Support Zionism!

[Anti-Fascist]

Zionism is about liberating the Jewish people, who have been oppressed
for over 4000 years, and continue to be oppressed. And as Mao
said, nationalism of the oppressed is a type of internationalism. You should
support Zionism for the same reason that you support Black Nationalism.

One writer, summing up Kim Jong-il and Kim il Sung's thought, said that a
nation needs to be considered in view of "a common culture" and needs to
be viewed by "taking bloodline and language as the common features." He
said, "the territorial definition of a nation includes fellow countrymen of
the same bloodline." (Thus Amerika and other imperialist countries are
pseudo-nations.)

We must embrace Zionism, in the name of humanity. We are
humanitarianists.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

How does supporting the Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza count as liberation? The Jews have homes--they do not need to exterminate the Palestinians or lord over that land... that is oppression and domination, not liberation.

[Anti-Fascist]

Originally posted by Marxist in [email protected] 12 2003, 08:15 PM
How does supporting the Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza count as liberation? The Jews have homes--they do not need to exterminate the Palestinians or lord over that land... that is oppression and domination, not liberation.
They have killed innocent Arabs, but have never targeted them. If a
suicide bomber is threatening your life, and the lives of your fellow
countrymen, by all means destroy him, even if several innocents have to
die with him. It is self-defence. And are you forgetting that the Israel
fought a war against the Arab aggressors without killing a single
innocent civilian?

As Alan Dershowitz said:
Many more innocent Israeli civilians have been killed during the recent spate of suicide bombings than innocent Palestinians civilians. Even more important, the Israeli civilians who have been killed have been largely women and children who were specifically targeted by Palestinian terrorists. The Palestinian civilians who were killed were not targeted by Israelis, but were killed during legitimate Israeli self-defence actions against Palestinian terrorists.

The notion of a Palestinian nation is a myth. Israel had become
a nation 2000 years before Islam even existed. The Jewish people
have had a presence in Israel for over 3000 years. There have
always been Jews on Israel. There was never a massive Arab
presence.

And as Alan Dershowitz said:
It simply cannot be disputed that for decades the Palestinian leadership was more interested in there not being a Jewish state than in there being a Palestinian state. In 1917, 1937, and 1948, and between 1948-1967, the Palestinians could have had a state, if they were prepared to recognize Israel's right to exist. Most recently in 2000 and 2001 they could have had a state if they were prepared to stop the violence. Even Professor Edward Said, the prominent spokesman for the Palestinian cause in America, has acknowledged that "the whole of Palestinian nationalism was based on driving all Israelis out of the Middle East." This is a simple fact not subject to reasonable dispute.

[Saint-Just]

I'll say the same thing again:

I think the Jews are no longer oppressed, and whilst they have a right to a homeland it is not a biblical right as they say (it is written in the bible, but the bible is of no real value).

The conception of their nation was muddle-headed, they demanded their own state after being perscuted for many years in Europe. They were offered Uganda, they declined this and made their way to Palestine, they simply took Palestine. The fact is that it is impossible to claim something back after thousands of years.

Perhaps ultimately the best solution was for them to have their own homeland, but now we are condoning their violence and repression of other nations. Israel has invaded so many territories in the middle east since WWII.

[The Children of the Revolution]

They have killed innocent Arabs, but have never targeted them. If a
suicide bomber is threatening your life, and the lives of your fellow
countrymen, by all means destroy him, even if several innocents have to
die with him.


What a terrible attitude to take.

This is worse than the suicide bombers - state authorised terrorism.

Why don't the f***ing Israeli's get the hell out of the West Bank and the Gaza strip? They cannot keep destroying Palestinian homes, to make way for "settlers". Their recent actions have rightly been viewed across the world as shocking; they are repeatedly condemned internationally. Innumerable U.N. Resolutions have been passed against them... But do they listen? No. Ariel Sharon (I don't care if I spelt it wrong) and Zionism are the worst thing to hit this planet since processed cheese.

Israel is the world's number one terrorist state.

Israel should be America's next target in the "War on terror".

They are acting abominably, and are winning little support for their cause.



Postscript To German Edition Of The Rise And Fall Of Palestine
(by Norman Finkelstein)

The eminent Hebrew University sociologist Baruch
Kimmerling has described Gaza as "the largest concentration camp ever to
exist." The West Bank ranks only a mite less awful. Once the Israeli wall
currently under construction is finished, the West Bank will replace Gaza
with top honors. Bordered on both sides by four meter deep trenches,
fortified with guard towers at regular intervals, and topped with barbed
wire, this massive barricade will stretch across fully 347 kilometers -
twice the size of the Berlin Wall. (One-third has already been completed.)
Cutting deep into the West Bank and causing massive disruption for the
Palestinians wedged between it and the "Green Line" (Israel's pre-June 1967
border), the wall will probably lead to the de facto annexation of 10% of
the West Bank and the expulsion of the Palestinians living there, while also
isolating as many as 300,000 Palestinians (14% of the West Bank population)
living in East Jerusalem. To judge by recent Israeli pronouncements, it
could eventually completely enclose Palestinians and herd them into less
than half the West Bank, which Prime Minister Sharon (with U.S. blessing)
will then christen a Palestinian "state."


Support Zionism? Never.

[Rastafari]

I do agree that socialists have to be humanists...

but Zionism in its present form is a bad thing

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 02:21 PM
They have killed innocent Arabs, but have never targeted them.
[...]
And are you forgetting that the Israel fought a war against the Arab aggressors without killing a single innocent civilian?
[...]
As Alan Dershowitz said:
Many more innocent Israeli civilians have been killed during the recent spate of suicide bombings than innocent Palestinians civilians.
Those are outrageous claims! If you have credible sources for those statistics, please share them.

And are you copying and pasting this from somewhere? Why are your columns so narrow?

[Hampton]

Alan Dershowitz also said this:

"The real debate is whether such torture should take place outside of our legal system or within it. The answer to this seems clear: If we are to have torture, it should be authorized by the law."

"If torture is going to be administered as a last resort in the ticking-bomb case, to save enormous numbers of lives, it ought to be done openly, with accountability, with approval by the president of the United States or by a Supreme Court justice. I don't think we're in that situation in this case." refering to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.

Seems like a nice guy though.

[BuyOurEverything]

"If torture is going to be administered as a last resort in the ticking-bomb case, to save enormous numbers of lives, it ought to be done openly, with accountability, with approval by the president of the United States or by a Supreme Court justice. I don't think we're in that situation in this case." refering to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.

I theorectically agree with that. If there is a situation where someone has information that would save many lives and needs to be found immediately and the person refuses to give it up, then torture should be a last resort. Of course I would never support this in practice because it would be horribly abused.

As for Zionism, I support the right of the Jews to have a homeland. I don't agree that it should neccesarily be in Israel but since it is now, I support its right to exist. There are people living everywhere. I don't support the ocupation of Palestinian land of the Israeli 'settlers' and I think that if they insist on building settlements in Palestinian land, Israel should not protect them. So in theory, I support Zionism but what is being done today in the name of Zionism, I don't support.

[LuZhiming]

Israel hasn't targeted civillians? Riiight.

[Rastafari]

Alan Dershowitz also said this:

"The real debate is whether such torture should take place outside of our legal system or within it. The answer to this seems clear: If we are to have torture, it should be authorized by the law."

"If torture is going to be administered as a last resort in the ticking-bomb case, to save enormous numbers of lives, it ought to be done openly, with accountability, with approval by the president of the United States or by a Supreme Court justice. I don't think we're in that situation in this case." refering to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.

Seems like a nice guy though.
I've never liked Alan Dousche-owitz. But then again, why should I?
I have a brain

[Sheep]

what if i believe that religious ideals account for 80% of the worlds problems? please tell me what to do now. <_<

[synthesis]

The Jenin massacre

On April 3, 2002, the Israeli Army launched a massive military assault on the men, women and children of the Jenin refugee camp in the northern West Bank, Palestine. For days on end the Israelis fired shells from tanks and missiles from Apache helicopter gunships into the houses of the densely populated camp, as Israeli snipers picked people off one by one, and Israeli soldiers went house to house, blowing people up, kicking in doors and machine-gunning everyone inside. When the slaughter was over, approximately 300 to 600 Palestinian people were dead. Men, women and children.

