NYC media comes out hard against Occupy - Here's a round up

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Nothing that should surprise us, but gives you an idea of what kind of horse shit they're shoveling.: http://www.thealbanyproject.com/diary/9710/n17-reax-roundup-a-truly-awful-haul-from-the-nyc-media

Some "highlights":

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9774/nydn.jpg

"Rally is really a tantrum by decry babies"

"Ready riot cops whack back at OWS hooligans"

[The Douche]

This is what happens. The police embed local news with them and keep national press far away to control public opinion, resulting in a national near-black out, and a local press condemnation of the protesters.

Fucking scum.

[xub3rn00dlex]

It is our job to spread the actual news instead of this propagandist shit. I am being pretty successful of doing so as my coworkers are against the police repression that is occuring. Solidarity in work places can translate into support for a general strike, which my coworkers seem iterested in.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Some of this shit is just obscene. Imagine what kind of material they'll come up with if a real revolution approaches? Easy to see how a mob of brownshirts can be scared up with this kind of garbage.

Luckily, a huge number of young people abandoned the dead tree media along time ago and gets their info from other individuals via social media and cell phones.

[xub3rn00dlex]

Some of this shit is just obscene. Imagine what kind of material they'll come up with if a real revolution approaches? Easy to see how a mob of brownshirts can be scared up with this kind of garbage.

Luckily, a huge number of young people abandoned the dead tree media along time ago and gets their info from other individuals via social media and cell phones.

I think the youth and student movement here in the states will be an enormous factor in te facillitation of the actual information of what really occured rather than the shit spewing from the media. The problem with this is of course thr usual "stupid lazy kids get a fuckin job" retort that will be preached by the elites.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

"Clashes with cops, creates bloody nuisance" ... this brings back memories of the time I got thrown into a police car by a bunch of cops, who then in court said I threw myself into the car in order to damage it -- and demanded I pay to fix the dents left by my body.

The headline might as well read "Masses of protestors throw themselves into police batons in order to destroy their own faces." :rolleyes:

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

"stupid lazy kids get a fuckin job"

That loses some of its shine when faced with the reality that people are spending 12 and 14 days participating in this shit without receiving a single fucking penny.

[NewLeft]

75% of OWS is employed.
50% of tea party is employed.

Depressing numbers...

[Os Cangaceiros]

Oh man, Demi and Ashton split? Fuuuuuuuuuuuu........

The NY Post is just so gloriously, unapologetically trashy, it's hard to be mad at them. I love how they make tasteless puns on their covers about lighthearted topics like murder.

[RadioRaheem84]

The Tea Party was given a glowing light presentation by the media because they were do clean cut and law abiding.

Status quo propaganda lovers.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

The Tea Party was given a glowing light presentation by the media because they were do clean cut and law abiding.

You mean like showing up at government buildings with loaded weapons, spitting on congress people, calling for assassinations of the president, etc?

You show a touching faith in bourgeois law. They wrote it. They'll interpret how they want, and change or suspend it if and when they feel they need to.

The difference in treatment between OWS and the Tea Party is a lot more about class, stated intentions and politics than "legality."

It's not illegal to be in Zuccotti Park, which by law is open 24 hours a day. Also not illegal to march on the sidewalk. The only ones who broke the law on Tuesday were the cops, who ignored a supreme court injunction that said they couldn't evict the occupation or keep us out of the park.

[The Douche]

75% of OWS is employed.
50% of tea party is employed.

Depressing numbers...

What's the percentage of tea partiers who are retired, though? 40%?

[Zealot]

Wow! Comrades need to go seize the press because that is some insane BS right there! This is the highest scumbaggery I have seen in a while!

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

75% of OWS is employed.
50% of tea party is employed.

Depressing numbers...

If these stats are genuine, it probably has more to do with the abundance of retired military and cops, petty-bourgeois and reactionary "family first" housewives in the Tea Party than anything else.

