Greed

[Misodoctakleidist]

I was haiving a converstaion with someone who claimed that communism would collapse because people are naturaly greedy, i reponded that greed was not an intinct but a social creation and that communism would eradicate greed, anyway this was my argument;

The natural instinct of humans is to reproduce and therefore to have sex as much as possible this leads to an instinct for self-preservation, or survival, which in turn leads to an instinct to form societies because they are advatageous in survival. All of these instincts are caused by the initial instinct to reproduce, are the inevitable out come of it and wouldn't exist without it. People only become greedy when it is advantageous to their survival and so most societies invariably lead to the creation of greed but this link is unlike the others as the tendancy to greed is caused by the scenario encountered in society in which the individual lives and not soley by the instinct to live in a society. Since greed is not the inevitable outcome of human instinct but the invariable outcome of social situations it is a purely social creation and therefore could be eradicated in a society in which greed is not advantageous to survival and all of the participants are aware of this. Of course my conclusion is that communism wouldn't collapse due to greed as greed would not exist in a communist society.

does anyone else have a different perspective on this? does anyone think greed can exist without society?

[UnionofSovietSocialistRepublics]

it is created by the environment u live in, it is sen as the main achievment, the thing everyone strives for.

[The Feral Underclass]

I do not agree that socities are created due to the need to procreate. Families where created as a unit for two people who procreated which developed over time, both in organization of and influence off within society.

According to Marx, and I agree, societies developed based on economic needs. The theory was called 'Historical Materialism' which I started a thread on and contains links to other information on the subject.

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...cal+materialism (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=18410&hl=historical+materialism)

Greed is more dangerous than you suggest. it is intrinsic in society. Reality has become a quest for DVD's and fast cars. It is the norm nowadays to want to be rich. In fact people who are rich and famous are admired as being succesful human beings.

The answer is to educate. Communist society can not exist without conscious workers and once they have the consciousness greed will be a thing of the past.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Whatever the reason for greed, it's no excuse for the oppression of billions.

[crazy comie]

Culture is the reasson for greed.

[Misodoctakleidist]

According to Marx, and I agree, societies developed based on economic needs.

i agree, my point was that by being part of a society is a way to satisfy "economic needs" which arise from the desire to survive.#


Greed is more dangerous than you suggest. it is intrinsic in society. Reality has become a quest for DVD's and fast cars. It is the norm nowadays to want to be rich. In fact people who are rich and famous are admired as being succesful human beings.


i didn't think i suggested otherwise infact i agree


The answer is to educate. Communist society can not exist without conscious workers and once they have the consciousness greed will be a thing of the past.

i dont think educating the workers will get rid of greed but the structure of a communist society will, in a communist society it would not be possible to accumale vast amounts of wealth and so the tendancy to be greedy would not make survival any more likely and so greed would cease to exist.

[Misodoctakleidist]

Originally posted by crazy [email protected] 13 2003, 04:15 PM
Culture is the reasson for greed.
caulture certainly plays a part but culture is determined by the economic structure of society.

[Bradyman]

"capitalism was not created by the 'natural greed,' but made greed seem natural"

Do you think that the people in the native american tribes were so greedy? Surely they didn't slay millions of buffaloe to become wealthier and aquire more possessions. They had no use for greed, and thus they had no greed. It is true that they often quabbled with other tribes and such. But that was because one tribe had better conditions then the other, thus their was greed in that respect. But inside the tribes, it was a different story.

[Iepilei]

You don't even have to look to the Native Americans to realise that greed is a cultural and social disease.

In the days of feudalism, people were born into their classes and had no expectation of class mobility. If you were born a peasant, you'd die a peasant. Same goes with the aristocracy. This "American" notion of the ever great "free market" which "everyone" could be wealthy really didn't begin to materialise until the times following the expansion past the Appalacian Mts and the Lousiana Purchase. This new abundance of land gave hopes to prospectors. People could buy up many acres very cheaply, and they did. It was a grab and go type existance. The takeover of Mexican territory further drove the poor, lower-classed americans out west in search of new life.

