The leftist stance on vice?

[Revolutionary_Marxist]

I was thinking to myself recently, what is the leftist stand on vice? Well more specifically such activites like smoking pot, drinking, or something more out there prostitution? Should the stay illegal, should the be legalized, or legalized and regulated? My stance is that the proletariat should be allowed to do whatever they please with their money, as long as of course he/she earned it. After all vice is a good way to release stress, aint it?

[Clarksist]

These are the kinds of politics which can not necessarily be answered along purely economic lines (by "left" I assume you mean adhering to the economic philosophy of democratic control of the means of production). From my limited understanding, the drug laws in my country (the United States) were mostly created to criminalize a particular race and were codified under Nixon in order to criminalize the protest movement which used certain drugs disproportionately to the general population. I would not be surprised if in a socialist country if Nazis did a lot of a certain drug, then it would be criminalized because that is the way power functions. It is not fair, but it is true.

Sex work, in my opinion, is a perfectly legitimate way to make a living, but that's a sex positive standpoint. Puritans exist in all groups that are formed purely under economic opinions. That being said, the left is typical socially "liberal" (I know I'm going to be destroyed for using that term) in the sense that they are typically materialist (i.e. not religious) and so not beholden to certain irrational moral traditions.

[socialistjustin]

I personally hold the view that drugs should be decriminalized. Prostitution is a very hot topic in Nevada and I tend to side with the pro legalization people on it. From what I can tell, the anti legalization people are a bunch of religious idiots from up north who hate Vegas. I really don't care much for moral arguments against sin or whatever.

[tir1944]

Vice is not good and should be avoided.

[socialistjustin]

Why should it be avoided? What is it going to hurt if someone feels it necessary to light a blunt after work? I don't understand to be honest.

[tir1944]

Means that communists especially should avoid drinking,drugs and promiscuity to set an example for others.It's been like this since always anyway...

[socialistjustin]

Why? I don't get why communists should be straight edge. There is absolutely nothing wrong with drinking or smoking or whatever unless it starts to ruin your personal life. Letting it all go once in awhile is a great stress reliever.

Also, I'm not sure it has always been that way. Marx would get hammered and throw stones at lamp posts. Yeah, he was certainly being that straight edge example.

[Art Vandelay]

I personally hold the view that drugs should be decriminalized. Prostitution is a very hot topic in Nevada and I tend to side with the pro legalization people on it. From what I can tell, the anti legalization people are a bunch of religious idiots from up north who hate Vegas. I really don't care much for moral arguments against sin or whatever.

Decriminalization is one of the most idiotic concepts I have ever heard. Whatever a grown adult decides to consume, as long as not harming anyone else, is no business but their own. End of discussion.

[Thirsty Crow]

Means that communists especially should avoid drinking,drugs and promiscuity to set an example for others.It's been like this since always anyway...
And why should I wish to set an example for someone?
It's actually quite pathetic that a self-described communists can hold on to such idiotic and ridiculous banalities as "it's been like this since d'oh always". By now, it's become painfully obvious that you are one hardcore social conservative, and some allegations with respect to other threads (I loved that one on cosmopolitanism) now tend to appear in a different light.

What do you think about Marx's advocacy - or rather, prediction - that communism is to abolish the family?

[socialistjustin]

So the act of abolishing all laws relating to drugs is idiotic?

I see where I went wrong there. What I want is legalization. Another semantical error by me tonight. I am on a roll.

[Thirsty Crow]

So the act of abolishing all laws relating to drugs is idiotic?

I see where I went wrong there. What I want is legalization. Another semantical error by me tonight. I am on a roll.
In fact, decriminalization and legalization are not the same thing.
Decrim refers to an offence like possessing light drugs being "demoted" to the status of a minor offence, which does not mean that it is legal to possess the substance. I think that legalization speaks for itself.

[Art Vandelay]

So the act of abolishing all laws relating to drugs is idiotic?

I see where I went wrong there. What I want is legalization. Another semantical error by me tonight. I am on a roll.

I kinda thought you came off as a pro-legalize and not someone who believed in decriminalization from your post and just assumed you were unaware about the difference. Most people are.