[xub3rn00dlex]

That loses some of its shine when faced with the reality that people are spending 12 and 14 days participating in this shit without receiving a single fucking penny.

I understand, but people do choose to ignore that reality. Even after yesterday you still hear the same fucking shit about how they're just a bunch of kids looking for problems because they're liberal arts losers/ hippies etc. it's becoming increasigly frustrating trying to reason with these people, because empirical data does nothing to sway them.

[Ele'ill]

Is the problem here that there hasn't been a clear/bold enough of a class line drawn by this movement? Because if there was more union and student support these headlines would beg the return question of 'who exactly the fuck are you addressing?'. Even if there had been more dialogue between the 'OWS movement' and 'the unions' in the form of councils- a common meeting and discussion platform for them and for inter-union discussion I think that at the very least we'd see a clear battle line and not this fuzzy looking news headlines thing that leaves many people looking nervously around cause we're really not sure.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I think the movement needs to merge with rank and file workers.

Fuck the union misleaders that only know how to bury militancy in toothless cross-class coalitions with the bourgeoisie.

For all the "occupy" and "unofficial" rhetoric, there sure is a lot of obedience to "official avenues," talking to "official representatives," etc. Fuck that.

Go to your local occupy, round up a group of people who know what's what, and start going out to work places at shift change, to unemployment centers, to union halls before meetings, etc., and figure out what you can make happen together.

[KurtFF8]

Wow! Comrades need to go seize the press because that is some insane BS right there! This is the highest scumbaggery I have seen in a while!

Of expropriation of mega corporate media should be an eventual goal. But the idea that we can just march in there tomorrow and take over is quite idealistic and adventurist.

[xub3rn00dlex]

Of expropriation of mega corporate media should be an eventual goal. But the idea that we can just march in there tomorrow and take over is quite idealistic and adventurist.

But why is that? How much of a presence would we require to actually storm a newstation like fox? Of course the action would be illegal and we'd be arrested, but I doubt news station are armed to the brink with security guards...

[KurtFF8]

What would happen would be an instant police response. There just literally wouldn't be enough time to actually start using their means of news production in an alternate way by the time the police came and arrested everyone. Then there would likely be felony charges/more things the NLG would have to deal with, etc. etc.

[xub3rn00dlex]

What would happen would be an instant police response. There just literally wouldn't be enough time to actually start using their means of news production in an alternate way by the time the police came and arrested everyone. Then there would likely be felony charges/more things the NLG would have to deal with, etc. etc.

No doubt this is in part due to the OWS movement not exactly being popular on a massive scale. However, would you view this as a possible action by the movement if it a) grows in the future b) gains major support and c) becomes more militant?

[KurtFF8]

No doubt this is in part due to the OWS movement not exactly being popular on a massive scale. However, would you view this as a possible action by the movement if it a) grows in the future b) gains major support and c) becomes more militant?

It has a bit of popular support I would say that (source: over 32,000 people marching in solidarity with OWS last night).

And if you look throughout the day, the militancy of the movement is certainly increasing. Over 250 were arrested by the night time after an attempt by the movement to shut down the NYSE.

[RED DAVE]

An interesting exception is three shows on MSNBC: Hardball, with Chris ; Ed's Show with Ed Shultz and Rachel Maddow's show.

Each of these shows, last night, have been supportive of OWS and of last night's march.

RED DAVE

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I doubt news station are armed to the brink with security guards...

In NYC?? To paraphrase Jadakiss: "They've got the whole National Guard downstairs."

The local FOX station in NYC looks like a fortress: cameras everywhere, private security, double locking doors, bullet proof glass, etc.

Others are similar.


Each of these shows, last night, have been supportive of OWS and of last night's march.

I'm sure. The reformist functionaries that swooped in and took over last night were their kind of people: liberal activists, union bureaucrats, NGOs, etc.

[NewLeft]

I'm sure. The reformist functionaries that swooped in and took over last night were their kind of people: liberal activists, union bureaucrats, NGOs, etc.

