Does anyone here know Bosnian?

[Yuppie Grinder]

If so, would you mind telling me what this bit means? I couldn't find a good translator online.
Ja neprejam satobom, jebe se

[Devrim]

If so, would you mind telling me what this bit means? I couldn't find a good translator online.
Ja neprejam satobom, jebe se

I don't, but the language of Bosnia is Serbo-Croat, not Bosnian, and there are a few speakers of it on here.

Devrim

[Yuppie Grinder]

I don't, but the language of Bosnia is Serbo-Croat, not Bosnian, and there are a few speakers of it on here.

Devrim
Alright. I thought the language of Bosnia was Bosnian because I here the language refered to by Bosnians as Bosnian. Who's here that know's Serbo-Croat?

[ВАЛТЕР]

I can speak it and read it. I am a Bosnian.

Kontra can also help, Yugo45, Bandito, and Khlib to an extent (she is an American who studies the Balkans) as well several others.

What do you need help with?

[Искра]

I can help. I'm from Croatia and I know Croatian :lol:

[Revolutionair]

What do you need help with?
If so, would you mind telling me what this bit means? I couldn't find a good translator online.
Ja neprejam satobom, jebe se
a

[tir1944]

Ja neprejam satobom, jebe se
This is written by someone who doesn't really know Serbocroatian(or Bosnian if you like).
It should be :"Ja ne pričam s tobom,jebi se" meaning something like "I don't (want to) talk to you,fuck off.

[Искра]

That is not "Bosnian" (Croato-Serbian)
It sounds like Slovenian, and it that case it means: I didn't get it with you, fuck you
But it dosen't make sense. It look like someone used google translator :D

[Bandito]

Yeah, somebody doesn't like you.

Also,


I don't, but the language of Bosnia is Serbo-Croat, not Bosnian, and there are a few speakers of it on here.

Devrim

It's now called Bosnian. Invention of languages to suit national interests of young countries. Serbian is called Serbian, Croatian is now Croatian, Bosnian is now Bosnian, and even Montenegro folks seem to be talking Montenigrin now, and don't mind the fact that they are less different between British and American English.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Yeah, somebody doesn't like you.

Also,



It's now called Bosnian. Invention of languages to suit national interests of young countries. Serbian is called Serbian, Croatian is now Croatian, Bosnian is now Bosnian, and even Montenegro folks seem to be talking Montenigrin now, and don't mind the fact that they are less different between British and American English.

Reminds me of the Nadrealisti Sketch "Jezici" :laugh: funny but sad :crying:



Ja neprejam satobom, jebe se

Someone is either A) illiterate B) Not a native Speaker or C) Speaking another language.

Either way that last part "jebe se" is telling you to "fuck yourself." Although incorrectly.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Ha this guy's native language is Bosnian. This is pretty funny in context.

[khlib]

It's now called Bosnian. Invention of languages to suit national interests of young countries.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!? Bosnian is COMPLETELY different than Serbian and Croatian! For instance, in Bosnia, they have kahva, not kava or kafa. And they say, "ja čitam" not "ja čitam" or "ja čitam."

[Vanguard1917]

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!? Bosnian is COMPLETELY different than Serbian and Croatian! For instance, in Bosnia, they have kahva, not kava or kafa. And they say, "ja čitam" not "ja čitam" or "ja čitam."

Indeed. Such fundamental dissimilarities also exist between north and south London English.

[Искра]

Indeed. Such fundamental dissimilarities also exist between north and south London English.
Still, there are differencese in gramathics between Croatian and Serbia. They are small but they exist. I have no problem with people who claim that it's the same language or that these are seprate languages. As long as people can understand each other I don't give a fuck. Only problem with language is that it is right hand of nationalism and we all know the rest of the story.

Aslo, I don't like when people claim that Serbian, Montenegrian, Croatian and Bosnian are same language, but in the same time they actually promote Serbian nationalism and Serbian language dominance.

[khlib]

Still, there are differencese in gramathics between Croatian and Serbia. They are small but they exist. I have no problem with people who claim that it's the same language or that these are seprate languages. As long as people can understand each other I don't give a fuck.

If you argue that Serbian and Croatian are separate languages, however, you'd have to also argue that the different dialects of Croatian are separate languages because much greater grammatical and vocab differences exist between kajkavian, cakavian, and stokavian than exist between the Eastern and Western variants of stokavian (ijekavian and ekavian).

[Искра]

I'm talking about "the offical language". There are gramathical diferences between Croatian and Serbian. I'm not just talking about "ije"/"je" vs. "e", but also about infinitive, about Serbian "da" construction etc.

Dialects are different things.

Also, a lot of Croatian people, me including, use Serbian phrases and words etc. Still, that doesn't mean that Serbian and Croatian are "same". That just means that we live near to each other and that there's some kind of interaction etc.

I don't see what is problem with being different, even if differences are small.

All this "it's all the same" is nothing but Yugoslav bullshit. It's an ideological construction which aims to create Yugoslav nation and I refuse that as much as I refuse every other nationalism ;)

[khlib]

I don't see what is problem with being different, even if differences are small.

All this "it's all the same" is nothing but Yugoslav bullshit. It's an ideological construction which aims to create Yugoslav nation and I refuse that as much as I refuse every other nationalism ;)

It's fine to be different and speak the way you were raised. The problem is when people try to purge the standard Croatian language of "Serbisms," when people compile differential dictionaries of Croatian-Serbian (in an attempt for prescription, not description, mind you), when Tudjman gets blasted in the media for using the "Serbian" form of "happy" (srecan instead of sretan).

This attitude of "all being the same" when it comes to questions of language does not even originate from the Yugoslav national ideology. South-Slavic reciprocity has roots as far back as with Pribojevic, Krizanic, and Vitezovic (all of these men claimed that Serbs and Croats spoke a single language), so your statement is rather ahistorical. Those men lived before the rise of nationalism in the Balkans...

[Искра]

I think that it's really big problem when somebody doesn’t agree with this quasi-left “it’s all the same” rhetoric that he/she's always labelled as „nationalist“ or discussion begins to go in that way. I’m talking here about your jump towards “Croatian purging of language” argument, just because it says that I’m from Croatia. So, before I answer to what you wrote, I’ll like to say that I’m not a Croat (I’m of folksdeutcher origin, but I say that I’m apatrid/stateless), so these rhetorical games do not work the way that “left” is used to. I feel no “guilt” what so ever. The fact that Croatian and Serbian are not same and that there are grammatical and lexical differences has nothing to do with “Croatian purging of language” or with lexical acrobations from 1942. After all ex-Yugoslav languages made quite big “purging”, so it’s illiterate to just talk about “Croatian purging”.

Since, you said that my statement is “ahistorical” just because three intellectuals from past said so? Ok, I think that you need a lesson on nationalism and Western Balkans, because people who are you mentioning had certain political agenda. 19th century Croatian intelligentsia wanted to create its own country, firstly as a part of A-U “confederation”, and later as independent state or state which would merge with Kingdom of Serbia. Croatian nationalists saw better change to achieve it all together with other South Slavs from A-U and that is only reason why did idea of Yugoslav nationalism started. You can call it Yugoslav nationalism or Illyrian movement – political agenda is the same. Because of that political agenda national elites started to apprehend a vocabulary of all languages. Why did they do that? Because of such big love towards their “brothers”? No, because of political reasons.

“Purging of language” has also political reasons – because national elites now wanted to separate as much as possible. Croatians were the most extreme, because of the fact that Serbocroatian language of Yugoslavia was more Serbian oriented in questions of grammaticism etc.

As I said in my first post on this topic, I don’t care how do people talk and how do they call their language. Only thing I don’t like is when people talk about “Yugoslav identity” as something progressive, forgetting how it is nothing but another nationalism which aims to create another national state. Especially, it’s problematic when it disguises certain nations imperialistic tendencies.

