North Korea

[Lokomotive293]

What is North Korea? I know next to nothing about that country.

[Tablo]

North Korea is one of two nation-states formed as a result of the Korean Civil War. They are a party dictatorship that follows ultra-nationalistic Juche ideology and often pisses off Western superpowers and their allies by building nukes.

Not sure how else to answer. What do you want to know about North Korea?

[Искра]

North Korea is country near South Korea. Nobody saw it, but they say it exists.

[Lokomotive293]

What do you want to know about North Korea?

Does anyone here on RevLeft actually think they are socialist? I'm asking because I got into an argument with someone who does and supports them on another forum. I didn't know people like that exist. Forgive me if I sound ignorant.

[Tablo]

Does anyone here on RevLeft actually think they are socialist? I'm asking because I got into an argument with someone who does and supports them on another forum. I didn't know people like that exist. Forgive me if I sound ignorant.
There are a couple, but the vast majority of people here do not see them as socialist. Most people that 'support' them do it from a cold war era anti-imperialist stance.

[LeftAtheist]

There's nothing socialist about North Korea or Juche aside from the name. They're a totalitarian dictatorship with a huge personality cult around Kim Il-sung and his son, the current ruler Kim Jong-il.

Juche itself is essentially a racist ideology as it exults the Korean race as the greatest in the world. It also endorses complete and utter faith and an obedience to the leader (i.e. the Kim dynasty).

Defectors have reported, among other things, massive human rights abuses, total police and state domination of every aspect of life and the crumbling state of the country's infrastructure (most medical equipment, for example, is Cold War era Eastern Bloc equipment).

I've heard all this dismissed as capitalist propaganda by the (few) NK supporters on here but I don't believe that.

[thefinalmarch]

North Korea is a capitalist country.

[28350]

North Korea is one of two nation-states formed as a result of the Korean Civil War. They are a party dictatorship that follows ultra-nationalistic Juche ideology and often pisses off Western superpowers and their allies by building nukes.

Not sure how else to answer. What do you want to know about North Korea?

It is not a nation-state. There is one Korean nation, and two Korean states.

[Commissar Rykov]

Does anyone here on RevLeft actually think they are socialist? I'm asking because I got into an argument with someone who does and supports them on another forum. I didn't know people like that exist. Forgive me if I sound ignorant.
They are about as socialist as Nazi Germany and probably about as brutal if claims against the population are taken at face value.

[Hiero]

Juche itself is essentially a racist ideology as it exults the Korean race as the greatest in the world. Where in any of the Juche literature does it say this?

[Veovis]

What is North Korea? I know next to nothing about that country.

http://daryldean.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/north-korea-is-best-korea.jpg

[o well this is ok I guess]

This sums up the average north korean recreational activity
lwoSFQb5HVk

[Tablo]

It is not a nation-state. There is one Korean nation, and two Korean states.
Do you not understand the term nation-state? Yes, there is one Korean national identity, but there are 2 Korean nation-states.

[Smyg]

One nation, two nation-states. We get it now, I hope.

[El Louton]

They are about as socialist as Nazi Germany and probably about as brutal if claims against the population are taken at face value.

I joke. yeah well it has the word socialism in it so it must be!

[LeftAtheist]

Where in any of the Juche literature does it say this?

I can't post links, but google North Korea racial purity and you'll see an article on UC Berkeley News centre about it. Also, google DPRK view on race and nation and read that piece too. It's pretty unmistakable. North Korea is a racist state.

[Charlie Watt]

I'd argue that any nationalist ideology is inherently racist, but that's largely beside the point here. Brutal militarism is the order of the day in Pyongyang. Police state brutality and totalitarianism. Anyone that makes apologies for the fascist ****s that brutalise the people of that god forsaken country is a fucking moron.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

It's hard to get a serious discussion on the DPRK going because most people just jump into black-and-white cold war stance, over the top rhetoric, or quasi-racist attempts at humor.

It's not something that can be covered in a few lines. But it helps if you try to make a materialist analysis of the situation instead of just raging on your keyboard.

