14 Defining Characteristrics of Fascism.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Pretty comparable to the present day United States.

http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm

[Zealot]

There is literally not one criteria that the US doesn't meet, lol.

[ВАЛТЕР]

There is literally not one criteria that the US doesn't meet, lol.

It is terrifying.

I shared this to one of my left leaning friends from the US, who I am trying to convert. She simply replied with "wow".

[The Douche]

Dumbest fucking article ever.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Dumbest fucking article ever.

How so?

The man went and took traits that a large group Fascist states have in common, and listed them.

[Nox]

The US government meets every single one of those. Especially 14.

[The Douche]

How so?

The man went and took traits that a large group Fascist states have in common, and listed them.

Its just not an accurate analysis of fascism. The US isn't fascist.

I bet you I can make a "14 points of communism" and make it apply to the US.

[bcbm]

if the us were a fascist state we would be underground or in death camps. the us is scary, the us is not fascist

[The Stalinator]

Suppose I should pack my bags and move to Iceland now before it's too late.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Its just not an accurate analysis of fascism. The US isn't fascist.

I bet you I can make a "14 points of communism" and make it apply to the US.

The goal of the study wasn't to compare the US to a fascist state. The point was to get some common ground between Fascist states. Since Hitler's Germany, wasn't the same as Franco's Spain.

I am not even saying that the US is fascist, I am saying it meets these 14 points. Which is terrifying. The 14 points do not equal certain fascism. They are just points common to all Fascist states.

[Apoi_Viitor]

5 Defining Characteristics of Communism

1. Public Education
2. A Central Banking Institution
3. Progressive Taxation
4. Inheritance Tax
5. State provided communication

Yep, the US is pretty much communist.

[ВАЛТЕР]

5 Defining Characteristics of Communism

1. Public Education
2. A Central Banking Institution
3. Progressive Taxation
4. Inheritance Tax
5. State provided communication

Yep, the US is pretty much communist.

2. nope- communism gets rid of capital
3. nope - "
4. nope - "


I am saying to compare these points to the US. NOT the original person who did the research. I am also not saying that the US is a Fascist state. I am simply telling people to do a comparison.

[The Douche]

2. nope- communism gets rid of capital
3. nope - "
4. nope - "


I am saying to compare these points to the US. NOT the original person who did the research. I am also not saying that the US is a Fascist state. I am simply telling people to do a comparison.

The problem is that the conditions listed are so vague that they can be applied to virtually every country ever.

This dumbass article used to be all the rage to hand out when the anti-war movement was big.

[Marxaveli]

Its just not an accurate analysis of fascism. The US isn't fascist.

I bet you I can make a "14 points of communism" and make it apply to the US.

If the US isnt Fascist, it certainly comes close. There isnt a single aspect of Communism that you could apply to the US, because Communism by definition, is a classless and stateless society above all else. Every single one of those 14 points applies to the US, some stronger than others but all to a degree. There is NOTHING Communist about the US, NOTHING. We are definitely borderline Fascist though. All we need now is the concentration camps and we are basically there.

[The Douche]

If the US isnt Fascist, it certainly comes close. There isnt a single aspect of Communism that you could apply to the US, because Communism by definition, is a classless and stateless society above all else. Every single one of those 14 points applies to the US, some stronger than others but all to a degree. There is NOTHING Communist about the US, NOTHING. We are definitely borderline Fascist though. All we need now is the concentration camps and we are basically there.

When is the last time a strike was attacked by a paramilitary force? When is the last time a socialist party office was bombed? How many communist militants have been lynched in the past 10 years?

Jesus christ man, there is a massive protest movement going on all across the country.

The statement you just made is so amazingly inaccurate and pathetic that I can't believe it would be serious. The lack of understanding of what fascism is by young leftists is astounding to me.

[Marxaveli]

When is the last time a strike was attacked by a paramilitary force? When is the last time a socialist party office was bombed? How many communist militants have been lynched in the past 10 years?

Jesus christ man, there is a massive protest movement going on all across the country.

The statement you just made is so amazingly inaccurate and pathetic that I can't believe it would be serious. The lack of understanding of what fascism is by young leftists is astounding to me.

First off, switch up your tone with me. Second off, odds are, I'm older than you are. But age is not relevant here anyway.

Lastly....have look at these. Than tell me America aint close to being Fascist. If you do not think America is Fascist or close to it, it is YOU who is clueless. Period. It is much easier for me to make the case that America is Fascist than it is for you that it is Communist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmJmmnMkuEM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdVElgslei0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-_LlXnKhSw

could post a shitload more, but I think I made my point.

[The Douche]

First off, switch up your tone with me. Second off, odds are, I'm older than you are. But age is not relevant here anyway.

