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tir1944
22nd November 2011, 02:52
Excerpts from Enver Hoxha's Reflections on China

For those who might be interested in the matter...
Thanks to "The Red Republic" website

July 4th., 1962:
At the meeting he had with our comrades, Chou En-lai told them that it would be difficult for China to supply us with all the things concerning which agreements had been signed. Our comrades rejected this because it smelled of economic pressure. We must be very cautious and cool-headed, for the enemy is striving intensively to separate us from China, striving to isolate us.

December 23rd., 1962
At a dinner which the Chinese comrades put on in Peking for a group of our building specialists, Li Hsien-nien said in his speech that we would not be able to build and bring into production the new projects which we receive from China within the agreed time. And,speaking about modern revisionism, he said (without specifying them) that there were contradictions between the Party of Labour of Albania and the Communist Party of China, although they were in agreement on the general line. His statement about the construction of the new projects is untrue, since the work has not even begun. He might have mentioned that the Chinese had not delivered the blueprints on time: this is what is delaying the project.

August 21st., 1964:
The stand of the Chinese towards the centrist and revisionist outlook of the Romanians is mistaken and opportunist. In his talk with the Romanian ambassador, Chou En-lai took a wrong and nationalist stand towards the Soviet Union, teIling him of China's territorial claims against the Soviet Union and accusing it (in fact, Lenin and Stalin, for this "robbery" took place in their time) of having seized Chinese, Japanese, Polish, German., Czech, Romanian, Finnish and other territories.

These are not Marxist-Leninist,but national-chauvinist positions. Regardless of whether mistakes may or may not have been made, to raise such matters now, in the middle of the ideological struggle against Khrushchevism, assists Khrushchov.

What a line the Chinese have! On the one hand they defend Stalin on the other they call him a robber. It is clear now why the Chinese do not want us to hold the talks we had decided upon with the Romanians. It is because we are in opposition to the Chinese' positions!

September 4th., 1964:
We gave the Chinese our reply in connection with the question of invitations to the 15th anniversary of the proclamation of the
People's Republic of China. Firstly, we told them that we considered it unacceptable that the Romanian Workers'Party and Government should be invited to send a delegation to the celebrations, since until yesterday they were attacking all of us publicly, were in complete solidarity with all the modern revisionists, have the most friendly links with the renegade Tito, and are accepting credits from American and other imperialists.

The Romanians base their struggle against the Khrushchev group not on Marxism-Leninism, but economic and national-chauvinist considerations. Secondly, we wrote that we considered that official representatives of Marxist-Leninist Parties are excluded.

What will communists throughout the world think when they see the Romanians given pride of place at China's celebrations while the Marxist-Leninist Parties do not figure anywhere.

No tactical considerations can justify this action, which will be an astonishing thing beyond understanding for world opinion.

September 15th., 1964
Throughout the development of the struggle of Communist Party of China against the modern revisionists, it has displayed some astonishing vacillations in its tactics.

One remembers the Moscow Meeting of 1957, when Comrade Mao publicly supported Khrushchev approving his action in denouncing Stalin and in condemning the anti-Party group of Molotov, and advocating unity with the Khrushchev group.

When I met Comrade Mao in Peking in 1956; he criticised the "incorrect" actions of Stalin, particularly his actions in relation to Yugoslavia, describing the Yugoslavs as "good Marxists".

October 6th.,1964:
Certain unprincipled stands of the leadership of the CPC cannot fail to cause us anxiety. Certainly the enemies of our enemies can be our true friends when they are with us ideologically and politically. In other cases they may be our temporary allies on certain questions, although we must not give way to them on questions of principle.

But the enemies of our enemies may be our enemies, so that both have to be fought. We must take advantage of the contradictions between them, but we must not make concessions to them or be duped by their demagogy.

I am afraid the Chinese comrades are not always, very clear on these matters.

We must consider modern revisionism the main enemy in the international communist movement, or the "Major Devil" as the Chinese, call it. But this major devil comprises many devils, some greater and some smaller. Sometimes these devils appear united; sometimes they split because of the contradictions between them.

In the fierce and camp1icated struggle against modern revisionism, Marxist-Leninists have a wide range of tactics available, But these tactics must be based on proletarian principles, not bourgeois diplomacy.

Tito is just as dangerous as Khrushchev, if not more so, and must be fought determinedly. To underrate Titoism would be madness -- for to do so is to underrate American imperialism, which speaks through the mouth of Titoism in the ranks of international communism. To underrate Titoism is betrayal.

October 13th., 1964:
In reply to the request of our delegation for a reply to our letter concerning China's borders with the Soviet Union, Comrade Mao said:

"We are not going to reply to you, because if we did, 'polemics would arise. Perhaps after many years we shall reply to you".

This reply reflects an unprincipled, incorrect and uncomradely attitude towards the Central Committee of the Party of Labour of Albania. It shows that "Comrade Mao' does not like comradely criticism. The fact Chinese comrades are avoiding consultations with us.

October 31st.,1964:
Chou En-lai has declared:

"The polemics ceased on October 16th Thus, for the Chinese the fall of Khrushchev is everything. They say in effect; "With Khrushchev gone Khrushchev is dead. We must forget the past. Nothing remains but to pack our bags quickly and dash off to Moscow, to kiss one another at the celebrations of the October Revolution. What a comedy! What a dirty, feudal, fascist mentality!

All this is a provocation against us, for the Chinese comrades know very well that we shall not march with them along this treacherous road. So their intention is to go to Moscow and say: "The Albanians are no longer with us. We are the 'infallible' brain of the communist movement. Mao alone saw things correctly; all others were wrong -- Khrushchev, Stalin and so on. Now one must say 'Marx, Engels, Lenin, Mao!".

In no way will we accept the revisionist views of the Chinese. Cautiously and progressively, we must make the Party aware of this new situation. It will be impossible to prevent our disagreements, with the Chinese from spreading from the ideological and political field to our economic relations. Coercions, delays and pressures will gradually develop. We must not, therefore, go blindly into projects, or become blindly dependent on the credits they might grant us, for they might cut them off at the moment they consider most effective.

November 15th., 1964:
The Chinese are telling us nothing about the results of Chou En-lai's visit to Moscow. This is out of order, neither friendly, comradely nor Marxist.

November 21st., 1964:
Chou En-lai went to and returned from Moscow like Napoleon. He suffered an ignominious defeat. The Moscow revisionists provoked him, insulted him and humiliated him. What a disgrace for the Chinese. All their indescribable enthusiasm, their "profound judgments" -- all suffered fiasco. What will they do about the PLA? Will they admit their terrible mistake? They do not deign to give us an answer.

November 24th.., 1964:
The Soviets have offended the Chinese badly and have not made the slightest concession. Now the Chinese are very angry and have sworn their "implacable opposition" to the Soviet revisionists.

December 27th.., 1965:
We informed the Chinese comrades about the formation of the Communist Party of Poland. The CC of the CPC thanked us for the information, but pointed out that it does not have secret links with the Polish Marxist-Leninists and would not help them apart from the open stand in its press against revisionism. We believe, and have always believed, that the arousing of the masses to revolution in the revisionist countries of Europe is indispensable and, urgent. We do not interfere in the internal affairs of any state, but one of the most deadly blows we can inflict on the modern revisionists is the all round support and aid we must give all Marxist-Leninists without exception, wherever they are fighting.

August 9th., 1966
Marx condemned the cult of the individual as sickening. However, we observe with regret that in recent months the Chinese comrades have embarked on the wrong, anti-Marxist course,of turning the cult of Mao almost into a religion, exalting him in the most sickening way, without giving the least consideration to the great harm this is doing to our cause, not to mention the ridicule to which it is giving rise.