The exact number may never be known, because the Israelis made every effort to cover up their war crimes, literally. Using giant armored 60-ton bulldozers they tore down every house in the huge central area of the camp where most of the murders took place, burying some people alive, along with most of the corpses of those who were already dead.

There are reports that the Israelis also collected a large number of corpses and buried them in a mass grave, covering it up with the bulldozed rubble of the houses, and that they even loaded corpses into trucks and drove them away for burial, or cremation, in some hidden location. Whatever the case, the Israelis certainly don’t want the world to know the scale of the atrocities they committed in Jenin.

In an April 11, 2002 article for The Independent (London), Justin Huggler wrote:

Nahum Barnea, a well-known Israeli commentator, wrote in Yedioth Ahronoth yesterday: “A number of discussions were held on this disturbing issue by military officials. The general conclusion was that some way has to be found to move the bodies into Israel. If Israel does not find some way to give them a dignified burial, the bodies will bury Israel.”

Actually, Israel’s own monstrous evil will bury Israel, no matter how well they dispose of the bodies. That is guaranteed by the law of cause and effect. But Israeli war criminals did apparently find some way to “move the bodies into Israel”, and in the months since the massacre, Israeli authorities and their minions in the Zionist-controlled mass-media have been trying to bury the story as well — even going so far as to deny that a massacre took place at all. They say triumphantly that “only” about 52 bodies were recovered, half of whom (they claim) were armed militants. They actually admit, therefore, that at least 26 victims were innocent civilian men, women and children. And yet, by some feat of twisted logic, it doesn’t qualify as a massacre. End of story. Forget about it. Sweep it under the blood-soaked rug, along with all the other Israeli massacres, war crimes, assassinations, torture and state terrorism of the last 55 years.

No word, as yet, on just how many bodies are required before a massacre can be officially acknowledged as such by the Lord High Executioners in the land of Zion. No doubt the sky’s the limit, where Palestinian corpses are concerned.

Details of the massacre

The Israeli Army’s war-criminal assault on the people of Jenin lasted for 12 unspeakably horrible days and nights, during which Israeli soldiers shot at all ambulances that attempted to pick up the growing numbers of dead and wounded people. Not one person could be rescued in all that time. Those who were injured — civilian men, women and children — were left to die of their wounds, bleeding to death slowly where they fell if they were outside, within range of Israeli snipers. Anyone who attempted to carry the wounded person off the street was also shot by the snipers. In some cases Israeli tanks ran over the wounded people as they lay helplessly on the street — just to send a message. Letting the Palestinians know, in no uncertain terms, just what kind of creatures “The Chosen People” truly are.

If the wounded Palestinian people were lucky enough to be shot or hit by shrapnel while inside a building, out of reach of the tanks and snipers, they died among their grieving family members. In many cases people had to stay inside buildings for many days with the rotting corpses of their loved ones, because if they went outside the Israeli soldiers would shoot them.

When an Israeli attack helicopter fired a round through the wall of one house, it hit a 17-year-old Palestinian young man in the chest and ripped out of his back. His mother and brother were with him, and they called for an ambulance. When it arrived, Israeli soldiers shot at it, forcing it to go back. The young man was slowly bleeding to death, and by 10 o’clock that night his mother could stand it no longer. She ran out into the street screaming for help, and the Israeli soldiers shot her in the head.

Somehow somebody managed to get her body off the street without getting shot themselves, and her son had to spend the next two days and nights with the dead bodies of his mother and brother. This kind of thing happened to many people in the Jenin refugee camp.

Early in the morning on April 3, the first day of the assault, Israeli soldiers firing from within an occupied house shot a young Palestinian man in the leg as he stood at the front gate of his house. He fell and began screaming in pain, and when he tried to stand up and run back inside they shot him in the abdomen and chest. A Palestinian nurse and her sister in a nearby house heard his screams and ran out to try and help him. The Israeli soldiers shot the sister in the leg, and shot the nurse in the abdomen. Before the two women could drag themselves back to their house, Israeli soldiers shot the sister in the other leg, and murdered the nurse with a bullet through the heart.

On the evening of April 3, two old Palestinian men, one 85-years-old and the other 72, were sitting in a house when Israeli soldiers shot the door off and burst inside, shooting the 85-year-old man dead. The Israelis then pushed the 72-year-old man at gunpoint through the house as they searched it. Finding nobody else, they tied him to a chair with plastic tape and left him there for ten hours. The next morning they cut him loose and used the 72-year-old man as a human shield as they went from house to house looking for more people to kill.

Israeli soldiers often used Palestinian people as human shields. In one case the soldiers rested their rifles on the shoulders of a Palestinian man and his 14-year-old son and fired into the houses of other people.

On April 5, an Israeli sniper shot a 44-year-old Palestinian man as he stood in an upstairs room of his home. He was the father of four children, one of whom was dead, the young man who was murdered along with the nurse on April 3. The 44-year-old man’s wife and three remaining children heard him call for help after he was shot, and they all ran up to the room and saw him collapse, a gunshot wound to his head. The wife screamed outside for someone to call an ambulance, but when it arrived the Israeli soldiers shot at it, preventing the crew from rescuing the man. He died within an hour.

On the afternoon of April 5, Israeli soldiers attached a bomb to a Palestinian house, then called on the people inside to come to the door. When a woman opened the door the bomb exploded, killing her. While her sisters and others screamed in futility for an ambulance, the Israeli soldiers were laughing because the bloody face of the woman they’d just murdered was horribly disfigured by the blast.

On April 6, a 37-year-old disabled Palestinian man was in his house when an Israeli soldier in a huge armored bulldozer began to destroy it. The disabled man had been unable all his life to speak, eat or move without help, and his mother and sister ran outside and begged the soldier to stop just long enough for them to get the helpless man out. The Israeli soldier called them “*****es” and bulldozed the house down on top of the disabled man, burying him alive. His mother and sister were unable to find him in the next few days. His dead body was finally recovered from the rubble, fifteen days later.

On April 10, a 57-year old Palestinian man who was confined to a wheelchair was rolling down a road in the refugee camp when he came upon an Israeli tank. The Israelis shot him, and then just for good measure they ran over him with their tank, crushing him and his wheelchair flat.

All during the massacre at the Jenin refugee camp, the Israelis kept the entire city of Jenin, which is next to the camp, under complete curfew for eight days. On the morning of April 11, the Israelis told the people of Jenin city that the curfew would be lifted for a few hours, allowing them to get food. Two Palestinian boys, aged 8 and 14, were walking with a group of Palestinian women to a nearby grocery store when they saw an Israeli tank in the middle of a road about 220 feet away. The tank turned toward the group and without warning began to fire. The 14-year-old boy was hit, and he died on the street. The 8-year-old boy and the women survived and carried their friend’s body to a car.

During the first week of the Jenin massacre there was a sporadic but determined resistance from the relatively small number of Palestinian fighters who were there. They were truly courageous men, armed with nothing but rifles and small explosives, totally outnumbered and outgunned, fighting a powerful military armed with tanks and helicopter gunships and all the latest technology, paid for by American taxpayers. The Palestinian fighters were rightfully defending themselves, their families, their wives and children, their mothers, fathers and grandparents against the murderous, criminal assault by the viciously racist Israeli state terrorists.

On April 9, the Palestinian fighters managed to ambush a group of the Israeli war criminals, killing 13 of them. Predictably, after the ambush the stinking Israeli soldiers became even more brutal than before, killing anybody and everybody they could get in their sights. The helpless Palestinian man in the wheelchair was shot and run over by the Israeli tank the next day, no doubt for revenge.