Lastly....have look at these. Than tell me America aint close to being Fascist. If you do not think America is Fascist or close to it, it is YOU who is clueless. Period.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmJmmnMkuEM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdVElgslei0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-_LlXnKhSw

could post a shitload more, but I think I made my point.

Not convinced, neither is the vast majority of this board, neither is the vast majority of the left, neither is the vast majority of the population, neither are the people who lived under fascist regimes.

Carry on though...

[Marxaveli]

Uh huh. And there was a time when the vast majority of this nation thought slavery was ok too. All your arguments are straw mans. Vast majority opinion means shit. Otherwise none of us would be Commies.

[The Douche]

Dog, you're freely posting as a communist on a communist website talking to communists from all over the country, where you can read reports of their involvement in a mass movement opposed to the government. Totally sounds like we're an inch away from fascism.:laugh:

[Pioneers_Violin]

There is NOTHING Communist about the US, NOTHING. We are definitely borderline Fascist though. All we need now is the concentration camps and we are basically there.

Great comparison. I knew all that already but now I'm even more scared!

I suspect the concentration camps are already here.
How? Where? With prisons full?
All they have to do is legalize any drug and..... Instant massive vacancy!
Or just release truly dangerous people that don't oppose the rulers.... Better, give them jobs "protecting" the rulers!

We've got the largest prison system in the world for a reason, and it isn't because we're all criminals, at least not in the traditional sense.
We're "thought criminals", especially the RevLefters that aren't cops.
This is probably not any kind of accident and is decades in the making. It's well planned and is going to be impossible for Americans to overcome on their own.

Aw crud.

I suspected something like this would develop within a month of 9-11. we were being played, played like a fiddle. Still are, actually.

[Pioneers_Violin]

Dog, you're freely posting as a communist on a communist website talking to communists from all over the country, where you can read reports of their involvement in a mass movement opposed to the government. Totally sounds like we're an inch away from fascism.:laugh:

cmoney, if only you were probably right here.
You're probably not, you know.

How else would you round up the Lefties and Commies?
You have to ID them first (that's us BTW), keep track of them,
Let them have a false sense of anonymity and security for as long as they don't cause too much fuss. As soon as they become a danger.... Boom! You get rid of them swiftly.
It's all been done before, though the names might be different.

That's what these kinds of guys do. They've spent years, probably decades setting this up and aren't going to overlook any possible source of significant trouble.
And when your system is very Fascist-like as ours is, the biggest source of trouble is those damn Commies! (all Lefties, really)
How better to control them than give them a nice sandbox to play in?

3 kinds of people on RevLeft
1-Cops, or whatever they're called.
2-The innocent passerby, the Curious, attention seekers, thrill seekers, "nice" people here for whatever reason that pose no threat to the Establishment....
3-Really, really crazy Lefties, Anarchists Commies, what have you, with Principles.

Group 3 is probably headed for a bag of hurt by being here, or just generally for being Group 3.

Which group are you?
Don't bother answering, no one would believe us anyway and the Cops already know who's who.

Added: I'm not accusing RevLeft of being run by the Facists. They don't have to run it to trace darn near anything that happens anywhere else on the Internet,so why is this place different? All kinds of ways to getcha if they want to.... and people that would MACE sitting, unarmed protesters most certainly want to.

[Pirate Utopian]

lol. Cmoney is the only person making sense in this thread.

[Jimmie Higgins]

The US is not fascist and the problem with trying to define fascism in this way is that it reduces it to a series of policies and ignores the class politics behind fascism.

In simplest terms, the US is not fascist because it doesn't need to be. The US can invade where it wants, force it's dominance and standing, attack it's own population and workers in particular, without the use of extra-legal means. It can satisfy the needs of capital fine through the institutions of liberal bourgeois democracy. It can use police to repress people and keep them scared and in line "legally" without resorting to mobilizing loyal street-thugs. Fascism arises when liberal democracy is unable to contain the class struggle any more and sections of the ruling class begin to support fascism as the best way to prevent workers from taking over.

That's why fascism has looked different in different places and times and incorporated different issues and policies. European neo-fascists might have protectionist and anti-interventionist rhetoric in some places or expansionist rhetoric in others; there may be neo-nazis who oppose Israel out of their anti-semitism but other fascists who scapegoat Arabs and defend Israel as civilization against barbarism.

What would US fascism look like: well it would probably look like the US deputizing fascist groups - think an armed tea-party or militia groups in each city with semi-official backing. Not only would unions be attacked through laws and made illegal (which unions used to be and it still wasn't fascism), but thugs would make sure that the laws are enforced by lynching people who attempted to organize or carry-out wildcat strikes.