We condemn this unrestrained, non-Marxist propaganda. But the fact is that our criticism on this question to Chou En-lai on his last visit here had no effect at all. Are we dealing with Marxists or religious fanatics?

The question arises; why all this unrestrained propaganda? I can explain it only, as the deafening beating of a drum to conceal some hostile activity.

Further, the Chinese comrades, who in so many things show themselves cautious and slow to move, now begun to smash things with axes. We agree that the axe should be used, where necessary, but in China it is falling upon every work of art, every literary creation, regardless of its overall progressive spirit. Progressive world culture in general appears to have no value at all in the eyes of the Chinese comrades. To allow the students to display this terrible xenophobia, as is being done in China is a great mistake which has nothing in common with proletarian internationalism.

August 20th., 1966:
A great puzzle! Astonishing events, dangerous to the great cause of Communism are taking place. We have a problem with many unknown
factors; we have to try to see clearly into this dark Chinese forest with Marxist judgement .

The Proletarian Cultural Revolution against bourgeois elements in the field of culture should have been inspired by Marxist-Leninist, ideology.and organised and led by the Party. There should have been no smell of mysticism, metaphysics or idealism in its essence', its
forms or its tactics. For then it is no longer a Proletarian Cultural revolution ,but however it may be portrayed, its opposite.

Chinese propaganda presents it as a revolution launched spontaneously from below, by the masses. But in reality it had to be organised By whom? Here the figure of Lin Piao emerges. But how is it possible for such a Cultural Revolution to be launched by one person; while the Party and its Central Committee remain in the background? Only the Central Committee of the Party can take such decisions. It is a fact since 1956, when the 8th.Congress of the CPC was held, more than five years have elapsed since the time when the 9th. Congress should have been convened. Why is this?

Normally, also, Plenums of the Central Committee of a Marxist-Leninist Party are held twice a year; but the recent Plenum of the CC of the CPC was held after four years delay! Then who is leading the Party? I suspect that since 1956, Mao has been left on the sidelines and turned into a mere symbol. Recently the Party has been completely over-shadowed by the name of, Mao Tse-tung. Behind the fanaticisation around the person of Mao Tse-tung lies something very dangerous.

August 26th., 1966:
Today I read the 16-point document on the Cultural Revolution issued by the recent Plenum of the CC of the CPC. This implies that the enemy had deeply penetrated the party, to the point where it had taken over the leadership of whole Party committtees.

One thing worries me: the role of the CC and of the Party as a whole emerges as weak. Another thing, strikes the eye. Although school
pupils and students hold the initiative in the Cultural Revolution, the Party's youth organisation is not to be seen anywhere .What is
even more serious, there is no sign of the participation of the working class; it seems as if they are afraid of it.

Although power appears to be in the hands of the proletariat, it is possible that the borgeoisie is still powerful and dangerous. The
Chinese comrades admit this when the put the question: Which will win in China, socialism or capitalism.

Industry in China is declared to be socialist, but we see that the capitalists in enterprises still receive a fixed interest. This should not have been allowed. Instead of receiving crushing blows, all the enemies were "re-educated" and "placed in suitable jobs" where they could carry on hostile activity

September 1st., 1966
What this "Red Guard" is and why it is being created is not clear to us. It has been said that, it is being formed "to carry out a radical purge of capitalist and revisionist culture". But this task has been begun in an anarchic and confused manner.

Certain serious questions strike us at the start:

1.The "Red Guard" is composed mainly of youth, university students and school pupils. But it cannot be carried out by students alone.

2.If this is to be a revolution in favour of "proletarian culture", it is amazing that is the working class and peasantry are sitting by as onlookers! Whatever the, Chinese comrades say, nothing satisfactorily explains this.

3. What has become of the Communist Youth Its voice is not being heard at all. It seems as if it does not exist.
The only concrete thing which the "Red Guard" does is to praise Mao tse-tung to the skies, presenting him as a god: in the full sense of
the term.

September 20th., 1966
The true purpose of the "Red Guard" movement remains unknown to us. It is certainly acting without leadership or control.

The Chinese comrades simply must inform our Party about the full decisions of the recent plenum of the CC of the CPC. The "excuse" that
the Chinese ambassador in Tirana has been away from his post for five months "doing his physical labour" in China is unacceptable. Even if the Chinese comrades continue on this wrong, non-Marxist-Leninist course, we shall never allow our Party to be committed to the course of the cult of the individual.

January 29th., 1967:
It,is now clear that Mao found himself in a minority, and for this reason had to rely on the army. The military fist under the direction
of Mao and Lin Piao is the reality standing behind the Cultural Revolution.


April 7th., 1967:
The "new form" which emerged from the Cultural Revolution appears to be that the Chinese moving towards the "unification of" the Party
with the state"!?

April,28th.,1967
A Marxist-Leninist Party like ours, which is building socialism correctly, cannot proceed on the road advocated by the Chinese. A
Marxist-Leninist Party like ours deepens the revolution, but not like that which is going on in China today.

July 14th., 1967;
Posters in China say: "Mao Tse-tung Thought is the culmination of Marxism". Surely Mao himself cannot approve such wild exaggerations.
But the fact is that they are occurring.

Guided by hasty judgments, incorrect principles and ill-considered claims, the Chinese comrades could gravely damage the new
Marxist-Leninist groups and Parties which are in process of creation. In seeking to establish that "Mao is the world leader" of
international Communism,: it could happen that if some Marxist-Leninist group of Party does not put much emphasis on Mao and the Cultural Revolution while some deviators from Marxism-Leninism emphasise these things strongly, the Chinese comrades will prefer the latter. And the damage has been done. The Chinese have reached the conclusion that the little red book, "Quotations from Mao Tse-tung" is "the culmination of Marxist-Leninist science and philosophy". Such claims are infantile.

Today they are carrying on without an organised Party. How can they advise the Marxist-Leninists of the world how to form and consolidate new Parties.

August 15th., 1967:
The Chinese press is liquidating Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin and making a god of Mao, reaching the scandalous level of saying; Those who do no follow the road of Mao and the Cultural Revolution are "deviators". This wrong. This is not Marxism, but Trotskyism.
January 16th., 1968
We have almost no contact with the Chinese comrades and do not know official1y what is happening there. They withdrew their ambassador in Tirana on the grounds that he was implicated in the activities of the Liu-Teng group. When will he be replaced? There is no signal.

January 19th., 1968:
The main Chinese newspapers are publishing the directive on the reorganisation of the Communist Party arnd the mass organisations. Thus it is confirmed that up to now the CPC has been broken up and that the Cultural Revo1ution was in fact led by Mao and the "Main Group of the Cultural Revolution".

March 20th., 1968:
In the international arena the voice of China is almost, if not completely, silent. Thus it is not acting wisely For nearly a year they have not had an ambassador even here in our country. Can this be covered by the excuse: "We haven't a good man"? Or is it in order to reflect their silent dissatisfaction that we are not shouting `hosannas' to Mao and not following their mistaken tactic of silence
in the international field?

We see a similar superficial stand on the part of the Chinese comrades, towards the new Marxist-Leninist groups and Parties. They have contacts and give aid to many groups and Parties, even to those groups separate from or hostile to the new parties, justifying these un¬differentiated contacts by saying: "We assist all groups that fight imperialism and modern revisionism". But the struggle brings about differentiation, and this must, be followed up on a principled basis.

April 25th., 1968:
Under the cloak of the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese have shut themselves up completely in their own shell. They are merely publishing the quotations of Mao, in millions of copies, making millions of Mao badges, and spreading slogans in praise of him.
Nothing else, absolutely nothing else!

