we need an equivalent word or phrase for "uncle toms" of feminism

[Lobotomy]

seriously, if there's anyone shittier than a male misogynist it's a female misogynist. Women who laugh along with sexist jokes, accept gender stereotypes put against them, or otherwise make excuses for sexism, just to be "one of the guys". it's fucking pathetic.

I'm not even trying to be rude or anything but w/e I'm pissed off. tbh I was probably like this just a little bit when I was younger.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Name for the Uncle Toms of the female gender? Ann Coulter?

[roy]

I know what you mean. The other day I met a girl who, I quote this in verbatim, said "all girls are sluts". She wasn't even saying this in jest, though; she was willing to argue about it.

I guess some girls are just as saturated by male chauvinism as a lot of guys are.

[Chambered Word]

I know what you mean. I've felt pretty weird talking feminism to women themselves before and not exactly finding an audience, honestly, fuck 'em.

[thefinalmarch]

The other day I met a girl who, I quote this in verbatim, said "all girls are sluts". She wasn't even saying this in jest, though; she was willing to argue about it.

Women who laugh along with sexist jokes, accept gender stereotypes put against them, or otherwise make excuses for sexism, just to be "one of the guys"
My best friend is exactly like this.

[Chambered Word]

what I can't stand either is when guys who think they're feminists treat right-wing women as if they're just stupid and that's why they hate feminism, it seems pretty sexist in itself. I still can't stand women who invite sexist men to metaphorically shit all over them though.

[Marxaveli]

Sarah Palin is the poster child for this description.

[dodger]

LIKE SLUTS.... AM A SLUT...Clueless as to why anyone should object. Call me a dirty old uncle tom if you like. If as I suspect one of your number is giving all you girls a bad name, tough. Ma's advice along with aunts"if you can't be good be careful!" They never considered reputation was a factor, small minded will always gossip. Men especially...it's the only time we converse.

[Jimmie Higgins]

LIKE SLUTS.... AM A SLUT...Clueless as to why anyone should object.I object to the idea that men liking sex is "normal" but that women who like sex are considered a separate derogatory category.

I think what you may be talking about is the idea of "reclaiming" words like "slut" and "*****". There's a debate there, I don't think reclaiming words actually changes much in the absence of some kind of concrete movement since racists are still more than happy to call people "nigger" or terrorize people they think are homosexual by calling them "queer". In fact I think it shows some pessimism and acceptance among anti-racists/anti-sexists of the idea that oppression can't be combated. "We can't hope to end bigotry, so let's try and neutralize the language of bigotry" is essentially the argument as I see it.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Sarah Palin is the poster child for this description.Yeah, she called herself a feminist even. To her, Feminism means women are free to choose... free to choose to enact laws and policies that will ensure that women can not choose what to do with their own bodies or jobs that pay the same as to men.

[Chambered Word]

Yeah, she called herself a feminist even. To her, Feminism means women are free to choose... free to choose to enact laws and policies that will ensure that women can not choose what to do with their own bodies or jobs that pay the same as to men.

We live in a time when any woman who shows some backbone is automatically labelled a feminist, it's fucking sad.

[RedAnarchist]

Aunt Phyllis, after Schlafly? The mother of the failure that created Conservapedia.

(If you don't know who she is, think of someone who would want The Handmaid's Tale to be real - in fact, there's one character in that book who was supposedly based on her).

[Smyg]

I know several women who want to 'get back in the kitchen'. It's... hard to bare.

[Lobotomy]

I know several women who want to 'get back in the kitchen'. It's... hard to bare.

well, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with an individual's choice to be a housewife, but it's when they go beyond that and say that that's a woman's place. for example, in 2008 when that asshat hillary clinton was running for president, I knew multiple women who actually promoted the idea that we should never have a woman president.

[Red Commissar]

Aunt Phyllis, after Schlafly? The mother of the failure that created Conservapedia.

(If you don't know who she is, think of someone who would want The Handmaid's Tale to be real - in fact, there's one character in that book who was supposedly based on her).

I was thinking about her too. I remember an interview on the radio a while back where she was basically going on about how Women should be proud about their traditional 'roles' because it prevents society from going to hell or something.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=134981902

But man she makes my head hurt just reading what she thinks is wrong with society.