It's like vigilante capitalism whereas what we have now is "legal" capitalism.

Personally I think a lot of the arguments about the "fascist threat" to the US have come from liberals who hold onto the idea that capitalist democracy isn't inherently unjust and repressive and in the service of the rich and that our system is that way because of some kind of alien force perverting what would otherwise be a workable system. Also a lot of the fascist hysteria over the last decade came from Democrats who wanted to make the Republican threat seem so severe that it would be worth supporting a shitty pro-war and pro-business Democratic politician just to prevent fascist take-over.

Lastly I think this kind of "police-state" and "fascism" talk doesn't fit this era. Like others have said, there are demonstrations and protests in the US (something that wouldn't happen in fascism - at least not for very long) but people are actually fighting back and winning (or at least preventing the repression from winning). The idea that the police are all powerful and able to stop any social movement only adds to the pessimistic ideas people have in regards to our ability as workers to make change or challenge the status-quo. In part this is one of the state's strongest weapons: the idea that they are permanent and all-powerful. This is why cops dress like Batman designed the uniforms for the Galactic Empire's storm-troopers. While we need to fight against attempts to add to the US's repressive abilities, we also have to be level-headed and realize the weak points where we can actually fight-back and encourage it.

[Nox]

Its just not an accurate analysis of fascism. The US isn't fascist.

I bet you I can make a "14 points of communism" and make it apply to the US.

Inb4 10 planks of communism

[RedRevolution1938]

The U.S. is indeed becoming more and more fascist. The only difference is the majority of finance capital is not dominated by the state and the bourgeoisie are still allowed to dominate capital overseas.

The growing fascism in this nation could be a good thing though... it means things are getting worse, and when things get worse, revolutions are ripe.

"Fascism is capitalism in decay" - V.I. Lenin

[The Douche]

The US is not fascist and the problem with trying to define fascism in this way is that it reduces it to a series of policies and ignores the class politics behind fascism.

In simplest terms, the US is not fascist because it doesn't need to be. The US can invade where it wants, force it's dominance and standing, attack it's own population and workers in particular, without the use of extra-legal means. It can satisfy the needs of capital fine through the institutions of liberal bourgeois democracy. It can use police to repress people and keep them scared and in line "legally" without resorting to mobilizing loyal street-thugs. Fascism arises when liberal democracy is unable to contain the class struggle any more and sections of the ruling class begin to support fascism as the best way to prevent workers from taking over.

That's why fascism has looked different in different places and times and incorporated different issues and policies. European neo-fascists might have protectionist and anti-interventionist rhetoric in some places or expansionist rhetoric in others; there may be neo-nazis who oppose Israel out of their anti-semitism but other fascists who scapegoat Arabs and defend Israel as civilization against barbarism.

What would US fascism look like: well it would probably look like the US deputizing fascist groups - think an armed tea-party or militia groups in each city with semi-official backing. Not only would unions be attacked through laws and made illegal (which unions used to be and it still wasn't fascism), but thugs would make sure that the laws are enforced by lynching people who attempted to organize or carry-out wildcat strikes.

It's like vigilante capitalism whereas what we have now is "legal" capitalism.

Personally I think a lot of the arguments about the "fascist threat" to the US have come from liberals who hold onto the idea that capitalist democracy isn't inherently unjust and repressive and in the service of the rich and that our system is that way because of some kind of alien force perverting what would otherwise be a workable system. Also a lot of the fascist hysteria over the last decade came from Democrats who wanted to make the Republican threat seem so severe that it would be worth supporting a shitty pro-war and pro-business Democratic politician just to prevent fascist take-over.

Lastly I think this kind of "police-state" and "fascism" talk doesn't fit this era. Like others have said, there are demonstrations and protests in the US (something that wouldn't happen in fascism - at least not for very long) but people are actually fighting back and winning (or at least preventing the repression from winning). The idea that the police are all powerful and able to stop any social movement only adds to the pessimistic ideas people have in regards to our ability as workers to make change or challenge the status-quo. In part this is one of the state's strongest weapons: the idea that they are permanent and all-powerful. This is why cops dress like Batman designed the uniforms for the Galactic Empire's storm-troopers. While we need to fight against attempts to add to the US's repressive abilities, we also have to be level-headed and realize the weak points where we can actually fight-back and encourage it.

In the words of so many other posters.

NUH UH!!!

