whats the big deal with jews

[jd43]

whats the big deal with jews? like i never understood why they were blamed for WWII and why hitler hated them so much? and why do they blame them for killing jesus? i mean even if judas betrayed jesus and if thats to blame isnt that a bit harsh that they are blaming a whole type of people over one persons actions? yeah that was messed up but i mean were humans right and we are animals to some extent so idk. also i hear a lot of people saying that jews control the world or stuff like that, can anyone address this?

if anyone can explain the whole deal with jews than id appreciate. all points of view welcomed, i am a noob at this forum and im genuinly intrigued to anyones viewpoint.

[Smyg]

Small, culturally isolated group outside of mainstream society. The perfect scapegoat.

[Blackscare]

What Smyg said, essentially. Nationalist/Fascist politics usually relies heavily on having an "enemy from within" to agitate against, and the Jews make a perfect scapegoat in many countries. The state of Israel has done it's part to exacerbate anti-semetism through it's brutal apartheid policies. While there are many principled, non anti-semetic opponents of the state of Israel, it's very easy for certain groups to parlay that into out-and-out anti-semetism.

Antisemetic conspiracies are strange because they tend to contradict each other quite a bit. For instance, one common myth is that the international Communist movement is controlled by "the jews", which stems from the fact that ethnic Jews were a large percentage of the Bolshevik's membership (particularly in the Cheka, IIRC). That flies in the face of another very common conspiracy, that Jews somehow control the world banking system (in other words, that they control the world capitalist economy, yet somehow also want to overthrow it).

[Zealot]

If you think that Communists believe this you are terribly confused. This is what WNs and neo-Nazis believe. Their reasoning is basically this:

- The Great Depression preceding WWII was blamed on bankers, a lot of bankers were Jews, therefore everything was the Jew's fault.

- Jews at the time of Jesus saw him as blasphemous, when Pilate addressed the crowd saying he found nothing criminal about Jesus, the crowd were still asking for him to be crucified. It's a common theme in the Bible but the story is a lot bigger than this with many people involved.

- Jews "control the world" because they are a vocal lot in certain governments, many people in the media are Jewish etc. etc.

Antisemitism has had a long history and is a useless remnant of medieval thinking that should have no place in the modern world.

Doesn't mean we have any love for Zionists though.

[Smyg]

- The Great Depression preceding WWII was blamed on bankers, a lot of bankers were Jews, therefore everything was the Jew's fault.



And remember, the traditional stereotype of greedy Jewish moneylenders originates, to my knowledge, in that they were essentially forced to the job when the Pope declared loans with interest wasn't kosher for Christians.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Guilt by association.

Economic crisis was blamed on bankers.

Many bankers are Jews.

Therefore Jews must have caused the economic crisis!

It really is a primitive way of looking at a situation.

It would be like if I said Spicy food is responsible for heartburn.

Mexicans make spicy food.

Therefore Mexicans cause heartburn!

[Smyg]

It seems obvious to me now that we need to put all Mexicans, Indians and other people with traditionally spicy cuisine in ghettos and work camps. It is the final solution to the heartburn problem.

:rolleyes:

[Stork]

• Outsiders and wanderers, so rumours about them could easily be accepted as fact
• Persecuted in europe for generations
• Prominent in banking community and political class (despite obviously most are working class) so they have an illusion of power
• Superstition about them has lasted since the middle-ages
• They aren't Christians
• Minority
• Many of the Bolsheviks, and the international supporters of the Russian revolution were Jews (because of how the Tsar oppressed them). So this meant the middle-classes had a reason to dislike them.

For these reasons the climate in the former central-powers meant that the Jews could easily have the loss in WWI and the subsequent loss of territory, unfair war-reparations and military limitations blamed on them. It's the same story with the Muslims nowadays or the Travelling community/gypsies.

[Jimmie Higgins]

whats the big deal with jews? like i never understood why they were blamed for WWII and why hitler hated them so much? and why do they blame them for killing jesus? i mean even if judas betrayed jesus and if thats to blame isnt that a bit harsh that they are blaming a whole type of people over one persons actions? yeah that was messed up but i mean were humans right and we are animals to some extent so idk. also i hear a lot of people saying that jews control the world or stuff like that, can anyone address this?

if anyone can explain the whole deal with jews than id appreciate. all points of view welcomed, i am a noob at this forum and im genuinly intrigued to anyones viewpoint.