This notion of manifest destiny has bleed over into the culture of american economy. With the biggest pushers for globalisation here in the states, it's obvious to see their expansionism has yet to subside peacefully within it's declared borders.

A excerpt from Alexis de Tocqueville:

"IN the United States a man builds a house in which to spend his old age, and he sells it before the roof is on; he plants a garden and lets it just as the trees are coming into bearing; he brings a field into tillage and leaves other men to gather the crops; he embraces a profession and gives it up; he settles in a place, which he soon afterwards leaves to carry his changeable longings elsewhere."

But now, in our age of corporatism, why does the average American hold dear to the notion of such expansionist capitalism? Nostaligic for the days of mom and pop shops, corner drug stores, locally owned resturants which were ever-so present in the 1940s-50s, lower-class americans believe that they will too, one day be able to own an empire of resturants. It's the same reason that poor whites in the south wanted to keep the institution of slavery alive, even though they did not own any at all.

It may not happen... It probably won't happen... but it COULD!

Just like winning the lotto.

[crazy comie]

Originally posted by Misodoctakleidist+Nov 13 2003, 04:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Misodoctakleidist @ Nov 13 2003, 04:40 PM)
crazy [email protected] 13 2003, 04:15 PM
Culture is the reasson for greed.
caulture certainly plays a part but culture is determined by the economic structure of society. [/b]
I never said it wasn;t

[RedAnarchist]

Is it nature or is it Nurture?

I think that greed can only exist if there is something to desire, and that that object is easy to gain.

[Don't Change Your Name]

I think the environment infludes.

We live in a world where there arent resources for everybody. The "human nature" has always promoted that the strongest should survive and they should get everything. This tradition of greed and competition is accepted by society and imposed on their children, so that they follow the same principles that the previous generations. However, this has to be stopped. What makes an individual "stronger" or more "competent" than another? As there&#39;s no indicator of that and there&#39;s not an accurate way of knowing, we know that we have a huge problem here: resources arent enough to make everyone survive.

That&#39;s were we appear and try to change the world by producing what we need and stopping the exploitation by the pseudo-"more capable" class.

[crazy comie]

There are inof resources for evryone to survive.

[ukcommie]

Communism in its purest theological form lives in a world were greed cannot exist, unfortunatly the world is not like this. People have greed inbuilt in them from the youngest age, the world is based around social mobility, moving up a class or ranking higher within your class every generation up. In this world communism cannot exist because of the fact it is built on the base that everyone works for a common aim with no profit or rank system. However people need to be told what to do or no-one would do anything and the system would crumble. The bad thing about this is that people in postions of power believe that they are "higher" in some respects than the people they control, therefore believing they are better than the people doing the hard work the "greed" kicks in and they want higher pay. Plus the fact people are jealous and want what other people have so themselves want more power and money. This is the main reason that in the world today communism is not seen as a viable political ideology, if it wasn&#39;t for the fact people are greedy i believe that the world would be communist with no opposing parties because it is the idea of a perfect society.

[Misodoctakleidist]

unfortunatly the world is not like this. People have greed inbuilt in them from the youngest age, the world is based around social mobility, moving up a class or ranking higher within your class every generation up. In this world communism cannot exist because of the fact it is built on the base that everyone works for a common aim with no profit or rank system.

but this greed that you say is built into people is done so in a capitalist society, in a communist society it wouldn&#39;t be "built into people" so that&#39;s irelivent but congratulations on succesfully reasoning that communism couldn&#39;t exist within capitalism.

[Hawker]

I think that if there was absolutely no such thing as currency and everything is for free but there&#39;s a limit to what people can get.I think that nobody would be greedy anymore they&#39;ll just be lazy and the economy would collapse.I mean com&#39;on greed and coveting is what keeps the economy going if your neighbor has a new grill better then yours then your tempted to put buy a new one better then your neighbors and the money you used is circulated throughout the country,so to summarize what I just said,greed is sometimes a good thing and sometimes a bad thing,either way it&#39;s 50/50.

[Invader Zim]

People will always want to better them selves, if everyone knows that if socioty is more productive then they will get more because of the increased production then they will work that bit harder to make socioty a success. So in effect Greed will make socioty more efficent.