To Tir: Legalize it don`t criticize it.

[socialistjustin]

I am aware of the difference I just get confused and shit and use the wrong words. Sorry for the confusion.

[Franz Fanonipants]

i'm pretty sure that a lot of "vice" is uniquely capitalist. sexuality, drug taking, drinking, whatever are all going to be present in any future society. But, if capital is dismantled, they will probably take a different form. i mean clearly most forms of vice under capitalism are unique to the structures of capital.

i.e. pornography, states and non-state drug trade, alcohol and tobacco industries, etc. all replicate capitalist relationships between classes and the means of production

the lumpen aristocracy or whatever you crazies would call it would necessarily have to change form. shit, though, they might be the last existing forms of capitalism at the end of it.

[promethean]

a lot of "vice" is uniquely capitalist. All this actually existed in pre-capitalist society: feudalism and slavery were not particularly known for their puritanism.


But, if capital is dismantled, they will probably take a different form. What other form?


i.e. pornography, states and non-state drug trade, alcohol and tobacco industries, etc. all replicate capitalist relationships between classes and the means of production Not quite. None of these 'vices' have anything unique to capitalism or have anything to do with the relations to the means of production.

[∞]

The law doesn't represent morality as is with bourgeoisie states. One can be a "chaotic good" or a "lawful evil" for a very good reason. Though these terms are very black and white, vice such as sin exemplified by what is illegal because a post-hoc, subjective way of analyzing moral issues. Many social conditions such as religion turn what is vice into anything against subjective moral understandings. The only "immoral" things that can truly exist are those which violate a mutual agreement. In that case the perpetrator has committed an "immoral" act. Such as murder, I choose not to kill someone because it could quite possibly put my life in jeopardy.

Therefore any "crime" without a victim or one that doesn't violate an objective, mutual agreement, is fine. There is nothing wrong with paying for sex as long as it's voluntarily.

[Rooster]

I don't see a problem with people wanting to smoke a joint or have a drink, just so as long it doesn't bother me or interfere with your work when I need you to be sober. I also personally don't care what people do for sex. If they want to sell it or pay for it then that's fine in my books.


It's been like this since always anyway...

No it hasn't. Marx was one for a few pints and had it off with one of his servants and Engels was a proponent of free love.

[Potato]

Means that communists especially should avoid drinking,drugs and promiscuity to set an example for others.It's been like this since always anyway...

fuck you and your moralist high horse bullshit

go party with moses

[Franz Fanonipants]

Not quite. None of these 'vices' have anything unique to capitalism or have anything to do with the relations to the means of production.

lawl ultra-leftism basically is about destroying any kind of context to knowledge and ignoring material conditions

drug use, pornography, and alcoholism all necessarily conform to the economic context they exist in. if you don't understand that, shit, you're purposely missing my point.

[teflon_john]

the more the better, i'd say.

[Luís Henrique]

I was thinking to myself recently, what is the leftist stand on vice? Well more specifically such activites like smoking pot, drinking, or something more out there prostitution? Should the stay illegal, should the be legalized, or legalized and regulated? My stance is that the proletariat should be allowed to do whatever they please with their money, as long as of course he/she earned it. After all vice is a good way to release stress, aint it?

Prostitution is a vice?!

Vice is a good way to release stress?!

Please, what to you mean by "vice"?

Luís Henrique

[Art Vandelay]

Prostitution is a vice?!

Vice is a good way to release stress?!

Please, what to you mean by "vice"?

Luís Henrique

It means different things to different people. Mine would be alcohol or marijuana. When I get really stressed out it helps me relax. It could be anything from tobacco or coffee to food.

