazistic) is helping no one and only muddles the debate and give our opponent room for distractions.

[S.Artesian]

Except that zionism isn't inherently fascist either but that's a common enough mistake on this board...
You see, while there are certainly (proto-) fascist zionist groups (example: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach_and_Kahane_Chai) and plenty of extreme right zionists (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yisrael_Beiteinu) there are also still plenty of social-democratic and even communist zionists who reject the occupation and anti-arab/Palestinian racism (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Zionism)
If the Israeli state is not and until now never been a fascist state (not excluding that it could in the future become one) but is in fact contrary to most countries in the region a functioning democracy, a very faulty and ingrained with (institutional and social) racism democracy but still a democracy non the less, and if zionism lies at its foundation than zionism is not fascist.
Don't get me wrong, there is plenty of things, inherently or not, wrong with zionism but calling it fascist (let alone nazistic) is helping no one and only muddles the debate and give our opponent room for distractions.

I wouldn't call Israel a "functioning democracy" anymore than I called apartheid South Africa a functioning democracy, Ian Smith's Rhodesia a functioning democracy.

Calling Israel a functioning democracy also muddles the debate.

[Sasha]

But Israeli Arabs and Palestines living within its borders have equal voting rights, in fact the reason kach and its splits are banned is because the Israeli constitution explicitly bans racists party's.
It's in occupied palestine that it isn't democratic, but than one would need to argue that the US during yhe occupation of Iraq/afghanistan wasn't a democracy, or the U.K. during central rule of NI.
Sure you could but it would sound silly.
While there are certainly parallels with southafrican appartheid (and i have used the analogy often enough myself) there are also plenty enough differences.
Israel and the occupation are beasts of their own.

[S.Artesian]

But Israeli Arabs and Palestines living within its borders have equal voting rights, in fact the reason kach and its splits are banned is because the Israeli constitution explicitly bans racists party's.
It's in occupied palestine that it isn't democratic, but than one would need to argue that the US during yhe occupation of Iraq/afghanistan wasn't a democracy, or the U.K. during central rule of NI.
Sure you could but it would sound silly.
While there are certainly parallels with southafrican appartheid (and i have used the analogy often enough myself) there are also plenty enough differences.
Israel and the occupation are beasts of their own.

And in the US South, prior to 1963, blacks and whites formally had equal voting rights. Would you call the US Jim Crow South a "functioning democracy."

What is the reality of that formal 'right.' How about access to water, and land? Do Palestinians and Israeli Arabs have equal rights to those?

I said I wouldn't call Israel a functioning democracy, not that I would call it fascist. There is a difference. And that difference disqualifies your analogy of the US occupation of Iraq/Afghanistan. Would you call the US a "functioning democracy"? Such a term is an oxymoron when applied to capitalism. Doesn't make US fascist, does make it a capitalist property-holders republic.

[Sasha]

I was of course speaking about democracy as in how liberal bourgeois capitalists would like us to understand it.
But you are right functioning democracy is not the right choice of words to use on a revolutionairy leftist forum.

[bricolage]

in the sense that fascism arose directly opposed to liberal democracy and the spirit of the enlightenment (Mussolini; "We stand for... sheer categorical definitive antithesis to the world which still abides by the fundamental principles laid down in 1789" / Goebbels; "The year 1789 is hereby eradicated from history") Israel with 'free' elections and 'rights' (inverted commas there for a reason obviously) does not fit this mold.

to be honest I dislike the branding of anything 'bad' as fascist not just because it's historically inaccurate but because it follows the brackets of fascism=bad, liberal democracy=good. the fact that essential liberal/representative democracies are able to practice ethnic cleansing, systematic exclusion and national oppression seems a far better justification of our arguments than the idea that if they do it they must be fascist.

[JerryBiscoTrey]

Patrol 35'd

[freepalestine]

He can't, freepalestine constantly calls all Jewish members here, even those who openly and constantly reject zionism and israels politics zionist baby killing genocide supporters, which is really the proof in the pudding about his unwillingness to differentiate between zionists and jews...what are youtalking about.i have said noone is zionist.not even you if youd read what i said.btw there is no need to tell lies,as for krimskrams,conrademan,bud struggle they are zionists.