[crazy comie]

if evry one was garunted to get what they need they would be far less greedy

[iloveatomickitten]

Though most communists would defend the statement that greed is a social creation I on the other hand don’t. To assume that it is, is folly and in my opinion the reason why no successful communist states have arisen over the past centuries. Whether this greed is expressed though a reach for power or excessive wealth in comparison to their fellow citizens the greed which you may argue is a relic of the past capitalist society has caused the downfall or corruption of all communisms to date (though there may be exceptions of which I am ignorant).
Looking at the feudal system it clear the certain individuals at some point or other gained their wealth and power – giving rise to the system it self. And then looking back to the societies which predated feudalism which due to their simplicity and circumstances could hardly have promoted greed on such a large scale unless that greed was a natural need and hence instinct.
Also another area that has to be looked at is war something that unfortunately that has remained constant throughout the history of “civilization.” Not a social creation it has existed in both the most simple and basic cultures and the most complex. No other motive could be the reason for war other than greed (assuming that war to protect something say freedom is the cause of the greed of the aggressor).

[The Feral Underclass]

Misodoctakleidist


i dont think educating the workers will get rid of greed but the structure of a communist society will

Why? The working class are not an entity unto themselves. Incapable of understaning what I and you understand. We are know better, we do not have bigger brains.

If you agree that greed is a consequence of the historical development of humanity then it can not be an instinct but merely an idea. Ideas can change all you have to do is decide not to be greedy.



in a communist society it would not be possible to accumale vast amounts of wealth so the tendancy to be greedy would not make survival any more likely and so greed would cease to exist

It depends on what you mean by communist. Are you talking marxism-leninism or are you meaning something different?

In a pure communist or anarchism society, yes the ability to accumlate wealth.


the tendancy to be greedy would not make survival any more likely and so greed would cease to exist

Not having the ability to accumulate wealth is not how you stop greed. Just because you can not accumulate wealth does not stop you from wanting too. Understanding what greed is and making a conscious decision not to be is how you stop greed. If there are three pieces of cake and I take them all without thinking of someone else I am being greedy. But I make the conscious decision not to, because it negativly effects the people I live with. Once people realize what greed is and how it effects humanity, they will stop doing it.

[iloveatomickitten]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 24 2003, 02:18 PM


i dont think educating the workers will get rid of greed but the structure of a communist society will

Why? The working class are not an entity unto themselves. Incapable of understaning what I and you understand. We are know better, we do not have bigger brains.


Though I don&#39;t believe that education is the key to eradication of greed, just because all classes are equally capable of understanding issues doesnt mean to say that education isn&#39;t needed. Without education you your self would be unable to post on this site education is the single most important aspect of society/civilization and is what the working class is most in need of.

[S.B.]

Comrades


What is the cause of greed? ... a good question to ask,a difficult question to answer.

Some propose a selfish gene,some claim that it stems from childhood or even infancy,that a babe either stayed too long or too little at the breast.

Then of course there is the suggestion of birth-order and the struggle for dominance over siblings for the attention of ones parents.

The case can be equally made for one having suffered for want in earlier life or else due to being spoiled as a child.

It would seem likely that greed and laziness go hand in hand,strangely, those who do the least expect the most,likewise,those who have the most expect all the more while those with very little are generally more content in their day to day lives.

Nevertheless,this question of greed is a step in the right direction,for a problem only exists as long as the underlying truth is undiscovered,once the truth has been exposed the problem disappears.

This is a great aspect of being able to visit this site,in that it serves as a means to collectively come together and investigate such matters which,if the collective wisdom is retained and applied by the members,no doubt society stands to benefit from such endeavers.

A different approach to such matters is to ask the polar opposite,why the sense of selflessness and sharing?This leads some to suggest a difference in moral character,however,morality is based upon social norms by which a community strives to ensure peace and equality,or rather,this should be the case for morality,though in the religious sense it tends to serve merely a collective minority.

Having more food than appetite or more appetite than food are both indicative of an unjust society.It is for this cause that I neither work nor pay taxes in that I d rather starve one than to pay a few to starve many.