[khlib]

I think that it's really big problem when somebody doesn’t agree with this quasi-left “it’s all the same” rhetoric that he/she's always labelled as „nationalist“ or discussion begins to go in that way. I’m talking here about your jump towards “Croatian purging of language” argument, just because it says that I’m from Croatia.
That's not why I made that argument... I said that because language is not as tied to Serbian national identity as it is to Croatian national identity. Of course there is a linguistic element to Serbian nationalism (you can see in the SANU memorandum that certain Serbian nationalists were complaining that Croatian Serbs could not use Cyrillic, etc.), but historically it has been more of a Croatian obsession. "Croatian," or the Western variant of Serbo-Croatian, has a long history of purism, rejecting internationalisms that are permitted in Serbian, and now with "novi hrvatski" coming up with new words to replace well established words because they sound too "Serbian." When Matica hrvatska and Matica srpska decided to both publish dictionaries of their own variant of the language (Croato-Serbian and Serbo-Croatian, respectively), Matica hrvatska dropped out after only publishing one volume because they were not content being considered one variant of a joint language. The Croatian Spring (a Croatian nationalist movement) was centered around questions of language. All of the differential dictionaries that I have looked at were published in Croatia after the fall of YU. I brought up examples of Croatian nationalism in language simply because there are more of them, but I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything. Please don't take it so personally.


The fact that Croatian and Serbian are not same and that there are grammatical and lexical differences has nothing to do with “Croatian purging of language” or with lexical acrobations from 1942.
Actually, I have read several linguistic papers proving the fact that grammatical differences between Croatian and Serbian are mostly a result of Croatians trying to avoid Serbian-sounding constructions. The word "da" began to be associated with Serbian and Orthodoxy over the course of many years, so the avoidance of "da" led to Croats to say present tense verb + infinitive (instead of present tense verb + da + present tense verb) and verb + li (instead of da li). I can look up sources later if you'd like.
The fact of the matter is that standard languages are constructions that reflect political goals. With the Illyrian movement and certain conceptions of South Slavic reciprocity during the 19th century, Serbian and Croatian had become very similar, and this was done to encourage cooperation between the South Slavs, but now they are being forcefully pulled apart thanks to purposeful nationalistic language policies. You can say that Yugoslav and Croatian nationalistic linguistic policies are both the same and both just as bad, but I disagree. I would much rather have a Yugoslav nationalist policy that encouraged all South Slavs to get along, to be able to communicate with one another, to see each other as brothers, rather than Croatian or Serbian nationalist policies that emphasize differences and try to construct artificial barriers between people to prevent communication. Croatian schoolchildren aren't even being taught Cyrillic anymore. The next generation of Croats will not be able to read Serbian books written in Cyrillic.


After all ex-Yugoslav languages made quite big “purging”, so it’s illiterate to just talk about “Croatian purging”.
Croatian is a more puristic language than Serbian, so naturally it purged more words. I have sources if you want.


Since, you said that my statement is “ahistorical” just because three intellectuals from past said so? Ok, I think that you need a lesson on nationalism and Western Balkans, because people who are you mentioning had certain political agenda. 19th century Croatian intelligentsia wanted to create its own country,
The men I mentioned were from the 1600's and earlier...

[Bandito]

Yugoslavian example is the right pointer there.

I am advocating the fact that it is the same language, but in the same time, of course, I'm in disagreement with right-wingers claiming that all languages spoken in ex-Yu territory derive from Serbian. Of course they don't.

Slavs from all over Europe developed their own languages, but the fact that all ex-Yugoslavian languages are so similar (same) is due to the fact that that not only territory, but also social background and class were something that connected us enough to develop a lingo that we can all understand. That was before religion divided Southern Slavs, and a fact that we, as leftists need to point out every time, and not fall into quasi-intellectual nationalist agenda thrown at us.

[khlib]

You're absolutely right, Bandito. The real reason they are so similar today is the fact that in the 19th century, the linguistic policies of Vuk Karadzic and Ljudevit Gaj happened to overlap. Karadzic decided that a Herzegovinian peasant dialect (ijekavian stokavian) was best for the standard language of Serbia, and Gaj decided that the Dubrovnik Renaissance dialect was best for Illyria (ijekavian stokavian). Luckily, they chose the same dialect, which led to the signing of the Vienna Agreement in 1850.

[Искра]

That's not why I made that argument... I said that because language is not as tied to Serbian national identity as it is to Croatian national identity.
It's not true. Difference is on political level, because Serbia was imperialist force, so they had more political power that Croats. Purging of language is kind of defensive nationalist reaction.


but historically it has been more of a Croatian obsession.
Only after 1942. I pointed ^ why.


"Croatian," or the Western variant of Serbo-Croatian, has a long history of purism, rejecting internationalisms that are permitted in Serbian, and now with "novi hrvatski" coming up with new words to replace well established words because they sound too "Serbian." When Matica hrvatska and Matica srpska decided to both publish dictionaries of their own variant of the language (Croato-Serbian and Serbo-Croatian, respectively), Matica hrvatska dropped out after only publishing one volume because they were not content being considered one variant of a joint language.
Croatians wanted their own national-state. To create national state you need nationalism – hence new language. It’s natural reaction of nationalist elites. Serbians didn’t have reason to do such stuff, because they had their own country and Serbocroatian which actually had more of Serbian than other languages. Also, you are ignoring other political and economical questions, especially in late days of Kingdom of Yugoslavia which resulted later in Croatian nationalism, fascism and Independent State of Croatia and its policy. Simmilar case was in 90's.


The Croatian Spring (a Croatian nationalist movement) was centered around questions of language.
No. It was around political and economical liberalisation.


Actually, I have read several linguistic papers proving the fact that grammatical differences between Croatian and Serbian are mostly a result of Croatians trying to avoid Serbian-sounding constructions.
That's not true. Differencese existed long time ago, from Gaj and Karadžić times. They shouldn't be confused with "purification" in 40's and 90's.


The word "da" began to be associated with Serbian and Orthodoxy over the course of many years, so the avoidance of "da" led to Croats to say present tense verb + infinitive (instead of present tense verb + da + present tense verb) and verb + li (instead of da li). I can look up sources later if you'd like.
You don't have to. I pretty much don't care about that. I'm talking about political differences etc. I personaly use "da" all the time.


The fact of the matter is that standard languages are constructions that reflect political goals. With the Illyrian movement and certain conceptions of South Slavic reciprocity during the 19th century, Serbian and Croatian had become very similar, and this was done to encourage cooperation between the South Slavs, but now they are being forcefully pulled apart thanks to purposeful nationalistic language policies. You can say that Yugoslav and Croatian nationalistic linguistic policies are both the same and both just as bad, but I disagree. I would much rather have a Yugoslav nationalist policy that encouraged all South Slavs to get along, to be able to communicate with one another, to see each other as brothers, rather than Croatian or Serbian nationalist policies that emphasize differences and try to construct artificial barriers between people to prevent communication.
I'm a communist. I'm against nations and national identeties. Proletariat should be united on class basis not on basis of some nation which even doesn't exist.


Croatian schoolchildren aren't even being taught Cyrillic anymore. The next generation of Croats will not be able to read Serbian books written in Cyrillic.
They can't do that from 90's and who cares? If you want to learn Cyrillc you can learn it in one day.


Croatian is a more puristic language than Serbian, so naturally it purged more words. I have sources if you want.
I explained why... 10 times :)


The men I mentioned were from the 1600's and earlier...
I know who were they. I study politics.

[ВАЛТЕР]

It's not true. Difference is on political level, because Serbia was imperialist force, so they had more political power that Croats. Purging of language is kind of defensive nationalist reaction.You mind explaining how Serbia was an imperialistic force? This is the second time I have seen you bring this up with no logical support. Serbs did not go about conquering anybody or imposing their will on sovereign nations. Stop trying to play the "Croats are victims of imperialism" card because they are not. The Serbian state has ALWAYS been the most anti-imperialistic state in the region. Stop talking bullshit and playing the "blame the Serbs for our problems" game it is getting old. Imperialism isn't a word to be thrown about like you like to do so often when Serbia is mentioned.

I have noticed you have disgusting phobia of Serbs for one reason or another. Maybe you are simply a Croat NazBol because that would explain your obsession with Croat nationalism. You are the ONLY one of ALL the Balkan members who brings up national identity and try to stir shit up. NONE of the other members from the Balkans makes a big deal out of language and this and that. Maybe we should open a new sub-forum called "Hrvatski" so you can understand it and have conversations with yourself about how great your language is.

This was a thread about helping somebody who didn't understand a sentence and you immediately turn it into some pro-Croat, anti-Serb thread about how the poor, poor Croats got their language destroyed. Khlib was making a joke from the sketch "Jezici" from the show "Top Lista Nadrealista" but maybe you haven't seen it, or maybe you have but don't understand it because it isn't in Croatian.

