Anti Carpe-Diem Movement

[Pustelnik]

Hello friends,

Well I must say we are bunch of parasites enjoying the butter and honey of good old earth living under the philosophy "carpe diem" where the others suffer. Actually carpe diem philosophy does not care about anything. I mean a carpe diemist drinks his coca cola, enjoys his internet surfing, watches his movies but does not care how they are produced or from where they come from.

As a group of people and me realised most of the people who really enjoy something are these so called carpe diem people. They just live for the day, does not care much about anything else, just squeeze the day in order to get most possible joy.

So basically is the goal of humans about enjoying, is it about joy ? What are we living for at all ?

A carpe diemist actually would never ask such questions when asked he would probably respond to such a question in a cynical manner even trying to squeeze joy from such a philosophy. A carpe diemist is almost always happy, does care about people but he does it in such a fashion that he never wants to change the system which causes people's problems. Even problem means in a carpe diemists dictionary a temporary state which can be corrected with flowers, a smile or sentitive touch.

Anti carpe diemist movement is to convert your friends from this state of hedonism to state of seriousness and hermitage.

With all respect to my leftist fellows,

As a note if your aim is to feel joy in any moment of your life this contradicts with youtr leftist goals. Because a carpe-diemist can never be leftist. A carpe diemist is actually the most egoist creature practically even if he would not realise that.

Thank you

[Mutualizm]

As a note if your aim is to feel joy in any moment of your life this contradicts with youtr leftist goals.
Joy is necessary for emotional health. Emotional health enables one to more effectively work, be that in production or in revolution. Leisure time is necessary to be a more effective revolutionary.

The statement you made is equivalent to saying "As a note if your aim is to sleep in any moment of your life this takes up time you could be using to further your leftist goals."

[Pustelnik]

Certainly during my investigations I have found out in order to be a proper leftist and revolutionary one must sacrifice a reasonable portion of joy from his life. Where there is extremely much leisure traps in current system. And fighting against this system and carpe diem thought include high risks.

[RGacky3]

First of all, Carpe Diem is not a real philosophy, Second of all your not gonna fix anything trying to curb the economy from the point of consumption, right now in Capitalism we have excess capacity, the point is, our fight is at the point of production and distribution.

Anyone that says we can change the world if only everyone in the world changes their attitude is dilusional, you can't change peoples attitudes, peoples attitudes are based on the societies they live in.

What we want to do is change the institutions and power structers that cause the problems in Capitalism.

BTW, part of joy, part of being a complete human being, is being in solidarity with people, humans are social animals and caring animals, there have been many studies on this. I'll tell you this much, right wingers, radical right wingers, are not the happiest people around, even the ruling class arn't the happiest people.

[RGacky3]

Certainly during my investigations I have found out in order to be a proper leftist and revolutionary one must sacrifice a reasonable portion of joy from his life. Where there is extremely much leisure traps in current system. And fighting against this system and carpe diem thought include high risks.

Your basically saying that the leftist movement needs more "massiahs," i.e. people willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good, thats not what we need, we need to help ordinary people to fight for their own interests.

Any one that DOES NOT live their life to the full, as much as is possible, is stupid and wasting their life, but part of living life to the full is bettering the world in which you live.

[Pustelnik]

we need to help ordinary people to fight for their own interests.

What are these interests my friend ?
Aren't they more joy ? Some joy subtracted from X group and more joy for a Y group ?


live their life to the full

This is so abstract. What does this mean ?

[Mutualizm]

Some joy subtracted from X group and more joy for a Y group ?
Joy isn't quantitative like that.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

While I do think it's worthwhile trying to get people in general to be more politically active, I don't see how promoting "hermitage" in any way helps that - indeed, it seems to me that it would repel the very "carpe diem" people you wish to convince.

Personally I don't see the attraction in being a hermit. Despite being very much an introvert, there are a handful of people whose company I would greatly miss.

[Kamos]

Trololol?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Trololol?

I think Poe's Law (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe%27s_Law) may be in effect here.

[Pustelnik]

While I do think it's worthwhile trying to get people in general to be more politically active, I don't see how promoting "hermitage" in any way helps that - indeed, it seems to me that it would repel the very "carpe diem" people you wish to convince.

Personally I don't see the attraction in being a hermit. Despite being very much an introvert, there are a handful of people whose company I would greatly miss.

Yes it would be an extreme fall from highest peaks of joy to hermitage, but truth is not in joy but in hermitage.

[Mutualizm]

truth is not in joy but in hermitage.
Prove that there's some kind of "truth in hermitage."