Within sociiety the blame ultimately rests on the shoulders of a corrupt government which allows greed to thrive.The problem facing the poor is poverty,the problem facing the rich is the threat that the poor will at last awake and demand restitution.

Those who see no cause to complain concerning the present society are themselves the reason others complain.As for democracy,I prefer to call myself a socialist due to democracy having become tainted by politicians,and its a sad statement that one must proclaim himself a revolutionary in order to be a decent man.

It is the way of modern politics to have the wise governed by fools,for the wise shun politics due to corporate dishonesty thus leaving offices open for thieves,and the very act of voting tends to merely spawn more crooks.

The urge to rule doesnt imply the urge to benefit society,rather it is the earmark of those most detrimental to society.As for the idea of majority rule ... Nazi Germany stands as evidence against such a notion.

As for all these little personal cliches I have concocted and am flinging about in this post,well you might can say that Im feeling piffy at the moment.

I will now offer two more as I close this post,one by Thomas Jefferson and one of my own ...

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Government either encourages equality in politics or else encourages men to take up arms" - KSB.

Though my site ID is S.B. my full initials are K.S.B. and thus I will respectfully tag my posts as such.,no doubt its quite peculiar for me to behave in such a way and to be so oddly meticulous,however,its my manner.


K.S.B.

[crazy comie]

Greed is as i said earlyer mainly formed from nerture and could be over ridden culturraly as has been proved by many relegeoes groups/monks by sharing equally.

[The Feral Underclass]

iloveatomickitten


Though most communists would defend the statement that greed is a social creation I on the other hand don’t. To assume that it is, is folly and in my opinion the reason why no successful communist states have arisen over the past centuries.

Typical bouregois rationalization. If people are so intrinsicly selfish why do we have charities? Why do we have ambulance drivers and fire people? Why do we have doctors? if the reason the Russian revolution failed was simply because human beings are so incapable of wanting selflessness why did thousands of workers risk their lives to free themselves and their country people of oppression? Because it was a new window of greedy opportunity?

The reason russia and china and the others failed was because the theory was incorrect, not because humans are greedy. if stalin was greedy why did he live in such a modst enviroment? He didn&#39;t have money or fast cars.

This kind of rationale is pathetic. It is lazy criticism and what point does it achieve. You ignore even the historical event itself and claim without any hint of proof that these events simply failed because every human being has this unexplained "thing" inside them which drives them towards money and power. If that was the case how could society function?


Also another area that has to be looked at is war something that unfortunately that has remained constant throughout the history of “civilization.” Not a social creation it has existed in both the most simple and basic cultures and the most complex. No other motive could be the reason for war other than greed

Wars are not perpetrated by working class people they are perpetrated by mebers of the ruling class. Agreeably all wars have been about welath and power but wealth and power desired by a small group of people. The workers have been used to attain it. What about the millions of people who opposed the war in iraq or the war in vietnam. How do you explain that?

You are generalizing every human being based on an elite of human beings. The people that control our lives and our world. They are not me and you and the woman in the factory, they are bloodsuckers and parasites, feeding from our sweat. Don&#39;t place us in the same box.


(assuming that war to protect something say freedom is the cause of the greed of the aggressor).

When has there ever been a war for freedom?


Though I don&#39;t believe that education is the key to eradication of greed...

By your idea of greed it can never be "eradicated".


Without education you your self would be unable to post on this site education is the single most important aspect of society/civilization and is what the working class is most in need of.

I am not talking about schooling, I am talking about consciousness. Being aware of capitalism. Once they are aware of their material condition with the world, and indeed what the world is, they will realise what greed is and work to destroy it, along with the state and class.

[Misodoctakleidist]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 24 2003, 02:18 PM

i dont think educating the workers will get rid of greed but the structure of a communist society will

Why? The working class are not an entity unto themselves. Incapable of understaning what I and you understand. We are know better, we do not have bigger brains.

It wouldn&#39;t be possible to educate people on a mass scale about greed when all the while they&#39;re being told to be greedy through the media and their families and at school and by the very nature of the social structure of capitalist society, it may get through to a few people but for most the socialising influences of society would be too strong, this doesn&#39;t make them stupid. Educating people about greed would have to come after a revolution or during some kind of transition to a communist society.

