Does the ends

[BuyOurEverything]

Can the ends justify the means? Is it OK to do things that you would noramly oppose if the situation calls for it? For example, if someone has information that would save the lives of many people, like say the deactivation code for a bomb, and they won't give it up, is it OK to torture them? Or if you were in the middle of a revolution and had no prisons or places to keep prisoners and someone in your ranks was revealed to be a spy with vital information to the enemy, would you be justified in executing them? Even if they were, say a pregnant woman or a mother of four? If they give the enemy the information, you will lose many troops and equipment and innocent lives. Even if you think it is justified, could you bring yourself to kill a pregnant mother of four? Just a thought.

[FuckWar]

If you add up the ends, there is only briefness in whatever has happened, if it even ever ends. To say that the outcome of a heinous war is justified by moments of prosperity, then you are living in the moment. The ends are ephemeral, and the means are what leave a lasting impression. Every U.$. war ever has been of some amount of principal, if only to amintain captialism, but its truest downfall is in its means. Without so much civilian death, we may not specifically be the target of so much hatred. Look now. We have a moment of semi- victory in Iraq, we have toppled a repressive regime, but because our means are rediculous in every way, we will never be able to say that a country was liberated. The country was "liberated" with foreign bullets and corporations undermining any chance of economic regrowth. What we have now is a culmination of the means: insecurity, bitterness, and a sloppy imperial occupation that cannot possibly end well as far as I can see. I was never in favor of this war and never will be. The means will always screw over the ends, no matter how noble.

By the way, I know my Iraq reference to "semi- victory" is an overstatement. I mean from a G.W. angle sort of. This war was totally stupid in every way and I in no way condone or even comprehend any good reason why it occurred.

[Anti-Fascist]

Anyone who says that "the end never justifies the means"has not thought this
through. And here is why. If you work, receive some pay, the end justified the
means, otherwise you would not do the work. If you work, and receive food,
the end justified the means. Work is the means, food is the end.

On the other hand, anyone who says that "the end always justifies the means"
has not thought this through. And here is why. If you work, and receive no pay,
the end did not justify the means. Work is the means, and "no money" (or food)
is, in this case, the end. Clearly the end did not justify the means.

Some ends justify some means. If the end is noble enough,
any end is justified by whatever means, no matter what crime
must be commited to realise that end.

[Sheep]

I would do everything possible to avoid killing a pregnant mother. -- Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a bleeding heart that hates violence because that's untrue. I just would do anything in my power to avoid it, and if I had to resort to violence I would be confident that it was the last possible course. -- On the same note, if you we're the mother, would you put your unborn child in that situation?

[BuyOurEverything]

On the same note, if you we're the mother, would you put your unborn child in that situation?

Maybe you believe your actions would save an entire nation. Another means to an ends.


Anyone who says that "the end never justifies the means"has not thought this
through. And here is why. If you work, receive some pay, the end justified the
means, otherwise you would not do the work. If you work, and receive food,
the end justified the means. Work is the means, food is the end.

On the other hand, anyone who says that "the end always justifies the means"
has not thought this through. And here is why. If you work, and receive no pay,
the end did not justify the means. Work is the means, and "no money" (or food)
is, in this case, the end. Clearly the end did not justify the means.

Some ends justify some means. If the end is noble enough,
any end is justified by whatever means, no matter what crime
must be commited to realise that end.

OK, but if the ends gains you more than the means loses you, is the means always justified?

[Sheep]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 09:54 PM

On the same note, if you we're the mother, would you put your unborn child in that situation?

Maybe you believe your actions would save an entire nation. Another means to an ends.
Then she's willing to accept that responsibility. It all falls upon the shoulders of circumstances. You'll never have everyone in complete agreement on whether you made the right decision. But if you can live with your decision, I suppose you made the right choice.

[Bradyman]

I think FuckWar has the right idea.

You see, the idea of "ends" is just a flawed image of perfection. There is no such end in the society we live in today. As soon as a supposed "end" is reached, new, further goals are set in front creating a new "end." The result is vast periods of "means" and only visions of what the "end" should be. For example, if a man works just to receive money or food, it can be said the means justify the end. But there is no end, for each week or each month he must continually work hoping to recieve food or money. Therefore he spends his whole life in the period of means, hoping each month to recieve an end.

Just a thought. This is a very oppinionated subject.

[Desert Fox]

The goal does justifies the means,
Since that you have to choose the option that will has the most pos things and lesser neg things. Sure it is sometimes hard to make. But if you really want to do the good you know you can't save them all and you have to make sacrifices. At the end of your life your actions that may have seemed cruel will be linked to the good that you have did and that divines you as human being ...