The capital-intensive industry has no problem with them either.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

they're liberal arts losers/ hippies etc.Some of them are; especially among the full timers that camped out.

Some sociology grads students too.

Don't get bogged down in that kind of shit though, because it doesn't matter.

The main advance that has come out of this is that thousands of people across NYC, the US, even many parts of the world, are coming together on a regular basis to discuss the problems they face and how to deal with them. Total strangers from different neighborhoods, workplaces, etc., are discussing these things together and trying to work out real solutions. And that is major.

[The Douche]

Some of them are; especially among the full timers that camped out.

Some sociology grads students too.

Don't get bogged down in that kind of shit though, because it doesn't matter.

The main advance that has come out of this is that thousands of people across NYC, the US, even many parts of the world, are coming together on a regular basis to discuss the problems they face and how to deal with them. Total strangers from different neighborhoods, workplaces, etc., are discussing these things together and trying to work out real solutions. And that is major.

No shit. I love hearing people complain that its liberal arts graduates at the camps.

Yeah, you're goddamned right it is. Because for the past 10+ years in the public school system students have been told by everybody, teachers, parents, counselors, peers, that in order to make good money you need to go to college (in large part because all our industry has been outsourced, you can't leave high school and get a job at the factory starting at $18 an hour anymore). And then those same people are telling them, not to get degrees in engineering or accounting or stable areas, but to go to college for what they're good at, which is often things like english, history, or art.

So what do you expect? And I think that is a major disconnect with the baby-boomers. They weren't treated that way, they didn't have college shoved down their throats, there were other good jobs available for a lot of them, and trades were more common and easier to get into.


And now the students and working class are coming together. Yes, people have to go to work, and yes, some young people are mad they don't have worthwhile jobs to go to, so yea, they're camping out in a park... and providing the space for discussions to happen/connections to be made with the working class. Are there lots of students in the parks? Yes, does that mean the working class isn't involved? Fuck no. It means the working class and students are coming together, sharing strengths and learning from each other.

[RadioRaheem84]

you can't leave high school and get a job at the factory starting at $18 an hour


18 bucks an hour? Adjusted for inflation that's like 40 bucks an hour in 1975!

Did people really make that much working construction, factory, etc?

My gf's dad said his first job out of high school was a construction job starting at 13 bucks an hour in 1977.

A friend of mine's dad started in a union grocery store at 8 bucks an hour back then!

I find it quite hard to believe.

[The Douche]

18 bucks an hour? Adjusted for inflation that's like 40 bucks an hour in 1975!

Did people really make that much working construction, factory, etc?

My gf's dad said his first job out of high school was a construction job starting at 13 bucks an hour in 1977.

A friend of mine's dad started in a union grocery store at 8 bucks an hour back then!

I find it quite hard to believe.

It was a rough estimation of what an equivalent starting salary today would be. Sorry.

[RadioRaheem84]

Good god, I can't imagine a ten cent raise at my job, I can only imagine what the union movement in this country did to propel the working class from working in sweatshops to making 40 dollars an hour in a single generation!

I am not mistaking this though? They were making what would be equivalent to making 40 bucks an hour today right?

What would a service job pay back then?

[The Douche]

Good god, I can't imagine a ten cent raise at my job, I can only imagine what the union movement in this country did to propel the working class from working in sweatshops to making 40 dollars an hour in a single generation!

I am not mistaking this though? They were making what would be equivalent to making 40 bucks an hour today right?

What would a service job pay back then?

I mean, whats top salary at the auto plants today? Its around $35-$40 isn't it?


Not sure about service jobs, pretty sure my dad was making somewhere around $1.15 an hour plus tips while waiting tables in college. Which is nuts, cause my girlfriend recently quit her job at olive garden where her hourly was only like $2.30.

[RadioRaheem84]

mean, whats top salary at the auto plants today? Its around $35-$40 isn't it?




I don't know. I didn't know it was that much. I guess the auto industry remained the same.

But I was referring to construction, truckers, railroad, etc.