MARTIN: Talk a little bit about the new book, if you would. What is it - your message in this book that you feel is particularly current for today?

Ms. SCHLAFLY: A lot of people don't understand what feminism is. They think it is about advance and success for women, but it's not that at all. It is about power for the female left. And they have this, I think, ridiculous idea that American women are oppressed by the patriarchy and we need laws and government to solve our problems for us. They have made their close alliance with the Obama administration. And they're always crying around about things like the differences between men and women are just a social construct. So they're really in a fight with human nature. I would not want to be called a feminist. The feminists don't believe in success for women and, of course, I believe that American women are the most fortunate people who ever lived on the face of the earth, can do anything they make up their minds to do.

I think people ought to understand what a large control the feminists have over the media, and that's why you don't hear some of the other side.

...

MARTIN: I understand what you're saying, except that - this is not to make a statement about whether women are oppressed or not, but simply to say they are not the majority in any of the major professions in this country, except the traditional female professions, like nursing and teaching. For example, only 30 percent of the lawyer members of the ABA are women. Only about 30 percent of the practicing physicians in this country are women and, of course, about 17 percent of members of both the House and the Senate are women.

The book makes the very strong argument that feminist ideology, as you define it, is dominating the academy, is basically dominating society, and I'm arguing with you about why you think that is when it would appear that women are still doing exactly what you would suggest that they should do.

Ms. SCHLAFLY: I think the main goal of the feminist movement was the status degradation of the full-time homemaker. They really wanted to get all women out of the homes and into the workforce. And again and again, they taught that the only fulfilling lifestyle was to be in the workforce reporting to a boss instead of being in the home reporting to a husband. That is an attitude toward marriage and homemaking that I think is intolerable and false.

MARTIN: There are some women who are rising stars in politics who are conservative women who have young children, like Kristi Noem of South Dakota, who is in Congress now. She's a freshman. Of course, there's Sarah Palin, who is a mother of five, still raising her children and is, of course, I think, by every measure a national star. Then, of course, there's Michele Bachmann.

What is your view of what they are doing?

Ms. SCHLAFLY: I think they've made choices that are very difficult, but they can do it very well. But you notice the feminists are angry at them. They cannot resist attacking Sarah Palin because they really don't believe in success for women. Those women you name are success by any standard whether you are like them or not. And you notice the deafening silence coming from the feminist movement after all those Republican pro-life women won last November 2nd.

MARTIN: Do you feel that feminism has made any contribution to American life?

Ms. SCHLAFLY: No. I think it's made women unhappy and it's to make them believe that we live in a discriminatory and unjust society, and that they should look to government to solve their problems

...

MARTIN: I'm just curious why you think that is. In 1959, for example, African Americans were more likely to be married than whites were, but now it's the reverse and I'm just wondering if you have an opinion about that.

Ms. SCHLAFLY: Yes. And you realize it's not poverty that's caused that, because all during the Great Depression the black family was intact and together and they didn't have these handouts. I think when Lyndon Johnson instituted lavish welfare, they gave the money only to the woman and that made the father irrelevant. He lacked his role, his duty as a provider so he took off. And that is just simply so unfortunate. The illegitimacy rate is now getting very large even across the board, among the white people. And it's too bad because we know that most of the social ills come out of mother-headed households. So if you're asking me for the cause, it doesn't really have anything to do with race. It has to do with the financial subsidies that were given to women making the father provider irrelevant.

...

MARTIN: You say in the book we should have a newfound respect for men. What did you mean by that?

Ms. SCHLAFLY: Well, I think the feminists are anti-men and anti-masculine. I think it starts in grade school. I have illustrations in the book of how elementary school is frequently very unfair to little boys, such as building new schools without recess or playgrounds. Boys are different from girls and they need to run around and work off some of that energy so they can come in and sit down and learn something. Then the way the feminists have tried to ban boys' sports in college. They have made the colleges ban 450 wrestling teams.

MARTIN: Why do you blame feminists for the decline in some of these college sports? Because there are number of people would argue that it's really the expense of a few sports deprive others, like swimming, for example. You know, you have to have a physical plant, you have to have a pool, you have to have insurance. Why do you think it's feminists?