You know, and I know, and we all know that the languages are the same differences being about as different as American English and British English. You know damn well you can read whatever a Serb may write, and understand it fully, and a Serb can understand whatever you may write. ALWAYS you are bringing up nationality any chance you get to cause divide.

[Искра]

Have you ever heard of Kingdom of Serbia and its role in First World War? Balkan Wars? Do you know for 2 plans concerning South Slavic A-U lands? Do you know anything about politics of Nikola Pašić? Serbia was imperialist force on Balkans.

I don't care about emotions and hysterical accusations.

It's not my problem that you don't have a clue about history and politics. Politics on Balkan has never been "hippie circle of love and unity" you talk about.

And next time think twice before you call me Croatian nationalist or something simmilar. If you don't know me in personal don't go on personal level. It's not hard to grow up you know. For your infromation half of my family was killed in Jasenovac and my grandmother still has phobia. So, think twice before you say something stupid. For example - I have never said such things to you.

[khlib]

Have you ever heard of Kingdom of Serbia and its role in First World War?

I don't care about emotions. Go talk with your mother.

The thing is, we were talking about the purging of Serbisms from Croatian during the 1990's after the fall of Yugoslavia. It seemed you were suggesting that the republic of Serbia played an imperialistic role within the federation, with the other republics being colonies of some sort. This is simply untrue, and it is one of the main myths within modern Croatian nationalistic thought ("Croatia was finally freed from the Serb-run prison of nations that was trying to destroy their national identity," etc.). I think it's important as a communist to stop propagating these myths that have led to so much ethnic tension in the past. Tito, the leader of the SFRY, was Slovenian and Croatian. THe republic of Croatia got much more money than Serbia (which was supposedly "the center" in this imperialist reading?). It just doesn't fit the definition of imperialism, so let's not throw around such flaming language.

[tir1944]

I’ll like to say that I’m not a Croat (I’m of folksdeutcher origin, but I say that I’m apatrid/stateless)And yet your posts REEK of Croatian nationalism.
Let's remember that the founder of radical Croatian nationalism and the "ideological father" of the Ustashe movement was-a Jew.Josip Frank.Ethnicity doesn't matter...

[ВАЛТЕР]

Have you ever heard of Kingdom of Serbia and its role in First World War?

I don't care about emotions. Go talk with your mother.

Yes I have heard of that, it was called the Kingdom of Yugoslavia which wasn't established by force. Whatever they may have "taught" you in school.
If you are referring to the Kingdom of Serbia from the 14th century? Then yes it was imperialist in the "14TH FUCKING CENTURY".

Fucking Nationalist.

[tir1944]

Closet nationalists finally coming out of their closets...

[Искра]

The thing is, we were talking about the purging of Serbisms from Croatian during the 1990's after the fall of Yugoslavia. It seemed you were suggesting that the republic of Serbia played an imperialistic role within the federation, with the other republics being colonies of some sort. This is simply untrue, and it is one of the main myths within modern Croatian nationalistic thought ("Croatia was finally freed from the Serb-run prison of nations that was trying to destroy their national identity," etc.). I think it's important as a communist to stop propagating these myths that have led to so much ethnic tension in the past. Tito, the leader of the SFRY, was Slovenian and Croatian. THe republic of Croatia got much more money than Serbia (which was supposedly "the center" in this imperialist reading?). It just doesn't fit the definition of imperialism, so let's not throw around such flaming language.
I make very clear points.

I do claim that Serbia was imperialist force. It was during Balkan Wars, WW1 and during 90’s when they tried to take Bosnia, Kosovo etc. Whole concept of Great Serbia is nothing but imperialism. The fact that they don’t “like” USA doesn’t make them anti-imperialist, what so ever.

Also, I’m not denying Croatian nationalism or manifestations of fascism in 90’s. As communist I do not associate with it and your accusations are funny and childish. Also, I said that purging of Serbism in Croatian language was natural nationalistic reaction regarding political situation in 90’s. I never said that I approve that, quite contrary.

My position on spilt of Yugoslavia is very clear. I wrote few posts on that subject and you could read them. I don’t believe that I have to repeat myself because you have read them since you “thanked”.

“Money myth” is a myth. Croatia and Slovenia were more developed because they were in A-U which developed them. Myth that all money went to Croatia can be counterargument with myth that all money went to Serbia. I don’t care about nationalist myths, nor do I care about Titoist “milk and honey” myths. When I write about Yugoslavia I write things which are based on 2 years of research and really big list of literature.

[Искра]

Yes I have heard of that, it was called the Kingdom of Yugoslavia which wasn't established by force. Whatever they may have "taught" you in school.
If you are referring to the Kingdom of Serbia from the 14th century? Then yes it was imperialist in the "14TH FUCKING CENTURY".

Fucking Nationalist.
First, stop flaming. I refuse to be bullied.

Second, learn history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Serbia

Also, "force" question is not of my interest, but it would be really nice to hear your sources. I have read 5 history school books on that subject. One from todays Croatia and one from todays Serbia. Also, one from Kingdom of Yugoslavia, another from Independent State of Croatia and one from Yugoslavia. In "socialist" Yugoslavia's school book it says that it was forced. Who are you to talk against Tito's line? ;)

[khlib]

I do claim that Serbia was imperialist force. It was during Balkan Wars, WW1 and during 90’s when they tried to take Bosnia, Kosovo etc. Whole concept of Great Serbia is nothing but imperialism.

Would you also claim then that Croatia was an imperialist force?

We can see in the secret Tudjman tapes that were found after his death that Croatian and Serbian representatives met TOGETHER to come up with plans to divide up Bosnia. Also, if I remember correctly, Starcevic and others were proponents of a Greater Croatia (Velika Hrvatska) and this has remained a theme in many currents of Croatian nationalist thought.

[ВАЛТЕР]

I make very clear points.

I do claim that Serbia was imperialist force. It was during Balkan Wars,

Nope.


WW1Nope


and during 90’s when they tried to take Bosnia, Kosovo etc. Whole concept of Great Serbia is nothing but imperialism.
Nope

Greater Serbia is the concept that the Serbs should live in one country. Not steal land from another nation and put Serbs there or anything similar. The entire idea of "Greater Serbia" is simply that. "Serbs live in one nation" That is it. No conquering, taking of resources, etc.

[Искра]

Would you also claim then that Croatia was an imperialist force?
I agree, regarding ISC and Tudjman's "Bosnian excursion".

ВАЛТЕР you accuse me of "Croatian nationalism" while in the same time you are promoting extreme right wing Serbian politics.

Balkan Wars. Why did Second Balkan war started? What about division of Macedonia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_Wars#Second_Balkan_War

WW1. What about 2 ways for division of A-U south slavs lands? What about Serbia demanding whole theritory by right of conquest? I've read that in Čedomir Popović book... so, he's hardy a "Croat" ;)

I won't comment 90's... Obvious things are obvious.

[Искра]

And yet your posts REEK of Croatian nationalism.
Let's remember that the founder of radical Croatian nationalism and the "ideological father" of the Ustashe movement was-a Jew.Josip Frank.Ethnicity doesn't matter...
Josip Frank was not Ustasha. He didn't even want independent Croatia, but a Croatia as a part of A-U. He just rejected Yugoslav idea and asked help from Wienna. Read some books kid.

There's no Croatian nationalism in my posts. I'm just opposed to every nationalism - including Yugoslav one.

[tir1944]

Josip Frank was not Ustasha. He didn't even want independent Croatia, but a Croatia as a part of A-U. He just rejected Yugoslav idea and asked help from Wienna. Read some books kid.
Son, i know this.However he was still the ideological father of the movement,namely for his agressive anti-Serbian politics.
http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankovci


There's no Croatian nationalism in my posts.
OK,if you say so.People can judge for themselves though...

[khlib]

I agree, regarding ISC and Tudjman's "Bosnian excursion".

ВАЛТЕР you accuse me of "Croatian nationalism"...

I think the reason that you are coming across as a Croatian nationalist is because you say things like "Serbia is an imperialist force," which is lumping all Serbs together as Serbian nationalists, and not taking into account different states and rulers that the territory of modern day Serbia has existed under. On the other hand, when confronted with accusations of "Croatia being an imperialist force" you say, yes this one plan of Tudjman's was imperialist. Extreme Serbian nationalists who controlled the territory at one point or another are not representative of all Serbs any more than members of Al-Qaeda are representative of all Muslims. It just comes across as really ignorant and nationalistic to say things like that, like when Americans call all Muslims "terrorists."