[promethean]

lawl ultra-leftism basically is about destroying any kind of context to knowledge and ignoring material conditions

drug use, pornography, and alcoholism all necessarily conform to the economic context they exist in. if you don't understand that, shit, you're purposely missing my point.
No they don't. They conform more to human needs than with the economic base of the society they exist in. Can you explain exactly how drug use or pornography or alcoholism have changed since feudalism? It is not for nothing that prostitution is called the oldest profession. It has been around for a long time. It is also interesting that you describe my views as ultra-leftist. As far as I am aware, most western Stalinists do not have any sort of medieval views on so-called vices, in spite of the fact that "vices" like homosexuality and abortion were outlawed under Stalinism. I can see how a present-day religious conservative could be attracted to this aspect of Stalinism. However, most Stalinists in the west do not seem to be attracted to Stalinism because of this particular aspect. I am beginning to wonder if you are an exception to this.

[Franz Fanonipants]

was pornography an industry in ancient rome?

were drugs grown, distributed, and made profit on in the fashion they are by cartels and states currently in the Valley of Mexico c. 1680?

You're an fucking dimwit.

[Yuppie Grinder]

I believe that my liberty should end only when your's begins. People's freedom should only end when it begins to infringe upon another person's freedom.
Violence and degenerance are products of material conditions. Creating easy access to abortion, giving financial support to education, and improving living conditions are proven ways of decreasing violence. Thousands of years of evidence point to violence and coercion not being good ways to put an end to violence and coercion.

[Princess Luna]

Vice is not good and should be avoided.
Avoid it all you like, but stay out of my damn life. I find dog fighting to be repulsive, but think it should be legal, because they are not harming another human, and it's none of my business.

was pornography an industry in ancient rome?

were drugs grown, distributed, and made profit on in the fashion they are by cartels and states currently in the Valley of Mexico c. 1680?

You're an fucking dimwit.
They didn't have photographs or videos in ancient rome, but pornography in the form of statues, paintings, mosiacs, etc.... did exist, and in fact a abundence of them were found perserved in brothels in Pompeii. And yes, drugs were grown and distributed in mesoamerica, but the major differences between then and now, is back then most drugs where viewed religiously and it was a completely different economic system.

[promethean]

was pornography an industry in ancient rome?

were drugs grown, distributed, and made profit on in the fashion they are by cartels and states currently in the Valley of Mexico c. 1680?

You're an fucking dimwit.
You never had a "point" in your rantings as far as I am aware. You have just come here to shout about 'vices' and their supposed connections to ultraleftism. You have not answered whether you, like Stalinists of the 1930s, consider abortion and homosexuality as vices too.

There were no industries in Ancient Rome, but pornography existed nonetheless. Erotic depictions have been a part of human society since the pre-historical times. Recent discoveries have revealed that post-neanderthal humans worshipped an erotic depiction of a woman as a religious figurine. Hence, religion itself has its roots in eroticism. As far as drugs as concerned, hallucinogens have been in use as well for millenia. Also interesting to note that hallucinogens have been used for religious purposes too, in Shamanism and other related religions.

[Art Vandelay]

Avoid it all you like, but stay out of my damn life. I find dog fighting to be repulsive, but think it should be legal, because they are not harming another human, and it's none of my business.
They didn't have photographs or videos in ancient rome, but pornography in the form of statues, paintings, mosiacs, etc.... did exist, and in fact a abundence of them were found perserved in brothels in Pompeii. And yes, drugs were grown and distributed in mesoamerica, but the major differences between then and now, is back then most drugs where viewed religiously and it was a completely different economic system.

I agreed with everything but this. Forcing defenseless innocent dogs into dog fighting is indeed repulsive. The perpetrators should probably be dealt with the same way that they dealt with the dogs. Torture them and force them to fight to the death.

[Franz Fanonipants]

They didn't have photographs or videos in ancient rome, but pornography in the form of statues, paintings, mosiacs, etc.... did exist, and in fact a abundence of them were found perserved in brothels in Pompeii. And yes, drugs were grown and distributed in mesoamerica, but the major differences between then and now, is back then most drugs where viewed religiously and it was a completely different economic system.

i didn't ask if drugs pornography prostitution etc. existed historically.

i said, the forms they take change. and that ultimately a lot of the vices and crimes that we deal with under capitalism will change form. as you neatly underlined for me.