For example, the huge military in the DPRK is a direct result of stuff like, uh, idk... the world's largest super power stationing tens of thousands of soldiers on its border, a few miles from its capital city? The massive conscript army in South Korea? The huge U.S. military presence in Japan, the Philippines, etc.?

Of course the rulers of the DPRK being what they are, they've turned necessity into principle (e.g. 선군정치 -- seon gun jeongchi, or "military first politics;" commonly referred to as "Songun" outside of Korea).

Then there's the DPRK's international isolation, which might have something to do with.. uh, maybe the sudden disappearance of their main trading partners, combined with embargoes and blockades spearheaded by the world's largest national economy?

This has less to do with the DPRK's rulers' policies than it does international relations, since they've been trying to set up China-style "special economic zones" that international capital has largely ignored.

But yeah, North Korea sucks because Kim Jong-il is a racist fascist baby eater and all that. Carry on....

[flobdob]

I'm asking because I got into an argument with someone who does and supports them on another forum. I didn't know people like that exist. Forgive me if I sound ignorant.

Arguing what something is or isn't, at the same time as you say you know "next to nothing" about it is pretty ignorant, yeah.

NHIA has made a very important point about understanding elements of the DPRK in a materialist standpoint. If you want to learn about the DPRK avoid this forum and pick up a book. Tim Beal just put out a new one (http://www.timbeal.net.nz/geopolitics/) a few months back which, while focused on the Cheonan incident, is definately a good introduction to the DPRK, alongside his earlier book (http://www.timbeal.net.nz/geopolitics/NKSAAP_general.htm). Anything is better than trawling the quasi-racist, ignorant bullshit spouted out by so many "leftists".

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

To be clear, I think the disgraceful "anti-imperialist" posturing and bootlicking of the DPRK's rulers by groups like the above poster's RCG (or the WWP, PSL, etc., in the U.S.) is just the flip side of the anti-communist coin.

Neither one has anything to do with human liberation.

[tir1944]

I have reservations for DPRK and their variant of "socialism" however the country should be supported against the ROK/USA threat.

[Smyg]

You know Tir, your fanaticism is starting to grow on me a little bit. :blushing:

[flobdob]

To be clear, I think the disgraceful "anti-imperialist" posturing and bootlicking of the DPRK's rulers by groups like the above poster's RCG (or the WWP, PSL, etc., in the U.S.) is just the flip side of the anti-communist coin.

Neither one has anything to do with human liberation.

I would challenge you to find examples of "bootlicking of the DPRK's rulers" by the RCG, WWP, and PSL, but that'd be just as off topic as your post.

For the OP: for further reading on the DPRK, try Brun and Hersh's "Socialist Korea" - whether or not you agree with their assessment of the DPRK's socialist character, it is one of perhaps a handful of actually informed books on the subject - although it needs updating.

[tir1944]

What fanaticism? I never really posted anything "pro-DPRK".
I'm not a "fan" of Juche or Kims however i support the country on anti-imperialist grounds.

[The CPSU Chairman]

The DPRK is more complicated than a lot of people, even many leftists, tend to think. I'm not denying that there are a lot of genuine criticisms to be made, but when people talk about the DPRK they tend to drop materialist analysis and parrot Capitalist propaganda (no, I am NOT saying that every bad report out of DPRK is Capitalist propaganda).

For example, I always see people (not on this thread, but still) talking about the food shortages there. People talk as if Kim Jong Il is deliberately starving everybody just for the lulz. But no one mentions that dividing Korea in half was a fucking stupid decision that made this sort of thing inevitable, because the climate and geography of the north doesn't allow for much food production. The south had almost all the peninsula's farmland. This wasn't a problem during the Cold War when the USSR and then-Socialist China were supporting the DPRK, but now the DPRK is virtually isolated and totally subjected to a crippling economic embargo that prevents it from importing much food. Once in a while the U.S and the ROK will dangle food aid in front of the DPRK like table scraps in front of a dog on the condition of some kind of "concessions", but other than that the DPRK is pretty much left to its own meager resources on this. The DPRK also has no home-produced oil, and that's the big reason why there isn't much electricity and no cars on the roads.