[ВАЛТЕР]

ВАЛТЕР you accuse me of "Croatian nationalism" while in the same time you are promoting extreme right wing Serbian politics.



Where did I promote it? I just defined it correctly.

I am not a nationalist, I am in no position to be a nationalist as I come from a mixed family.

You however, are always baiting with implications and allegations against Serbs. Even on this thread where there was no reason to.

[tir1944]

I am not a nationalist, I am in no position to be a nationalist as I come from a mixed family.
Eh,that doesn't make sense.Some of the worst nationalists came from "mixed families".Just sayin'...

[ВАЛТЕР]

Eh,that doesn't make sense.Some of the worst nationalists came from "mixed families".Just sayin'...

Well take my word for it. :)

[tir1944]

I trust no one.:)

[Искра]

Son, i know this.However he was still the ideological father of the movement,namely for his agressive anti-Serbian politics.
http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankovci
Still, they have nothing to do with Ustasha movement. History of Party of Rights has allways been connetced with "anti-Serbian" politics. Except in Trubić case.


I think the reason that you are coming across as a Croatian nationalist is because you say things like "Serbia is an imperialist force," which is lumping all Serbs together as Serbian nationalists, and not taking into account different states and rulers that the territory of modern day Serbia has existed under.
When people say “America is imperialist force”, do they mean on every American worker? Of course they don’t. They mean on American political and economical elites. So, why is this case different? I was quite clear about question of Serbian imperialism and the fact that I’m talking about Kingdom of Serbia and Milošević’s Serbia. I mentioned for Balkan Wars and question of Macedonia where Serbs and Bulgarians fought around “whose Macedonians’ are”. I don’t have to talk about First World War and Pašić’s agreements with France and England about division of ex-A-U South Slavic lands. What’s that if not imperialism? Those lands were highly developed because they were industrialised by A-U government, which used Croat and Slovenian ports etc. Serbia was undeveloped semi-feudal Kingdom and it needed those lands to recover from First World War. There were 2 solutions to that problem: right by conquest or uniting State of Slovenians, Croats and Serbs with Kingdom of Serbia. Pašić and Serbian government were for first option because than that would be Great Serbia. Because of political power of Yugoslav Board in London option two was realised. It’s basic history and it’s even from “titoist” history books, something that all of you should know by heart. I don’t even wanna start about Serbian actions on Kosovo and Bosnia.


Where did I promote it? I just defined it correctly
By disputing imperialist character of Balkan Wars, First World War and post-WW1 division of Europe, by disputing War on Kosovo and in Bosnia. This is classical Serbian nationalist mythology. Same as when Croats talk about how they were repressed in Yugoslavia and killed on Goli Otok. You also dispute the project of Great Serbia as imperialist and you call it “peaceful unification of all Serbs”, which is criminal. If you don’t agree with me provide some evidences and sources. Act like a grown up and don't flame.

Also, it’s really interesting that, besides khilib, you people are just flaming. Short sentences full of accusations and personal attacks. If you don’t agree with me you can always discuss in polite manner, with sources etc. I still don’t see how m I a Croatian nationalist, when I’m even not a Croat, nor do I argue for Croatian nationalism... Also, I never broth “nation” in discussion, I just said that I’m against “Yugoslav nationalism” and I said that differences between Croatian and Serbian exist, because of various historical political alliances and hostilities – and then all this started.

Also, ВАЛТЕР why should I care about your families origin, when you have guts to call me over internet Croatian nationalist while half of my family was killed in Jasenovac? It’s really cool to be thought guy over Internet, but I would advise you to sit down and read some books about Yugoslavia and nationalism. You could learn something.

Also, this is my grandgrandgrandfather: http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sr%C4%91an_Budisavljevi%C4%87

[ВАЛТЕР]

Also, ВАЛТЕР why should I care about your families origin, when you have guts to call me over internet Croatian nationalist while half of my family was killed in Jasenovac?


Whyn should I give a shit about your origins if you OBVIOUSLY have some kind of hatred towards Serbs. As you bring it up in every thread even mentioning the Balkans, warranted or not. This thread was about answering a question someone had about a sentence that was written.


It’s really cool to be thought guy over Internet, but I would advise you to sit down and read some books about Yugoslavia and nationalism. You could learn something.



Just like being a nationalist is cool too. Over the internet, you can hide that way.


Also, this is my grandgrandgrandfather: http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sr%C4%91an_Budisavljevi%C4%87

Look up Sava Kovacevic and you will know about MY families roots. Because he was my greatgreatgrandfather. We are not debating family heritage and who was greater hero.

Accuse me of nationalism? You are here spouting nonsense ALL THE TIME.

NOBODY from the Balkan people here says ANYTHING about national identities except for YOU! My accusation of you being a NazBol at least is well founded.

[Искра]

Again, nothing but personal attacks. I wrote you which of your positions represent Serbian nationalist. I don’t have anything against Serbs, as I don't don't care about nations, but only about class. I never claimed such things. Only thing I claim is that Serbia was imperialist. If you feel different – prove it.

If you continue with such things I’ll ask administrators to intervene, because I won’t be bullied.

[khlib]

When people say “America is imperialist force”, do they mean on every American worker? Of course they don’t. They mean on American political and economical elites. So, why is this case different? I was quite clear about question of Serbian imperialism and the fact that I’m talking about Kingdom of Serbia and Milošević’s Serbia. I mentioned for Balkan Wars and question of Macedonia where Serbs and Bulgarians fought around “whose Macedonians’ are”. I don’t have to talk about First World War and Pašić’s agreements with France and England about division of ex-A-U South Slavic lands. What’s that if not imperialism? Those lands were highly developed because they were industrialised by A-U government, which used Croat and Slovenian ports etc. Serbia was undeveloped semi-feudal Kingdom and it needed those lands to recover from First World War. There were 2 solutions to that problem: right by conquest or uniting State of Slovenians, Croats and Serbs with Kingdom of Serbia. Pašić and Serbian government were for first option because than that would be Great Serbia. Because of political power of Yugoslav Board in London option two was realised. It’s basic history and it’s even from “titoist” history books, something that all of you should know by heart. I don’t even wanna start about Serbian actions on Kosovo and Bosnia.

That is because America's current policies ARE imperialistic, but Serbia's are not. America is currently engaged in wars in which it invaded foreign countries out of obvious geopolitical and economic self interest. You say "Serbia IS an imperialist force," yet all of the instances of imperialism that you mention have occurred in the past under different states and governments. We don't say "Germany is a Nazi force" because the Nazis once controlled their government, and we shouldn't say that "Serbia is imperialist" because of the Kingdom of Serbia (the other instances are more debatable, but we won't get into it here).

[Искра]

That is because America's current policies ARE imperialistic, but Serbia's are not. America is currently engaged in wars in which it invaded foreign countries out of obvious geopolitical and economic self interest. You say "Serbia IS an imperialist force," yet all of the instances of imperialism that you mention have occurred in the past under different states and governments. We don't say "Germany is a Nazi force" because the Nazis once controlled their government, and we shouldn't say that "Serbia is imperialist" because of the Kingdom of Serbia (the other instances are more debatable, but we won't get into it here).
Once again I was referring on policy of Kingdom of Serbia and on policy of Milošević’s Serbia. I pointed out that few times. If you didn’t get it from the first post, you could get it from others, so I don’t see what the point of this is? “We” say Germany is imperialist force and when we talk about Germany in 30’s and 40’s “we” talk about Nazi Germany. Do we consider every single German a Nazi? No.

[Искра]

As a matter of fact, here's my quote:


It's not true. Difference is on political level, because Serbia was imperialist force, so they had more political power that Croats. Purging of language is kind of defensive nationalist reaction.
Refering to 90's, but also to 20's.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Again, nothing but personal attacks. I wrote you which of your positions represent Serbian nationalist. I don’t have anything against Serbs, as I don't don't care about nations, but only about class. I never claimed such things. Only thing I claim is that Serbia was imperialist. If you feel different – prove it.
.

Prove it? Look at history. Serbia was always on the defense form imperialist nations. The kingdom of Yugoslavia was established peacefully with the other nations in it. Kosovo was a war for land where Serbs lived, as was in Bosnia, and Croatia. The Serbs in those areas wanted to live in one state, just like the Croats wanted a state, and the Bosnian Muslims wanted a state. Which is all fine and good. It does not constitute imperialism if you are fighting for land that is your own, where your own people live.