You have not answered whether you, like Stalinists of the 1930s, consider abortion and homosexuality as vices too.

i'm for stoning you for western decadence so

[Franz Fanonipants]

I agreed with everything but this. Forcing defenseless innocent dogs into dog fighting is indeed repulsive. The perpetrators should probably be dealt with the same way that they dealt with the dogs. Torture them and force them to fight to the death.

the violence of the state is a vice that even anarchists are gonna have problems getting rid of

[#FF0000]

Means that communists especially should avoid drinking,drugs and promiscuity to set an example for others.

lol no


It's been like this since always anyway...No it hasn't

But anyway when it comes to drugs in particular, I think context is sort of important. I'm for full decriminalization because 1) the State shouldn't be able to tell me shit about what I do with my body and 2) because decriminalization makes thing a lot easier for people who do have problems with drugs.

I absolutely understand where folks are coming from with the hard line against drugs, though -- especially when one comes from an area that is absolutely inundated with hard drugs. However, targeting the small time dealers and enforcing prohibition isn't really the best way to stop drugs from destroying working class communities. Full decriminalization would deprive the State with the excuse they feel they need to have a militarized police force, and would (or should) divert funds from Law Enforcement towards programs to help people who feel they have a problem with addiction.

At least, this is how it worked in Portugal, where hard drug use has plummeted ever since they did away with their drug laws.

EDIT: maybe I mean legalization

w/e don't care you get what I mean

[Luís Henrique]

I agreed with everything but this. Forcing defenseless innocent dogs into dog fighting is indeed repulsive. The perpetrators should probably be dealt with the same way that they dealt with the dogs. Torture them and force them to fight to the death.

This nasty belief in petty revenge should never be shared by leftists.

Torturing people? Good grief.

Luís Henrique

[kashkin]

I don't see why socialists, and people in general, should refrain from 'vice'. As long it doesn't affect the way we work, treat people or our capacity to be revolutionaries, I don't see why I shouldn't be able to drink, smoke or have sex with whomever I like (to a certain extent, obviously, consent and age and other factors come in but that is a different issue).

[Raúl Duke]

Torture them and force them to fight to the death.

and put this on TV: Bring back gladiatorial battles!

I think most of you are aware of my position on the "drug issue"

legalization/decreminalization

treat the real problem (drug addiction) rather than criminalize it, which only makes it worse.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Communists seek to create a society which makes Sodom and Gomorrah look like a cloistered convent by comparison. I plan to light a fat blunt on the smoldering ruins of the old social order.

[black magick hustla]

all the mosques and churches will be turned into giant night clubs, and communism will be like a 24/7 mdma high.

we are the sodom and gomhorra of the future

[Art Vandelay]

This nasty belief in petty revenge should never be shared by leftists.

Torturing people? Good grief.

Luís Henrique

I kinda went a little overboard there and no I do not actually support torture. But some of the things that have come out about dog fighting is absolutely disgusting. I love dogs and when I hear about dogs who were defeated being executed by electrocution or family dogs being snatched from backyards it does make me want to get revenge. I do not know what I would do to the person if they did that to my dog.

[Art Vandelay]

the violence of the state is a vice that even anarchists are gonna have problems getting rid of

We probably have different definitions of a state.

[∞]

Kill anyone who don't let you have the freedom to smoke a blunt.

[Revolutionary_Marxist]

Prostitution is a vice?!

Vice is a good way to release stress?!

Please, what to you mean by "vice"?

Luís Henrique

Really I meant prostution and pornography, drugs, and other activites considered immoral in modern society.

And by the way everyone's responses so far have been quite informative into the minds of other leftists on this issue. I agree that these 'vices' should be legal but regulated to some degree like age limit...for example 18 to be legally able to buy alcoholic beverages.

[Thirsty Crow]

drug use, pornography, and alcoholism all necessarily conform to the economic context they exist in. if you don't understand that, shit, you're purposely missing my point.
Of course, but that's not the point: the point is what kind of an attitude should a society adopt towards such practices, and ultimately how could it regulate these.
Under capitalism, drug production is a business like any other, it employs wage labour and produces commodities, though the specificity of this particular production is that it is illegal (and doesn't have the cost of taxes on its back).
Under communism, drugs couldn't be prodced as commodities, but as useful products which fulfill a need. Some of them might not be produced at all if a society reaches a decision to ban such production - effectively to posit that this cannot be understood as a need worthy of being met. Furthermore, it would be more difficult to set up illegal production under communsim since the producers would be wholly dependant on barter as ways of obtaining use values (this presupposes the elimination of money in the form of labour vouchers - which would not circulate).