All China's contacts with the outside world have been completely frozen if not broken off altogether. All China's ambassadors have been
withdrawn from the countries where they were serving. Neither their newspapers, nor Hsinhua; nor Radio Peking, deal with any international question.

Even with us their closest friends, contacts are glacial. They don't allow our ambassador in Peking any contacts; he is isolated. An astonishing situation!

They have refused our invitation to send a delegation to the May Day celebrations, and have not invited any delegation from our side either. They carry on a "Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution", yet ignore the celebration of the proletarians! This too is astonishing!

June 8th., 1971
The Chinese have told us that: they have decided to allow American senators, businessmen, journalists, sociologists, etc., into China. The Soviets began this way too!

July 24th., 1971

Nixon is to go to Peking! We are not in agree¬ment. Therefore I think we should write to the Chinese a letter saying that we are opposed to this decision.

Nixon is an aggressor, a murderer of peoples, an enemy of socialism -- especially of Albania, which the USA has never recognised as a people' s democratic state and against which it has hatched a thousand plots.

The invitation to Nixon will benefit imperialism and world reaction, and will gravely harm the new Marxist-Leninist Parties which have looked upon China and Mao Tse-tung as the pillar of the revolution and as defenders of Marxism-Leninism.
July 26th., 1971:
The Sino-American honeymoon has begun. The matchmakers have had their penultimate meeting to prepare the wedding, the meeting between Mao and Nixon.

The content of the cordial talks between the old friend's Mao Tse-tung, Chou En-lai and Edgar Snow has been made known to Nixon, to Wall Street and, without doubt, to the allies of the USA. But the Chinese are keeping it a secret from the Albanians, China's "loyal allies".

What secrets are there in these talks that prevent us from being informed as to their content? The answer is simple: the talks have not been held in accordance with Marxist-Leninist principles. This is treachery; this is glaring revisionism. This is not "people's diplomacy", as the Chinese claim; it, is secret diplomacy with the heads of US imperialism.

July 27th., 1971:
The Chinese think that others ought to approve everything they say or do, and should consider every word or action on their part a, treasure of Marxism-Leninism, to be applied everywhere. The whole foreign policy of the People's Republic of China is chaotic. The Marxist-Leninist Parties which have been created are regarded as worthless by Chou. The Chinese comrades do not support and aid these parties but maintain contact with all sorts of groups, especially those which praise Mao Tse-tung and the Cultural Revolution, irrespective of what tendency these groups have.

Even the stand of the Chinese against the Soviets reflects great state chauvinist views and is not based upon Marxist-Leninist principles. For the Chinese whichever is anti-Soviet is fine. This anti-Marxist position will, unless it is stopped, lead to betrayal.

In seeking rapprochement with the USA, China is making a grave mistake in principle for which it and the world will pay a heavy price. We must try, if we can, to stop this adventurous course on China's part. The letter we are preparing for the CC of the CPC is one of those attempts. It may cost us dear, but we must make no concession over principles. We must defend the Marxist-Leninist principles of our Party to the end.

July 28th., 1971:
The Americans are continuing to wage one of the most barbarous wars the world has ever seen. But while this war is going on, while the
Americans are killing and bombing in Vietnam, China holds secret talks with the Americans at which it is agreed that Nixon shall go to Peking.

These disgraceful, anti-Marxist, uncomradely negotiations were held without tbe knowledge of the Vietnamese, let alone ourselves. This is scandalous and revolting, a betrayal of the Vietnamese and ourselves. The Khan of Pakistan was deemed worthy to be the first to be informed about the secrets of the gods".What shamelessness!

The North Koreans headed by Kim il Sung as the centrists they are p1eased with this political somersault on the part of the Chinese. This road cannot be defended, as the Chinese propagandists try to do, by saying "Lenin talked with the Germans at Brest" Tomorrow these same propagandists will be saying: "Stalin signed the non-aggression pact with Hitler". But neither Lenin nor Stalin ever fell into mistakes of principle; time,and the unerring theory of Marxism-Leninism have made this completely clear.

September 24th., 1971.
The news agencies are clamouring about something going on in China, alleging that Lin Piao has fled.

October 14th.,1971;
The CommunistParty of China is not sending a delegation to the 6th Congress of the Party of Labour of Albania. We did not expect such a thing.

October 26th., 1971:
The vote was taken yesterday at midnight, and our resolution -- calling for the admission of China to and the expulsion of the corpse of Chiang Kai-shek from the United Nations -- won by 78 votes against 350 We fought for a great and just cause and we were victorious. It is indirectly confirmed that something has happened to Lin Piao. The rumours cannot have been without foundation.

November 9th., 1971:
The 6th Congress of our Party has ended with extraordinary success, displaying unity both within the Party and with the people.
What was the attitude of the CPC towards this major event for our Party and people? Cold and insulting!

The decision not to send a CPC delegation to the Congress was clearly taken by Mao and Chou En-lai because of opposition to our Party's line.

November 19th., 1971:
The Hsinhua News Agenty reports that a delegation of the Spanish (revisionist) party, headed by its General Secretary Carrillo, has arrived in China.

This welcoming of the revisionist group of Carrillo will raise many problems for the Communist Party of Spain (Marxist-Leninist), for it will compel that Party in its struggle against Spanish revisionism to take up a position on the relations of the CPC with the revisionist party of Passionaria. The same situation will arise for the Marxist-Leninist Parties when delegations of revisionist parties visit China. Hence, a new, concrete danger threatens to undermine the new Marxist-Leninist Parties.

November 30th., 1971:
It is said that the Cultural Revolution has ended. We do not really know the situation in China, we know it only at the level of propaganda. But what can we do. They have not deigned to give us even the briefest reply to the letter we sent them.

January 3rd., 1972:
The Chinese are still not telling us anything about the disappearance of Lin Piao, which is now an undeniable fact. On this question an
impermissible silence is being maintained towards us.

February 13th., 1972;
Jacques Jurquet, the principal leader of the Communist Party of France (Marxist-Leninist) has avoided meeting our comrades in Paris for six months since his return from Peking. He did not come to our 6th. Congress. Jurquet has completely embraced the orientation of the Chinese.

February 22nd., 1972
Yesterday Mao received Nixon and talked with him for an hour. What they talked about is unknown.

February 24th., 1972:
Even Nixon's wife is joining in the propaganda. She is advertising Chinese cooking, Chinese silk pajamas and people's comnunes. Pat Nixon has become another Anna Louise Strong.
February 25th., 1972;
China is gradually abandoning its revolutionary line and has set itself on an opportunist, liberal, revisionist line. It is proceeding in the direction of agreement with US imperialism as a counterweight to the Soviets and to further its own consolidation as a major
capitalist power.

March 3rd.,1972:

I have carefully studied the Sino-American communique. It is clear that the Chinese have really deviated, just as Khrushchev did in his time.

March 4th., 1972:
Up to today the Chinese government has given us no information about Nixon' s visit and the talks held with him. Dead silence.

March 14th 1972;
Two weeks have gone by since Nixon left China, yet the Chinese have not bothered to give us any information. Meanwhile China's stand towards us is cold. It maintains no contact with us, either through our ambassador in Peking or through the Chinese ambassador in Tirana, who remains shut in his ivory tower.

If China really comes to an agreement with US imperialism, the contradictions and struggle with us will obviously increase.

March 21st., 1972:
The Chinese cleaned up the city prior to Nixon's visit, painted the shops in those streets through which he was to pass, removed "dangerous" slogans which, might have offended the honoured guest, displayed books of the Chinese and foreign classics, which disappeared from circulation for years. All these activities were done under the guise of the Chinese New Year, to herald the "Year of the rat".