[The Feral Underclass]

It wouldn&#39;t be possible to educate people on a mass scale about greed when all the while they&#39;re being told to be greedy through the media and their families and at school and by the very nature of the social structure of capitalist society, it may get through to a few people but for most the socialising influences of society would be too strong, this doesn&#39;t make them stupid. Educating people about greed would have to come after a revolution or during some kind of transition to a communist society.

The notion of greed I think is based on a need to survive. If you go and speak to people in working class communities and ask them what they miss or what they want the most, other than the obvious, alot will say "community spirit". People long to have a sense of community. people dont belong anymore, the diversion has become too big. In many working class areas it is so delperdated that it is difficult to want to be proud of your community.

You are right, capitalism forces people to accept a false consciousness and it leaves them with a sense of disempowerment. Working class people do not have time to think, they have to work in order to survive.

What is it that creates degraded communities and brakes up the sense of beloning. Capitalism. In order to acknowledge what greed is you must first have an understanding of what capitalism is. So how do you gain this consciousness? By making people question capitalism&#33; How do you do this in the present system?

You go into commuities. You create a workers solidarity movement. A group of men and women across the country if not the world, who dedicate their lives to fighting for real working class issues. Go into these communities talk to people, hold meetings to discuss how you are going to improve the area. Maybe you could set up after school clubs for teenagers, or build a park. In sheffield where I am from, the council wanted to privatize the housing benefit office. Fight with them here. Help them organize, but do not lead them. Get inside communities, speak to real people about real issues, not just abstract ones such as the anti-war movement or globalise resistance, but every day problems that indeviduals face with their lives. Fight by example.

You are building a profile. You are with working class people every day. You can challenge peoples opinions about why these things happen. Believe me the workers are angry. They just dont have a perspective. Put it into perspective. Argue with them. Explain to them why there is no park, why there are burnt out cars and smashed windows. Explain why the council is privatizing the council office. Keep arguing and keep explaining.

it is a long process and one that could take decades, but you are achieving class consciousness every time you speak to someone, every time you help them you are contributing to emancipating the working class. And that is how you win and maintain an egalitarian society. Through mass consciousness where the workers lead and organize themselves.

It is unfortunate if you want to see communism or what ever in your life time. It may not be possible. Sorry. But what is important is to lay down the foundations to achieving it in the future.

Malatesta perfectly summed up what I am trying to say:

"Not whether we accomplish anarchism today, tomorrow, or within ten centuries, but that we walk towards anarchism today, tomorrow, and always."

[Misodoctakleidist]

Though most communists would defend the statement that greed is a social creation I on the other hand don’t. To assume that it is, is folly

What do you base this statement on?


Looking at the feudal system it clear the certain individuals at some point or other gained their wealth and power – giving rise to the system it self

The system was a result of the progression of society from the ancient system in which there where slaves and masters, the feudal system arose when the masters feared a slave rebeillion and ceded a little of their power, they became the nobles and the slaves where elevated to the position of serfs. The creation of this society was in no way down to any kind of natural greed, the slaves wanted freedom and justice, the masters may have been greedy in wanting to maintain their social staus but this is a greed which was taught to them in the ancient system, it was the belief in their natural superiority to the slaves who were alive only to serve them, a belife instilled in them by society not an instincive or natural belief. I will be more specific and point out the establishment of the aristocracy in England, they were french families put in place by Guillem/William the conquerer with the responsibility of controling the peasants and extorting taxes from them, there is nothing to suggest that this greed was natural as these families had grown up in the french feudal society where it had been installed in them so your statement that feudal society was created by a natural greed, whilst it may be right that the greed was natural, doesn&#39;t prove that greed exists naturaly as it could just as easily have been, and probably was, socialy created greed. Since you bring up the subject of feudal society it is worth pointing out that the surfs in feudal society would appear not to have been greedy, as Freidrich Engles points out they lived in "unquestioning humility, excedingly well disposed toward the &#39;superior&#39; classes" and "They were comfortable in their silent vegetation, and but for the industrial revolution would never have emerged from this existence" they knew no more than what they had and were satisfied with it, they saw no oppertunity to have more and likewise no advantage to greed and so were happy with what they had.