Covering up Israeli war crimes

All during the massacre, the Israelis who were driving massive, 60-ton, armored bulldozers had been busily tearing down houses and burying people alive. After April 9, however, they went into overdrive. One civilian Israeli bulldozer operator named Moshe Nissim was particularly maniacal. Using the alias “Kurdi Bear” for communications with Israeli soldiers, he drank bottle after bottle of whiskey as he destroyed house after house in the terrorized refugee camp. Protected by the might of the Israeli Army, fueled by his “liquid courage” and possessed by something vile, the Israeli nut case worked for 75 straight hours, night and day, ripping walls out, crushing houses down and burying Palestinian people alive — people who knew they’d be shot dead by Israeli soldiers if they tried to escape their houses.

Afterwards, Moshe Nissim was so pleased with himself that he wrote an article for Yediot Aharonot, an Israeli newspaper, in which he boasted of his heroic exploits. Freely admitting that he had brought an ample supply of booze to fortify himself for the task, he nevertheless insisted that he saw no people underneath his bulldozer blade. Obviously however, considering what a hallucinatory state he must have been in, drinking bottles of whiskey and going without sleep for 75 hours, it’s not likely he would have found it easy to distinguish a human being from the broken rubble and clouds of dust, nor heard their desperate screams over the roar of the giant bulldozer engine. In an attempt to portray himself as a fine and righteous, moral human being, however, he claimed that he “felt sorry” for Palestinian children. And yet he admitted quite openly that he “had no mercy” for any of their parents he might have buried alive.

Moshe Nissim wrote further:

“Even a pregnant woman — shoot her without mercy, if she has a terrorist behind her. This is the way I thought in Jenin.”
This is the way most Israeli soldiers think, not just this drunken hypocrite.

In the end, the hate-and-alcohol-intoxicated Israeli psychopath flattened so many Palestinian houses that there was a huge, completely devastated area in the center of the refugee camp. Far from having any shame, Moshe Nissim says he gave a “gift” to the Palestinians, because now they have a nice, big, open “football field” in which to play.

Aftermath

When the psychopathic bulldozer operators left and the bestial Israeli soldiers were finally finished with their sadistic slaughter, they strutted proudly out of the hell-realm they had created, grinning and waving victory salutes, telling each other what brave heroes they all were. Naturally Ariel Sharon was proud of his fellow baby-killers, and he praised “our wonderful soldiers” for the great job they did.

Israeli tanks finally withdrew from the suffering camp, but they kept it surrounded, and entertained themselves through the long dull hours of guard duty by firing occasional rounds at people who tried to return to their destroyed houses, searching for survivors. Also from safe distances, equally cowardly Israeli snipers shot at Palestinian people who were desperately digging with their bare hands through the massive piles of twisted, broken rubble in hopes of finding their loved ones still alive.

When relief workers were finally allowed by the Israelis to enter the devastated camp, they were shaken by what they found. Corpses were lying all over the place, crawling with flies and worms, and the smell of rotting human flesh was everywhere. Particularly around and upon the mounds of bulldozed houses, people could smell the decaying corpses in the rubble below their feet.

Terje Roed-Larsen, the UN special envoy, said:

“We have expert people here who have been in war zones and earthquakes, and they say they have never seen anything like it. It is horrifying beyond belief.”


The Jenin refugee camp was home to 13,000 people, most of whom were refugees (and the children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren of refugees) from the Haifa area — from which they fled Israeli terrorism in 1948.

[elijahcraig]

Zionism Is Racism.

-A Jew.

[(*]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 10:44 PM
Zionism Is Racism.

-A Jew.
Yeah, what he said.


Zionism was based on creating a homeland for the Jews. They have Israel.

There is no reason for Zionism to exist anymore, but it does.

Why? Zionism has taken on a new form. Zionists want all the land in that area (from the euphrates to the nile). How will they achieve this? Destruction of the Palestinians and Arabs.

That is the goal of present day Zionists.

Remember, there are extremists on both sides.

Peace

[Anti-Fascist]

Originally posted by Marxist in Nebraska+Nov 12 2003, 09:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Marxist in Nebraska @ Nov 12 2003, 09:07 PM)
[email protected] 12 2003, 02:21 PM
They have killed innocent Arabs, but have never targeted them.
[...]
And are you forgetting that the Israel fought a war against the Arab aggressors without killing a single innocent civilian?
[...]
As Alan Dershowitz said:
Many more innocent Israeli civilians have been killed during the recent spate of suicide bombings than innocent Palestinians civilians.
Those are outrageous claims&#33; If you have credible sources for those statistics, please share them.

And are you copying and pasting this from somewhere? Why are your columns so narrow? [/b]
I always make my columns narrow. How do I do this? I hit
enter at the end of each line.

The only thing I pasted was the Dorshewitz quotations.
These did not have a narrow column.

[Guest1]

I&#39;m a palestinian.
I believe in the elimination of the state of israel.

but with good reason, I&#39;m for the two peoples, one state solution. A state not based on religion, but complete, secular democracy.

don&#39;t tell me it doesn&#39;t work, it worked in canada where they slaughtered the natives, the us where they slaughtered the natives, south america where they slaughtered the natives, south africa where they slaughtered the natives, why shouldn&#39;t it work in israel where they slaughtered the natives?

[BuyOurEverything]

I&#39;m a palestinian.
I believe in the elimination of the state of israel.

but with good reason, I&#39;m for the two peoples, one state solution. A state not based on religion, but complete, secular democracy.

don&#39;t tell me it doesn&#39;t work, it worked in canada where they slaughtered the natives, the us where they slaughtered the natives, south america where they slaughtered the natives, south africa where they slaughtered the natives, why shouldn&#39;t it work in israel where they slaughtered the natives?

Alright, I&#39;ll buy that. I&#39;m not sure if it would work though. The natives in Canada generally aren&#39;t treated that well. There&#39;s a lot of racism against them and a majority of them a poor and live on residences. If this is what would happen to the Palestinians, which I think there&#39;s a good chance it would, maybe two seperate communities are better.

[flayer2]

Good grief... A zionist communist. Do "aparteid walls" and "jews only" roads fit into your ideology?

[Totalitarian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 08:00 PM
Zionism is about liberating the Jewish people, who have been oppressed
for over 4000 years, and continue to be oppressed. And as Mao
said, nationalism of the oppressed is a type of internationalism. You should
support Zionism for the same reason that you support Black Nationalism.


According to this logic....you should also support White Nationalism.

Are you prepared to take that step?

[Sabocat]

Yes DM, I was thinking the same thing. How soon he has forgotten the Jenin massacre.

Just in case you need a reminder A-F, I suggest you look at some of these pictures.

http://www.nauseamanifesto.com/jenin/jenin6.html

I think you&#39;ll find, that these people qualify as targeted civilians.

[Anti-Fascist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 09:16 PM
Alan Dershowitz also said this:

"The real debate is whether such torture should take place outside of our legal system or within it. The answer to this seems clear: If we are to have torture, it should be authorized by the law."

"If torture is going to be administered as a last resort in the ticking-bomb case, to save enormous numbers of lives, it ought to be done openly, with accountability, with approval by the president of the United States or by a Supreme Court justice. I don&#39;t think we&#39;re in that situation in this case." refering to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.

Seems like a nice guy though.
He is correct.

[Anti-Fascist]

Originally posted by Totalitarian+Nov 13 2003, 07:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Totalitarian @ Nov 13 2003, 07:45 AM)
[email protected] 12 2003, 08:00 PM
Zionism is about liberating the Jewish people, who have been oppressed
for over 4000 years, and continue to be oppressed. And as Mao
said, nationalism of the oppressed is a type of internationalism. You should
support Zionism for the same reason that you support Black Nationalism.


According to this logic....you should also support White Nationalism.

Are you prepared to take that step? [/b]
No&#33; I am against White Nationalism. Whites are not oppressed
as a race. Jews and Blacks, on the other hand, are.

