Time for action, not for talk ?

[cullinane]

As tavereeshkamo is looking for solutions to the problem, through Marxist praxis I'll try to contribute what I believe is some useful 'theory' that can be combined with 'practice'. Of course there is an obvious need for the proletariat to replace the
bourgeois institutions with the appropriate working class organisations, but
whats more necessary for analysis is how this will actually come about.
Criticism of the war on a pacifistic level will not radicalise the working classes, if left on their own. Currently, in the Western world, revolution is looks to be not on the horizon for a while yet.
A proletarian class consciousness is not something that will develop by itself. The working class in existing society is too disorganised and too wretched to understand its own interests. To expect the masses (reduced to such level of physical and mental slavery) to embody a critical political character and initiate any form of spontaneous historical development is an illusion.
Taking into consideration the current status of today's Western working class change is likely to be slow and the development of new forces unpredictable. In considering such a transformation, to disregard the
current bourgeois mode of life, a distinction will have to be made between the material transformation of the economic conditions and the ideological forces in which men become conscious of this conflict and fight it out.

In a period such as this, where the Western working class has been in a quiescent state for such a long time, there has to be long term preparation. The cultural power of the bourgeoisie and its ideology is so
well established that Marxists and Marxist parties will have to act in co-operation with other groups, make tactical concessions and so forth. At the same time Communists can make clear to the working class the ideological basis of our policy, to prevent the masses being entirely seduced by economism. To overcome the all-powerful appearance of capitalist society (an
as the proletariat is embedded in a bourgeois ideology) Marxists will have to reveal its essence and contradictions, develop our own world view from as
Gyorgy Lukacs says 'within' the working classes. I believe this will be a gradual process, operating from within the economic structure and political
structure.
Possibly with the existing social order entering a crisis (economic? war?) the first instance of dissent will be economic criticism of the immediate contradictions of the productive system through strike action or claims for
reform. With the right influence of Communist militants/intellectuals this will move from economic to political criticism and what Antonio Gramsci
calls a new historical bloc (objective and subjective forces combine) and take control of the state.

Regards,

[Kez]

Thank you for your reply

It is nice to see that not everyone is a pacifist sitting on their "revolutionary" chairs and talking about the oncoming "revolution".
Revolution doesnt start on an armchair
We must take action, but by the looks of things most people here are not ready for action or just cant be arsed

Comrade Kamo

[Nickademus]

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 12:29 am on Nov. 4, 2001
Thank you for your reply

It is nice to see that not everyone is a pacifist sitting on their "revolutionary" chairs and talking about the oncoming "revolution".
Revolution doesnt start on an armchair
We must take action, but by the looks of things most people here are not ready for action or just cant be arsed

Comrade Kamo

you know a lot of us harrassed fantamos because he was making horribly broad based assumptions. guess what . .you've done the same.
you have no idea what we do outside if this board. so fuck off. i could be doing a hell of a lot and you wouldn't have a fucking clue.

yes i'm very defensive because i'm sick and tired of having to explain myself to people over and over again. check past posts and you'll see what some of us are doing

[Kez]

Er Nick, How about you go FUCK yourself considering your so far up your own fuckkin arse.
What is the fukking point in your post? To prove to the world that ur the greatest?
How about you stfu and u piss off u fukking wanker.

How do you know i directed my question in my survey topic to you. You are a complete ignorant wanker, all you could of said was , "Yes i believe that we should be more active" or something along those lines.
Man, i swear if you were in my school id beat the fukking shit outta you coz ur staining the left-wing of politics.
You so love your ugly face.

*shakes head*

I did not want to give abuse to any fellow comrades, but your just a fucking dick.

Comrade *pissed off* Kamo

[Anonymous]

kamo thats no way to talk to a lady is it?

where ur manners at?

[Kez]

She's a lady?
And.....?

Surely in an equal world we will not divide society by gender like the capitalits?

However i will take this opportunity to apologise for any obscenities but i do not apologise for my comments about her being up her ass, or any of my comments about her charachter

Comrade Kamo

[Anonymous]

well if your phisicaly threating a girl then its you that needs a beating capiche

[Kez]

Hehe, i would never whack a girl

VIVA CHE!

DOWN WITH THE CHAMPAGNE REVOLUTIONARIES OF THIS FORUM!