Ms. SCHLAFLY: Well, I reject that notion. It's feminism because it is the radical feminists in the education department, first in the Carter administration and then in the Clinton administration, who've been dogging the life out of the colleges to cut the men's sports and do a bean counting operation to make sure just as many women as men are on sports teams, and in fact, they want it to be proportional, so that now we know they've chased so many men out of college - colleges are now 60/40 female to male - so they want 60 percent of the sports teams and scholarships to be female and that is absolutely ridiculous and unfair.

MARTIN: So girls shouldn't play sports?

Ms. SCHLAFLY: Girls can play sports if they want. They're plenty of opportunities for girls to play sports. But they will not do it in the same proportion as men.

MARTIN: As we mentioned, this is a Wisdom Watch conversation, so we always like to end by asking do you have some wisdom that you want to share?

Ms. SCHLAFLY: Well, yes, I would say, don't be taken in by feminism. Just remember American women are so fortunate. When I got married, all I wanted in the world was a dryer so I didn't have to hang up my diapers. And now women have paper diapers and all sorts of conveniences in the home. And it is the men and the technology that has made the home such a pleasant place for women to be. So I hope they will use that pleasant place to raise their children.

[dodger]

You make a good point Jimmie, reclaiming language is far from satisfactory, in essence. Having 5 younger sisters I learned pretty early on some of the games rivalries. I often found myself with my size 11's trying to keep some decorum. Frankly in any setting...male one-up-man-ship or female, pains me. As does putting down. We know none of us are none too heroic....it's shorthand for ganging up. As old as I am I still have a school boy ethic...sympathy for the underdog. I am not a prig...between 2 consenting equal adults sparring partners...marquis of queensbury rules...fair enough. Some games just belong in the playground or best left there. I have to say again I do like sluts and am a slut....I also like Falstaff, my favourite Shakespeare character. I also thank god I married wifey, she is the most unjudgemental person I have ever met. It's uncanny. Might be an 'Asian' thing, don't think so, it's just her. One positive note as you mentioned it, I have not heard the 'N' word in well over 50 years. Which I count as a blessing. Can't say I haven't seen racism though, which is a curse. Heavens girls, get a grip....there are far worse people on the planet than sluts.

[9]

seriously, if there's anyone shittier than a male misogynist it's a female misogynist. Women who laugh along with sexist jokes, accept gender stereotypes put against them, or otherwise make excuses for sexism

well, are you talking about feminists specifically or women in general? because in the case of the latter, I think most people internalize the dominant attitudes in their society to some extent. Im not sure what else you would expect.

[Susurrus]

An "Aunt Alexandra" perhaps? Reference to One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

[Manic Impressive]

from my mate's girlfriend yesterday on fb

Steve has been playing Skyrim on EASY! and I have been playing on normal... and he has been taking the piss cos I couldn't do a couple of quests! Now he has changed it to normal; I hope he gets raped!

[Lobotomy]

well, are you talking about feminists specifically or women in general? because in the case of the latter, I think most people internalize the dominant attitudes in their society to some extent. Im not sure what else you would expect.

a little bit of both, like some of the women that others have mentioned in this thread (eg Sarah Palin) have called themselves feminists at some point while holding no real feminist values. but I also feel at least somewhat the same way toward women in general who promote opinions that are sexist. You're right that we sort of have to expect it but that doesn't mean it won't get on my nerves.

also, I don't mean to hold myself up as some champion of challenging all forms of sexism in my day-to-day life or anything. I enjoy plenty of stereotypical "woman" things like cooking, makeup etc, and I know it may be partly due to my being conditioned (as is everyone else) but that doesn't mean I'm going to pretend I don't like doing my nails :blushing:. But there is a big difference between doing your nails vs. victim-blaming, slut shaming etc

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

FUCKIN' A! This is exactly how I feel. Just broke up with a woman who had these traits, also have a friend who's marrying some rich chauvanist for his money and dropping out of uni/giving up on making her own path.

This fucking pisses me off so much, its the equivalent of working-class Sun readers who vote conservative and blame it all on the immigrants. Fuck it all, I wanna leave this planet.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I mean on the whole, "be in the kitchen", or wanting to be a "house wife", or find a sugar daddy thing, in the context of the society we live in, I can't totally blame people for maybe seeing that as a lesser-evil. Take care of a kid and be my own boss at home or hire a sitter and work for some asshole who doesn't care if my kid is sick or if I don't get paid enough to buy them things for school... hmm.