Personal attacks? I am accusing you of being a nationalist. For someone who "doesn't care about nations" you sure seem to have a lot of angst against Serbia in particular. Is this what they teach you in the army? Serbs are responsible for all for your problems? Croatian language is because of Evil Serb Imperialism?

You haven't given me a single reason as to believe you when you say that you are not a nationalist. Even Tir1944 agrees with me and he is a Croat, as does Khlib. So this isn't a "bad Serb" attacking the Croat. It is the group accusing you and placing evidence on the table.

Your Anti-Serb sentiments are obvious. You throw underhanded remarks against Serbs often in any thread you can correlate them to. I ignore some, but I won't ignore this.



If you continue with such things I’ll ask administrators to intervene, because I won’t be bulliedWhat a sorry way out. You're being bullied? However you can sit here and spit on a nation of people all you want? No, you are not being bullied you are being accused. I said you were a nationalist, because your posts only point to that. I am not pulling accusations out of the air, I am gathering them from your own statement.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings. However that is the nature of this accusation. People's feelings get hurt, nobody is here to hold your hand over it. YOU dug yourself into this hole, you dig yourself out. You are not being bullied. You brought this on yourself with your constant attacks on Serbs.

[khlib]

It's not true. Difference is on political level, because Serbia was imperialist force, so they had more political power that Croats. Purging of language is kind of defensive nationalist reaction.

This seems like you are talking about Titoist Yugoslavia, though, because how could Serbia have more political power than Croatia if they were not part of the same state? And, if you are referring to the SFRY, as I said before, the republic of Serbia was NOT imperialistic within the federation, and in fact, it had less political power because within it were two autonomous territories: Vojvodina and Kosovo.

Hopefully it's just a misunderstanding...

[Искра]

Prove it? Look at history. Serbia was always on the defense form imperialist nations. The kingdom of Yugoslavia was established peacefully with the other nations in it. Kosovo was a war for land where Serbs lived, as was in Bosnia, and Croatia. The Serbs in those areas wanted to live in one state, just like the Croats wanted a state, and the Bosnian Muslims wanted a state. Which is all fine and good. It does not constitute imperialism if you are fighting for land that is your own, where your own people live.
I looked to history and I gave you examples which you haven’t commented. Examples which were taken from Yugoslav “Titoist” school books and history books, considering that you are a Titoist. Start by answering to: how come that post-WW1 action of Serbian government is not imperialist?

Also your “history of defensive wars” statement reminds me of one song (http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko_to_ka%C5%BEe,_Srbija_je_mala).


Personal attacks? I am accusing you of being a nationalist. For someone who "doesn't care about nations" you sure seem to have a lot of angst against Serbia in particular. Is this what they teach you in the army? Serbs are responsible for all for your problems? Croatian language is because of Evil Serb Imperialism? You attack me without argument and you keep continuing with personal attacks without actually trying to debate certain political positions.
Also, regarding “language” issue, I was explaining political reasons for purification of language. I didn’t promote them, or anything similar. If you are not capable to read, don’t post.


You haven't given me a single reason as to believe you when you say that you are not a nationalist. Even Tir1944 agrees with me and he is a Croat, as does Khlib. So this isn't a "bad Serb" attacking the Croat. It is the group accusing you and placing evidence on the table. I’m not referring to you as a Serb, but as a revleft user. Also, I come to you with arguments and I don’t disrespect you in anyway. Also, I don’t piss on graves of your family nor make personal attacks which could cause you harm in anyway. If I did I’m sorry. I’m trying to maintain this discussion civil as possible. I don’t care if Tir1944 is a Croat or what kind of nationality is khilib. I’m answering on their arguments and, in case of Tir, flames.

Your Anti-Serb sentiments are obvious. You throw underhanded remarks against Serbs often in any thread you can correlate them to. I ignore some, but I won't ignore this.
Prove them or stop flaming ;)


What a sorry way out. You're being bullied? However you can sit here and spit on a nation of people all you want? No, you are not being bullied you are being accused. I said you were a nationalist, because your posts only point to that. I am not pulling accusations out of the air, I am gathering them from your own statement. You are bullying me with your irrational personal attacks which offend me greatly on personal level. Also, you are not even trying to answer on my posts.


Sorry if I hurt your feelings. However that is the nature of this accusation. People's feelings get hurt, nobody is here to hold your hand over it. YOU dug yourself into this hole, you dig yourself out. You are not being bullied. You brought this on yourself with your constant attacks on Serbs.Again, I don't do "constant attacks on Serbs". I was clear on this subject, now if you don't have profs or something counter-argumets - drop it.

[Искра]

This seems like you are talking about Titoist Yugoslavia, though, because how could Serbia have more political power than Croatia if they were not part of the same state? And, if you are referring to the SFRY, as I said before, the republic of Serbia was NOT imperialistic within the federation, and in fact, it had less political power because within it were two autonomous territories: Vojvodina and Kosovo.
You could read my posts about Yugoslavia. I disputed such claims with my first post. Also, how could Croats start purifying their language in Yugoslavia? They did that in 90's, so I don't see how could you see other.

[Sasha]

You mind explaining how Serbia was an imperialistic force? This is the second time I have seen you bring this up with no logical support. Serbs did not go about conquering anybody or imposing their will on sovereign nations. Stop trying to play the "Croats are victims of imperialism" card because they are not. The Serbian state has ALWAYS been the most anti-imperialistic state in the region. Stop talking bullshit and playing the "blame the Serbs for our problems" game it is getting old. Imperialism isn't a word to be thrown about like you like to do so often when Serbia is mentioned.

I have noticed you have disgusting phobia of Serbs for one reason or another. Maybe you are simply a Croat NazBol because that would explain your obsession with Croat nationalism. You are the ONLY one of ALL the Balkan members who brings up national identity and try to stir shit up. NONE of the other members from the Balkans makes a big deal out of language and this and that. Maybe we should open a new sub-forum called "Hrvatski" so you can understand it and have conversations with yourself about how great your language is.

This was a thread about helping somebody who didn't understand a sentence and you immediately turn it into some pro-Croat, anti-Serb thread about how the poor, poor Croats got their language destroyed. Khlib was making a joke from the sketch "Jezici" from the show "Top Lista Nadrealista" but maybe you haven't seen it, or maybe you have but don't understand it because it isn't in Croatian.

You know, and I know, and we all know that the languages are the same differences being about as different as American English and British English. You know damn well you can read whatever a Serb may write, and understand it fully, and a Serb can understand whatever you may write. ALWAYS you are bringing up nationality any chance you get to cause divide.

Do not call other users fascists, do not claim to understand how someone else might feel about a subject as sensitive as civil war and ethnic cleansing. A very very last verbal warning.

[khlib]

Also, how could Croats start purifying their language in Yugoslavia? They did that in 90's, so I don't see how could you see other.

Have you ever read Deklaracija o nazivu i položaju hrvatskog književnog jezika (1967)? There were also several language manuals published around the same time, some obviously were banned, but others weren't. There were certainly attempts at purification, even under Tito.

[Искра]

I have read that, of course. I’ve listened all history and “politics of history” classes on my collage. That document was a reaction of Croatian bourgeoisie on centralist tendencies by Aleksandar Ranković, who they saw as exponent of “Serbian imperialism” within Yugoslavia. It wasn’t about purifying it on lexical basis, but it’s was more regarding grammatical issues. Also, point of that was that Croatian bourgeoisie and intelligentsia can use “their” language in academic and literal works. Krleža supported it... Anyhow, I don’t know much of it, because I’m more concerned with political/economical aspects of 1971's movement.

[Искра]

In the end, 1971’s movement is Croatian nationalistic episode. It’s one of those mythical events that represent key figures in modern Croatian nationalism. It’s something like a “light” version of 1989’s Kosovo episode. Anyhow, this just proves character of Yugoslavia... That movement was quite big and it had its own fascist terrorist offshoots.

[tir1944]

The kingdom of Yugoslavia was established peacefully with the other nations in it.
It was established with the support of French and British imperialists.
Even the Titoist line on the issue recognizes the K.o.Y. as a chauvinistic,opressive "prioson/dungeon of the peoples" ruled by the Serbian bourgeoisie.
It's important to bring this up...