Comrade Kamo

[Anonymous]

thats good... you cant tell she`s a girl from the name so thats why i thought i tell ya know...

anyways i do agree with you that action is necessary, and with great urgency. But im talking protests marchs activism political struggles not coups. So i guess it all depends and what ya mean by action... Of course the situation isnt the same in all contries, one might argue that revolution is a viable option for a contry like colombia or nicaragua because democracy cant work yet in such a contry... But in general i think its a bad option.

[Kez]

Yes El_che, i agree we dont need coup s here lol

By the way, is the Portuguese govt a communist govt under a different name?

Comrade KAmo

[Anonymous]

the goverment in power right now is the Socialist Party, but its not really socialist anymore if it ever was... Its too center. Its what you might might call a "third way" party as in europian social democracy. But if you ask me its not enof we need a more to the left goverment with more reasonable actions and positions in social matters and Globilisation. I myself am a member of the Left Block its what you might call a new left party. Most of us are old comunists ( not me im only 18:) ) that left the party because it just hasnt evolved, its still leninistic and i dont think thats what we need right now. But the comunist party here has still gets about 10% of the vote in elections and has about the same in parliament seats. Left Block only has two seats (and what a joy it is to see them work!) in the house at the moment but its only 2 years old.

[Kez]

Y donta all communists and socialists unite under one fukkin banner, instead of being no-bodies?

[Nickademus]

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 1:34 pm on Nov. 4, 2001
Er Nick, How about you go FUCK yourself considering your so far up your own fuckkin arse.
What is the fukking point in your post? To prove to the world that ur the greatest?
How about you stfu and u piss off u fukking wanker.

How do you know i directed my question in my survey topic to you. You are a complete ignorant wanker, all you could of said was , "Yes i believe that we should be more active" or something along those lines.
Man, i swear if you were in my school id beat the fukking shit outta you coz ur staining the left-wing of politics.
You so love your ugly face.

*shakes head*

I did not want to give abuse to any fellow comrades, but your just a fucking dick.

Comrade *pissed off* Kamo


gee i thought i'd made my point pretty clear. some of us are doing things outside of this bulliten board. and i wasn't speaking of myself only. i know others on this board who are quite active in trying to change the system. we may appear as though we aren't willing to take action etc. but you only see a small portion of our lives here so you can't make such generalizations without making an ass of yourself.

i wasn't trying to show i'm greater than everyone cause quite frankly there are a shit laod of people who are more active than me (for various reasons). and i thought i was jumping to everyone's defence.

obviously you are ignorant if you couldn't see my point, which btw other people have made on this board before. its ignroant fucks like yourself that are really the problem for the leftist community

[Moskitto]

Couldn't we destroy capitalism using it's own blood?

forge a load of money (Trillions) Pay of third world debt, develop African nations and at the same time make the prices of commercial raw materials go through the roof, cause global unrest and create 2 extremes.

Those who see the return to slavery of the third world as the only solution to the problem of hyperinflation. (Fascists)

Those who see the end of the Capitalist system being the only way to stop hyperinflation (Communists)

Then we go and fight a really BIG war.

[RedCeltic]

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 7:34 am on Nov. 4, 2001
Er Nick, How about you go FUCK yourself considering your so far up your own fuckkin arse.
What is the fukking point in your post? To prove to the world that ur the greatest?
How about you stfu and u piss off u fukking wanker.

How do you know i directed my question in my survey topic to you. You are a complete ignorant wanker, all you could of said was , "Yes i believe that we should be more active" or something along those lines.
Man, i swear if you were in my school id beat the fukking shit outta you coz ur staining the left-wing of politics.
You so love your ugly face.


Hey asshole learn some fuckin' manners! You no jack shit about Nickadermus or anyone on this bb... there's no need to attack anyone personally jerk off.
*shakes head*

I did not want to give abuse to any fellow comrades, but your just a fucking dick.

Comrade *pissed off* Kamo



Hey asshole learn some fuckin' manners! You no jack shit about Nickadermus or anyone on this bb... there's no need to attack anyone personally jerk off.

[Kez]

My apologise for seeming an "ass" as u so eliquently put, but is it too hard to ask for SOME people just to re-iterate their stance, rather than giving me grief about how they "were sick of going through this ALL over again". I mean if you were so sick of repeating yourself y not just ignore my post , rather than make no clear contribution other than dividing this BB into people who have loads of posts and are "fantastic" and other people who dont have so many posts and are "ignorant" etc. MAybe you should look at yourself (lves) and realise that maybe YOU are the problems.
It is highly hypocritical to suggest that i am ignorant and dont know anyone here on this BB when u generalise about me, when in fact you yourselves no SOD ALL about me, but continue to keep to your elitist club of 4-7 people. For all i care, you can shove this BB up your asses, if you can make way, as your heads are already there.