The Chinese press had ceased all propaganda against US imperialism while awaiting Nixon. The whole capitalist world gave the journey great publicity, trying to create the impression that the journey of this rabid anti-Communist would "change the course of history".

The President had hardly recovered from his journey when he was received by Mao Tse-tung. As far as we know, this has never occurred previously: Mao has always received guests at the end of their visit. Mao received Nixon in his study, and on the table where the President leaned his elbows was a pile of books to let. Nixon know that he was dealing with "great thinker".

The banquet put on by the Chinese was magnificent". Chou En-lai spoke as though he were addressing an old dear friend and not an executioner. And the orchestra played "America the Beautiful".

Nixon' s visit to Peking and the welcome he received there constitute a victory for US imperialism and for Nixon personally.. The Sino-American communiqué issued at the end of the, visit is the most disgraceful document conceivable.

April 17th., 1972:
At the beginning of April a government delegation went to Peking to sign an agreement on Chinese agricultural credits to Albania. Chou En-lad received the delegation. He was completely silent about the victories of the Vietnamese people in their war with the Americans and their puppets. Why? Because relations, between China and Vietnam are not good, and there is no doubt that this is because of the course the Chinese are pursuing towards Nixon, whom the Vietnamese rightly regard as a war criminal.
April 22nd., 1972:
Yesterday our government delegation returned from China. On the economic front all went satisfactorily but on political questions there was complete silence.

The Chinese comrades say that the Vietnamese are "two-faced". Clearly the situation between China and Vietnam is unhealthy."

June 21st., 1972
Henry Kissinger, chief adviser to US President Nixon, has been in Peking for three days.

Many kinds of protocol can be observed. With the Albanians, whom the Chinese describe as their "closest friends", they apply the protocol of completely ignoring them.. We were told nothing of the fact that Kissinger was to go to Peking, let alone what was to be discussed. We learned of his visit only from the press.

July 22nd., 1972:
At last, after nearly eleven months, the Chinese comrades have given us some official information about the "ultra leftists" or "the Lin Piao plot".

According to this information, Lin Piao had conspired to assassinate Mao and had gathered, his men for an armed uprising. When this plot was discovered, on the morning of September 13th., 1971, he fled by aircraft in the direction of the Soviet Union, but the plane crashed and burned out in Mongolia. From what the Chinese say, Lin was "closely linked with the Soviets".

Was Lin Piao in agreement over the talks with Kissinger and the decisions which were taken? On this they are silent, not saying a word. Why?!

This very important point remains unexplained by the Chinese comrades. But this does not surprise us because it is neither the first, nor the last unexplained point.

How was it possible that the Minister of Defence of China and "Vice-Chairman of the Party, who entrusted the arrangements for his flight to his son, the Deputy-Commander of the entire Chinese air force should select an aircraft without a proper crew, without a radio, with insufficient fuel, which would crash in Mongolia and be burned out like a child's toy. Also, it seems surprising that Lin Piao took off so precipitously, while his main collaborators stayed behind to await arrest. Could Lin Piao have been the victim of a conspiracy, summoned urgently to Peking by air, kidnapped, flown towards the Soviet Union and liquidated on the way? Officially we accept what the Chinese say, but time will explain everything.

July 30th., 1972:
The charge d'affaires of the Chinese Embassy in Chile has told our ambassador there: "The friends of Mao killed Lin Piao and the aicraft was shot down in Mongolia".
October 15th, 1972:
Our ambassador in Peking has transmitted to us the text of a conversation he had with a Chinese official who reported to him the Chinese government's reply to our requests in connection with the economic plan for 1975-80. For the time being the government "does not consider it possible to agree to these requests, on the grounds of "lack of resources". These excuses of theirs are not valid.

RED DAVE
22nd November 2011, 03:14
Frankly, I've seen more inciteful stuff written on lavatory walls.

What this clown fails to put forth is any kind of Marxist analysis as to why the Chinese were making a move towards the US other than the completely pedestrian notion of the Sino-Soviet conflict. What is completely missing is any kind of class analysis of Chinese society. Of course, this is impossible for Hoxha because the exact same kind of exploitative relationship existed in Albania.

RED DAVE

The Dark Side of the Moon
22nd November 2011, 03:18
Frankly, I've seen more inciteful stuff written on bathroom wall.

What this clown fails to put forth is any kind of Marxist analysis as to why the Chinese were making a move towards the US other than the completely pedestrian notion of the Sino-Soviet conflict. What is completely missing is any kind of class analysis of Chinese society. Of course, this is impossible for Hoxha because the exact same kind of exploitative relationship existed in Albania.

RED DAVE
what he said, lol

Die Rote Fahne
22nd November 2011, 03:20
This does not belong in the theory subforum...

Ismail
22nd November 2011, 03:20
What this clown fails to put forth is any kind of Marxist analysis as to why the Chinese were making a move towards the US other than the completely pedestrian notion of the Sino-Soviet conflict.You're lying, Red Dave.

First off, both volumes are available in full online, so this thread isn't necessary. I'd also say that the extracts given don't illuminate much of anything.

See:
* http://www.enverhoxha.ru/Archive_of_books/English/enver_hoxha_reflections_on_china_volume_I_eng.pdf
* http://www.enverhoxha.ru/Archive_of_books/English/enver_hoxha_reflections_on_china_volume_II_eng.pdf

In Volume II (starting from p. 760) there is an analysis made by Hoxha titled "Can the Chinese Revolution Be Called a Proletarian Revolution?"

Finally there is Imperialism and the Revolution, which further discusses the class nature of China and the petty-bourgeois content of Maoism in its second part: http://enver-hoxha.net/content/content_english/books/books-imperialism_and_revolution.htm

I am moving this to History.

Die Rote Fahne
22nd November 2011, 03:27
If I start posting The Mass Strike, Junius Pamphlet copypasta everywhere, how long before it's considered spam?

Agent Equality
22nd November 2011, 03:29
Oh look! Another pointless Tir1944 thread :rolleyes:
History is history nontheless. I'll read out of boredom

Ismail
22nd November 2011, 03:30
some unimportant stalinist drivel"Unimportant"? It's an account of the rocky relations between Albania and China which later led to the Sino-Albanian split. This split demonstrated that there was only one socialist country on earth, and it was the People's Socialist Republic of Albania. The split further demonstrated that Maoism was objectively an anti-Marxist theory opposed to proletarian revolution and opposed to the scientific road of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin.

Edit: You edited it out, but the point still stands.

mrmikhail
22nd November 2011, 03:31
Well while on the topic of Maoist revision, why not have Ted Grant's view on the matter ;)

Ted Grant


Nixon-Mao—What Talks Mean

Written: March 1972
Source: Militant, no. 94 (March 3, 1972)

The Nixon-Mao and Chou-Nixon talks mark a new stage in the grim game of world diplomacy and power politics. What do they mean, and what effect will they have on the lives of the people of Asia and the world? Militant, more than seven years ago, predicted the inevitability of the American imperialists and the Chinese Stalinist bureaucracy trying to arrive at some sort of agreement.

No real agreement was reached in Peking, unless a secret understanding, which has not been published, was made. The Chinese bureaucracy is determined to gain control of Taiwan (Formosa), which they consider as a province of China. But the first concession by America, though vague, was the agreement “at some time in the future” for the withdrawal of American troops from the island.

In the long run the Americans will have to sacrifice the Chiang Kai-Shek clique.