And then looking back to the societies which predated feudalism which due to their simplicity and circumstances could hardly have promoted greed on such a large scale unless that greed was a natural need and hence instinct

To suggest that primitive communist and asiatic societies were too simplistic to &#39;promote&#39; greed shows incredible ignorance but i wont dwell on that point. Just because a small number of people in these societies were greedy doesn&#39;t prove that greed is instinct, it is possible for one cat to like playing with a ball but this doesn&#39;t mean that such behavior is instinct ot the whole species and likewise it is possible for one human to be greedy without greed being instinct and when discussing early society even this is besides the point. In a primitive communistic society there is oppertunity for the greedy to benifit and thus improve their chances of survival and so in this case greed can not be put down solely to an instinct to greed but should be attributed to the desire to survive.

[iloveatomickitten]

Wars are not perpetrated by working class people they are perpetrated by mebers of the ruling class.


This is true but dose the working class have the power to take such action; clearly no, but certainly they would take such action given the window to do so. This is an argument for anarchism which in due to its core structure denies any individual the power to promote such action.

And to the statement that my post was typical and pathetic is it not narrow-minded to believe that your criticism of my view isn&#39;t simply a typical marxist perspective and shows no level of though past what you may have read or been told.

Also anyone of the jobs that show us that people are at heart good, could also just point to the fact that these sevices pay money to those who conduct them (in the case of doctors quite a large amount) and part which drives them to help others could alike charity be explained away by guilt. The overthrow of oppression doesnt have to be for the common good perhaps it exists for the good of the individual who achieves the common good as a cosequence of their personal desire.

[iloveatomickitten]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 07:15 PM


To suggest that primitive communist and asiatic societies were too simplistic to &#39;promote&#39; greed shows incredible ignorance
Im sorry for this display of my "incredible ignorance," but after you spent hours arguing to me the point I made, I though that this would have been an acceptable assumption.

[Misodoctakleidist]

Wars are not perpetrated by working class people they are perpetrated by mebers of the ruling class.


This is true but dose the working class have the power to take such action; clearly no, but certainly they would take such action given the window to do so.

what makes you so sure of that? the working class have nothing to gain from wars so why would they got o war to help the ruling class?


And to the statement that my post was typical and pathetic is it not narrow-minded to believe that your criticism of my view isn&#39;t simply a typical marxist perspective and shows no level of though past what you may have read or been told.

Just because you agree with someone that doesn&#39;t mean you cant think for your self, if thats what you believe then how do you explain the marxist interpretations of the media or the sate education system, these things never existed in marx&#39;s day.


Also anyone of the jobs that show us that people are at heart good, could also just point to the fact that these sevices pay money to those who conduct them (in the case of doctors quite a large amount) and part which drives them to help others could alike charity be explained away by guilt.

what about the doctors who work in the community for little material reward? and although i agree that charity is often used to excuse the upper class by pretending they want to help people it is a well documented fact that poor people contribute more to charity than rich people and what about the charity worker themselves? what about the doctors who go to the third world on a voluntary basis to imunise children from deadly deseases?

[iloveatomickitten]

OK - to have the power to start a war you can no longer be working class and Imeant in no way that some factory worker would suddenly rise yup and start a war. I only wanted to make that point that all people are capable of war.

Marxism has evloved past simply what marx saw else it wouldnt exist so you cant say a topic isnt a marxist issue because it has to be. Though I agree that I am wrong in that second point you raise so is person who I aimed it at as they called my view pathetic for no other reason that he doesnt agree with it, making my view out tobe "retarded."

And I also agree with the third point you make but there is a flaw - this is only in the minority and communism is concerned with the masses.

[crazy comie]

i was thinking a whille ago that to eraddicate greed the state would have to use propagahanda and education.

[Nyder]

Originally posted by crazy [email protected] 25 2003, 04:36 PM
i was thinking a whille ago that to eraddicate greed the state would have to use propagahanda and education.
Um, isn&#39;t that brainwashing?