So on a certain level I don't want to make moral judgements on people who buy into some of these ideas because it doesn't necessarily mean they are against women's rights or the working class if they are just regular workers themselves. I can see, hey it beats working, especially in this economy.

But what is absolutely horrible and reactionary is that the capitalist "liberal" media and politicians sell these ideas as liberatory or empowering somehow when really they just was to re-enforce gender roles that keep working class people down. The New York Times and other liberal papers and magazines often have stories about professional women giving it all up for a much more fulfilling life as a house-wife and mother. Maybe they have the luxury of a choice but these gender ideas are poison for working class women now that most have to work and then are moralized about not being a real woman if they are not also somehow a 24hr mom and house-maker.

[black magick hustla]

from my mate's girlfriend yesterday on fb

u should clean her mouth with detergent how dare she use the r word

[Os Cangaceiros]

You know, I don't really like Naomi Wolf, but her article about the left's mistaken belief that they own "feminism" was more-or-less accurate, or at least that particular element of it was. "Feminism" is amorphous enough that it can mean whatever the fuck you want it to mean...you're a woman who self-actualized your goals, whatever those goals may be? Congratulations, you've just entered the pantheon of modern feminism.

God, sometimes the communist left reminds me of a bunch of nerds at a high school dance, and the working class/women/minorities/whatever is the hot girl who's hanging out with the jocks, while we stew in the corner and wonder what we're doing wrong.

[Chambered Word]

You know, I don't really like Naomi Wolf, but her article about the left's mistaken belief that they own "feminism" was more-or-less accurate, or at least that particular element of it was. "Feminism" is amorphous enough that it can mean whatever the fuck you want it to mean...you're a woman who self-actualized your goals, whatever those goals may be? Congratulations, you've just entered the pantheon of modern feminism.

I think you could at least loosely define it as a political current that seeks to further women's rights and empower women. With that said, there should be a very clear line between what Sarah Palin for example advocates and what feminism advocates.


God, sometimes the communist left reminds me of a bunch of nerds at a high school dance, and the working class/women/minorities/whatever is the hot girl who's hanging out with the jocks, while we stew in the corner and wonder what we're doing wrong.

I totally sympathize, but can't see how it relates to what has been said here.

EDIT: Can't see like half of the first page, so maybe I missed some pretty whiny posts.

[Os Cangaceiros]

The problem is that the word is used in a lot of different ways, and whenever someone says "feminism is wrong because of this this and this", or "feminism is what we should all be advocating because of this this and this", someone will invariably come into the conversation and proclaim "that's not feminism! this definition I'm contributing to the conversation is the REAL feminism!"

A lot of women were empowered through the cause of Prohibition in the USA, indeed it started out as a mass movement primarily consisting of women. And that cause reeked of self-righteous religious and "progressive" posturing and was an epic failure. Feminism as the left defines it isn't merely about empowering women, it's about empowering women through the narrow lense of it's own political project. Where the line is drawn between what real feminism is and what fake uncle tom feminism is...I don't think it's clearly defined enough.

As for the nerd comment, I just get irritated sometimes when I hear leftists throwing their hands up in exasperation because everyone doesn't think like they do, and how could this possibly be. It's not to say that the beliefs of the left are wrong, hell I agree with them, but people come up with their views through a myriad of ways, and it's not just from being brutalized by their false consciousness or racism or rape culture or other unpleasant things. To simply shirk aside differing beliefs as a result of societal trauma is condescending IMO (not that it's being down in this thread necessarily, but I've definitely seen it done before by leftists.) For a lot of people, their identity as such-and-such minority group may be an important part of their life, but it doesn't totally define who they are.

[kahimikarie]

I've been having this exact same thought in this exact same wording recently. creepy.

But, I guess the more rational? side of me instead of wanting to tar them with a name like that just makes me feel sorry/sympathetic towards them for all of the misogyny and self-hated they're internalized.

BTW I don't think "feminism" is an abstract concept you can define for yourself. There have definitely been attempts even by liberal third wave feminists to say this, but feminism is an ideology with a definite history and theory behind it, the same as Marxism or any other ideology (though obviously yes, less defined, but still.)