The basis of attempted compromise is that all powers, imperialist as well as Stalinist, are for the status quo and against social revolution in the West. A successful socialist revolution in any of the big industrialised countries would undermine not only the power of the imperialist states, but the Stalinist deformed workers’ state as well. It would, by the example of workers’ democracy, rouse the workers and peasants of Russia and China to carry through a political revolution and establish genuine workers’ democracy there too, as in the days of Lenin and Trotsky.

Despite all the attempts at agreement with the capitalist powers of the West, these must in the long run break down because of the fundamental antagonism between the capitalist states and the non-capitalist basis of Russia and China.

In the aims of the Russian and Chinese bureaucracies, are purely nationalist considerations.

The attempt by American imperialism at world overlordship has collapsed catastrophically in the jungles of Vietnam. At the same time the policy of isolation and confrontation with the Chinese People’s Republic has failed in its purpose. China is gaining massive strength industrially, with every year. The reactionary aim of overthrowing the Chinese regime and restoring Chiang Kai-Shek and capitalism on the mainland, the dream of Dulles, has been shown as beyond the power of American capitalism.


Stalinists

On the other hand, the clearly nationalist policy of Chinese Stalinism has been revealed more and more clearly by events. Nixon, in his State of the Nation message to Congress, preparing for a change of American policy on China, said:

“For centuries China dominated its neighbours, culturally and politically. In the last 150 years it has been subjected to massive foreign intervention. Thus China’s attitude to foreign countries retains elements of aloofness, suspicion and hostility. Under communism, these historically shaped attitudes have been sharpened by doctrines of violence and revolution, proclaimed more often than followed in foreign relations.”

In other words, the revolutionary mouthings from Peking are taken none too seriously at the State Department in Washington. The Peking leaders, like the Russian Stalinists, are now committed to a policy of power politics in the interests of the ruling caste of managers, bureaucrats, army officers and the other privileged people in China. They are not interested in world socialism or the interests of the Chinese workers and peasants, or the working class of the world, but engage in the same filthy game of power politics as the Russian Stalinists have done for decades. Their policy is dictated, both in home and foreign affairs, by considerations of enhancing the prestige, power, privilege and income of the ruling caste.


Supported Yahya

Hence while pretending to stand for the rights of national freedom of all peoples, in the recent suppression of the Bengali people of East Bengal they backed to the limit the shameful regime of Yahya Khan, and gave unstinting support to this reactionary theocratic-landlord-capitalist dictatorship in its war with India. In this reactionary stance they found themselves in the same boat as the imperialist United States. Russia, for its own ends, backed capitalist-landlord India. None of them were in the least concerned about the interests of the workers and peasants, or the peoples of the sub-continent, or for furthering the interests of world socialism.

The pleasantries exchanged between the representatives of China and Russia at the United Nations on the Indo-Pakistan issue were nauseating, coming from representatives of states where at least landlordism and capitalism have been abolished. This was much to the amusement of the imperialist powers. This was reflected in the press and radio of the two countries. Pravda on December 9th 1971, declared:

“The Maoists tried by every means to worm their way into East Pakistan and, with the help of agents, preached a people’s war there. On the other hand, they proclaimed their support for the military regime in Pakistan, trying to turn it into an instrument of their chauvinist Great Power line in Asia. They are profoundly indifferent to the Pakistani people’s real interests and regard Pakistan as just a puppet in their filthy game on the international scene…”

The Chinese Stalinists replied in kind.

Since the quarrel between the two mighty wings of Stalinism in China and Russia, they have ranted and raved against each other, and each has tried to arrive at an agreement with American imperialism at the other’s expense. In April 1970, Red Flag, organ of the Chinese Stalinists, declared that the Soviet Union had “intensified its transformation into a fascist dictatorship, and practices a policy of aggression and collusion with American imperialism, its rival in the struggle for hegemony.” Similar accusations of collusion have been put forward by the Russian Stalinists, especially during the talks in Peking.

It is the desire of Chinese Stalinism to preserve the world status quo in social relations, while improving the position of the Chinese State in world affairs, which makes the attempt at agreement and compromise by American imperialism possible. In international affairs the Chinese leaders, at this stage, adopt the stance of Uriah Heep: they are very “humble”, they do not wish to be a superpower, but on the contrary defend the interests of the small and defenceless powers. Their position on Pakistan is sufficient comment on these pretensions. But their calculation is to win the support of the small powers, especially in the forum of the United Nations.


Power politics

That they are playing the grisly game of international power politics is shown by their support of Romania against the Soviet Union. Despite the enormous needs of the Chinese economy, they promised complete technical assistance and even complete installations to the Romanians. General Huang Yung-Chen, the Chinese chief of staff, praised the Romanian army, which he said “…refused to take orders from the U.S.S.R.” Chou En-Lai declared on June 11th that both countries were “firmly opposed to the practice of power politics among nations,” and that China would support the Romanian Government and people, who had constantly opposed the bullying of small nations by a great one.” (i.e. Russia).

The split of Russia and China, despite the gloss put on their actions by the leaders of both countries, has nothing to do with socialism, but everything to do with the interests of the bureaucrats of both countries. Power and income and “face”, the preservation of their ruling position, is the main preoccupation of these rulers.

The incalculable achievements of the Russian and Chinese revolutions must not blind the workers to the criminal and totalitarian policies of both Russian and Chinese Stalinism. When thieves or bureaucrats fall out, facets of the truth are often revealed. The shameless attacks on each other show the real nationalist motivations of these regimes.


Lenin’s diplomacy

In world politics the scene is now dominated by the dance of the Three—the two super-powers of America and Russia, and the potential super-power of China. As they cavort and make postures in propaganda and manoeuvres against each other, one thing stands out: the diplomacy of both China and Russia has nothing in common with the diplomacy of Lenin! Lenin stood always for open diplomacy. One of the most popular slogans of the Bolshevik Government was “Publication of all Treaties”; the opposite of the secret talks between Chou and Nixon and Mao and Nixon.

The idea of Lenin’s diplomacy was to raise the level of understanding by the masses of the ghoulish and bloodstained policies of imperialism and capitalism, to raise the level of consciousness of the workers and their sense of social solidarity and internationalism. That was the prime purpose of diplomacy in the days of Lenin. This is entirely foreign to the policies of both the Russian and Chinese bureaucracies at the present time. In their blind nationalist thinking they are not in the least interested in the fate of the world working class; they seek only the aggrandisement of the Russian and Chinese States. In this, they ape the power politics of Western capitalism.


World is one

This presents enormous dangers to the workers of the world. The development of world technique and world economy has united the world as never before in history. The period since World War Two has seen the knitting of the world in communications and industry into a single commercial network. Events in any part of the world, nowadays, immediately have their repercussions, industrially and politically, in the rest of the world. That is why the principle of Socialist Internationalism is more relevant than ever before.

The Chinese would betray the revolution in Vietnam unhesitatingly if they could gain an advantage thereby. They would treat them as they have treated the national interests of Bangladesh. One of the few areas of agreement revealed in the communiqué was on the question of the national aspirations of Kashmir and the need for the troops of India to return to the former cease-fire lines in this area.

Of course, the Indian capitalists have played a shameful role in this area. But it is not delicate considerations of the democratic right of self-determination which bothers either imperialist America or Stalinist China, but the interests of their client state, or what is left of it, in West Pakistan. The interests of the nationally oppressed peoples of the world are so much small change to be bargained between Russia, China, and America and their imperialist rivals.


Socialist world

So far as the peoples of the world are concerned, no trips, agreements or pacts will serve the interests of peace. Only social revolution in the West and political revolution in the East can pave the way for peace and plenty for the peoples of the world.

A Socialist United States of Asia, of the Americas, and of Europe, joined together in a federation with the rest of the world, is the only road for this planet in the long run, if it is not to be destroyed by nuclear war.