You are not the revolutionaries, I am not a revolutionary but listen my friend, you really should lower yourself in the ranking of high and mighty

Your truly
Comrade Kamo :)

PS i am waiting for your abusive comments towards me because some of your behave like 12 year olds

[RedCeltic]

Ok Ok... I'm sorry for the personal attacks... I just got very pissed off when you told my friend to go fuck herself.

[Anonymous]

ya should apologise and make the peace :D

[Nickademus]

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 6:18 pm on Nov. 4, 2001
My apologise for seeming an "ass" as u so eliquently put, but is it too hard to ask for SOME people just to re-iterate their stance, rather than giving me grief about how they "were sick of going through this ALL over again". I mean if you were so sick of repeating yourself y not just ignore my post , rather than make no clear contribution other than dividing this BB into people who have loads of posts and are "fantastic" and other people who dont have so many posts and are "ignorant" etc. MAybe you should look at yourself (lves) and realise that maybe YOU are the problems.
It is highly hypocritical to suggest that i am ignorant and dont know anyone here on this BB when u generalise about me, when in fact you yourselves no SOD ALL about me, but continue to keep to your elitist club of 4-7 people. For all i care, you can shove this BB up your asses, if you can make way, as your heads are already there.

You are not the revolutionaries, I am not a revolutionary but listen my friend, you really should lower yourself in the ranking of high and mighty

Your truly
Comrade Kamo :)

PS i am waiting for your abusive comments towards me because some of your behave like 12 year olds


i have made no assumptions about you. you made the assumption that none of us were taking any action and for that reason i called you ignorant. i made no assumptions

and i believe you hurled some abusive comments yourself.

and my contribution was an attempt to educate you by explaining that some of us are doing things.

and i'm not trying to be elitist. i don't think i am anybetter than anyone at all. maybe you'd realize that if you read some of my posts more carefully.

and i never made any distinction between those of us with a lot of posts and those of you with not so many. it was a comment about you and you alone. it appears as though you don't like the fact that you have so few posts, perhaps it makes you feel like you're not a trye leftists.

and how could i ignore your post when you are 'subtly' slandering a bunch of really good people?

eagerly anticipating your response

[Jurhael]

It would certainly be very nice and very IMPORTANT for the left to unite. Gods know this will help countries who have quite a few leftist groups but individually have few seats in a parliament.

Problem is, the left has a tendency to not unite unless they agree on everything(it's in a Commondreams.org article). Like, it'd be kind of hard to unite with Stalinists when one is a Left Libertarian or a Libertarian Socialist. But, I think the right likely has the same problem considering that Hitler was right winged.

I just think that the left needs to put aside it's differences for quite a looooong while, go with what unites them and then once they attain enough of their goals, then they can squabble all they want. Heh

[Anonymous]

kamo its not that your ignorante for not knowing the people here well enof and by consequence not knowing what there they actualy do in real life to further the cause. Thats not really your fault, its perfectly natural and understandable. Do you honestly think thats why nick hammered you? because your not a member? of course not. Its because to your own admition you dont know what the people here or at least most of them do in real life to further the cause of the left. Why then would you say that you think most of the people here dont do anything but talk? thats the problem you see? not that you didnt know but that you stated something without bothering to informe your self frist...

Lets be done with this shit already cuz its starting to smell, just apologise to nick and get to know us all and then judge if you think we are nothing but champanhe revolutionaries. At least then it wont be a board assumption and generalisation but an informed opinion that will be respected.

peace comrade.

[Kez]

Due to the advice of my lawyer i have been told to apologies
My sincere apologise
although i would like more respect than random attacks from Nick

Comrade KAmo

[Nickademus]

well i apologize for attacking you the way i did but i felt your statement was an attack on myself and numerous other members of this bb

[RedCeltic]

Ok... and I'm sorry for being so harsh comrade, it's truly not like me to attack anyone like that. I understand how Nickadermus's comment could have seemed eletist if you didn't know her. In truth nothing can be farther from the truth.

When we where debating the creation of the Commie Club it was Nickadermus who said to me first that she didn't think it was a good idea because it may discourage newer members who's opinions are important. And, she has aways been against banning any individual.