There's historical anti-Judaism of feudal Europe where jews were repressed in many places for not being Christians. In some places jews were forced to live in separate enclaves, there were pogroms against jewish enclaves, and there were restrictions on the type of work jewish people could do. Because of these restrictions on Jews as well as restrictions on Christians charging interest on other Christians, jews were often forced into certain occupations such as "usury" or rent collection. These were considered marginal and seedy occupations and rent and interest collection obviously cause friction between the collector and the holder of the debt, so feudal rulers and the church were able to use that animosity along with their religion to whip up hatred. Out of this era probably comes a lot of the stereotypes of "greedy" jews.

Modern anti-semitism generally comes after these types of financial occupations went from being marginal to a much more accepted and important part of production. Laws against charging interest were dropped during the rise of protestantism and the beginnings of capitalism, but driving jews out of these positions and the usefulness of having a scapegoat meant that anti-jewish ideas were replaced by anti-semetic ideas. The difference being that in the feudal era, jews could convert and then were no longer subject to the attacks and restrictions on Jewish people. Modern anti-semitism has more to do with hatred and oppression of jews as a people, not as a religion - so even converts to Christianity were still targets of the NAZIs. So anti-semitism is about "inferior blood" not religion or, as in feudalism, one inferior caste among a whole hierarchy of castes.

Modern bigots adopted hatred against jews as part of their divide and rule schemes basically because it was readymade. They just adapted it to an "enlightenment-era" ideology by making it "scientific" (i.e genetic) hatred rather than religious hatred.

[Revolutionair]

My history teacher told me that the Jews were also forced into undesireable jobs during the Medieval period, namely the jobs of taxcollecters and rent collecters. This made them extremely unpopular amongst the population.

As Marxists, we should see this as one of the most important points, as we believe that work is central in someone's life. Being forced in the job of an outcast causes social segregation.

[jd43]

oh okay this is starting to make sense thanks for the help guys foreal. i guess it all makes sense in political fashion which is kinda messed up but hey you gottah do what you gottah do

with this answered this leads to my next question whats semetism, antisemitism, Zionism, anti-Zionism.

by the way im mexican -.- haha

[danyboy27]

Jewish communities where used by kings in the middle age to lend money with interest to the people.

Back in the day christian and jews where not permitted to lend money with interest to their own but where allowed to do so to their ''ennemies'', people who where not of the same faith.

The scheme was brilliant; the king would take a small jewish family, restrict their work occupation to lending money, give them money they would lend to other people with interest and reap the benefits.

When shit got sour the king could always blame the jews, deprive them from their possessions in the name of the people and avoid a potential revolution.

Such schemes lasted a lot of time and the social scars it done to society never really went away.

[jd43]

i part of me is thinking thats really messed up but then again i think having things or people to exploit that provide insurance are necessary precautions

[RadioRaheem84]

I think it has a lot to with jealousy too, much like with other minority groups that are marginalized.

Jews were cut off from the Christian culture of Europe and America, so they were able to challenge or break away from the traditional norms. They flourished in art, literature, science and everything else that wasn't bound to culture, tradition or norms.

They formed business ventures that were outside the norm for many other Europeans and Americans. They even had creative ideas for radical things that were outside the norm for most people at the time. I mean the same can be said for African Americans, Hispanics, and all other marginalized minority groups in the West.

[RedRevolution1938]

Jewish individuals do indeed dominate positions where they are in control of finance capital. This fact is used by nazis and various other anti-semites to make a sweeping generalization about the Jewish people and often claim it is part of some Jewish conspiracy to dominate the world, whether it is a Communist one or otherwise. It is quite contradictory.

Jews also happen to be CEOs of major media corporations. Nazis and other assorted bigots like to call anything that comes out of the media "The j00ish media" and they love to claim how they are so persecuted by such. Then they call it Communist and stick up for their capitalist masters; all while at the same time failing to realize the media companies are corporations themselves and depend on capital from other corporations via commercial time.