[Apoi_Viitor]

Inb4 10 planks of communism

Too late, I already quoted half of them in my previous post

[Chambered Word]

Lastly I think this kind of "police-state" and "fascism" talk doesn't fit this era. Like others have said, there are demonstrations and protests in the US (something that wouldn't happen in fascism - at least not for very long) but people are actually fighting back and winning (or at least preventing the repression from winning). The idea that the police are all powerful and able to stop any social movement only adds to the pessimistic ideas people have in regards to our ability as workers to make change or challenge the status-quo. In part this is one of the state's strongest weapons: the idea that they are permanent and all-powerful. This is why cops dress like Batman designed the uniforms for the Galactic Empire's storm-troopers. While we need to fight against attempts to add to the US's repressive abilities, we also have to be level-headed and realize the weak points where we can actually fight-back and encourage it.

A police state is pretty much any capitalist state. Anyway, 5 star post dude.


The U.S. is indeed becoming more and more fascist. The only difference is the majority of finance capital is not dominated by the state and the bourgeoisie are still allowed to dominate capital overseas.

The growing fascism in this nation could be a good thing though... it means things are getting worse, and when things get worse, revolutions are ripe.

"Fascism is capitalism in decay" - V.I. Lenin

I wouldn't say that capitalist reaction is always a good thing.

Anyway, fascism is more than just an arbitrary checklist of attributes ascribed to a certain nation, it's an actual system of running capitalism. All of those 14 points could apply to Australia to some degree, even the last if you consider that we ousted a prime minister and installed a new one without any election not long ago.

[Tim Cornelis]

Fascism is a political doctrine that emphasises national unity and national identity which is to be preserved by the state. Fascism is thus:

1. Ultra-nationalist identity
2. Totalitarian state policy
3. Social conservative values
4. Corporatist socio-economic model

All in the name of the nation, national identity, and state. (e.g. abortion would be illegal not because of "ethical" reasons but because a strong nation needs a big population).

The United States is patriotic, but certainly not ultra-nationalist. And ultra-nationalism or chauvinism is not used by the state.

There is by no means a totalitarian state policy. Multiple parties exist, and there is a high degree of free speech, and as stated already there is a massive anti-government movement.

Social conservative values are pursuit by a minority, but is not state policy. Abortion is allowed, and if Republican's had their way it would be illegal for "ethical" reasons, rather than making the country more populous and hence strong.

There is no corporatist socio-economic model. Corporatism means the private business sector is subordinated to the state, whereas in the US it is the other way around: the state is subordinated to Big Business. Furthermore, there is no 'alliance' of trade unions and employer's organisations as for example in the Netherlands (which does have a corporatist socio-economic model called the Polder model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder_Model))

Conclusion: US has none of the defining aspects of fascism.

[bcbm]

Basically, fascism was associated with the economic and political unification of Capital, a tendency which has become general since 1914. Fascism was a particular way of realising this goal in certain countries - Italy and Germany - where the State proved itself incapable of establishing order (as it is understood by the bourgeoisie), even though the revolution had been crushed. Fascism has the following characteristics:

1) it is born in the street; 2) it stirs up disorder while preaching order; 3) it is a movement of obsolete middle classes ending in their more or less violent destruction; and 4) it regenerates, from outside, the traditional State which is incapable of resolving the capitalist crisis.
http://libcom.org/library/fascism-anti-fascism-gilles-dauve-jean-barrot

[Red Rabbit]

Not convinced, neither is the vast majority of this board, neither is the vast majority of the left, neither is the vast majority of the population, neither are the people who lived under fascist regimes.

Carry on though...

Although I agree with your point, acting like you speak for the majority isn't very intelligent.

[BOZG]

I will make the same point that I make everytime I see the 14 characteristics.

All of these points basically apply to every single capitalist state, in a greater or lesser form, and with some exceptions here and there.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

The statement you just made is so amazingly inaccurate and pathetic that I can't believe it would be serious. The lack of understanding of what fascism is by young leftists is astounding to me.

I hear you loud and clear.

One of my pet peeves is when someone uses the term fascist to describe something which clearly isn't.Lately with some of my undereducated "leftist" friends they have been spewing shit about how Stalin and Stalinists are fascists (:laugh:).Uhhh...yeah, I am sure that Stalin meets all those criteria.My point is that people,especially those who claim to adhere to a leftist tendancy,need to actually learn what the hell fascism is and work to educate the masses on its real meaning, not the hyperbole one.


Fascism is capitalism in decay

Yeah, Lenin said it so it must be true :rolleyes: ...I am a Leninist, but I don't take every quote as if it is absolute truth while ignoring the historical facts.

[Black_Rose]

What is fascism again? Is fascism a mentality or a political methodology? If the former, then the United States is fascist; if the latter, Higgen's is correct, the US doesn't need to be fascist.

Higgen's is correct. There is no need for overt oppression: free speech serves to dilute the voices the discontented with revolutionary tendencies, and individualistic and materialistic values precludes any coordinated effort among the restive masses.