But the real question is what do we think about the reasons provided for one decision or the other over this issue. And this is not a matter of abstract individual choice, of course - since production in communism is directly social production, and an individual cannot choose to consume something which is not being produced, but then again we come back to the issue of why would producers decide not to produce certain items. This very well might be the case, though I woulnd't advocate any such ban - or in other words, unconditional legalization of light drugs, and possibly of "more serious" stuff.

[No_Leaders]

I can understand some people make have a hardline against some drugs or most. Ultimately it's up to the individual. Every person should have the freedom to choose what they should or shouldn't do to their body. I drink, i smoke pot, it's a good way to relax and relieve stress, and drinking in a social setting always heightens whatever mood i may be feeling at that time. What i've learned in my 25 years of life is moderation is the key word here. I know when i shouldn't drink i.e. if i'm mad, or especially if i'm sad or depressed (though unfortunately i still tend to use alcohol as a way to escape issues if i'm sad knowing damn well it doesn't help.. it's an issue but yeah..) I know some people who are a complete mess with drugs, and some who seem to be more level headed and at their best while under the influence. Perhaps it depends on the person and their mindset? The thing is they have to be able to not let the drugs takeover their lives and essence otherwise they risk becoming another junkie. So again moderation is key, and as long as they can partake if they want to but not let it destroy their lives i think it's completely fine.

[Luís Henrique]

I do not know what I would do to the person if they did that to my dog.

Hopefully, nothing.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Really I meant prostution and pornography, drugs, and other activites considered immoral in modern society.

Ah, you meant "vice" as the opposite of "virtue".

This isn't actually a very interesting discussion. I don't think we can actually foresee what the morality of a communist society will be. In principle, I believe it will be much more relaxed than the morality of class societies, but the specifics are pretty much unknowable; only when society actually gets rid of an infrastructure framed to enhance exploitation a new morality can actually arise. And no pre-planning will be able to affect that: I may dislike, say, alchoholism, and dream with a communist society that reenacts the 18th ammendment, but if the material reality of communism calls for active drinking by the majority of the population, I will have dreamed in vain (and, conversely, I may dream of a society where drinking is all but mandatory, but if material reality makes alchohol superfluous - which, by the way, seems much more likely - then people won't drink or make alchoholic beverages, and again the blueprint is bogus).

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Communists seek to create a society which makes Sodom and Gomorrah look like a cloistered convent by comparison.

No, we don't. We seek to create a society where the property of the means of production is social.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

I drink, i smoke pot, it's a good way to relax and relieve stress

This supposes stress being created first place, isn't it?

Luís Henrique

[No_Leaders]

This supposes stress being created first place, isn't it?

Luís Henrique
Yeah, If you look a the reasons why most of us are stressed it's usually the same. Most has to do with our surroundings, finances, fear of losing job, etc. Basically its a product of living in a capitalist society. I'm sure if i weren't dealing with these stresses everyday i probably wouldn't feel the need to smoke pot to calm my nerves and relax, as i'd relax naturally. I mean sure i enjoy the feeling but it's not something i need or desire to feel 24/7. Samething with alcohol, i'd lessen my drinking a lot and you'd only see me personally drinking in social settings if say some friends wanted to have a couple drinks.

[black magick hustla]

I kinda went a little overboard there and no I do not actually support torture. But some of the things that have come out about dog fighting is absolutely disgusting. I love dogs and when I hear about dogs who were defeated being executed by electrocution or family dogs being snatched from backyards it does make me want to get revenge. I do not know what I would do to the person if they did that to my dog.

its just a dumb dog.

[the last donut of the night]

why do people care so much about animals today? lifes hard enough for humans, just have a fucking steak

[Os Cangaceiros]

No, we don't. We seek to create a society where the property of the means of production is social.