So they claim they are persecuted by the very people they stick up for. In other words, some of the dumbest mother fuckers out there. :lol:

I use to be an anti-semite when I was younger though; so I understand how they make the obviously false assertion that all Jews are bad simply because a couple occupy dominate positions within the capitalist structure. Not all anti-semites are beyond rehabilitation. :)

[RexCactus]

Opposition to Jews was rooted in religion (and in many ways still is), then spread to incorporate ethnicity (ethnic Jews, that is). Judaism was the only monotheistic faith amongst the old Mesopotamian faiths. That Abram of Ur would worship a singular deity as legitimate and above all was radical to everyone else in society. Still, though, persecution didn't intensify until after Yeshua ben Yosef Nazarani. There is a confusion surrounding the death of the "Christ," rooted around the "washing of hands" of Pontius Pilate, administrator of the area in which Jerusalem was. Many Jews were upset with Yeshua's essentially cult following at the time against the status quo of their faith and demanded his execution by crucifixion, which Pilate allowed. Since then, the interpretation has been split on religious grounds. The Catholic Church upheld that it was Pilate's doing (though he wasn't guilty of the death of Christ), as seen in the Nicene Creed ("Crucifíxus étiam pro nobis sub Póntio Piláto"). However, with the Protestant Reformation and the sheer number of illiterates incapable of reading the teachings of the Catholic Church, as well as the political infusion of religion, the Jews were blamed for Yeshua's death from a lack of understanding of their own faith. This combined with a classically European sense of nationalism and ethno-centrism at the time to target the ethnic Jews, culminating in their oppression in European politics, their systematic destruction during the Nazi Era, and now their not-quite-equality in the present day.

[Inner Peace]

all people have "under race".

Lets all admit it we all pick one other race that has different skin than us,different religion,... that they are different than us. An example of this is France. Who is cleaning roads,sewer, who does all the "dirty work" well black people do an France person will never do such work so they have an "under race" to do this for them - in this case this are black people.-sorry my English is bit rusty so i dont know the specific word for black people.

But it just happens that hitler really really hated Jews(and other people did to) why this:
Because Jews were always more successfully than other people, and hitler said: we are in crisis because of the Jews they have big stores you have an little store so you cant sell anything because of the Jews its all their fault,and people be leaved in this so here comes the hate for Jew people. but there are other "stories" to.

OFF TOPIC:

when Jews were at the "killing camps" The Germans said we give you an slight change that you will survive if you throw some other Jews in the kiln. So technically Germans didn't kill almost any Jew at their killing camps


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Stork]

oh okay this is starting to make sense thanks for the help guys foreal. i guess it all makes sense in political fashion which is kinda messed up but hey you gottah do what you gottah do

with this answered this leads to my next question whats semetism, antisemitism, Zionism, anti-Zionism.

by the way im mexican -.- haha
Semitic means relating to the middle-east. So, Persians, Arabs and Jews are all Semites, but in modern usage Semitic is relating to the Jews. Anti-Semitism is the name given to hatred, religious or Racial, towards Jews.
Zionism is the support of the formation of a Jewish state of Israel, anti-zionism means you are against this, but it's an outdate term nowadays because most people support the existence of a Jewish state, but it's usually used nowadays to anyone who supports Palestine's right to a state or criticizes the Israeli government ect. , alternatively "Zionism" is also often used to mean blind support of Israel and in favour of expansionism of the Jewish state by 'anti-zionists'.
Very few people who call themselves anti-zionist are anti-semites, but you do get some loud idiots.
Whoops, Semitic is a linguistic term relating to everything from Hebrew to Amharic and Arabic, so not just the middle-east but also the horn of Africa, North Africa too. But that's semantics.

[Veovis]

Semitic means relating to the middle-east. So, Persians, Arabs and Jews are all Semites, but in modern usage Semitic is relating to the Jews.[/EDIT]

Little quibble: Semite technically refers to a group that speaks a Semitic language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_language), so Persians don't count. Neither do Turks, FWIW.