[Intifada]

No&#33; I am against White Nationalism. Whites are not oppressed
as a race. Jews and Blacks, on the other hand, are.

the arabs and palestinians are also oppressed.

israel is a terrorist state.

zionism=racism

free the palestinian people&#33;

[Edelweiss]

So for the first time at Che-Lives I see "leftist zionism", a thing which is quiet usal in Germany (and a topic which is deeply splitting the German Left).
I do support the right of Israel to exist aswell, although I wouldn&#39;t call me a zionist. I agree ith anti-fascist to some extent when he says that "Zionism is about liberating the Jewish people, who have been oppressed for over 4000 years, and continue to be oppressed". Although the Jews are certainly not oppresed anymore in the middle east, but they actually have become the oppresors themself. But Auschwitz has shown that a Jewsish homeland IS neccessary, it secures the welfare of the Jews worldwide, and guarantess that another holocaust can NEVER happen again. As long there is anti-semtism in the world, as long is Israel a neccesarry evil.
For the record: I strongly disagree with the current criminal politics of Israel towards the Palestinians.

[Anti-Fascist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 04:38 PM

No&#33; I am against White Nationalism. Whites are not oppressed
as a race. Jews and Blacks, on the other hand, are.

the arabs and palestinians are also oppressed.

israel is a terrorist state.

zionism=racism

free the palestinian people&#33;
To repeat.

The notion of a Palestinian nation is a myth. Israel had become
a nation 2000 years before Islam even existed. The Jewish people
have had a presence in Israel for over 3000 years. There have
always been Jews on Israel. There was never a massive Arab
presence.

And as Alan Dershowitz said:
It simply cannot be disputed that for decades the Palestinian leadership was more interested in there not being a Jewish state than in there being a Palestinian state. In 1917, 1937, and 1948, and between 1948-1967, the Palestinians could have had a state, if they were prepared to recognize Israel&#39;s right to exist. Most recently in 2000 and 2001 they could have had a state if they were prepared to stop the violence. Even Professor Edward Said, the prominent spokesman for the Palestinian cause in America, has acknowledged that "the whole of Palestinian nationalism was based on driving all Israelis out of the Middle East." This is a simple fact not subject to reasonable dispute.



And as for Malte, I am in complete agreement with him.

[Intifada]

israel is behind the genocide and ethnic cleansing of the palestinian people. the state of israel was made in 1948, the jews only claim that the land of palestine is rightfully theirs- because a book says so, lol&#33;

[Pro-MyIdeals]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 12:14 PM
israel is behind the genocide and ethnic cleansing of the palestinian people. the state of israel was made in 1948, the jews only claim that the land of palestine is rightfully theirs- because a book says so, lol&#33;
same can be said for the palestinians

[Intifada]

same can be said for the palestinians

no it cant

the palestinians are just fighting back against israeli aggression.

[El Brujo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 04:00 AM
Zionism is about liberating the Jewish people, who have been oppressed
for over 4000 years, and continue to be oppressed.
Zionism is not about "liberating the Jewish people," it is about giving the west (particularly, the US) a platform for neo-colonial rule in the Middle East. The Jews are most certainly not "still oppressed", quite the contrary. Do not use events that occured over half a century ago to promote another form of racist imperialism.


And as Mao
said, nationalism of the oppressed is a type of internationalism. You should
support Zionism for the same reason that you support Black Nationalism.

I agree with the statement, but that is exactly why we should oppose Zionism and support Arab nationalism. Zionism, as I have said, is very much nationalism of the opressor. Jews are not a race, they are white (and have always existed within white oppressor populations in apartheid states). I find it ironic that you compere Zionism to black nationalism when Israel was the biggest financial supporter to apartheid South Africa in the Middle East and vice versa.


We must embrace Zionism, in the name of humanity. We are
humanitarianists.

http://www.halturnershow.com/IsraeliAtrocities.html

Browse that site and then try to convince us to "embrace Zionism in the name of humanity."

[El Brujo]

Originally posted by Anti-Fascist+Nov 14 2003, 01:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Anti-Fascist @ Nov 14 2003, 01:01 AM)
[email protected] 13 2003, 04:38 PM

No&#33; I am against White Nationalism. Whites are not oppressed
as a race. Jews and Blacks, on the other hand, are.

the arabs and palestinians are also oppressed.

israel is a terrorist state.

zionism=racism

free the palestinian people&#33;
To repeat.

The notion of a Palestinian nation is a myth. Israel had become
a nation 2000 years before Islam even existed. The Jewish people
have had a presence in Israel for over 3000 years. There have
always been Jews on Israel. There was never a massive Arab
presence.

And as Alan Dershowitz said:
It simply cannot be disputed that for decades the Palestinian leadership was more interested in there not being a Jewish state than in there being a Palestinian state. In 1917, 1937, and 1948, and between 1948-1967, the Palestinians could have had a state, if they were prepared to recognize Israel&#39;s right to exist. Most recently in 2000 and 2001 they could have had a state if they were prepared to stop the violence. Even Professor Edward Said, the prominent spokesman for the Palestinian cause in America, has acknowledged that "the whole of Palestinian nationalism was based on driving all Israelis out of the Middle East." This is a simple fact not subject to reasonable dispute.



And as for Malte, I am in complete agreement with him. [/b]
Same old excuse I always hear neo-conservatives blurt out. They "owned" the land over 2000 years ago&#33; If that were a logical reason for the invasion and theft of land by part of the Israelites, the same excuse could be used to reinstate the Roman Empire (after all, Rome "owned" all of Europe during the time the Jews were kicked out of Europe). In that case, America would be a myth too and we would have all non-natives sent back to Europe, Africa or wherever and the Mayan, Incan and Aztec empires would be reinstated. Not supporting all of the above while supporting Israili crimes is a heavy case of double-standards.

[Rasta Sapian]

Unstable Homeland fer sur
World Wide minorities yep yep
People of equal rights damm strait man
Praise Zion :)

pEaCe LoVe LoCk AnD lOdE :blink:

[Guest1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 12:01 PM
To repeat.

The notion of a Palestinian nation is a myth. Israel had become
a nation 2000 years before Islam even existed. The Jewish people
have had a presence in Israel for over 3000 years. There have
always been Jews on Israel. There was never a massive Arab
presence.

And as Alan Dershowitz said:
It simply cannot be disputed that for decades the Palestinian leadership was more interested in there not being a Jewish state than in there being a Palestinian state. In 1917, 1937, and 1948, and between 1948-1967, the Palestinians could have had a state, if they were prepared to recognize Israel&#39;s right to exist. Most recently in 2000 and 2001 they could have had a state if they were prepared to stop the violence. Even Professor Edward Said, the prominent spokesman for the Palestinian cause in America, has acknowledged that "the whole of Palestinian nationalism was based on driving all Israelis out of the Middle East." This is a simple fact not subject to reasonable dispute.



And as for Malte, I am in complete agreement with him.
you sir, are guilty of genocide.
erasing a people from history, be it through killing them, or denying their existance, is genocide.

I will respect your other opinions, but please refrain from putting yourself alongside holocaust deniers on my list of people to hate.

The PLO&#39;s crimes, the cirmes of extremist Islamic terrorism and the crimes of Arab states are quite obvious to every humanitarian. But don&#39;t think that the majority of Palestinians do not hate all three of these plagues. And don&#39;t think you&#39;ll get away with justifying killing civilians by blaming the leaders.



as to why palestinians will not be put into reserves, they would make up about 50% of a new united state, and as such, it could not happen. The inclusion of natives in all the states I mentioned came too late int he colonization process to help them. It is not too late for Palestinians.

[Totalitarian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 04:02 PM
No&#33; I am against White Nationalism. Whites are not oppressed
as a race. Jews and Blacks, on the other hand, are.
This is yet another zionist lie.

Jews are no more oppressed than whites are.

[Totalitarian]

Malte:

a Jewsish homeland IS neccessary

Do you support the law of return, which guarantees the automatic right of citizenship to Jews only?

[Saint-Just]

You may say that since a Jewish state existed 1000s of years ago it it too long for them to claim back that land. However, by international standards a state&#39;s permanence is recognised after 50 years. Israel past that point a few years ago, therefore we cannot remove Israel and so they do have a right to that land although it has nothing to do with what happened 1000s of years ago.