As far as how active am I in the real world.... I'm a member of the Socialist Party USA, am active in meetings and rallies when time permits.... I volenteer my time with some activist groups like letter writing for amnesty... and am a active member of my labor union.

As for Nickadermus I know she's more active in Amnesty International than I am.

It's understandable to wonder if people are truly active in fighting for socialism or are just people full of hot air. I suppose there are people like that, but it's truly hard to tell if someone is just all talk. And, much easier just to assume they are all talk.

Anyway, again I'm sorry for attacking you comrade, I hope we can put this past us.

In solidarity & Unity

RedCeltic

[gooddoctor]

man, tavareesh, i've got to say i'm getting pretty sick of all this fucking get-up-out-of-your-armchair-and-shoot-people bullshit. look around today's britain man. it's not going to happen - violent revolution is not an option. if you don't believe me, why don't you go and buy a gun and shoot it at the bank or any other convenient corporate stronghold and see what happens. i'll see you in a few years comrade once you've learned your lesson. in the meantime, i will be protesting on the street, working with my party and trying to infiltrate the corporate media. all that violent revolution has done is made everything harder for true socialists. we could've had a socialist government in this country ages ago if it weren't for stalin and all those crazy fucks spouting out bullshit about dictatorship. that's not what socialism is. it's not just about maintaining revolution, it's about giving the people what they deserve. a fair economy is probably the most important thing, but peace is part of it too, and so is a clean enviroment. noone wants war. if it's a choice between the status quo or another civil war i know which most of my family and friends and the rest of the country would chose and that's what's most important to me. this is a war of information, not guns. in some countries, sure it's the only way, but not here.
i work fucking hard for my party and my beliefs, and to sit here and listen to you saying i'm not being active pisses me off. what have you done that's so great, he? you're just alienating people with your talk of violence, noone in britain wants all this. we're all angry, but some of us know how to control our emotions and think rationally and realistically, and in the end, for all your big talk, we're the ones who're going to realise socialism. until i see you out on the streets protesting with me you are just another armchair commandante as far as i'm concerned.

(Edited by gooddoctor at 3:09 am on Nov. 5, 2001)

[Guest]

You are a true genius Moskitto , thats a wonderful idea . Although I do not think the capatalist society would allow us to progress so far , as to help create two extremes , their pure rage would show the world how destructive and hateful they can be . That would push humanity one step closer towards change . There are only two major hurdles we would face though : 1) Uniting all those wishing to bring the world to peace and prosperity 2) Forming some sort of company that would create large sums of money that would not be noticed by capitalists . Nonetheless it is still a brilliant idea . *sigh* I do wish all this excess anger in this forum would go away . We all have different ideals , it is not right to simply denounce someone because they have ideals different from your own . Someone may say something you do not like but you should not yell and threaten their lives , in a attempt to drive them from this forum , to purify this place in a ideal that is your own exclussivly . There is no such thing as a perfect ideal , all ideals have faults but please at least listen or ignore those ideals you do not like . Almost all of us here who post are for change to this world and I beleive if there is to be unity then we should not unite under our own idvidual ideal . For in the end we will find many part lines drawn and cause conflict and we will never win our war . The capatalist are united under one banner , that is the money sign . They may cut each others throat at times but when something threatens all of them from making money , you sure as hell will see all of them marching single file to battle. So if we are to unite then , our first step would be this forum , as to unite together not as communists , socialist or any other party banner , but as humans who wish to change human society and finally end the wars of our decendants . Bringing peace and unity to all , and not under a ideal or theory but under the pretense to help one another and to forge everlasting tranquility . So I ask you will you not become united ? Not for yourselves , your ideals , or even for your moral fibers but for humanity .
Shadow Of A Bleeding Rose

[Guest]

I ask you to please read my reply . This is very important.

[gooddoctor]

that's what i believe too - the revolution is about humanity. but those opposing its destruction must unite under one banner because this is a war and divided we fall. the socialist alternative is the only viable alternative. we may disagree amongst ourselves about the course of the revolution, but all of these chinks wll be worked out during the revolutionary process and the creation of a true, inclusive democracy. in the end of the day we are all striving for the same goals so we must take everybody into account, including our allies who are currently working outside the revolutionary parties, the working class. employing tactics that alienate people and make us look undemocratic is a weapon to be used against us.