Die Rote Fahne
22nd November 2011, 03:35
"Unimportant"? It's an account of the rocky relations between Albania and China which later led to the Sino-Albanian split. This split demonstrated that there was only one socialist country on earth, and it was the People's Socialist Republic of Albania. The split further demonstrated that Maoism was objectively an anti-Marxist theory opposed to proletarian revolution and opposed to the scientific road of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin.

Edit: You edited it out, but the point still stands.
The problem stems that, Tir1944 didn't post his opinion or ask questions about this, but merely copied and pasted it.

That's no different than if I copy and pasted Luxemburg's letters to Sophie Liebknecht and just left them there. They don't belong in a post, just copy and pasted.

If he wanted to link people the article, he should contact them via PM.

Ismail
22nd November 2011, 03:36
The problem stems that, Tir1944 didn't post his opinion or ask questions about this, but merely copied and pasted it.I'm aware.

RED DAVE
22nd November 2011, 03:41
What this clown fails to put forth is any kind of Marxist analysis as to why the Chinese were making a move towards the US other than the completely pedestrian notion of the Sino-Soviet conflict.
You're lying, Red Dave.Smile when you say that, pardner.

However, this is exactly the kind of shit I expect from you. When are you going to be honest and resign as History mod?


First off, both volumes are available in full online, so this thread isn't necessary.I agree. This thread belongs in Chit-Chat.


I'd also say that the extracts given don't illuminate much of anything.That's not my problem. I didn't post them.


See:
* http://www.enverhoxha.ru/Archive_of_books/English/enver_hoxha_reflections_on_china_volume_I_eng.pdf
* http://www.enverhoxha.ru/Archive_of_books/English/enver_hoxha_reflections_on_china_volume_II_eng.pdf I prefer to see:

http://icanhascheezburger.com/2008/05/09/funny-pictures-communist-cat-misunderstands-party/


In Volume II (starting from p. 760) there is an analysis made by Hoxha titled "Can the Chinese Revolution Be Called a Proletarian Revolution?"Do you really think that most of us are going to waste our time reading Hoxha while there are seven volumes available of Harry Potter?


Finally there is Imperialism and the Revolution, which further discusses the class nature of China and the petty-bourgeois content of Maoism in its second part: http://enver-hoxha.net/content/content_english/books/books-imperialism_and_revolution.htmWhy don't you digest it for us?


I am moving this to History.You are abusing your position as History mod. Why not resign now?

RED DAVE

Ismail
22nd November 2011, 03:42
When are you going to be honest and resign as History mod?I voluntarily gave it up days ago out of lack of interest, you imbecile.


Do you really think that most of us are going to waste our time reading Hoxha while there are seven volumes available of Harry Potter?Not my fault if you read Harry Potter.

Die Rote Fahne
22nd November 2011, 03:54
This thread, as most tir1944 threads, is devolving into a shit fest. It should be trashed.

tir1944
22nd November 2011, 04:07
I don't know why did it have devolve into a shitfest though.
If no one finds it interesting then it could be trashed i guess.I certainly found it very interesting but ok...
Don't know what's with all the aggressiveness and confrontations on this forum...:confused:

Ismail
22nd November 2011, 04:08
I don't know why did it have devolve into a shitfest though.
If no one finds it interesting then it could be trashed i guess.I certainly found it very interesting but ok...
Don't know what's with all the aggressiveness and confrontations on this forum...:confused:It's probably because most people believe you just found this off of a blog and then decided to post it for no other reason than "hey guys look what I found." No actual research, no theory, no history (although one can certainly start a historical discussion on the Sino-Albanian split as I'm trying to turn this thread into), etc.

mrmikhail
22nd November 2011, 04:11
It's probably because most people believe you just found this off of a blog and then decided to post it for no other reason than "hey guys look what I found." No actual research, no theory, no history (although one can certainly start a historical discussion on the Sino-Albanian split as I'm trying to turn this thread into), etc.

I added to the historical discussion by putting in a view from another Communist.....

tir1944
22nd November 2011, 04:14
I see...indeed this thread would be good to take a turn into that direction.
As for why i posted it:i had read this particular compilation some time ago but i came upon it recently and though that it might be good to share it with whoever's interested.
Anyway,I'm afraid i'm not really confident about my ability to do "actual research" or theory yet...


I added to the historical discussion by putting in a view from another Communist.....
Yes and it seems that your source obviously enjoys calling Mao and Co. "Stalinists" for some reason...

mrmikhail
22nd November 2011, 04:18
Yes and it seems that your source obviously enjoys calling Mao and Co. "Stalinists" for some reason...

Which they were, need I note the Sino-Soviet split happened because the USSR after Stalin died had "de-stalinisation" and Maoists were against revisionism as they agreed with Stalin.

Die Rote Fahne
22nd November 2011, 04:19
I see...indeed this thread would be good to take a turn into that direction.
As for why i posted it:i had read this particular compilation some time ago but i came upon it recently and though that it might be good to share it with whoever's interested.
Anyway,I'm afraid i'm not really confident about my ability to do "actual research" or theory yet...


Yes and it seems that your source obviously enjoys calling Mao and Co. "Stalinists" for some reason...
A rose by any other name...

tir1944
22nd November 2011, 04:20
Which they were.
According to who and according to what criteria,comrade?

mrmikhail
22nd November 2011, 04:28
According to who and according to what criteria,comrade?

Why do you think Hoxha, a Stalin loving Stalinist, supported China until the meeting with Nixon? Ever think that it was because Maoists and Stalinists were one in the same at the time with a different head of the cult of personality? Ever cross your mind?

Ismail
22nd November 2011, 04:38
Hoxha visited (for the first and last time) Mao in 1956 and his impression of him wasn't too good, with Mao saying that Stalin's policy vis-à-vis Yugoslavia was "incorrect," that Stalin made "mistakes," etc. But by the beginning of 1960 both Albania and China were espousing very similar lines and held very similar views on the character of the USSR and the course of Khrushchev and Co. This naturally made both enjoy good relations. But, as Hoxha's Reflections on China shows, from the start these relations weren't very strong ideologically outside of a shared view of Soviet state-capitalism and social-imperialism.

Hoxha for instance disagreed with China's focus on territorial disputes, its initial attempts to reconcile with the Soviet revisionist leadership in the name of "unity," the "Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution," Maoism as a "new stage" in Marxist-Leninist thought, and then came Mao's "Three Worlds Theory" which was blatantly revisionist and Nixon's visit to Beijing was when relations on a state level between Albania and China went downwards.

Die Rote Fahne
22nd November 2011, 04:41
Hoxha first visited Mao in 1956 and his impression of him wasn't too good, with Mao saying that Stalin's policy vis-à-vis Yugoslavia was "incorrect," that Stalin made "mistakes," etc. But by the beginning of 1960 both Albania and China were espousing very similar lines and held very similar views on the character of the USSR and the course of Khrushchev and Co. This naturally made both enjoy good relations. But, as Hoxha's Reflections on China shows, from the start these relations weren't very strong ideologically outside of a shared view of Soviet state-capitalism and social-imperialism.

Hoxha for instance disagreed with China's focus on territorial disputes, its initial attempts to reconcile with the Soviet revisionist leadership in the name of "unity," the "Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution," Maoism as a "new stage" in Marxist-Leninist thought, and then came Mao's "Three Worlds Theory" which was blatantly revisionist and Nixon's visit to Beijing was when relations on a state level between Albania and China went downwards.
Which is why it would be correct, in my opinion, to say that Maoism is a branch of Stalinism.