[Reuben]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 13 2003, 05:01 AM
I&#39;m a palestinian.
I believe in the elimination of the state of israel.

but with good reason, I&#39;m for the two peoples, one state solution. A state not based on religion, but complete, secular democracy.

don&#39;t tell me it doesn&#39;t work, it worked in canada where they slaughtered the natives, the us where they slaughtered the natives, south america where they slaughtered the natives, south africa where they slaughtered the natives, why shouldn&#39;t it work in israel where they slaughtered the natives?
as usual with these debates Che y mar. saysthe most sensible thing

[Totalitarian]

Israel&#39;s government discriminates against gentiles. It is hypocritical for jews to support that, while whining about other forms of discriminatory ethnic nationalism (such as WN).

"Anti-fascist", you are an utter fraud.

[RedAnarchist]

It is not the Jewish who run Israel or persecute the Palestinians. It is the Zionists. They have hijacked and exploited Judaism just like Al-Qaeda have done with Islam, except that the Yanks tolerate the Zionists.

[Dhul Fiqar]

The bottom line is this: Why does ONE race get it&#39;s own ethnic state?

What would we say if Mugabe decided to take away passports of all white people? There was a big shitstorm when he took back the land their ancestors stole - how do you think the world would react to a "black homeland"?

Or what if Germany decided there was a need for a "white homeland" - and decided to eliminate all non-caucasians from their country? Oh, wait, that DID happen, didn&#39;t it?

A racial state is a disgusting Nazi-esque idea and I simply CANNOT understand why rational people support state-sponsored racial discrimination. By the same logic we should all aplaud Mugabe - and encourage him to get rid of the rest of the whites. We should be supportive of Hitlers idea of a jew-free Germany - because we have shown support for the idea of a homogenous country full of people from ONE race.

It makes me sick to think about the logic of jews getting their own state - what about black people and the Chinese and other cultures around the world that have been discriminated against and actually SLAUGHTERED in far greater numbers than jews? Do they not deserve a racially pure homeland? Should they not keep all non-ethnically pure people out of their country? Why should anyone be allowed to get a passport without being able to prove his exact ethnic background? By this logic - any form of institutional discrimination based on race is acceptable as long as it serves to correct some historical wrongs. Then let&#39;s extend it to all races - shall we?

Either you support the idea of legally enforced racial purity or you do not support the state of Israel to exist in it&#39;s current form. The third option is one of hypocracy - basically claiming that jews have a higher right to existance than any other race on the planet.

Nobody "deserves" an ethnically pure country - because no good can come of it for anyone&#33; If the Germans didn&#39;t "deserve" an ethnically pure homeland - and if they were wrong to pursue that ideal - then Israel has no right to do it either.

--- G.

[Intifada]

If the Germans didn&#39;t "deserve" an ethnically pure homeland - and if they were wrong to pursue that ideal - then Israel has no right to do it either.


very good point.

zionism=nazism

[(*]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 11:24 AM

zionism=nazism
=Racism?

[Intifada]

ZIONISM=NAZISM=FASCISM=RACISM

basically zionism is fucked up&#33; :angry:

[Reuben]

hmmmmmm

the zionism= nazism slogan is one of those slogans that is osted around left wing message board from time to to time. WHile it seems like quite a clever and shaprp comparison to make (perhap it as the first time it was made) it is an inaccurate and extremely inadequate way of understanding both zionism as ideological movement and the state of Israel.

TO start lets define zionism. Broadly it can have to meanings: the abstract belief in the existence of a jewish state, and secondly it can mean allegiance to Israel.
Primarily zionism meant the idea that a state should exist for the jewish people. It was formulated at a time when many ethnic groups in Europe were putting forward the idea of self determination. hile jews were not distinguished by territorial boundaries in the wa that say the Poles were, the did have the characteristics of an ethnic group with a common history culture and language (Yiddish). Most marxists would agree that all of these nationalisms were reationary and barriers to class consciousness and unity, and furthermore many european nationalisms, both nationalisms of the oppressed and those of the oppressors had tendencies towards racism. Jews suffered significan institutional and non-institutional racism in the new polish state for example. Essentially zionism demanded, like the poles ukrainians etc. a state whose primary ethnic character was jewish. In some ways this was one of the most understandable of european nationalisms given the 1400 anti-jewish laws enforced within the Russian empire. It was ndeniably rectionary and lik all ethnic nationalisms hada tendency towards racism, yet there is not basis for signling out the theorietical idea of a jeiwhs state (in no particular area) as being more Nazi than other reactionary ethnic nationalisms.
There is, i will concede, greater scope for associating practical zionism, ie allegiance with the Israeli state with only nazi germany as well as a host of other racist states. Israel has continuously carried out only political repression but a whole number of violent and murderous policies aimed at collectively punishing an entire ethnic population. However is there a systematic genocide, an attempt to kill every single palestinian beign carried out. THe answer i would give is no. Israeli state terrorism has killed over 2400 palestinians in the last 3 and a half years. A shocking and terrible statistic. Yet israels actions do not amount by any stretch of the igamigantion to an attempt to murder every single palestinian in a way which would be characteristic of nazism. Better analogies for israeli state terror would be South Africas Treatmen of the blacks, Tsarist Russia&#39;s treatment of the jews, Saddams treatment of kurds.
This brings me to my final question why is it that the analogy of nazi germany is brought u so often compared to the much more rarely used but much more accurate analogies of zionism=bathism, or israel=south africa. DO people genuinely feel that the most accurate analogy i nthe world for israelstreatment of the palestinians is nazi germany or is the overuse/misuse of this analogy due to something else?
Zionism must be opposed. Yet it is far better to oppose it for what it is not what it is like. The atrocities of 48 and 2002 of dier yassin and jenin give socialists what shuld be ample ground to attack zionism without having to resort to flawed and cliched analogies.


PS

Some of you may recognise some ofthis from the SF forum where i m internationalist - could be asked to write a whole new post on it but arguments are just as relevant

[Dhul Fiqar]

You are forgetting that 99% of Israeli crimes - murders and forceful land seizures/expulsions happened long before the current Intifada. In fact I would say a lot of it happened before the &#39;67 war - there was a systematic terrorist campaign to frighten people out of their homes before and after &#39;48 - the most famous of which was the bombing of a hotel by none other than David ben Gurion.

--- G.

[BuyOurEverything]

I think that the idea of states in general is a flawed one. What makes a person in one country different than a person in another? Nothing, and yet they are treated differently, due to different economies and amounts of resources. We should strive for internationalism and the creation of a global government. However, in the meantime, cultural groups should have a right to a homeland where they can have laws and a government which respects their culture. That goes for every group with a unique culture, should they wish.


as usual with these debates Che y mar. says the most sensible thing

No it&#39;s not sensible at all. Like I said before, ask the natives in Canada how great they&#39;re treated in the "one state solution." I&#39;ll give you a hint. Unless you think disproportionate suicide rates, poverty, alcoholism and racism are signs of a good system, you&#39;ll be sadly disapointed.


while whining about other forms of discriminatory ethnic nationalism (such as WN).

Maybe you wouldn&#39;t think it was &#39;whining&#39; if you&#39;d actually experienced anti-semitism. Any form of discrimination is horrible and the fact that you&#39;re trying to legitimize anti-semitism just legitimizes your restriction even more.


This is yet another zionist lie.

Jews are no more oppressed than whites are.

You&#39;ve got to be kidding.


ZIONISM=NAZISM=FASCISM=RACISM

basically zionism is fucked up&#33;

Well, you raise a good point... actually no you don&#39;t, shut up.

[Intifada]

are you saying that zionists are not fascist and racist???

the nazis persecuted the jews and now the jews(not all of them) persecute the palestinians.

its all a vicious cycle

[BuyOurEverything]

are you saying that zionists are not fascist and racist???

Zionism in and of itself is the belief in a homeland for the Jewish people. Considering Israel was founded not long after the holocaust ended, this belief was no more racist or facsist than the black panthers. I believe that Israel has a right to exist and therefor I am a Zionist. I also believe that Palestine has an equal right to exist. I am vehemently opposed to Israel&#39;s brutal occupation of Palestine but the situation is a lot more complicated than you make it out to be. So in short, no, zionism does not equal racism of facsism.


the nazis persecuted the jews and now the jews(not all of them) persecute the palestinians.

Wow, good thing you put that diclaimer in there, otherwise people might think you&#39;re racist&#33; It&#39;s obviously not the Jews that persecute the Palestinians any more than &#39;white people&#39; are responsible for the crimes of France.