Hey I didn't start it, fp needs to stop harassing la sombra throughout the board, we have good precedent this isnt accepted behavior here.lol.you are now resorting to telling more lies read .through my posts.see where i have harrassed sombra/krimskrams or anyone.if someone posts racist posts about palestinians/arabs /muslims then i'm going to comment.



But Israeli Arabs and Palestines living within its borders have equal voting rights, in fact the reason kach and its splits are banned is because the Israeli constitution explicitly bans racists party's.
It's in occupied palestine that it isn't democratic, [apologist.??]maybe you should read up on arab and leftist partys in occupied palestine/isreal.
also,are you sure isreals palestinian's minority have equal rights ?
never mind isreal becoming more racist in their policys ,and rise of state racism and religious/settler fascists e.g.shas,isreal beteinhu etc

[Nox]

calling it fascist (let alone nazistic) is helping no one and only muddles the debate and give our opponent room for distractions.

It's not muddling the debate, it's just making an observation.

I do take on board what you said, there are some left-wing groups in Israel but my point is that under the current government it's certainly fascist, and it's been fascist for a very long time.

[Sasha]

Then you have no idea what fascism entails...

I'll just refer you to bricolages excellent post:
in the sense that fascism arose directly opposed to liberal democracy and the spirit of the enlightenment (Mussolini; "We stand for... sheer categorical definitive antithesis to the world which still abides by the fundamental principles laid down in 1789" / Goebbels; "The year 1789 is hereby eradicated from history") Israel with 'free' elections and 'rights' (inverted commas there for a reason obviously) does not fit this mold.

to be honest I dislike the branding of anything 'bad' as fascist not just because it's historically inaccurate but because it follows the brackets of fascism=bad, liberal democracy=good. the fact that essential liberal/representative democracies are able to practice ethnic cleansing, systematic exclusion and national oppression seems a far better justification of our arguments than the idea that if they do it they must be fascist.

[Nox]

Then you have no idea what fascism entails...




(in general use) Extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.

I'm going by the general definition of the word.

[S.Artesian]

I'm going by the general definition of the word.


Yeah, but that's not what fascism is. We are not talking about the "general definition"-- we are talking about fascism as a specific social movement, a specific organization of capital.

[S.Artesian]

Me? I'm still waiting for FP to back up these assertions:


.get real psycho,all you ever do is back up zionism.
you toe the line at supporting genocide of palestinians,and think thats ok.

So where does psycho back up zionism?

Where does he tow the line of supporting genocide?

Or did FP intend to saw psycho "draws the line at supporting genocide"? In which case correct the post, and provide the references to psycho's support of Zionism.

[Eleftherios]

And you call yourself a communist why, now again?

So your arguing that every nation does not have the right to self-determination? I know your an anarchist, but I fail to see how he is not a communist when he espousing the exact same thing that Lenin did

The problem with a Jewish state in Palestine is that it is built on a land that once belonged almost exclusively to another ethnicity, the Palestinians.

Germany is pretty much ethnically homogenous, and has been for some time, while Israel has only become so in the recent past by ethnically cleansing the local population. Therefore, I fail to see how the two situations are applicable. While everyone should have a right to emigrate to German land, I fail to see how that should prevent Germany from being German (in the national sense, not in the ethnic/racial sense).

Another problem with the Jewish state is that, unlike an American state in the US, Jewishness is not only a nationality, but it is also an ethnicity, religion, and race (according tot he state of Israel), wich totally excludes the Palestinian people. Therefore, I see a much bigger problem with Israel being a Jewish state. While a Palestinian in the US can easily call himself an American and still be a Muslim Arab, a Palestinian cannot do the same thing in Israel, not by a long shot, where he/she will be treated as a second class citizen.

The problem with Hitler wanting a Germany for the Germans, is that he did not just mean Germany for German nationals, but he wanted a Germany for only people who were ethnically/racially German to the exclusion of everyone else. So in that sense that makes the comparison of Israelw ith Nazi Germany pretty accurate.

[red1936]

Correct me if im wrong (I HAVE NO SOURCE) but Ive heard rumors of there being a Zionist embassy in Berlin throughout the entire existence of the 3rd reich?