People criticize the DPRK for maintaining a large army and developing nuclear weapons. Well, no shit. What would any country do when it has no international support and has the world's largest and most aggressive empire knocking at the door with thousands of troops? The "Songun" policy, fucked up as it is, didn't come into being until after the Eastern Bloc fell and the DPRK lost its international support, its trading partners, and its main guarantee against American invasion. I remember before the DPRK developed nukes 5 years ago, there was always talk of the possibility of war there after Bush made that "axis of evil" speech and attacked Iraq. If I were Kim Jong Il, i'd sure as hell want to get nukes too in order to put a stop to that shit.

Beyond that, it's hard to know what exactly is going on in the DPRK. The country's isolation and heavy imperialist propaganda against it only allows for a blurry and vague idea of what things are like. It's hard to know how much workers' control there is (I doubt there's much, if any, but again I don't know), how good healthcare and housing are, etc. The only thing we really know for sure is that food and other resources are in short supply. But it's probably not a very Socialist system. Some things about it are downright reactionary, like the revisionist idea of Songun and the issue of dynastic succession with the leader being viewed like a god. Kim Il Sung is still president, and he died 17 years ago. This makes the DPRK the only country ever (to my knowledge) to be officially led by a corpse. There's the matter of labor camps too, though it's not clear exactly what goes on there. There are some wild myths about those camps being circulated by Capitalist media, but it's hard to separate fact from fiction. Maybe some of it is true, I don't know. I'd assume they're basically like the Stalin-era gulag of the USSR. They're certainly not a good thing, whatever they are.

Going by those things, there probably isn't much to like or support about the DPRK's system. But I have both support and criticism for them. Someday i'd like to visit the place and see if I can learn anything new about the place. A foreigner can't travel without a guide or go wherever he wants, but nevertheless it would be a better way to learn about the place than from the Western media. There really is no way to get the full picture though, at least not yet.

[Jose Gracchus]

"Crippling economic embargo" that "prevents it from importing food"? The DPRK is dependent on food charity transfers from the selfsame powers that impose economic trade policy, so that seems to be quite the bizarre claim. It is also bizarre since I do not think the DPRK has some great reserve of foreign hard currency it would love to blow on more luxurious levels of imports, if only the big-bad West would allow them. How the hell would the DPRK afford much higher imports and living standards, with-or-without the West? The DPRK produces no salable commodities, other than its traumatized proletarians, which are much in demand for superexploitation by Chinese and Russian bourgeoisie. So where would the value come from to conjure up a more favorable balance of trade?

None of this means the ROK isn't a brutalizing bourgeois state, for many decades the shame of Korea both politically and economically, nor does it mean the U.S. is not an extremely imperialist and distorting presence on the Korean peninsula, or anything else like that. Still, the DPRK has been very poorly run, even by prevailing Stalinist standards. But a lot of that has to do with the material hand of cards they were dealt.

[Agent Equality]

All you have to ask yourself when it comes to the question of North Korea is:

Would you want to live there?

A.) Yes
B.) No
______________________

If you picked answer "A.) Yes", Then enjoy your stay while in the worker's paradise that is The Democratic Republic of North Korea!! :star2:
If you picked answer "B.) No", Then you are an imperialist dog-fool who will suffer.

[tir1944]

The dumbest,most idiotic argument every
Seriously,wtf dude?
HURR DURR if you dun like capitalist Murrika why u no git the fuck out and move to Cuba...
Everyone's heard this bullshit from right wingers at least once.

[Krano]

The dumbest,most idiotic argument every
Seriously,wtf dude?
HURR DURR if you dun like capitalist Murrika why u no git the fuck out and move to Cuba...
Everyone's heard this bullshit from right wingers at least once.
Makes as much sense as saying if you like Capitalism so much why dont you move to Somalia.

[black magick hustla]

I would challenge you to find examples of "bootlicking of the DPRK's rulers" by the RCG, WWP, and PSL, but that'd be just as off topic as your post.