[Revolutionair]

Semitic means relating to the middle-east. So, Persians, Arabs and Jews are all Semites, but in modern usage Semitic is relating to the Jews. Anti-Semitism is the name given to hatred, religious or Racial, towards Jews.
Whoops, Semitic is a linguistic term relating to everything from Hebrew to Amharic and Arabic, so not just the middle-east but also the horn of Africa, North Africa too. But that's semantics.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Semitic_languages.svg

[Jimmie Higgins]

Zionism, anti-Zionism.So Zionism is essentially the belief in the need for a jewish homeland and modern Zionism has its start in the late nineteenth century along with a whole range of various nationalist movements. It is a response to the oppression faced by Jewish people in Europe and the idea was that if there was a Jewish-run country, then people could be freed from oppression.

Israeli Zionists take it further and argue that the land occupied by Israel is destined to be the Jewish homeland, whereas earlier Zionists had a range of views. Even some of the early Israeli leaders who would later argue that Israel is the destined location were interested in various other possible locations. As a settler-state which can only have democracy and a "Jewish state" at the same time by disenfranchising (and removing) the non-Jewish population to maintain numerical dominance, modern Israeli Zionism is pretty vile and has been getting more and more desperate and crazy on the right-end of the spectrum (dragging the "labor Zionists" with them) as Israel has become more isolated and dependent on the US.

Anti-Zionism is simply people opposed to Israel occupying Palestine and denying equal rights to non-Jews (mostly non-jewish arabs). In the US, anti-zionism is conflated with anti-semitism and any criticism of Israeli forgin policy or US military and financial patronage of Israel is called anti-semetic. This is merely an attempt to make criticizing these things a third-rail. This isn't to say there aren't real anti-semites out there - there are and they should be opposed - but generally I have not seen any pro-Palestine activists support or welcome real anti-Semites.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Because Jews were always more successfully than other people
Most Jews were no more successful than most Christians if one takes a class-based analysis of the issue.

[Belleraphone]

I think it's important to discern between white anti-semtisim (WN's, neo-nazis, fascists) and arab anti-semitism. The former stems from irrationality and stupidity, as has been outlined by the other users in this thread. The latter is basically from Israel, they have this state that's opressing the Palestinians, taking their land and hogging all the water and then claims to be the sole representative of Jewish interests. How do you think the local Arabs are going to interpret that?

[tir1944]

I think it's important to discern between white anti-semtisim (WN's, neo-nazis, fascists) and arab anti-semitism. Antisemitism is antisemitism,be it white or black or...
Concepts such as "white" or "non-wite" antisemitism and mind-boggingly stupid.


The latter is basically from Israel, they have this state that's opressing the Palestinians, taking their land and hogging all the water and then claims to be the sole representative of Jewish interests. How do you think the local Arabs are going to interpret that? Antisemitism on the Middle East existed before Zionism even appeared anyway.
Also i'm rather disgusted by your apologism for antisemitism.Every thinking man can realize the difference between Jews and Zionists.

[Belleraphone]

Antisemitism is antisemitism,be it white or black or...
Concepts such as "white" or "non-wite" antisemitism and mind-boggingly stupid.

Antisemitism on the Middle East existed before Zionism even appeared anyway.
Also i'm rather disgusted by your apologism for antisemitism.Every thinking man can realize the difference between Jews and Zionists.
The OP asked where anti-semitism comes from, I think it's appropriate that we answer his question. If you want to ignore the fact that different people hate jews for different reasons, then keep thinking that. But there is a different reason that the Neo-nazis hate the Jews and the Arab hate the jews. If you don't want to learn the difference then it will be harder to combat anti-semitism, so really you're only allowing it to continue.

Anti-semitism existed before in the ME, but not in the same scale that it does today. Jews and Arabs used to dance in the street together in Palestine prior to the state of Israel.
I never was an apologist for anti-semitism, don't know where you're getting that from. I'd say you need to stop making stuff up and try to argue in a rational, reasonable manner.

[tir1944]

Hmm,ok then,i think i misunderstood you and reacted improperly.
Apologies.