[Nyder]

Actually if you think about it a central authority allows for the worst kind of greed. Anyone who has the monopoly on using force can do almost anything they desire and hence can exploit their greedy natures to the utmost. This can be seen in many communist countries - Castro hardly lives like a peasant, Stalin, Hussein, Kim Jong Il all lived in palaces built from resources taken forcibly off their citizens. Governments everywhere love to give themselves pay rises but always have a justification for adding some new fine or tax upon the population.

[Misodoctakleidist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 03:11 AM
Actually if you think about it a central authority allows for the worst kind of greed. Anyone who has the monopoly on using force can do almost anything they desire and hence can exploit their greedy natures to the utmost. This can be seen in many communist countries - Castro hardly lives like a peasant, Stalin, Hussein, Kim Jong Il all lived in palaces built from resources taken forcibly off their citizens. Governments everywhere love to give themselves pay rises but always have a justification for adding some new fine or tax upon the population.
The governments of Stalin ect. aren&#39;t the only form of communism, Stalinism is an extremely authoritarian form of communism and i think that most communists would agree that true communism has never existed and so using these examples doesn&#39;t really prove anything, infact Stalin himself said the the USSR had a long way to go before it could become truely communist. When i said that communism would eridicate this may have been misleading as i was refering to my ideal of communism, i&#39;m not a Stalinist, i was thinking of the type of communism which the ideal for many communists, a society which is a true democracy, not the type of "democracy" that exists in western capitalism, in which the government draw all their power from the people and can&#39;t make descisions without the approval of the people (what form this system might take is not the issue) and so would be no better off than any other profession. As for your previous post; any expresion of an opinion is properganda, although if it&#39;s your opinion you never think of it like that, so there&#39;s nothing wrong with it aslong as there&#39;s a wide range of opinions and they aren&#39;t suppressed, so people could make an informed choice.

[Nyder]

Originally posted by Misodoctakleidist+Nov 29 2003, 12:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Misodoctakleidist @ Nov 29 2003, 12:42 PM)
[email protected] 29 2003, 03:11 AM
Actually if you think about it a central authority allows for the worst kind of greed. Anyone who has the monopoly on using force can do almost anything they desire and hence can exploit their greedy natures to the utmost. This can be seen in many communist countries - Castro hardly lives like a peasant, Stalin, Hussein, Kim Jong Il all lived in palaces built from resources taken forcibly off their citizens. Governments everywhere love to give themselves pay rises but always have a justification for adding some new fine or tax upon the population.
The governments of Stalin ect. aren&#39;t the only form of communism, Stalinism is an extremely authoritarian form of communism and i think that most communists would agree that true communism has never existed and so using these examples doesn&#39;t really prove anything, infact Stalin himself said the the USSR had a long way to go before it could become truely communist. When i said that communism would eridicate this may have been misleading as i was refering to my ideal of communism, i&#39;m not a Stalinist, i was thinking of the type of communism which the ideal for many communists, a society which is a true democracy, not the type of "democracy" that exists in western capitalism, in which the government draw all their power from the people and can&#39;t make descisions without the approval of the people (what form this system might take is not the issue) and so would be no better off than any other profession. As for your previous post; any expresion of an opinion is properganda, although if it&#39;s your opinion you never think of it like that, so there&#39;s nothing wrong with it aslong as there&#39;s a wide range of opinions and they aren&#39;t suppressed, so people could make an informed choice. [/b]
Misodoctakleidist,

First off, democracy has a very bad flaw. It is basically the opposite of fascism - instead of the rule of a minority you get the rule of the majority. The only problem is that 51% of the population can undermine and subjugate the other 49%. However, this is only a &#39;true&#39; democracy where every decision would be voted on.

Secondly - democracy is not a product of capitalism. Democracy as a political system rests within the domain of government. And since no government actually practices &#39;pure&#39; democracy we get a very muted and twisted version of democracy that probably doesn&#39;t amount to democracy at all.