Even Tir1944 agrees with me and he is a Croat, as does Khlib.I'm not sure,i just have certain suspicions and doubts...

[ВАЛТЕР]

I looked to history and I gave you examples which you haven’t commented. Examples which were taken from Yugoslav “Titoist” school books and history books, considering that you are a Titoist. Start by answering to: how come that post-WW1 action of Serbian government is not imperialist?

The "Post-WW1 action" is the creation of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. it wasn't done by "force", the people accepted it. The Serbs could in no way have held that country by force as after WW1 Serbia lost almost 50% of its population. Therefore for that country to have been held together by imperialistic force is preposterous.


Also your “history of defensive wars” statement reminds me of one song (http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko_to_ka%C5%BEe,_Srbija_je_mala).

Is not Serbia's history nothing short of defensive wars?



You attack me without argument and you keep continuing with personal attacks without actually trying to debate certain political positions.
Also, regarding “language” issue, I was explaining political reasons for purification of language. I didn’t promote them, or anything similar. If you are not capable to read, don’t post.

I attack you because of your RIDICULOUS claims that Serbia was an imperialist nation.


I’m not referring to you as a Serb, but as a revleft user. Also, I come to you with arguments and I don’t disrespect you in anyway. Also, I don’t piss on graves of your family nor make personal attacks which could cause you harm in anyway. If I did I’m sorry. I’m trying to maintain this discussion civil as possible. I don’t care if Tir1944 is a Croat or what kind of nationality is khilib. I’m answering on their arguments and, in case of Tir, flames.

Where did I attack your family? Might I ask? I accused you of Anti-Serb sentiments, and Croat nationalism. Which are well founded. Tir flames? Yes, obviously, anyone who disagrees with you is flaming.



Prove them or stop flaming ;)

Prove them? They are right there, they clearly state that you said that Serbia was an Imperialist nation. It was not. Read your own posts.


You are bullying me with your irrational personal attacks which offend me greatly on personal level. Also, you are not even trying to answer on my posts.
Again, I don't do "constant attacks on Serbs". I was clear on this subject, now if you don't have profs or something counter-argumets - drop it.

WHAT PERSONAL ATTACKS? Calling you a nationalist isn't a personal attack, it is a political one. Your politics seem quite nationalist. You seem quite quick to attack Serbs in your posts.

This Chit Chat thread of all places you immediately saw a chance to spit on Serbia and you did. Again with accusations of "Imperialism" There was another thread but I cannot find it at the moment.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/anarchy-t163893/index2.html?highlight=anarchy

[ВАЛТЕР]

It was established with the support of French and British imperialists.
Even the Titoist line on the issue recognizes the K.o.Y. as a chauvinistic,opressive "prioson/dungeon of the peoples" ruled by the Serbian bourgeoisie.
It's important to bring this up...


NOT Serbian Imperialist aggression.

[Искра]

The kingdom of Yugoslavia was established peacefully with the other nations in it.
It was established with the support of French and British imperialists.

First, Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians and Kingdom of Yugoslavia are not same thing. Kingdom of SCS was created when Kingdom of Serbia and State of Slovenians, Croats and Serbs united. Croatian bourgeoisie didn’t consider this process as fair, because their delegates were manipulated by Serbian politicians from Croatia. Still, there was line within Slovenian and Croatian bourgeoisie which was for signing everything because they were afraid that Kingdom of Serbia would act according to plan A and take whole territory of State of SCS. Serbia even sends its army to Croatia. Kingdom of SCS was indeed creation of France and England which wanted to create strong puppet state on Balkans to divide Germany from Turkey and Balkans, but also to destroy Austria. They really didn’t care if that would be Great Serbia or Kingdom of SCS, but in London there was really powerful organisation of Yugoslav (Slovenian, Croatian and Serbian) politicians called Yugoslav Committee which fought for second option.


Even the Titoist line on the issue recognizes the K.o.Y. as a chauvinistic,opressive "prioson/dungeon of the peoples" ruled by the Serbian bourgeoisie.
It was, especially in the phase of Kingdom of Yugoslavia and saying that doesn’t make you a nationalist. Also, saying that in KOY Slovenia and Croatia were subjected to greater taxes and similar economic measures doesn’t make anyone nationalist. We could also mention murder of political elites which oppose king and his government. After all KOY’s politics was result why there was big communist movement in Yugoslavia.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Oh look I found another instance of you taking jabs at Serbs.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/serbian-anti-immigrant-t163996/index.html?t=163996&highlight=Serbian

[tir1944]

First, Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians and Kingdom of Yugoslavia are not same thing.
I know,but i didn't mention it because it's not that relevant.
Even Wikipedia does that,look:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Yugoslavia

[Искра]

The "Post-WW1 action" is the creation of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. it wasn't done by "force", the people accepted it. The Serbs could in no way have held that country by force as after WW1 Serbia lost almost 50% of its population. Therefore for that country to have been held together by imperialistic force is preposterous.

Loses are not argument. Serbia came out of war with strong military force and political influence. It had strong army while State of Slovenians, Croats and Serbs didn’t. They could take it by force. Also, Italians would help them, because they wanted Dalmatia. Read Čedomir Popović’s book regarding history between 1917 and 1945. I proved my claims that Kingdom of Serbia was imperialist. Now, you have to dispute them if you want, but you haven’t. Also, you can give some sources for your claims.


Is not Serbia's history nothing short of defensive wars?
No. That’s Serbian national mythology based upon “Kosovo myth”.


I attack you because of your RIDICULOUS claims that Serbia was an imperialist nation.
If you don’t agree with me answer with arguments, instead of calling me names.


Where did I attack your family? Might I ask? I accused you of Anti-Serb sentiments, and Croat nationalism. Which are well founded. Tir flames? Yes, obviously, anyone who disagrees with you is flaming.
By calling me Croatian nationalist/fascist/Ustaha. Flaming is when people participate in discussion, but has nothing to say, so instead of that they just call people names and attack them on personal basis. I didn’t see any proof of my “Croatian nationalism”. You call me that, because I call Serbia imperialist which just shows that you don’t understand what imperialism is, that you are filled with Serbian nationalist myths and that you have no manners regarding discussion - you don’t wanna do it in polite way, but you think that’s its more “cool” just to call people names. It doesn’t go like that mister.


Prove them? They are right there, they clearly state that you said that Serbia was an Imperialist nation. It was not. Read your own posts.So, do you consider Tito Croatian nationalist? Or Communist Party of Yugoslavia? They condemned Serbian imperialism also. Also, once again (can’t you read?): I never said that “Serbs are imperialist nation”, but I said that Kingdom of Serbia and Milošević’s Serbia were imperialist. You could read Partija Rada’s statements if you don’t agree with me... I believe that they also called Serbia imperialist.


WHAT PERSONAL ATTACKS? Calling you a nationalist isn't a personal attack, it is a political one. Your politics seem quite nationalist. You seem quite quick to attack Serbs in your posts.
If my politics is nationalist then you find quotes and explain my positions with which you don’t agree. The rest is immature behaviour. As you could see, I wrote your positions and you still didn’t answer to that. I didn’t called you a “Chetnik”, even I could, but that’s just under my level. Again, I'm attacking Serbian Imperialism not Serbs.


This Chit Chat thread of all places you immediately saw a chance to spit on Serbia and you did. Again with accusations of "Imperialism" There was another thread but I cannot find it at the moment.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/anarchy-t163893/index2.html?highlight=anarchy
Yes, I stated that Serbia was imperialist. I stand by that position.

[Искра]

Oh look I found another instance of you taking jabs at Serbs.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/serbian-anti-immigrant-t163996/index.html?t=163996&highlight=Serbian
What exactly is your problem here?

[Искра]

I know,but i didn't mention it because it's not that relevant.
Even Wikipedia does that,look:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Yugoslavia
Well it is relevant from the political system point of view. KSCS was more “liberal” than KOY which was one man dictatorship.

[ВАЛТЕР]

What exactly is your problem here?

The problem is that you said "Serbs are vanguard regarding hating Muslims"

Which is an outright lie, and you know it. The hatred for "Muslims" here should be more or less called "hatred of Bosnian Muslims" which is still a little overdone of a statement, hate is a strong word. All Serbs do not hate all Muslims.