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Yes it would be an extreme fall from highest peaks of joy to hermitage, but truth is not in joy but in hermitage.

The truth is the truth no matter how one lives. One doesn't get a special hotline to the truth by divesting oneself of all material possessions. That's an ancient con perpetuated mainly by clergy.

[Pustelnik]

Prove that there's some kind of "truth in hermitage."

Truth is a way my friend and it can only be reached by thought and ratio. During moments of joy we lose any sense of reality but surrender ourselves to blind happiness of richness and prosperity.

[Mutualizm]

Truth is a way my friend and it can only be reached by thought and ratio. During moments of joy we lose any sense of reality but surrender ourselves to blind happiness of richness and prosperity.
That you believe joy comes only from economic prosperity says more about you than about people who are joyful.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Truth is a way my friend and it can only be reached by thought and ratio.

Nonsense. What about empiricism?


During moments of joy we lose any sense of reality

Only when on drugs or during orgasms. Other times it's possible to have joy and maintain a firm grip on reality.

[Pustelnik]

That you believe joy comes only from economic prosperity says more about you than about people who are joyful.

Why would a prospered family care for a revolution ? They would lose more than gains during a revolution. Only a mentality change in such a family can prevent this.

[Pustelnik]

Nonsense. What about empiricism?


Empiricism only shows the shadow of truth which can be understood by limited sensory organs of man.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Why would a prospered family care for a revolution ?

Because under capitalism, one's prosperity is never guaranteed.

[Mutualizm]

Empiricism only shows the shadow of truth which can be understood by limited sense organs of man.
You sound like Jim Morrison if he were talkin' about a revolution, and not just here to have a good time.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Empiricism only shows the shadow of truth which can be understood by limited sensory organs of man.

The only reason we know anything is through our sense organs. Our thoughts about the universe are just that - thoughts - until such a time as they can be confirmed with empirical evidence.

[Pustelnik]

Because under capitalism, one's prosperity is never guaranteed.

True but in their state most prospered families would regret this truth unfortunately. They would seek the closest possibilities in order to protect their prosperity instead of studying leftism deeply.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

True but in their state most prospered families would regret this truth unfortunately. They would seek the closest possibilities in order to protect their prosperity instead of studying leftism deeply.

I think the choice between reactive protection of one's assets on the one hand and "studying leftism deeply" on the other is a false dichotomy. What about activism?

[Pustelnik]

The only reason we know anything is through our sense organs. Our thoughts about the universe are just that - thoughts - until such a time as they can be confirmed with empirical evidence.

I do not regret the role of empiricism. But ratio is much superior because without it data would have no use at all. No sense would exist. Here we also find out that joy is more connected to empiricism. Mostly things we receive joy from are connected to brain-chemicals.

[Pustelnik]

I think the choice between reactive protection of one's assets on the one hand and "studying leftism deeply" on the other is a false dichotomy. What about activism?

An activism would be worthless without a theory.

I would expect from such a family first studying rather than activism. Activism are for suffering workers who may not even have time for studying.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I do not regret the role of empiricism. But ratio is much superior because without it data would have no use at all.

Ratiocination is useful in order to make sense of the data gathered, yes, but on its own is highly susceptible to one's own biases and tendencies. That's why the correcting influence of empirical evidence is needed.


No sense would exist.

Plenty of organisms seem to do just fine with sensing and not thinking.


Here we also find out that joy is more connected to empiricism. Mostly things we receive joy from are connected to brain-chemicals.

Everything that gives us joy alters our brain chemistry. That's what joy is - an electro-chemical state of the human brain.

[Pustelnik]

Plenty of organisms seem to do just fine with sensing and not thinking.

Yes like Paris Hilton, until she gets too old and gets uglier or even maybe then not. They exist within humans too...

Many of non-human such organisms are even more useful helping to produce cheese for example.

The carpe-diem discussion and all here are connected with humans not other organisms

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Yes like Paris Hilton, until she gets too old and gets uglier or even maybe then not. They exist within humans too...

This kind of statement seriously makes me worry about you. In case you missed it, I was referring to non-human organisms.


Many of non-human such organisms are even more useful helping to produce cheese for example.

I'm not talking about usefulness though. I'm pointing out that sensing came before thinking.


The carpe-diem discussion and all here are connected with humans not other organisms

But humans are connected, through various means, to other organisms...

[Pustelnik]

This kind of statement seriously makes me worry about you.

Worry about me about what ? No I understood your statement but why other organisms should be equally important to humans in this discussion ?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Worry about me about what ? No I understood your statement but why other organisms should be equally important to humans in this discussion ?