Thirdly, in stating that the following quote;

QUOTE (crazy comie @ Nov 25 2003, 04:36 PM)
i was thinking a whille ago that to eraddicate greed the state would have to use propagahanda and education.

implies brainwashing, it is different then merely expressing an opinion. It is a state monopoly forcibly programming this line of thinking through state sponsored propaganda and the school curriculum. Hitler was fond of doing this, as was Saddam Hussein (ie. school books would tell how great he was). And as Crazy Comie puts it - the main aim is to forcibly program human beings into a certain way of thinking that would complement the communist regime in operation. If you don&#39;t think this is brainwashing then I feel sorry for you...

[Misodoctakleidist]

First off, democracy has a very bad flaw. It is basically the opposite of fascism - instead of the rule of a minority you get the rule of the majority. The only problem is that 51% of the population can undermine and subjugate the other 49%. However, this is only a &#39;true&#39; democracy where every decision would be voted on.

Although this is factualy correct its not particularly relivent, even if this occurs its better than 49% subjugating 51% and what alternative would you suggest? an incredibly small minority deciding what&#39;s best? that would raise the very problems you mentioned in your origional post. In a practical situation true democracy would result in the an equal and fair society (when used in communism) because if there is equality then there can&#39;t be political policies which benifit the majority of the population which aren&#39;t the best policies for society. Also i think you should look up the definition of fascism, what you describe is autocracy.


Secondly - democracy is not a product of capitalism. Democracy as a political system rests within the domain of government. And since no government actually practices &#39;pure&#39; democracy we get a very muted and twisted version of democracy that probably doesn&#39;t amount to democracy at all.

I never claimed that democracy was a result of capitalism nor that western governments practice true democray hence my use of inverted commas and the "democracy" refered to by capitalists very often is a direct result of capitalism.


Thirdly, in stating that the following quote;

QUOTE (crazy comie @ Nov 25 2003, 04:36 PM)
i was thinking a whille ago that to eraddicate greed the state would have to use propagahanda and education.

implies brainwashing, it is different then merely expressing an opinion. It is a state monopoly forcibly programming this line of thinking through state sponsored propaganda and the school curriculum. Hitler was fond of doing this, as was Saddam Hussein (ie. school books would tell how great he was). And as Crazy Comie puts it - the main aim is to forcibly program human beings into a certain way of thinking that would complement the communist regime in operation. If you don&#39;t think this is brainwashing then I feel sorry for you...

Dont you think the state use properganda now? wouldn&#39;t you call their anti-drugs campaign preperganda? how about their anti-smoking campaign, their false claims about WMD&#39;s, their decription of immigrations as a "problem" ect. Simply by making policies, the role of the government, which requires holding an opinion means that expessing that opinion is properganda. Every opinion is properganda whats inportant isn&#39;t to make every opinion objective but to prevent the repression of non-government properganda.

[Misodoctakleidist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 01:42 PM
Hitler was fond of doing this, as was Saddam Hussein
oooooh hitler was a bad man, if i tenuously compare him to hitler then surely he wont argue with me.

You&#39;re an arrogant moron, before you post such ignorant and patronising comments why dont you learn something about politics, perhaps you could ask a 5 year old. Then maybe you could post something of substance instead of reproducing the kind of unsubstaniated media propaganda that you&#39;ve clearly been brainwashed with.

[crazy comie]

Originally posted by Misodoctakleidist+Nov 29 2003, 05:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Misodoctakleidist @ Nov 29 2003, 05:32 PM)
[email protected] 29 2003, 01:42 PM
Hitler was fond of doing this, as was Saddam Hussein
oooooh hitler was a bad man, if i tenuously compare him to hitler then surely he wont argue with me.

You&#39;re an arrogant moron, before you post such ignorant and patronising comments why dont you learn something about politics, perhaps you could ask a 5 year old. Then maybe you could post something of substance instead of reproducing the kind of unsubstaniated media propaganda that you&#39;ve clearly been brainwashed with. [/b]
True
When did i say this i don&#39;t remember saying it "as i the main aim is to forcibly program human beings into a certain way of thinking that would complement the communist regime in operation"

[Misodoctakleidist]

It seems that nyder just made it up, he makes up alot of things.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Society definately created greed and i beleive in the right conditions it could be eradicated

[crazy comie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 06:45 PM
Society definately created greed and i beleive in the right conditions it could be eradicated
I compleatly agree.