Construction pay was 13-15 to start off, union, back in 1975. Today, my gf's dad owns his own construction company, a small one, and he pays his workers 8-12

[The Douche]

I don't know. I didn't know it was that much. I guess the auto industry remained the same.

But I was referring to construction, truckers, railroad, etc.

Construction pay was 13-15 to start off, union, back in 1975. Today, my gf's dad owns his own construction company, a small one, and he pays his workers 8-12

Before I dropped out of high school I was in the masonry program in vo-tech, our teacher said starting salary on union jobs for us (we came in at the second level, I can't remember what that is, journeyman or apprentice or whatever) was around 13-15, once we made it to mason it would be like 20, and once we were masters or whatever it would be around 30, he said there were jobs sometimes that paid upwards of 40-45 somewhat regularly.

But my friend's dad was a mason (non-union, independent contractor) and he usually made around 16 an hour. (this was around 2005)

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

18 bucks an hour? Adjusted for inflation that's like 40 bucks an hour in 1975!

Did people really make that much working construction, factory, etc?

My gf's dad said his first job out of high school was a construction job starting at 13 bucks an hour in 1977.

A friend of mine's dad started in a union grocery store at 8 bucks an hour back then!

I find it quite hard to believe.You're from Texas though (which you just got done gushing over as a great place for workers, better than the "Democratic states" of the north, remember?).

Yeah in the north, mid-Atlantic region, or parts of the midwest, you could make that, or more. A hell of a lot more.

If you run a miner in a long-wall mine in PA or West Virginia right now, you'll make around 100,000 a year with overtime. No degree needed.

If you do industrial insulation you'll make $20, $30, even more an hour. I made $1500 in 3 days once, as a journeyman insulator working in a godforsaken power plant out in the middle of the woods on the graveyard shift.

In many of the craft unions you'll make 50,000 - 60,000 a year.

And it's all still shit.

That miner is a part of a group of workers that brings millions upon millions of dollars worth of coal out of the ground each year. That insulator keeps mills and power plants running that make millions upon millions each year, and saves them tons of money in energy that would otherwise be lost.

Laborers get 18 an hour to do intense heavy-lifting work in tunnel projects that are worth millions or even billions of dollars.

Plus housing, food, etc., all cost more in the north than the south. Apartments and houses cost more in cities than rural areas. A lot more.

Plus there's the health shit -- the human cost. My grandfather worked his life away in steel mills only to get lung cancer and die a long painful death. My great grandfather died in a mine collapse. I have uncles, cousins, that have cancer, broken bones, hunchbacks, black lung, etc.

And of course there is a transfer that started a few decades ago that is still going on now. Workers fought for wage increases and benefits that are being rolled back and eliminated outright. New hires in union auto plants make $14 an hour instead of the $30+ an hour that older workers make (partly in a race-to-the-bottom parity with the non-union auto plants in the south).

Jobs continue to be eliminated by increases in productivity, transfers in the means of production (including to the open-shop low-wage south you praise as a great new place for workers to move to), etc.

Our great grandfathers and their sons worked these jobs for next to nothing, and fought like hell to organize and get a wage they could actually live on. Our fathers and mothers either followed their footsteps or found something else to do so they wouldn't have to go through the same misery. The ones that followed them didn't want the same misery for their children.

So a lot of those $18 an hour workers saved up their money to send their children to college -- which they were told was a way out of the misery of factory or mine work -- only to see them return home, without employment or hope for the future.

Those of us who didn't go to college (and there's a lot of us outside of the left -- only 1/4 of the U.S. population has a college degree) are super fucked. Even the shitty factory and mine jobs are largely gone, and the other trash employment we'd usually take up at places like grocery stores are taken up by people with university diplomas.

All of this is the source of a lot of the social malaise, huge numbers of healthy people on disability benefits, people turning to crime, drug abuse, etc.