[(*]

Zionism was the support of a Jewish Homeland.

Now it is for the support of Israel. Pro-occupation. Anti-Palestinian statehood.
Zionism is nationalism

[Loknar]

Never mind that the Palestinians have been offered a homeland on more than 1 occasion.

Question: Why is Israel in he west bank and Gaza strip? "Because they&#39;re fascist and hate Palestinians and they’re Nazi&#39;s" wont be accepted.

[Totalitarian]

Reuben:

However is there a systematic genocide, an attempt to kill every single palestinian beign carried out. THe answer i would give is no. Israeli state terrorism has killed over 2400 palestinians in the last 3 and a half years. A shocking and terrible statistic. Yet israels actions do not amount by any stretch of the igamigantion to an attempt to murder every single palestinian in a way which would be characteristic of nazism.

Actually, the comparison to nazi germany is very apt. Similar concepts exist in both situations:

- Collective punishment
- Restrictions on movement based on ethnicity
- Citizenship granted according to ancestry (Nuremberg principle)
- Lebensraum (Illegal jewish settlements continue to expand in palestine, while the natives are pressured to leave or forced out
- Massacre of unarmed civilian populations
- Routine use of torture
- Arbitrary use of detention (concentration) camps
- Talk of forced population transfer in order to solve the "palestinian problem"
- Opponents of zionism labelled "anti-semites", opponents of nazism were labelled "anti-german"
- Israelis are forced to carry identification papers to mark them as Jew, Muslim or Christian
- Palestinians must go through military checkpoints in order to move from place to place; they need a permit from the army to visist relatives in another city
- Jews had the "warsaw ghetto"; palestinians have the west bank & gaza strip
- Palestians have their land stolen while the government builds an apartheid wall
- The nazis did not try to exterminate every single jew: As late as 1945 there was a rabbi living in Berlin, some jews served in Hitler&#39;s army


I could think of more similarities, but i don&#39;t have all day.

[Totalitarian]

Totalitarian:"This is yet another zionist lie.

Jews are no more oppressed than whites are."


Buyoureverything: "You&#39;ve got to be kidding."


Nah, dude. I&#39;m not kidding. But perhaps you could tell me.....in what way are jews an oppressed people?

And i&#39;m referring to the present, so don&#39;t try and bring up events which occured 60 years ago.

[BuyOurEverything]

Nah, dude. I&#39;m not kidding. But perhaps you could tell me.....in what way are jews an oppressed people?

And i&#39;m referring to the present, so don&#39;t try and bring up events which occured 60 years ago.

Anti-semitism. Many people hate Jews and anti-semetic comments are still commonplace (this is from my personal observation in BC.) Synygouges are still graffitied and even fire-bombed (one happened not to long ago in Saskatchewan I believe.)

[Totalitarian]

Many people hate Jews and anti-semetic comments are still commonplace (this is from my personal observation in BC.)

Anti-semitic comments do not constitute oppression. Anti-white comments are far more prevalent, and in some countries (such as germany), anti-semitic speech is a criminal offense.


Synygouges are still graffitied and even fire-bombed (one happened not to long ago in Saskatchewan I believe.)

Ok, good point.

[BuyOurEverything]

Anti-semitic comments do not constitute oppression. Anti-white comments are far more prevalent, and in some countries (such as germany), anti-semitic speech is a criminal offense.

I digress. Most people don&#39;t live in Germany and white people are a majority. Jews are a minority, there&#39;s a difference. Contrary to popular belief, not all (or even most) jews are rich or in positions of power. Constant anti-semetic remarks and the anti-semetic attitudes they reveal are forms of oppression.

[Totalitarian]

Most jews may not be rich, but they have a higher average wealth than most ethnic groups.

Judaism is extremely influential. The fact that it is in many cases illegal to criticise them, shows how much power jewish people have in society. Recently a German MP was kicked out of his party, and is being investigated by the police, because he compared bolshevik jews to nazis in a speech.

In the USA, the Jewish ADL is a hugely powerful group which runs seminars to train police officers, makes sure that its propaganda is taught in public schools, and writes the "hate crime" legislation. They also spy on American citizens, and get away with it. They support apartheid in Israel, and the mass-media refers to them as a "civil rights organisation".

The leader of the ADL even wrote an opinion piece in a newspaper recently where he compared gentile politicians to animals, saying that they had "hind legs". There was no outrage, yet if someone else had compared Jews to animals they would be accused of anti-semitism and hate.

Judaism is so powerful in America that even though the US Constitution forbids endorsement of any religion, the US Congress passed a law in 1991 endorsing the Jewish supremacist caste system known as the "Noahide Laws". Every year President Bush releases a press statement ritually praising a deceased rabbi known as the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who once said that gentiles were an inferior species created by God only to serve the Jews.

This is why i laugh when i hear that Jews are oppressed.

[Reuben]

This is why i laugh when i hear that Jews are oppressed.

Interesting that you find it funny. I didnt find my experience of living in a street with violent anti-semtes who knewabout my ethnic background quite so funny.



are you saying that zionists are not fascist and racist???

Ihatebush its interesting that when i unravel your oversimplistic sloganising you start trying to pretend i was arguing something which i was not.

If you look at my argument i was making it explicitly clear that israel is a regime guilty of disgusting racial opprsession. In fact i hthink i compared Israel in its reatment of the palestinians to Saddam&#39;s treatment of the Kurds.

In this context i see know reason for you to ask me whether i think zionists ( i am assuming you mean pro-israeli ideologues since zionism actually refers to an extremely broad ideological movement historically) are racists. I was simply stating that zionists=nazis is an innaccurate oversimplifiction.

[Intifada]

Zionism in and of itself is the belief in a homeland for the Jewish people.

the jewish people now do have a homeland and have had so for a long time. the fact is that israel is a terrorist state. it terrorises the people of palestine, who according to the un, have a right to exist aswell.


I didnt find my experience of living in a street with violent anti-semtes who knewabout my ethnic background quite so funny.

true i dont find my experience of racist abuse funny either, all i hear is paki this and go home you sand nigger. jews are oppressed but so are muslims, blacks and other minorities.


If you look at my argument i was making it explicitly clear that israel is a regime guilty of disgusting racial opprsession.

and so was nazi germany.

[LeonardoDaVinci]

Originally posted by Dhul [email protected] 14 2003, 01:07 PM
The bottom line is this: Why does ONE race get it&#39;s own ethnic state?

What would we say if Mugabe decided to take away passports of all white people? There was a big shitstorm when he took back the land their ancestors stole - how do you think the world would react to a "black homeland"?

Or what if Germany decided there was a need for a "white homeland" - and decided to eliminate all non-caucasians from their country? Oh, wait, that DID happen, didn&#39;t it?

A racial state is a disgusting Nazi-esque idea and I simply CANNOT understand why rational people support state-sponsored racial discrimination. By the same logic we should all aplaud Mugabe - and encourage him to get rid of the rest of the whites. We should be supportive of Hitlers idea of a jew-free Germany - because we have shown support for the idea of a homogenous country full of people from ONE race.

It makes me sick to think about the logic of jews getting their own state - what about black people and the Chinese and other cultures around the world that have been discriminated against and actually SLAUGHTERED in far greater numbers than jews? Do they not deserve a racially pure homeland? Should they not keep all non-ethnically pure people out of their country? Why should anyone be allowed to get a passport without being able to prove his exact ethnic background? By this logic - any form of institutional discrimination based on race is acceptable as long as it serves to correct some historical wrongs. Then let&#39;s extend it to all races - shall we?

Either you support the idea of legally enforced racial purity or you do not support the state of Israel to exist in it&#39;s current form. The third option is one of hypocracy - basically claiming that jews have a higher right to existance than any other race on the planet.

Nobody "deserves" an ethnically pure country - because no good can come of it for anyone&#33; If the Germans didn&#39;t "deserve" an ethnically pure homeland - and if they were wrong to pursue that ideal - then Israel has no right to do it either.