[Seth]

tir, he's saying Zionism spawns anti-semitism, basically.

[xub3rn00dlex]

all people have "under race".

No they do not. Black, white, yellow, blue, or green - it doesn't matter. Racism is a social construct meant to divide the working class.



Lets all admit it we all pick one other race that has different skin than us,different religion,... that they are different than us. An example of this is France. Who is cleaning roads,sewer, who does all the "dirty work" well black people do an France person will never do such work so they have an "under race" to do this for them - in this case this are black people.-sorry my English is bit rusty so i dont know the specific word for black people.

They're called black people, and fuck you for thinking that black people are not "French." That word you're looking for is racist, there are no "specific" words for black people. Workers always do dirty work, regardless of skin color. I guaran-fucking-tee you there are white, asian, latin people cleaning roads, sewers, etc.



But it just happens that hitler really really hated Jews(and other people did to) why this:
Because Jews were always more successfully than other people, and hitler said: we are in crisis because of the Jews they have big stores you have an little store so you cant sell anything because of the Jews its all their fault,and people be leaved in this so here comes the hate for Jew people. but there are other "stories" to.

Jews were not always more successful than other people. While anti-semitism was a big problem in Europe ( not only leading up to WW2, but pre and post ) to assert that they were more successful and place blame on them for that ( which is the way I interpret this ) is bullshit. What "other" stories do you care to share huh?




OFF TOPIC:

when Jews were at the "killing camps" The Germans said we give you an slight change that you will survive if you throw some other Jews in the kiln. So technically Germans didn't kill almost any Jew at their killing camps



q0IXsACBRco

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


Fuck you. The Nazis are completely innocent eh? It was the jews who did it to each other, that's it.

[Seth]

Lets all admit it we all pick one other race that has different skin than us,different religion,... that they are different than us. An example of this is France. Who is cleaning roads,sewer, who does all the "dirty work" well black people do an France person will never do such work so they have an "under race" to do this for them - in this case this are black people.-sorry my English is bit rusty so i dont know the specific word for black people. French people do that type of work, I'm sure. American people do. We had a whole TV series devoted to it, Dirty Jobs.

But the same type of thing goes on in Anglo-North America with immigrants from Mexico and Central America. It's their weakness and vulnerability that comes with their poverty and their status as immigrants - especially undocumented immigrants - that causes them to be easy targets for rightist ideologues of the ruling class.

"We" as humans don't naturally look at a "different" person and judge him or her to be worth less. That comes from outside. The prevalent ideas of any given time are those of the ruling class. Nationalism, racism, nativism, etc. come from a section of the ruling class and it's not a coincidence that they began around the rise of capitalism.

For modern nationalism and nativism such as that directed toward Latin immigrants here or Africans in Europe, it still comes from above, from capitalist institutions, media, and ideology. This doesn't mean that it's serious, or that anyone in the ruling class really wants to kick illegals out - take for example Lou Dobbs, a capitalist, who a few years back was one of the more rabid talking heads on TV denouncing free trade and immigration. (http://www.thenation.com/article/155209/lou-dobbs-american-hypocrite#node-155209)Turns out he uses illegals to maintain his estates and horses.

But, since politics under capitalism is used to get workers to oppose each other and/or support one or the other factions of capital, it's safe as long as someone doesn't try to act on it. Capital needs the cheap labor offered by Mexican and African immigrants.

[scourge007]

Jewish communities where used by kings in the middle age to lend money with interest to the people.

Back in the day christian and jews where not permitted to lend money with interest to their own but where allowed to do so to their ''ennemies'', people who where not of the same faith.

The scheme was brilliant; the king would take a small jewish family, restrict their work occupation to lending money, give them money they would lend to other people with interest and reap the benefits.

When shit got sour the king could always blame the jews, deprive them from their possessions in the name of the people and avoid a potential revolution.

Such schemes lasted a lot of time and the social scars it done to society never really went away.
It was basically because of this. My history professor went over this last week. To add to that though , the king would also take all the jews wealth and collect on their debts. The people who were indebted to them would then blame the jews for them owing money.