Help me counter this argument please.

[ВАЛТЕР]

An apparent third-worlder is using this site (http://www.globalrichlist.com/)to imply that the working class in the western world is over-paid and is therefore not a proper working class and is reactionary and blah blah.

I already went over how even though they may be better off than a laborer in India the western worker is still the exploited and lives far from a comfortable life. Since commodities are much more expensive, as is living space and food along with other things etc.

I gave him examples from my travels in the US and how much of the working class is in huge amounts of debt, etc. and our job as communists is to show solidarity no matter what.

However he keeps referring me to this site, as if it is some kind of proof of something. It is a bullshit argument I know but can someone give me a source or a method to shut his rhetoric down.

Thank you comrades.

http://www.globalrichlist.com/

[Tjis]

What lists like this fail to show is how income relates to standard of living. For example, I pay 230 euro a month in rent, which is 2760 euro a year (quite low for dutch standards). According to that website, making 2760 euro annually places one in the world's richest 14.72%. If everyone in the world had to pay rent like that though, it'd mean more than 85% of the world would be homeless. This is not the case of course. What is really going on is that the cost of living in the first world is much, much higher than it is elsewhere.

So in order to compare incomes you can't just convert to dollars and see which number is bigger. You have to divide incomes by the minimum cost of living, which tells you how many people someone could support with their income.

[CAleftist]

^^To add to that, there's quite a few workers in America who owe more money than they make or have. And then there's the fact that even the highest-earning wage slaves are still wage slaves (ie they still only have their labor to sell).

[ВАЛТЕР]

Thanks a lot comrades! This guy was getting on my nerves with this site. I found it perplexing as to how he could think this, I'll try and pop some sense in his head though. :)

[ВАЛТЕР]

So, I am going to go with this response:


I went to the site that you suggested, and I fail to find it convincing that workers in the west are not worthy of being supported. What lists like that one fail to show is how income relates to standard of living. Simply because a person makes a certain amount of money does not mean he/she lives great. The workers of the west are not spoiled, they may have better pay than those in India, China etc., however they are still exploited and their living conditions are not all that great. You forget to account that the majority of the working class in the west is in debt. In serious debt. They are often owe more in debt than what they make in a year, and with interest they will likely remain in debt for ever. They are not only wage slaves, they are also slaves to the finance capitalists.

So in order to compare incomes you can't just convert to dollars and see which number is bigger. You have to divide incomes by the minimum cost of living, which tells you how many people someone could support with their income. A family of 4 CANNOT live off of a yearly income of let's say 40,000 dollars (which is a common income above the poverty line). They simply cannot. They will have to take out loans, or look for government help, and even then they are condemned to live in poor neighborhoods infested with crime. Even with an income of 80,000 dollars the family of four cannot live without being in debt. They system is designed around debt.

All in all, that site does a poor job of comparing living costs. The site only compares money and then looks at who makes more. That is an ineffective way of viewing the actual position of someone.

Good, bad, suggestions?

[ВАЛТЕР]

Anything I should add to this statement?

[Psy]

Even if western workers are well paid they are still being exploited as surplus value comes from unpaid labor. For example even when professional athletes struggle for more pay from team owners (like the current NBA lockout) they are still in a wage slave/capitalist relationship regardless that professional athletes are well paid since the players are the creators of value. It is that players that puts butts into the seats and generates viewers not the team owners so all that money comes from the labor of the players and zero from the labor of the owners.

[ZeroNowhere]

'Guys, do you remember the 1970s? Come to think of it, do you even remember the 2010s?'

('Do you even have a mind?')

In any case, it's pretty clear that if crises are caused by an excessively low rate of profit, any 'freebies' that capitalists handed out would soon take their toll and have to be abolished. Indeed, since the end of the post-war boom, there has been a strong reaction against the Western working class which would be rather inexplicable if the first world working class were 'not an exploited class', whatever that even means. Capitalist production has exploitation as its only aim, and in the absence of it would become pointless.

[ВАЛТЕР]

He responded with this.

I tried to explain that a family of four cannot live off of 40,000 dollars. I have been to the US, and know this first hand. He is just speculating.

WTF? I hate third-worldism it alienates much of the working class.

Credits are additional money supply. This is proof that people in west are privileged. Third world proletariat haven't got possibility to take this sources. Working class from first world is often more wealthy than national bourgeois in third world. First worlders are debt because they live above their needs. 40 000 $ are a big money.

[kashkin]

First world workers may be better off than thirld world bourgeoisie, but they aren't exploiting, they are being exploited. Just because a businessperson is poor doesn't mean s/he is not an exploiter.

It smells of fascism as it supports thirld world bourgeoisie over workers and implies a level of class collaboration (which would in practise obviouslysupport the ruling class).

[Per Levy]

WTF? I hate third-worldism it alienates much of the working class.

why do you bother with these peaople anyway? i mean most of them are lost causes + fortunatly mtw is pretty much unimportent outside of the internet.


Credits are additional money supply. This is proof that people in west are privileged.

previliged to be in a credit trap i guess. yeah paying of credit and its interest rate is a really nice previlige.


First worlders are debt because they live above their needs.

yeah sure, its not like prices are pretty high and so are the costs of living, rent and everything. not to mention that all the working poor, who work like 2 or 3 jobs and hardly make enough to actually buy food and so on.


40 000 $ are a big money.

many workers in the "first world" dont even make that much, heck i live in germany and make less then 10000€ a year, and i have to support my unemployed us finace from that too. fuck third-worldist.