People came out of the south, out of Appalachia, to take up mine jobs and factory jobs in the industrial heartland -- which is now "the rust belt." Now there are no jobs, and a lot of the social networks that would have existed in the past have been torn up. But the people that came, their kids, and their grand kids remain... with no place to go.

What you now see in front of you is the result of all of this.

[RadioRaheem84]

You're from Texas though (which you just got done gushing over as a great place for workers, better than the "Democratic states" of the north, remember?).



I wasn't gushing over Texas but that it's a shitty place to escape from a shittier place.

A lot of people from CA are moving here to escape the high unemployment and the high cost of living.

They say making 60k is not enough to live well in Los Angeles anymore.

60k still goes pretty far in Texas. That's all I was getting at.

You don't have to pay 1400 a month for a studio like you do in CA even though you're making a bit more in wages (non-union). It still doesn't even out.

That is why Texans are so reactionary. They think that if you "put up and shut up" then business will give you just enough to live and a little more, but instead Northern States and their unions "complained" and "forced" the businesses out leaving them with nothing but high unemployment and high cost of living.

[Os Cangaceiros]

My experience working in Texas wasn't very positive.

But I didn't really have any applicable skills, so that probably had something to do with it.

[RadioRaheem84]

My experience working in Texas wasn't very positive.

But I didn't really have any applicable skills, so that probably had something to do with it.

How can you work in the Northeast, especially in places like Boston and NYC and afford to live there?

I just cannot picture it. I figured it would be worse than Texas.

San Fran and LA seem even worse than the Northeast.

Texas is a put up or shut up state, but at least the rent isn't 1400 for a studio apartment.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I don't really know what real estate is like in other places. I was living pretty cheaply in Texas, but that's because I was splitting a room with another person, I payed about 100 dollars a month in rent, about 10 dollars a month for electric. That was good, because I didn't have much money.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

The rent is cheaper in Texas because less people want to live there. It's even cheaper to live in the middle of Mississippi. But there are no attractions, no fun, no culture, nothing to do.

I personally wouldn't want to live in Texas even if they were giving away houses for free.

I was in Arkansas for about a month paying only a few hundred a month and I couldn't wait to get the fuck out of there.

The rent is high in New York because millions of people want to live here. That's why there are adults here making $50,000 a year splitting 2 bed room apartments with 3 or 4 other people.

Yeah it sucks (the average rent here is more like $3200 - not $1400). It sucks horribly. Believe me.

But that's an argument against capitalism, the market, private ownership of housing, landlords, real estate speculation, etc., not the merits of other areas.

If you like the south that's great. But that's the deal with rent.

[Os Cangaceiros]

It depends on what part of Texas you live in.

I was living in Austin, which actually had a lot of culture: huge music scene, big film scene (SXSW and Fantastic Fest both take place in Austin), a number of good bars, etc.

[RadioRaheem84]

Nothing human there's no need to be that critical of TX. Austin is a great town and Houston is just as metropolitan as any other big city. The rent is cheaper here in the fourth largest city and people are pouring in by the truckloads and I don't see rent taking a Superman leap. Saying no one wants to be in TX is spurious. The major cities are filling up every day with people from PA, CA, MI, and FL. I see their license plates filling the streets every day.

They're coming cus they get big city living for cheap, not because more people want to be in NYC. Boston and Baltimore have rents just as high as NYC, I don't see people lining up to go there as much.

Sorry, but the situation is a bit better for workers in TX. This doesn't mean it's better overall, it's just in our major cities they get to have a life instead of feeling like they're total peons like on NYC or LA where it's night and day difference the gap in wealth.

[Kadir Ateş]

Raheem, what kind of reactionary bullshit are you trying to peddle?

[RadioRaheem84]

How is it reactionary? I was a bit taken back by the utter disdain of the idea that workers have it a bit better in TX considering the major cities are affordable, and I was explaining that this is why most people in TX are reactionary. They look at Northern states where unions were big and see their crippling unemployment and high cost of living and think they should've "put up or shut up". That's the misconception people have of the North and the West coast.