Ismail
22nd November 2011, 04:42
Which is why it would be correct, in my opinion, to say that Maoism is a branch of Stalinism.Only in the same sense that Bernsteinism was a "branch" of Marxism.

Die Rote Fahne
22nd November 2011, 04:47
Only in the same sense that Bernsteinism was a "branch" of Marxism.
I disagree. Bernstein disregarded the end result, the revolution. Ergo, abandoning a core principle of Marxism, ending any notion that he was a Marxist. As if I abandoned the dictatorship of the proletariat.

What can equal that in terms of Mao and Stalin? Mao had his "additions", but he did not have a fundamental disagreement which would remove him from the Stalinist spectrum.

tir1944
22nd November 2011, 04:56
This whole notion of "Stalinist spectrum" could make sense only if Stalinism indeed existed as an ideology "outside of the spectrum of Leninism".

Ismail
22nd November 2011, 05:01
What can equal that in terms of Mao and Stalin? Mao had his "additions", but he did not have a fundamental disagreement which would remove him from the Stalinist spectrum.Mao fundamentally distorted class struggle through his "Three Worlds Theory," he posited the leading role of the peasantry in the revolution, he denied the monolithic unity of the party in favor of the eternal existence of two or more lines, and the economic doctrines of the Maoists were not far from that of the Soviet revisionists.

On the lattermost subject see: http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv12n2/shanghai.htm

Die Rote Fahne
22nd November 2011, 05:02
This whole notion of "Stalinist spectrum" could make sense only if Stalinism indeed existed as an ideology "outside of the spectrum of Leninism".
It does. Stalin was a perverter of Leninist theory.

@Ismail, will read and look into it.

tir1944
22nd November 2011, 05:10
It does. Stalin was a perverter of Leninist theory.So finally we got to this.Good.
Now,how and in what way was Stalin a perverter of Leninst theory.When exactly did he start perverting it? Did he started doing it before or after Lenin died? Or had he always been a "perverter"?

Ismail
22nd November 2011, 05:15
So finally we got to this.Good.
Now,how and in what way was Stalin a perverter of Leninst theory.When exactly did he start perverting it? Did he started doing it before or after Lenin died? Or had he always been a "perverter"?How about this has nothing to do with the topic and I'd really prefer if you didn't try to troll?

tir1944
22nd November 2011, 05:18
I'm not trolling,sorry for the oftopic.It's just that DRF's whole argument is based on this ("Stalinism" being something other than Leninism etc),and i don't want to open a thread about "Stalin as a perverter of Leninism" since i feel people would shit on it even more.

Ocean Seal
22nd November 2011, 05:25
I for one found Tir's OP both useful and interesting. I wouldn't have stumbled upon it otherwise. It really makes me reassess the class character of Mao, at least in his later years.

Die Rote Fahne
22nd November 2011, 05:27
I for one found Tir's OP both useful and interesting. I wouldn't have stumbled upon it otherwise. It really makes me reassess the class character of Mao, at least in his later years.

Yes, however, this is not Marxists.org or another archive of literature. Nor is it a library of copy and pasted articles.

This is a forum for discussion, and the OP is supposed to be the initiator of the discussion. Not the provider of articles with no analysis, opinion or questions.

mrmikhail
22nd November 2011, 05:33
Yes, however, this is not Marxists.org or another archive of literature. Nor is it a library of copy and pasted articles.

This is a forum for discussion, and the OP is supposed to be the initiator of the discussion. Not the provider of articles with no analysis, opinion or questions.

That is only partially true, such as on the on going struggles, most posts there are news articles copy/pasted and such to let others know of what is going on.....

Even this *could* have been something of a discussion had Tir posted something more relevant from the diary instead of random bits of it, and then asked people's opinions on it, or something of that nature.

Die Rote Fahne
22nd November 2011, 05:51
That is only partially true, such as on the on going struggles, most posts there are news articles copy/pasted and such to let others know of what is going on.....

Even this *could* have been something of a discussion had Tir posted something more relevant from the diary instead of random bits of it, and then asked people's opinions on it, or something of that nature.

Perhaps you're right. Though, his post here was no relevant, like the news posts in threads of the Ongoing Struggles forum.

mrmikhail
22nd November 2011, 05:57
Perhaps you're right. Though, his post here was no relevant, like the news posts in threads of the Ongoing Struggles forum.

I can agree there, Tir should have formed this thread much better, instead of randomly posting from Hoxha's diaries and saying nothing else with it.

RED DAVE
22nd November 2011, 10:37
When are you going to be honest and resign as History mod?
I voluntarily gave it up days ago out of lack of interest, you imbecile.Sorry I didn't notice. What you mean is that your political bias was so obvious that you were constantly being attacked for it. Why not finish the job and resign as a Global Moderator as well?


Do you really think that most of us are going to waste our time reading Hoxha while there are seven volumes available of Harry Potter
Not my fault if you read Harry Potter.Not my fault that you're a Stalinist. At least Harry and his buddies could tell who their enemy was.

RED DAVE

Ismail
22nd November 2011, 10:49
What you mean is that your political bias was so obvious that you were constantly being attacked for it.I don't recall that being brought up except you by and S.Artesian, and S.Artesian hasn't been doing too good with moderators lately.


Sorry I didn't notice.Of course you didn't, you prefer to just go into threads and attack others without reading their contents, or even noticing who is and isn't a moderator.

RED DAVE
22nd November 2011, 12:28
What you mean is that your political bias was so obvious that you were constantly being attacked for it.
I don't recallYou have a very selective memory.


that being brought up except you by and S.Artesian, and S.Artesian hasn't been doing too good with moderators lately.There have been plenty of others. But you "don't recall." As to S.Artesian, I have my own explanation why he "hasn't been doing too good with moderators lately." Neither have I for that matter.


Sorry I didn't notice.
Of course you didn't, you prefer to just go into threads and attack others without reading their contentsYeah. You're right. That's exactly what I do. I'm just a bad dude. Never read nothin'. Don't know nothin' 'bout history.


or even noticing who is and isn't a moderator.Considering the fact that for some reason I can't fathom, you're still a global moderator, I think my error is trivial.

And, of course, you are evading the fact that your Stalinism, and the historic lies that you propagate, makes you incompetent as a history or any other kind of mod.

RED DAVE

Ismail
22nd November 2011, 14:20
And, of course, you are evading the fact that your Stalinism, and the historic lies that you propagate, makes you incompetent as a history or any other kind of mod.Then your issue is with the rules of RevLeft, which do in fact allow "Stalinists" like myself, khad, Rjevan and others to post and hold positions of responsibility.

RED DAVE
22nd November 2011, 14:23
Then your issue is with the rules of RevLeft, which do in fact allow "Stalinists" like myself, khad, Rjevan and others to post and hold positions of responsibility.No, my issue isn't your Stalinism per se but the fact that you propagate obvious historic lies, starting with the obvious one that the USSR, China and Albania had anything to do with socialism other than as its negation.

RED DAVE

Roach
22nd November 2011, 15:24
No, my issue isn't your Stalinism per se but the fact that you propagate obvious historic lies, starting with the obvious one that the USSR, China and Albania had anything to do with socialism other than as its negation.

RED DAVE

Yes it is, or this horrible disease called Stalinism damaged his brain, now he lost control of his own body and mind. The horrific virus forces him to read about the USSR and Socialist Albania, view the said countries in a positive light and propagate obvious historic lies about them. We must find the cure, immediatly!

Seriously, a considerable amount of users of this forum holds similar or virtually the same views of Ismail regarding the USSR and Albania, I cannot immagine any political exchange of informations or knowledge happening under such rampant sectarianism.

mrmikhail
22nd November 2011, 17:00
Then your issue is with the rules of RevLeft, which do in fact allow "Stalinists" like myself, khad, Rjevan and others to post and hold positions of responsibility.