Either way, whether it is true or not you throw it out there just to spite the Serbs. No reason other than that. Just like in the other thread I posted, and this thread we are in now. ANY chance you get you seem to try and make remarks against Serbs. Maybe I just happen to run into these threads, or maybe they are common, I don't know. I do know that your remarks seem rather mean spirited against Serbs.

[khlib]

Kontrra, if I may just ask you one question: would you rather live in the independent Croatia of today or Titoist Yugoslavia?

[Искра]

Serbs are vanguard regarding hating Muslims. :D

Now, without jokes. This action is more 90's and war related then "immigration". Serbian nationalists hate Muslims, because of Kosovo and Bosnia. Also, I don't think that there are much immigrants in Serbia, because immigrants usally go somwhere where can they work and in Serbia there's no job for anyone. For God’s sake. This is sarcasm and joke. You can see that from plane!

For the last time – I have nothing against Serbs neither do I post anything against Serbs. I write against Serbian imperialism which is related to Serbian capital and state. If you cannot debate “Serbian imperialism” – drop it.

Now, I kindly ask you to stop this charade, because you crossed every line.

[Искра]

Kontrra, if I may just ask you one question: would you rather live in the independent Croatia of today or Titoist Yugoslavia?
I would like to live in communism. In Titoist Yugoslavia I would be killed/tortured/deported/inprisoned because I'm communist, while in Republic of Croatia I'll die because I wouldn't be able to find a decent job.

[khlib]

I would like to live in communism. In Titoist Yugoslavia I would be killed/tortured/deported/inprisoned because I'm communist

lol, what? You're going to have to explain that one further...

[Искра]

lol, what? You're going to have to explain that one further...
I would openly say that Yugoslavia is not socialist but state capitalist society :) What do you think that would happen to me?

[khlib]

Same thing that happened with the Praxis group, for instance: nothing.

[Искра]

Same thing that happened with the Praxis group, for instance: nothing.
Yeah, but there's big difference between their critique and mine, and also there's question of activism. I wouldn't just write I would agitate. Did you know that punk rockers were put to jail because of PANK wall messages? JNA tought that PANK means pomozimo autonomiji naroda kosova (let's support autonomy of Kosovo people) ;)

It wasn't "milk and honey".

[khlib]

It wasn't "milk and honey".

Of course not, there were countless examples of political repressions, but history shows up that with increased liberalization, there was also more ethnic strife. I think that the territory of the former YU was an extremely difficult one to unite together under the banner of socialism, and Tito did damned well for himself. The SFRY was certainly better that the states that exist today.

[Искра]

Problem was much deeper and it’s result of mistakes which KPY made from the beginning. Strategy of united front with bourgeoisie, no revolution, state capitalist economy, focusing on national instead of class question, “socialism in one state”, cooperation with imperialists etc. etc.

[Bandito]

How many subjects have been brought up here?

First of all, Kontrrazvedka is not a nationalist, let alone fascist. He is annoying sometimes, but most certainly on the good side. He is also right about Serbian imperialism and all of those who close their eyes in front of that are actual nationalists in this thread. He's wrong on the language issue (as far as I'm concerned), but that is something that is debatable. Calling each other nationalists is not.

Valter, your posts spark with patriotism leaning on nationalism, which is common for Titoists. As said, Balkan was not a place of peace and harmony, never, and from neither side.

And, khlib, most of communists in Yugoslavia ended up dead. Majority of those who survived were nothing but party kissasses who knew nothing about socialism, they were interested only in power that came from being high in the party ranks. Titoist idealism really knows no limits, does it?

[Искра]

Thank you verry much, even if you are annoying Stalinist yourself - sometimes :) Brotherhood and unity ;)

[Thirsty Crow]

Either way, whether it is true or not you throw it out there just to spite the Serbs. No reason other than that. Just like in the other thread I posted, and this thread we are in now. ANY chance you get you seem to try and make remarks against Serbs. Maybe I just happen to run into these threads, or maybe they are common, I don't know. I do know that your remarks seem rather mean spirited against Serbs.
Until this enlightening discussion on the Serbian state not being imperialist, we've seen just one thread about, well, Serbian people, not in general, but about some protest over immigration.

In other words, I think you're full of shit.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Here's a test. Am I speaking Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian or Montenegrin in the following sentence?

"Jesti govno."

[Искра]

Here's a test. Am I speaking Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian or Montenegrin in the following sentence?

"Jesti govno."
It goes "jedi govna" (eat shit) ;)

But nobody is saying that languages are not simmilar.

I tried to point some other things, but I'll continue that discussion with comrades off this board or trough PM's ;)

[Yugo45]

Stop the hate :(

Anyway, I once got a bad grade from "Bosnian/Serbian/Croatian langugae and litterature" (real name of the subject lol) in high school for writing "uopće" instead of "uopšte". Or was it the other way around, can't remember.

The professor is a big time nationalist.

As everyone here seems to agree, all of these "languages" are pretty much the same. With minor differences, like, in Serbia, Bosnia and Montenegro you have many Turkish words, since the Turks used to own the place for 500 years. In Croatia, a bit of Hungarian and German I beilive.

But, my question is. What would you name this language? Tbh, I never liked the name "Serbo-Croatian". It sounds nationalist, and it implies that the language comes from Serbia and Croatia only. There should be a neutral name. But "South-Slavic" won't work because of Bulgarian, Macedonian and Slovenian.

So yeah, what would be a good name?

[Bandito]

But, my question is. What would you name this language? Tbh, I never liked the name "Serbo-Croatian". It sounds nationalist, and it implies that the language comes from Serbia and Croatia only. There should be a neutral name. But "South-Slavic" won't work because of Bulgarian, Macedonian and Slovenian.

So yeah, what would be a good name?

We are not linguists, we are Marxists. Such propositions should come from people who are involved in that matter much more than any of us, and such discussion cannot be opened before there is a alliance of Balkan countries based on class struggle. The rest is pissing against the wind.

[Manic Impressive]

probably a stupid question but could the language not be called Balkan?

I got another question I've been wondering about for a long time. Why did the name change from Jugoslavia to Yugoslavia or was that just an English thing?

Also this thread reminded me of this documentary which was pretty good http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWeU5OexIls
It's about a photographer who travelled the Balkans before the 1st world war. Some cool photo's

http://www.albertkahn.co.uk/photos/Balkans/Bulgaria.jpg
http://www.albertkahn.co.uk/photos/Balkans/Bosnia.jpg
http://www.albertkahn.co.uk/photos/Balkans/Greece_2.jpg
http://www.albertkahn.co.uk/photos/Balkans/Serbia_1.jpg
http://www.albertkahn.co.uk/photos/Balkans/Serbia_2.jpg
http://www.albertkahn.co.uk/photos/Balkans/Croatia.jpg
http://www.albertkahn.co.uk/photos/Balkans/Montenegro.jpg

[Bandito]

probably a stupid question but could the language not be called Balkan?

But you have to fit Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Albania and Macedonia somewhere...


I got another question I've been wondering about for a long time. Why did the name change from Jugoslavia to Yugoslavia or was that just an English thing?

Just an English thing. Croats call Croatia Hrvatska, Serbs call Serbia Srbija, Bosnia is Bosna for the natives, and Montenegro is, well, Crna Gora, believe it or not. :)

[Bandito]

And, yes, we are VERY complicated here.

[Yugo45]

We are not linguists, we are Marxists. Such propositions should come from people who are involved in that matter much more than any of us, and such discussion cannot be opened before there is a alliance of Balkan countries based on class struggle. The rest is pissing against the wind.

I'm just wondering what would people here call it :)

I just call it "Naški"

[khlib]

I love naški or naš jezik!

Jugoslavia is the same as Yugoslavia (j's are pronounced as y's in Slavic languages). At some point, the English standard for writing South Slavic names changed, and j's were written as y's. It's weird, when you look at English texts about the Balkans from the early 1900's, they write -ich instead of -ić (like Popovich) and Servian instead of Serbian.

Do any of our Balkan members know if Serbo-Croatian was ever called Yugoslavian? I don't recall running across that in any of my reading.