For the OP: for further reading on the DPRK, try Brun and Hersh's "Socialist Korea" - whether or not you agree with their assessment of the DPRK's socialist character, it is one of perhaps a handful of actually informed books on the subject - although it needs updating.

hey are u black. why do all pslites, rcgites, wwpites etc have black avatars just curious. do u like immortal technique i looooove immortal technique :scared:

[Ocean Seal]

All you have to ask yourself when it comes to the question of North Korea is:

Would you want to live there?

A.) Yes
B.) No
______________________

If you picked answer "A.) Yes", Then enjoy your stay while in the worker's paradise that is The Democratic Republic of North Korea!! :star2:
If you picked answer "B.) No", Then you are an imperialist dog-fool who will suffer.
Again, I would have thought that NHIA's post would have stopped the string of shitty posts like these. No, no one here wants to live in People's Korea, we get it, but making posts like this isn't productive to understanding the internal problems that the DPRK has. No one here is going to defend them as socialist or better than the ROK. Its a military dictatorship that we understand very little about; there's a reason for the fact that they're up to their asses in nukes, poverty and nationalism.

And for the person who said that its about as socialist and violent as the Nazis, I would have to say that they were wrong. Fascism is a special kind of violent capitalism and the DPRK hasn't committed any sort of ethnic genocide so far, so I'm going to go ahead and claim the moral high ground that I would prefer the DPRK existing to the Nazi's any day.

[rylasasin]

What is North Korea?

A miserable little pile of Juche.

But yeah, just another fascist state wearing the trappings of "socialism"

[Collectorgeneral]

Despite NK's faults, their opposition to the imperialist US is commendable (also their music is great).

[Zostrianos]

Juche is much more than a dictatorial ideology, it's a religion. They've virtually eliminated previous religions (there are a couple of churches in Pyongyang and a handful of buddhist temples, but reportedly they're just for show) and replaced them with the cult of the Kims. As part of government propaganda, the Kims are depicted as demigods, and if I remember correctly, they actually made up a story according to which Kim Il Sung wasn't born, he was sent from Heaven to save the Korean people. And there are also various miracles attributed to the Kims as well.

North Korea is essentially a brutal totalitarian dictatorship, that oppresses and starves its people, while telling them they live in a socialist paradise. And if reports are to be trusted, there is a wide network of concentration camps throughout the country, and any perceived criticism of the regime will not only get you sent into a camp and tortured to death, your entire family will be deported as well to spend the rest of their lives in forced labour. And if you try to flee the country and they catch you, you will be executed, often publicly. Here's a video secretly shot in a NK town, where 2 defectors are publicly judged in a town square for trying to flee the country. One is sentenced to 10 years in a camp, and the other is shot on the spot:
73KOEXPEvok
You don't really see much because they're far away, but it's still disturbing so be warned. The video's fully narrated and subtitled. After the execution, the commander warns the crowd "This is how traitors to the nation end up"

[Nox]

North Korea isn't 'Communist' or even Socialist. It's nowhere near.

There isn't really much I can add except that the ideology, Juche, is a left-wing nationalist system. Also, as some people have said, many of their policies are out of necessity, and their government can't be blamed (to an extent) for the problems that their country faces such as food and energy shortages.

My view on all of this: The DPRK is a Capitalist country that's taking an anti-imperialist stance against other Capitalist countries. So they get my support on that basis.

[tachosomoza]

North Korea is a totalitarian kleptocracy using socialism as a very weak front. The only people who benefit are the Kims.

[Rooster]

My view on all of this: The DPRK is a Capitalist country that's taking an anti-imperialist stance against other Capitalist countries. So they get my support on that basis.

What about their renting out of cheap labour to other countries and off allowing foreign investment in their own? Is that anti-imperialist?

[Zostrianos]

And the DPRK is a class based society, which accounts for the famines. Essentially, government officials and the army are the privileged classes, they are given most of the food resources, and their hospitals are equipped with modern equipment and drugs, and are completely separate from those of the general population, which are practically in ruins. It's essentially a slavery based society, where the government and army are plump and well fed, while the rest of the population work for pennies to keep the country running for those on top, while starving to death. And woe to them if they complain...

[Nox]

What about their renting out of cheap labour to other countries and off allowing foreign investment in their own? Is that anti-imperialist?