So you are saying we might need to hold some great purges? :ohmy:

Agent Equality
22nd November 2011, 18:44
So you are saying we might need to hold some great purges? :ohmy:

I bet that's what they would want if given the chance :rolleyes:

Ismail
23rd November 2011, 13:45
Bill Bland, one of the foremost defenders of Hoxha, wrote a good book on China under Mao back in 1997 titled Class Struggles in China:
http://ml-review.ca/aml/China/historyofmao.html
http://ml-review.ca/aml/China/historyofmaopt2.html
http://ml-review.ca/aml/China/historyofmaopt3.html
http://ml-review.ca/aml/China/historyofmaopt4.html
http://ml-review.ca/aml/China/historyofmaopt5.html

RED DAVE
23rd November 2011, 14:58
Yes it is, or this horrible disease called Stalinism damaged his brain, now he lost control of his own body and mind. The horrific virus forces him to read about the USSR and Socialist Albania, view the said countries in a positive light and propagate obvious historic lies about them. We must find the cure, immediatly!The cure is revolutionary workers democracy. Unfortunately, most Stalinsits, Maoists and Hoxhaists are allergic to this.


Seriously, a considerable amount of users of this forum holds similar or virtually the same views of Ismail regarding the USSR and Albania, I cannot immagine any political exchange of informations or knowledge happening under such rampant sectarianism.The problem is not sectarianism.

I am willing to work with people from any tendency. However, having worked with Stalinists and Maoists over a long period of time, I know what to expect from them inside an arena: a strong tendency towards bureaucratic functioning and a willingness to use undemocratic tactics at any moment. I have experienced this in the labor, civil rights and antiwar movements. Around the third time a group you are a member of gets torpedoed by members of the same tendency, a certain wariness begins to arise.

As to Hoxhaists, they are few and far between in the USA, but given their political inheritance, I don't expect much.

By the way, in my extensive functioning in OWS in the past two plus months, I have seen very little of the above-mentioned tendencies, beyond some banner waving and leaflet distributions at marches and demos.

RED DAVE

Ismail
23rd November 2011, 15:01
As to Hoxhaists, they are few and far between in the USA, but given their political inheritance, I don't expect much.Historically the PLA distrusted the American Communists and refused to recognize an "official" Communist Party in the USA due to fears of CIA infiltration. The largest pro-Albania party was the MLPUSA, although it certainly wasn't "orthodox" and criticized Albania from ultra-left positions a number of times.

RED DAVE
23rd November 2011, 15:04
Historically the PLA distrusted the American Communists and refused to recognize an "official" Communist Party in the USA due to fears of CIA infiltration. The largest pro-Albania party was the MLPUSA, although it certainly wasn't "orthodox" and criticized Albania from the ultra-left a number of times.Hoxhaism, of any flavor, is about as politically relevant as [INSERT THE NAME OF YOUR FAVORITE WEIRD-ASS TENDENCY].

RED DAVE

Ismail
23rd November 2011, 15:05
Hoxhaism, of any flavor, is about as politically relevant as [INSERT THE NAME OF YOUR FAVORITE WEIRD-ASS TENDENCY].

RED DAVEExcept, you know, various parties considered themselves pro-Albanian in the 70's and 80's. A number still do, notably the PCMLE in Ecuador, PCR in Brazil, etc.

Yazman
23rd November 2011, 15:18
Okay, Yeah, I am a big Marxist-Leninist. But can you please stop making stupid-as-shit threads that have absolutely no point?

It's fucking dumb.

Can you please stop making stupid-as-shit posts that contribute absolutely nothing to the topic? If I see you make a post like this, flaming anybody, again then you're getting infracted straightup.

I'm sick and tired of seeing people blatantly flaming and trolling every time they see tir1944 make a topic. I honestly don't give a shit about how much you like him or not, or whether it's justified or not, because the rules state that no flaming is allowed anywhere on Revleft.

Any more flames, by anybody, in this topic, are going to result in an infraction.

The discussion is reasonable at the moment, keep it that way.

thesadmafioso
23rd November 2011, 15:25
Are we seriously threatening infractions towards people who 'flame' in a topic intrinsically designed with such an intent at its foundation? Tir has a well known habit for diverting productive discussion into hopelessly irrelevant flame wars, and such a tendency is hardly invisible in this instance. If this topic had not already been moved about to the extent which it has been, I would of trashed it long ago.

Yes, many posters could likely be seen to of flamed others in the course of this topic, but could we really expect anything else from a topic that is quite literally just a collection of copy pasted Hoxha quotations and excerpts?

Yazman
23rd November 2011, 17:00
Are we seriously threatening infractions towards people who 'flame' in a topic intrinsically designed with such an intent at its foundation? Tir has a well known habit for diverting productive discussion into hopelessly irrelevant flame wars, and such a tendency is hardly invisible in this instance. If this topic had not already been moved about to the extent which it has been, I would of trashed it long ago.

Yes, many posters could likely be seen to of flamed others in the course of this topic, but could we really expect anything else from a topic that is quite literally just a collection of copy pasted Hoxha quotations and excerpts?

This isn't the appropriate place for discussion and it's an off-topic post. The rules clearly state flaming isn't allowed under any circumstances. If you have a problem with Tir or the warning post about it in the mod forum. Don't make an off topic post in this thread again.

RED DAVE
23rd November 2011, 18:07
Just as an interesting point, the PCMLE has five seats in the Ecuadorean National Assembly wich means that they are junior partners in running a capitalist regime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist%E2%80%93Leninist_Communist_Party_of_Ecuado r

RED DAVE

Atsushi
23rd November 2011, 18:22
In Tunisia's recently elected Constituent Assembly there is a communist party (PCOT) which is part of Unity and Struggle, the 'Hoxhaist' international organisation.

thesadmafioso
23rd November 2011, 18:57
This isn't the appropriate place for discussion and it's an off-topic post. The rules clearly state flaming isn't allowed under any circumstances. If you have a problem with Tir or the warning post about it in the mod forum. Don't make an off topic post in this thread again.

That was my point, this thread did not have a topic to begin with and therefore nothing that has been posted here can really qualify as being either on or off topic.

I never actually defended the flaming undertaken by anyone, I simply said that it was being goaded out of users by the framework of this topic and that such should be recognized.

Ismail
24th November 2011, 02:50
Just as an interesting point, the PCMLE has five seats in the Ecuadorean National Assembly wich means that they are junior partners in running a capitalist regime.It's actually very interesting in light of the fact that they hate Correa and when they made this clear only a year ago everyone on RevLeft suddenly said that the PCMLE was an evil CIA/ultra-left/Stalinist/whatever organization which hates the glorious Correa and his mighty regime of the masses or whatever. Their 1999 Presidential candidate was also assassinated and the PCMLE blamed the USA.

Also technically the MPD (its front) has those seats. The PCMLE is, last time I checked, prohibited from campaigning because it's technically illegal.

Yazman
25th November 2011, 06:16
That was my point, this thread did not have a topic to begin with and therefore nothing that has been posted here can really qualify as being either on or off topic.

I never actually defended the flaming undertaken by anyone, I simply said that it was being goaded out of users by the framework of this topic and that such should be recognized.

Well, I'm not going to go over your head here since this IS your board and I feel that admins & globals should respect that.

I do see your point. Be it trolling or not though they're still not allowed to flame. However, if you think the topic is crap or just here to troll others, just close or trash it in future.

Otherwise you can revert my warning if you feel strongly about it. I'm cool with that. I'm willing to allow that given it's your forum.