Did you read the whole thread or just came in at the last minute to post your snide remark?

[Weezer]

75% of OWS is employed.
50% of tea party is employed.

Depressing numbers...

http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy96/dattoaster/390134_2363974012916_1057325634_2663864_1845479494 _n.jpg

Yep.

[Kadir Ateş]

How is it reactionary? I was a bit taken back by the utter disdain of the idea that workers have it a bit better in TX considering the major cities are affordable, and I was explaining that this is why most people in TX are reactionary. They look at Northern states where unions were big and see their crippling unemployment and high cost of living and think they should've "put up or shut up". That's the misconception people have of the North and the West coast.

Did you read the whole thread or just came in at the last minute to post your snide remark?

There is, to my knowledge, no correlation between a city's affordability and of one's ideology. There are reactionary workers and progressive-minded ones in many cities, although they may not have the voting background to always prove it. My snide remark was only in reference to your preposterous claim.

[RadioRaheem84]

There is, to my knowledge, no correlation between a city's affordability and of one's ideology. There are reactionary workers and progressive-minded ones in many cities, although they may not have the voting background to always prove it. My snide remark was only in reference to your preposterous claim.

I never said that that was the case but that the misconception that unions scared away business in northern states plays a part in workers down here (who are politically active) being reactionary.

Clearly you misinterpreted what I said and instead decided to deliver a quip that made no sense.

Reactionary Texans talk about how unions killed business up north all the time and that our low tax less intervention right to work bullshit is the reason why we can storm recessions. That's their mantra. I never said it was mine nor that I believed that affordable cities make workers reactionary. Good god, learn to follow what people say before you brazenly react with such a snide comment.

[Kadir Ateş]

I never said that that was the case but that the misconception that unions scared away business in northern states plays a part in workers down here (who are politically active) being reactionary.

Clearly you misinterpreted what I said and instead decided to deliver a quip that made no sense.

Reactionary Texans talk about how unions killed business up north all the time and that our low tax less intervention right to work bullshit is the reason why we can storm recessions. That's their mantra. I never said it was mine nor that I believed that affordable cities make workers reactionary. Good god, learn to follow what people say before you brazenly react with such a snide comment.

Good god, indeed. Marxism as a science (!) should not be recouped into some exercise in positivist thinking. In other words, who the hell cares what "Reactionary Texans" think about the positions of northern unions vis-a-vis the working class in Texas? Furthermore, who exactly have membership in the working class of Texas? Surely you're not forgetting the Mexican undocumented workers, who are worked under brutal conditions and who may not even belong in such a "discourse" of north versus south? The UFWA rank and file is pretty active, and quite radical, and I don't imagine there being too many working class Texas of the stripe you seem to be implying as members.

But what percentage of northern businesses even bothered migrating south? As far as I know most seemed to skip Dixie altogether and went straight to the so-called Third World.

[The Douche]

Nothing human there's no need to be that critical of TX. Austin is a great town and Houston is just as metropolitan as any other big city. The rent is cheaper here in the fourth largest city and people are pouring in by the truckloads and I don't see rent taking a Superman leap. Saying no one wants to be in TX is spurious. The major cities are filling up every day with people from PA, CA, MI, and FL. I see their license plates filling the streets every day.

They're coming cus they get big city living for cheap, not because more people want to be in NYC. Boston and Baltimore have rents just as high as NYC, I don't see people lining up to go there as much.

Sorry, but the situation is a bit better for workers in TX. This doesn't mean it's better overall, it's just in our major cities they get to have a life instead of feeling like they're total peons like on NYC or LA where it's night and day difference the gap in wealth.

Dude, rent in Baltimore is not that high. You can get a 1 bedroom apartment for around 800 a month, and for comparison, I live in a "city" (the biggest in my geographical region) of only 30,000 and my rent is 750.

[La Comédie Noire]

Making jokes about people lying bloody and beaten in the streets? This is the age of reason and the pinnacle of human existence?

I thought we were so clever, classless, and free?