--- G.
Very good post Dhul Fiqar. The simple fact of the matter is that the state of Israel was based on terrorism and discrimination against the Arab inhabitants of the land of Palestine and it still is.

One thing that all jews would do well to remember is that this whole mess first was first started by the europeans who oppressed them and expelled them from their lands. They were expelled from Vienna and Linz in 1421, from Cologne in 1424, from Bavaria in 1442, Italy (1485-1489), Spain (1492), Moscow (1891), Paris (1895), Kishinev (1905) and the list goes on and on.And yet of you study the history of Europe you will find that the only place where they co-existed peacefully with the inhabitants was Al-Andalus (or Sefarad as the jews called it). The Spanish reconquista of the old Muslim territories of Spain was a catastrophe for the jews of Iberia. In the Islamic state, the three religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam had been able to live together in relative harmony for over 600 years. The jews in particular had enjoyed a cultural and spiritual renaissance in Spain, and they were not subject to the pogroms that were the lot of the jewish people of the rest of Europe. But as the Christian armies of Ferdinand and Isabella gradually advanced through the peninsula, conquering more and more territory from Islam, they brought their anti-Semitism with them. In 1378 and 1391, Jewish communities in both Aragon and Castile were attacked by Christians, who dragged jews to the baptismal fonts and forced them on the pain of death, to convert to Christianity. Most of the Sephardic Jews (the jews of Al-Andalus) took refuge in the North African and Balkan provinces of the Ottoman Empire. They were used to Muslim society and for many of them this was the only viable option.

You see, historically speaking, Jews ad Arabs were not always the eternal enemies that many today would have us believe. It is only after the europeans started to feel guilty about their &#39;mistreatment&#39; of the jewish people that the British decided to issue the Balfour Declaration(1917), pledging its support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine (one of its numerous colonies). Finally, the Jews had the chance to break free and form their own theocratic, Torah based State. Of course, there was a slight glitch, as this &#39;Land without a people for a people without a land&#39; had in fact a long established indiginous Arab population. This insignificant fact of course did not matter much to the zionists settlers who began to adopt the very same methods used by the European to expel the jews and began their own &#39;terror campaigns&#39; against the indiginous Palestinians. The zionists, with the backing of the world&#39;s superpowers knew that they could strike Palestinian villages with impunity and thus many hapless Palestinians were forced to flee their homeland in order to survive. Of course, one must mention that the demagogues who initiated these &#39;hate campaigns&#39; against the Arab population later became heroic symbols of zionism and great leaders of the &#39;democratic&#39; state of Israel, those include David Ben Gurion and Yitzak Shamir to name but a few. Those &#39;heroic&#39; murderers were followed by a long list of worthy &#39;heroes&#39; such as Eihud Barak and the &#39;notorious&#39; Ariel Sharon who are still carrying on in the long tradition of &#39;co-operation&#39; and &#39;co-existence&#39;with the Palestinians. This of course, will continue until there are no more Palestinians to &#39;co-exist&#39; with.

[BuyOurEverything]

the jewish people now do have a homeland and have had so for a long time. the fact is that israel is a terrorist state. it terrorises the people of palestine, who according to the un, have a right to exist aswell.

Terrorist is a stupid word, I don&#39;t use it. I don&#39;t think anyone here has denied the Palestinians&#39; right to have a country as well, so I don&#39;t know why you&#39;re arguing that. Do you believe that the country of Israel has the right to exist?


true i dont find my experience of racist abuse funny either, all i hear is paki this and go home you sand nigger. jews are oppressed but so are muslims, blacks and other minorities.

Of course, which is why I find it so strange that you oppose a Jewish country when you, I would imagine, support black and Muslim countries.


and so was nazi germany.

And so is basically every country in existence.

[Intifada]

Terrorist is a stupid word, I don&#39;t use it. I don&#39;t think anyone here has denied the Palestinians&#39; right to have a country as well, so I don&#39;t know why you&#39;re arguing that. Do you believe that the country of Israel has the right to exist?

israel is a terrorist state, i dont care if you dont like the word.

i believe that israel does not have the right to build illegal settlements. i do not believe that israel has the right to kill and target innocent civilians. i do not believe that israel has the right to demolish palestinian homes. i do not believe that israel has the right to occupy palestinian land. i do not believe that israel has the right to control the palestinian water and electricity supply.

zionism is a thing of the past. israel has a state now and they should withdraw from all palestinian land.


Of course, which is why I find it so strange that you oppose a Jewish country when you, I would imagine, support black and Muslim countries.

i do not support all muslim and black countries, for example pakistan, which persecutes ahmadi muslims (like me). i did not support saddam&#39;s iraq. i do not support saudi arabia. i did not support the taliban. i can go on for ages.


QUOTE
and so was nazi germany.


And so is basically every country in existence.

not all countries are as racist as nazi germany was, however as i have said before, israel is taking a leaf out of the nazi&#39;s book.

[BuyOurEverything]

israel is a terrorist state, i dont care if you dont like the word.

The reason I don&#39;t use the word terrorist is because it is so incredibly vauge that it really has no meaning and is used by pretty much everyone to denounce their enemy. Terrorism is inflicting terror. Not only is all warfare and all fighting terrorism, but going up to some kid and saying "I&#39;m gonna kick your ass" is terrorism. Saying that drugs can kill you is terrorism. Telling people to use a condom because they could get AIDS if they don&#39;t is terrorism.


i believe that israel does not have the right to build illegal settlements. i do not believe that israel has the right to kill and target innocent civilians. i do not believe that israel has the right to demolish palestinian homes. i do not believe that israel has the right to occupy palestinian land. i do not believe that israel has the right to control the palestinian water and electricity supply.

Neither I, nor I believe anyone else here supports any of these things. That wasn&#39;t my question. My question was simple: do you support Israel&#39;s right to exist?


i do not support all muslim and black countries, for example pakistan, which persecutes ahmadi muslims (like me). i did not support saddam&#39;s iraq. i do not support saudi arabia. i did not support the taliban. i can go on for ages.

But surely you support the right for these countries to exist, correct?


not all countries are as racist as nazi germany was, however as i have said before, israel is taking a leaf out of the nazi&#39;s book.

Most Israelis do not want to destroy the Palestinians or create a supreme pure Jewish race. A few, but far from most. Also in Nazi Gernany, before the holocaust, Jews were not blowing up German civilians.

[Intifada]

terrorism is using organised violence in order to secure political ends.

israel is a terrorist state.

i think the jews and all other people have the right to self-determination. but i wouldnt call myself a zionist.


Most Israelis do not want to destroy the Palestinians or create a supreme pure Jewish race. A few, but far from most.

most brits didnt want to send troops to iraq, but governments nowadays dont speak for the people, or give a shit about them either.

[BuyOurEverything]

terrorism is using organised violence in order to secure political ends.

Are you a pacifist? Because by this definition, all warfare, including people&#39;s revolutions are terrorism.


israel is a terrorist state.

As is every single other country in existance.


most brits didnt want to send troops to iraq, but governments nowadays dont speak for the people, or give a shit about them either.

There are far more British that supported the war in Iraq than there are Jews that support genocide. To compare the two is ridiculous and misleading. Also, it is true that governments don&#39;t speak for the people but I think i missed your point.

[Intifada]

Are you a pacifist?

i am opposed to all war. (it wasnt my definition it was the dictionary&#39;s)


QUOTE
israel is a terrorist state.


As is every single other country in existance.

i would say that all governments are either terrorist or corrupt, or both.

i believe that zionism is anti-semitism.


When Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern political Zionism, served in Paris as a correspondent for a Vienna newspaper, he was in close contact with the leading anti-Semites of the day. In his biography of Herzl, The Labyrinth of Exile, Ernst Pawel reports that those who financed and edited La Libre Parole, a weekly dedicated "to the defense of Catholic France against atheists, republicans, Free Masons and Jews," invited Herzl to their homes on a regular basis.