Because that's what humans descended from. Before humans evolved thought, there was only sensing. In order for sensing to have survival value, it must provide to the organism true information about its environment. That's why we can rely on our senses at least to some degree - because they provided us and our ancestors the information needed to reliably produce the next generation.

[RGacky3]

What are these interests my friend ?
Aren't they more joy ? Some joy subtracted from X group and more joy for a Y group ?


Well, for one having more control over things that effect their lives .... Thats a basic interest.

Also Joy is'nt a recourse that you take from people, if I'm happier that does'nt mean that someone else has to be sadder, what the hell is wrong with you?


This is so abstract. What does this mean ?

Its not more abstract than the entire premis of this thread.

It means living live in a way that is satisfying.


Empiricism only shows the shadow of truth which can be understood by limited sensory organs of man.

Yes, which is the basis of all science ....


Truth is a way my friend and it can only be reached by thought and ratio. During moments of joy we lose any sense of reality but surrender ourselves to blind happiness of richness and prosperity.

Now your getting into strange philosophy, and considering your writing style, mystical philosophy, this has NOTHING to do with with leftist politics and economics, and is best left to no one to worry about.

Richness and prosperity IS NOT the source of happiness for most people .... Anyway, if you want to live as a hermit and shun joy, and you think that somehow thats gonna better the world, go right ahead.


True but in their state most prospered families would regret this truth unfortunately. They would seek the closest possibilities in order to protect their prosperity instead of studying leftism deeply.

First of all, you can't study "leftism," there are plenty of political and economic ideologies and schools of thought that are considered "left."

Second, if joy is bad, then whats the point of leftism? I guess those that are destitute have it the best? Why should we ruin their bliss by giving them some means of wealth and comfortable living?


Here we also find out that joy is more connected to empiricism. Mostly things we receive joy from are connected to brain-chemicals.

Your juts talking shit here, NO ONE IS SAYING that joy is a way of learning truth, it has nothing to do with that.


An activism would be worthless without a theory.

I would expect from such a family first studying rather than activism. Activism are for suffering workers who may not even have time for studying.

There are already plenty of theories thank you very much, that are not "happiness sucks, I hate middle class life," which is not a theory rather some sort of anti-social rant.

"Don't look for joy in your life" is not a theory, its nothing, if you want to be a leftist then go out there, stand in a picket line, join a protest, work for community organizing groups, join a union, whatever. But going around telling people, working people, that they should'nt try and better their lives, i.e. introduce more joy into their lives, is just stupid.

THE WHOLE POINT of socialism, and most leftist theory, is giving people more control over their lives so that they can use them to the full, in whatever way they want, and I'm guessing non-hermitical people, unlike you, would probably use it in the persuit of happiness.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Most people need more joy in life. Besides living paycheck-to-paycheck often means you have to enjoy the moment because without stability in basic necessities, it's hard to make meaningful long-term plans. Other people react to this differently and become really tight with money and penny-pinching - people react to daily poverty in different ways, but it doesn't make a difference in the big picture other than maybe the penny-pincher are a little more prepared for minor emergencies. But for the working poor in the US, no amount of planning will keep you out of debt if you suddenly have a medical emergency and no insurance or if you become long-term unemployed. Even real planners probably don't have more than 2 months rent saved.

Self-sacrifice has little to do with being a good radical activist - it's all about what your priorities are. Someone could be self-sacrificing but see that moral stance as the most important thing and not end up organizing anything or anyone else - then their contribution to the class struggle is about the same as someone who reads leftist articles but spends their free-time playing video games and sniffing coke. Someone else might party and play video games and get drunk on the weekends, but they are dedicated to building struggles and fighting alongside workers... if they are organizing when possible and then playing video games and dropping LSD in their free-time, they still have a good effect on the class struggle despite "seizing the day" when they have spare time.

[Decommissioner]

I would not support socialism if I didn't think such a system would be engineered to maximize the happiness and potential for all individuals. To fight for anything less is selling yourself short.

[Judicator]

Maybe the poor should apply some of this "carpe diem" philosophy and get themselves out of poverty.

[RGacky3]

Maybe the poor should apply some of this "carpe diem" philosophy and get themselves out of poverty.


Yeah, because 20-25% of the country is just too lazy, and people are getting lazier during the recession.

A: Your ignorant.
B: your ignorance makes you an asshole.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Maybe the poor should apply some of this "carpe diem" philosophy and get themselves out of poverty.Yes, people in poverty should seize the day, the night, control over their own lives, the surplus wealth that their labor creates, and the running of society.