[khlib]

Also, since this is turning into a Balkan thread... perhaps I'll take it even more off topic and share two photos from my trip to New York City. Manic Impressive's photo reminded me, last weekend I went to a Bosnian restaurant called Stari most that had a reproduction of the old bridge in the restaurant:

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/376157_10101374815126284_2353012_77269932_11979264 54_n.jpg

Had cevapi, lepinja, Turkish coffee, and all that but I wolfed it down before I could get a picture. For dessert, we ate these cakes (I forget what they were called, something to do with "kolo"):
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/381652_10101374799836924_2353012_77269894_92762447 3_n.jpg

[Искра]

Yugoslavian language never existed. It was called Serbo-croatian or Croato-serbian.

I don't see what is your problem with the fact that people from each country call their language as they want? We should be concentrated on class struggle not ligvistics and as long as proletarians recognise the fact that they do not have state and that internationalism is important factor, I don't care about Croatian, Serbian and Bosnian. Of course, that doesn't mean that I won't stand against imperialism and/or nationalistic chauvinism... ;)

Now, regarding pictures, here's one from my part of Croatia:
http://www.management-club.hr/blago/slavonija%20muska%20nosnja.JPG

I actually wear this jacket :D

[khlib]

Yugoslavian language never existed. It was called Serbo-croatian or Croato-serbian.
Or Illyrian or Dalmatian or Serbian or Serbo-Croato-Slovene, depending on what time and where we're talking about ;)
I was just asking if it was ever referred to as Yugoslavian in any documents or manuals throughout South Slavic history


I don't see what is your problem with the fact that people from each country call their language as they want? We should be concentrated on class struggle not ligvistics and as long as proletarians recognise the fact that they do not have state and that internationalism is important factor, I don't care about Croatian, Serbian and Bosnian. Of course, that doesn't mean that I won't stand against imperialism and/or nationalistic chauvinism... ;)
Kontrra, you know better than this. Linguistics in the Balkans is clearly linked to nationalism, which goes against class struggle by putting national identity before class identity. By buying into these new national languages, you are implicitly accepting nationalist politics as well.

By constructing artificial communication barriers between the South Slavic nationalities, political elites are at the same time attempting to divide the working class and reject/disparage their common socialist heritage. Internationalism IS important, which is exactly why these petty language politics are so dangerous.

[Искра]

I don’t like when discussions go to circle. I emphasised nationalist danger long time ago in this thread, but unlike you I see Yugoslav nationalism as dangerous as Croatian or Serbian. Internationalism is one of the most important factors of Marxist thought and just like German and French proletariat should work together, even they don’t understand each other without knowing similar language, South Slav proletariat should work together – even they completely understand each other.

Name of language is not important if proletariat is united in Communist Party as job o Party is to dismiss nationalism and to destroy bourgeoisie society, nationalism and language.

Once again - who cares about the name of lanugage ;)

[khlib]

I see Yugoslav nationalism as dangerous as Croatian or Serbian
How is that possible? How can an ideology that advocates the mutual cooperation of all the South Slavic people be just as dangerous as ideologies that are based on separatism, irredentism, and that have led to countless deaths in the past century?


Name of language is not important if proletariat is united in Communist Party as job o Party is to dismiss nationalism and to destroy bourgeoisie society, nationalism and language.
This quote is an excellent example of what Marx & Engels would call "utopian socialism." "La tee da, we don't have to worry about these problems because they won't matter once the proletariat unites and destroys bourgeois society." Um, no. In order to unite the proletariat, these issues must be dealt with because they are, in a very real way, part of our class struggle.

By calling "naški" (good idea, Yugo :) ) by names invented by the nationalist bourgeoisie in an attempt to divide people and fulfill their own selfish political goals, you are reproducing that line of thought and implicitly affirming it. In the Balkan context, refusing to adopt the nationalist terminology is an overtly political act, and it does amount to class struggle, even in a small way.

[Искра]

Lol. That quote is actually what it is all about. Marx & Engels were internationalists to their end and communists who wanted to create working class parties, in order that proletariat becomes political class, which will later take down bourgeuisie society and state and establish proeltarian dictatorship. By destroying borugeuisie society you destroy also their ideology - nationalism and all it's myths. There's nothing utopian in that.

Yugoslav nationalism tends to create another nation and nation-state under "the red flag banner". There's no worst thing than that, because it destroyes revolutionary potential by proletariat. Today only connection which should be pushed by communsits is class one. Nations and nationalism should be throwed to garbage of history.

Idea of Yugoslav identety is burgeousie in its roots.

[khlib]

Lol. That quote is actually what it is all about. Marx & Engels were internationalists to their end and communists who wanted to create working class parties, in order that proletariat becomes political class, which will later take down bourgeuisie society and state and establish proeltarian dictatorship. By destroying borugeuisie society you destroy also their ideology - nationalism and all it's myths. There's nothing utopian in that.
...
Nations and nationalism should be throwed to garbage of history.

Yes, but how can the proletariat become organized, become a political class that can take down the bourgeois state, when there is so much nationalism (which has as its only goal the propagation of the bourgeois state by manipulating the proletariat into working against its class interests)? Nationalism is a strong force preventing the internationalization of the communist movement, both in the Balkans and the rest of the world. Dispelling nationalist myths and refusing to adopt nationalist terminologies is one small step towards throwing nationalism into the garbage bin of history, and paving the way for the international organization of proletarians.

[Искра]

Dispelling nationalist myths and refusing to adopt nationalist terminologies is one small step towards throwing nationalism into the garbage bin of history, and paving the way for the international organization of proletarians.
100% agree.

That's why I reject Yugoslav nationalism and identety.

Job of communists is not to create another national identety but a class one.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

It goes "jedi govna" (eat shit) ;)

Damn.

During the war, some churches and government agencies moved a lot of people from the Balkans to the place where I lived when I was younger. Mostly Bosnians and Serbs.

So I used to hang around with some folks from there. Also had a lot of Bosnian coworkers at one place I worked later on.

One of the first things I learned was eat shit, from a girl I dated. She always pronounced it like "jedi govno." Her best friend, who was Serbian, did too.

Years later when I was talking to some Bosnian coworkers, they asked what words I knew. Other than basic stuff like zdravo, all I remembered was jedi govno. One of them told me I had it wrong, and wrote it down on a piece of cardboard: jesti govno.

I went home and googled jesti govno and a bunch of results came up, so I figured that was it.

Now you tell me I'm wrong again and my vast BCS vocabulary is cut in half... :crying:

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Stari

That place ain't bad, but I know some much better Bosnian spots in Astoria -- especially for desserts. Next time you're in town send me a pm and I'll send a list.

[Искра]

It can be "jedi govno" ("Serbian" version) and "jedi govna" ("Croatian" version). It's about prenuciation... I can't describe that over Internet :D

"jesti govna" can be translated as "to eat shit", but that really doesn't make sense.

[Искра]

Btw. on "jedi govna" issue :D
pP78hAYkLU8

[Thirsty Crow]

It can be "jedi govno" ("Serbian" version) and "jedi govna" ("Croatian" version). It's about prenuciation... I can't describe that over Internet :D

"jesti govna" can be translated as "to eat shit", but that really doesn't make sense.
It's not about pronunciation, but about grammatical number.

Shit/shits, though it is ungrammatical in English to use "shits" (it would be grammatical to use "two pieces of shit").

In Croatian it's grammatical ("shit" being a noun with number).



One of them told me I had it wrong, and wrote it down on a piece of cardboard: jesti govno.

This is the infinitive of the verb in the idiom:

jesti govno = to eat shit

jedi govno! = eat shit!

The infinitive might be found in some pretty idiosyncratic idioms, like "Jesti govno nekome nije lijepo" (some Croat Macedonians - born in Croatia and learning Croatian as a first language use this idiom, I don't know about Macedonians) which would mean something like "To constantly nag someone is not nice"

[Искра]

I wanted to say: Also, it is about pronaunciation...

Because we pronaunce it different. Croatians usually pronauce it short while Serbians have long prnaunciation.... :D

[Thirsty Crow]

I wanted to say: Also, it is about pronaunciation...

Because we pronaunce it different. Croatians usually pronauce it short while Serbians have long prnaunciation.... :D
Yeah, it is :)

I just love different "systems" of pronunication (which is probably the only thing that indicates that I'm a sort of a philologist :D)

[Искра]

To me, people from Vojvodina have best pronucation.... when I hear their women talk.. uffff :blushing:

[khlib]

Well that's just because you haven't yet heard my beautiful American accent. :laugh:

For me, I can understand people from Serbia the easiest because the words don't seem to run together, but I thought my professor from Montenegro had the prettiest accent.