Alluding to such conservatives and their publications, Pawel writes that Herzl "found himself captivated" by these men and their ideas: "La France Juive struck him as a brilliant performance and--much like Duhring&#39;s notorious Jewish Question 10 years later--it aroused powerful and contradictory emotions...On June 12, 1895, while in the midst of working on Der Judenstaat, [Herzl] noted in his diary , &#39;much of my current conceptual freedom I owe to [Edouard] Drumont, because he is an artist.&#39; The compliment seems extravagant, but Drumont repaid it the following year with a glowing review of Herzl&#39;s book La Parole Libre."

In the end, Pawel argues, "Paris changed Herzl, and French anti-Semites undermined the ironic complacency of the Jewish would-be non-Jew." Yet Herzl was not entirely displeased with anti Semitism. In a private letter to Moritz Benedikt, written in the final days of 1892, he writes: "I do not consider the anti-Semitic movement altogether harmful. It will inhibit the ostentatious flaunting of conspicuous wealth, curb the unscrupulous behavior of Jewish financiers, and contribute in many ways to the education of the Jews...In that respect we seem to be in agreement."

[Totalitarian]

ihatebush:

"i think the jews and all other people have the right to self-determination"

Including whites?

[flayer2]

Tot,

what is it with you and your obsession with whites. White ruled governments practically dominate the world right now.

The Israelis and palestinians have to live together in one state I agree. There can never be real peace unless this happens.

[Intifada]

flayer raises a good point.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 08:40 PM

same can be said for the palestinians

no it cant

the palestinians are just fighting back against israeli aggression.
Through out reading this thread I have seen some shocking over simplification, but that post takes the biscuit...

Would it shock you to know that Trans-Jordan AKA Jordan is also Palistinian land, as much as Israel? Would it shock you to know that the day that Israel was created (rightfuly or wrongfuly) half the Arab world declared war on her? So is it really shocking that Israel isn&#39;t exactly trusting anymore? Of course what they do is completely unjustifiable, but then again the actions of the Palistinian terrorists isnt either, nor is the actions of the other surrounding Arab nations.

terrorism is using organised violence in order to secure political ends.

Then all war is terrorism then, so its still a stupid term to use.

i believe that zionism is anti-semitism.

WTF???????

i believe that israel does not have the right to build illegal settlements.

Not that I agree with the building of these settlements, but the land in question was taken in a war started by the surrounding Arab nation, it is nearly all of stratigic value, to a group of nations who would all attach Israel given the chanse, so I think that you are a little unfair to the Israeli&#39;s.

i do not believe that israel has the right to kill and target innocent civilians.

Neither do the palistinian suicide bombers, well youve already proved your a hypocrit in another thread but that takes the buiscit.

i do not believe that israel has the right to occupy palestinian land.

Do you think the same of Jordan?

I could go on and on, but I think I&#39;ve made my point. You cant just condem Israel, it is deffinatly a complex situation in which both groups are equily to blame.


BTW I support a joint Palistinian Israel state, with equil rights etc.

[Pete]

Enigma, remember that Jordan cedded its rights to Trans-Jordan to either the Palestinian Authority or the PLO or something of that sort.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2003, 07:31 PM
Enigma, remember that Jordan cedded its rights to Trans-Jordan to either the Palestinian Authority or the PLO or something of that sort.
I would not know I Havent read that much into this topic, but I have read enough to spot some of the blatant bias and hypocracy in this thread.

But if you could provide a link for me I would be greatful.

[Totalitarian]

what is it with you and your obsession with whites. White ruled governments practically dominate the world right now.

That&#39;s true, however they are capitalists with no loyalty except to &#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;.

[flayer2]

Would it shock you to know that Trans-Jordan AKA Jordan is also Palistinian land, as much as Israel? Would it shock you to know that the day that Israel was created (rightfuly or wrongfuly) half the Arab world declared war on her? So is it really shocking that Israel isn&#39;t exactly trusting anymore? Of course what they do is completely unjustifiable, but then again the actions of the Palistinian terrorists isnt either, nor is the actions of the other surrounding Arab nations.

The arab nations consider Israel to be arab land. Thats why they refer to it as occupied palestine not as israel. Although the dictatorships of Jordan and Egypt have recognised the state of Israel this was done from a position of weakness and western bribes rather than real acceptance of the jewish state. I think you will find that most of the arab population consider its leaders to be puppets of the west. The palestinians are being oppressed. Hardly anyone denys this. Oppressed groups always have the right to fight back against their oppressors.


Not that I agree with the building of these settlements, but the land in question was taken in a war started by the surrounding Arab nation, it is nearly all of stratigic value, to a group of nations who would all attach Israel given the chanse, so I think that you are a little unfair to the Israeli&#39;s.

Security of Israel has nothing to do with the settlements.


i do not believe that israel has the right to occupy palestinian land.

Do you think the same of Jordan?

I could go on and on, but I think I&#39;ve made my point. You cant just condem Israel, it is deffinatly a complex situation in which both groups are equily to blame.

No, any dispute between Jordan and the Palestinians are inter-arab affairs.


BTW I support a joint Palistinian Israel state, with equil rights etc.

Agreed , but considering it is sitting in the heart of arab lands, it must become part of the arab world if there is to be real peace.

Right now the state of Israel is artificial because it owes its existence to the financial and diplomatic aid of the west so it can maintain its military superiority over the arabs. Do you support the continueing of this aid?

[Guest1]

well, I&#39;m sorry Reuben that I haven&#39;t had the time to read and post here recently. my mother passed away this weekend. but, since she was Palestinian and was involved in alot of action when she was my age, I think it&#39;s appropriate to post here today.

this entire thread fills me with disgust.

at first, it was denying Palestinians exist. They aren&#39;t a people. Then saying Jews aren&#39;t oppressed?

It could be argued that just as a decade ago, when supporters of south african apartheid right-wingers were the majority in western governments, they are the majority today for israeli apartheid.

but that has nothing to do with oppression of Jews. To deny their oppression, as with many other minorties in this world filled with hatred, is to deny a murder you witness.

furthermore, as a Palestinian, you do my people no justice in fighting racism with racism. or belittling a people&#39;s suffering paid for with the lives of millions. that was a separate tragedy. Palestinians are not so arrogant to say this is a holocaust.

and reuben, baathists are not all sadamists. syria&#39;s baath party is much better and cleaner. also much more leftist. or it used to be. they are guilty of some major slaughter back in the 70&#39;s, but never of anything racial (it was a war with islamists). but right now while they are becoming just a state capitalist party, they&#39;re pretty progressive in middle eastern terms... even if that&#39;s not saying much.

as for buyoureverything. I thought I addressed your comment about reserves. By the time the racists had given native citizenships in those nations, they had been reduced to less than 5% of the population. Here, the Palestinian people still have hope cause they would represent 50% of the population of a united nation in the middle east.

but they would have to act fast. before the colonization is completed.

[Kapitan Andrey]

Have you heard about what happened in tUrkey&#33;?

Near to 23 jews died in terracts&#33;...nobody loves jews...

[Guest1]

wow... you didn&#39;t read my post, did you?

go fuck yourself.

[Kapitan Andrey]

ARE YOU TALKING TO ME&#33;? :huh: :angry:

[General A.A.Vlasov]

I&#39;m not against jews.

[BuyOurEverything]

No, any dispute between Jordan and the Palestinians are inter-arab affairs.

What the fuck is that supposed to mean?


as for buyoureverything. I thought I addressed your comment about reserves. By the time the racists had given native citizenships in those nations, they had been reduced to less than 5% of the population. Here, the Palestinian people still have hope cause they would represent 50% of the population of a united nation in the middle east.

but they would have to act fast. before the colonization is completed.

I suppose it would be different however, there is a huge danger in just combining the two states. Even if there is about equal amount of Israelis and Palestinians, the Israelis have the automatic advantage of having a majority of the wealth and would be in a position to do a lot of oppressing, especially given the racism that many Israelis have for Palestinians.

[flayer2]

No, any dispute between Jordan and the Palestinians are inter-arab affairs.
What the fuck is that supposed to mean?

Just like it sez... If the arabs choose not to respect the borders set by the british then its not our place as westerners to interfere. I&#39;m sorry to any palestinian who may disagree , but this is the only position I can take as an anti-imperialist.

The israel/palestinian problem however is our creation and therefore our problem to solve...