Luís Henrique

oh shit, seriously? For real? You're not pulling my leg, are you?

[TheCuriousJournalist]

In terms of drugs, I support the full legalization and regulation of all drugs right now in the capitalist system. I support legalization because:

1)This can help to ensure that the drugs used are pure and safe. No laced substances.
2)Reduce crime by taking away the monopoly of criminals to supply the large demand for drugs present in society
3)Allow for the government to put drug addicts through rehab, as they are ultimately patients, not criminals
4)The government can tax the sale of said drugs much in the same way that they do with alcohol, gambling etc. This essentially means tax dollars to be used for all which only come from drug users themselves.
5)Etc etc etc, many more reasons

Under socialist rule, my view would not change. I also do not believe that drug use would end with socialist rule. Addiction would certainly decline, but drug use cannot be eradicated.

[Franz Fanonipants]

i basically don't give a fuck about what you crazies do as long as it isn't reactionary

and when it gets there you should be jailed

but really who doesn't smoke fat blunts guys don't be all 7th grade and bragging about it

[IndependentCitizen]

Means that communists especially should avoid drinking,drugs and promiscuity to set an example for others.It's been like this since always anyway...

ARE YOU MAD!?

Alcohol is awesome, especially after a hard day's work of being a revolutionary....

[tir1944]

Alcohol is awesome, especially after a hard day's work of being a revolutionary....
I'm obviosuly not talking about having a beer or two in the evening,i'm talking about getting drunk a lot.

[Art Vandelay]

I'm obviosuly not talking about having a beer or two in the evening,i'm talking about getting drunk a lot.

Either way it does not matter, it is not up to you to determine what I, as a consenting adult, choose to ingest into my body.

[tir1944]

Either way it does not matter, it is not up to you to determine what I, as a consenting adult, choose to ingest into my body.
Correct,it's not up to me.It's up to relevant authorities....

[Potato]

Correct,it's not up to me.It's up to relevant authorities....

i eat relevant authorities

[IndependentCitizen]

Correct,it's not up to me.It's up to relevant authorities....

Elaborate further...please?

[tir1944]

Elaborate further...please?
Your party's ethical committee or "cadre service" or whatever.

[IndependentCitizen]

Political parties have ethical committees!?

[tir1944]

Political parties have ethical committees!? IIRC the Soviet Comparty had something similar (although i don't think it was called an "ethical committee" of course) and they'd expell you if you drank or fucked around too much.Of course i may be wrong...


i eat relevant authorities
Bon apetit.

[Luís Henrique]

all the mosques and churches will be turned into giant night clubs, and communism will be like a 24/7 mdma high.

Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "dictatorship of the party".

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Political parties have ethical committees!?

Mine has.

It doesn't deal with members' sexuality or "vices" though; rather with cases of corruption or indiscipline.

Luís Henrique

[Rebid]

I understand your question, but because I'm not a christian I don't understand why you call smoking pot or getting laid with hookers vice. I have nothing against people using drugs if they harm no others and if they can 'make their own living', ie. if they participate in producing the welfare they enjoy. About prostitution, if you're free to do what ever you want to, and prostitution is what you want to do, you'd have other options but still you want to do it, then I guess it's ok. I would think it would be alienating and degrading for me, but some people might not have so conservative ideas about sex (how to do it, for which reason, with whom, etc).

What comes to a communist (or some other, better than capitalist) society, why should there be stress? Isn't stress to a high degree consequence of alienation of work? As there should not be alienation of work in communist society, there should be considerably less stress than in present capitalist society. Of course life has its own stresses too, but what most people get stressed about all the time, at least 5 days a week, is work.

[balls deep in revolution]

smoking pot and drinking are fun. they're both fine to do.

I'm not in a position to judge people for visiting prostitutes. prostitutes are there and aren't going to go away within a capitalist society regardless of whether you pay them to have sex with you. they'd probably actually appreciate to have a customer that doesn't act abusive towards them and just has normal sex with them and uses protection, pays them an alright amount, and leaves considering the amount of serious abuse that they take doing what they do. so if you're going to do that then sure, whatever.