No, it isn't. It isn't related to imperialism at all.

[Rooster]

No, it isn't. It isn't related to imperialism at all.

I asked if you thought that was anti-imperialist.

[Rusty Shackleford]

All you have to ask yourself when it comes to the question of North Korea is:

Would you want to live there?

A.) Yes
B.) No
______________________

If you picked answer "A.) Yes", Then enjoy your stay while in the worker's paradise that is The Democratic Republic of North Korea!! :star2:
If you picked answer "B.) No", Then you are an imperialist dog-fool who will suffer.


I dont want to live in Cuba, does that mean i am an imperialist dog-fool who must suffer? or is it that i dont like hot humid weather.

[Revolutionary_Marxist]

North Korea is a stain on the international socialist movement, and inevitably a golden propaganda topic for the capitalists. Their ideolgies of Juche and songun are if anything their own religions like everyone else here has been saying. They definatley aren't capitalist, but they certainty not socialist either. North Korea should have their own political and economic ideology because they simply don't fit anywhere. I have too say though I do support the North Korean stance on imperialism, but nothing else.

[The CPSU Chairman]

And the DPRK is a class based society, which accounts for the famines. Essentially, government officials and the army are the privileged classes, they are given most of the food resources, and their hospitals are equipped with modern equipment and drugs, and are completely separate from those of the general population, which are practically in ruins. It's essentially a slavery based society, where the government and army are plump and well fed, while the rest of the population work for pennies to keep the country running for those on top, while starving to death. And woe to them if they complain...

Um, have you ever seen pictures of North Korean soldiers? They're just as malnourished as everyone else there.

[tir1944]

Um, have you ever seen pictures of North Korean soldiers? They're just as malnourished as everyone else there.
They are? I've seen many pictures of DPRK soldiers,never noticed any malnourishment...How about you provide some evidence,eh?


They definatley aren't capitalist, but they certainty not socialist either.
What are they then?

[Revolutionary_Marxist]

They are? I've seen many pictures of DPRK soldiers,never noticed any malnourishment...How about you provide some evidence,eh?


What are they then?

That's a good question as others have said, we know next too nothing about North Korea. I just personally dont see them as capitalist or socialist.

[OhYesIdid]

Poimandres, source please. You can't expect me to read two vey good posts talking about wild lies in capitalist media and then accept your claims at face value.

[NewLeft]

North Korea's economy is actually growing, but at a much much slower pace.

Now I have never been to North Korea and it's practically impossible without a tour guide.. So what about activists like Norbert Vollertsen? Nevermind the fact that he passed on his knowledge to a congressman and largely ignored, at least he stood up against the human rights abuses. What kind of socialist would use the threat of starvation against a population for control?

[Hiero]

I can't post links, but google North Korea racial purity and you'll see an article on UC Berkeley News centre about it. Also, google DPRK view on race and nation and read that piece too. It's pretty unmistakable. North Korea is a racist state.

I would have to actually read the book.

All the national liberation movements have some element of a conception of a homogeneous nation, an inclosed total entity with a foreign outside. Sometimes the foreign outside seeps inside, bringing without it subervsion and the need for a purge. Like the ideological disposition of Democratic Kampuchea against Vietnamese. Or another example, the Rwandan genocides.

But racial purity and actual racism are different to nationalism. I would be interested to see if anyone has any primary evidence that DPRK has an offical "racial purity" ideaology. Often with DPRK secondary sources are held with the same credibility what we normally give to first hand sources, we often says DPRK IS not it is ALLEGED that the DPRK is.

[Lucretia]

There's nothing socialist about North Korea or Juche aside from the name. They're a totalitarian dictatorship with a huge personality cult around Kim Il-sung and his son, the current ruler Kim Jong-il.

The part about the name being socialist might have been true twenty years ago. Nowadays there is not even an attempt by the NK government to present itself or its governing ideology as Marxist or socialist in any way. That's the whole point about how far out of touch people are if they think that NK is socialist. They are more pro-NK than the North Koreans are!

[Lucretia]

It is not a nation-state. There is one Korean nation, and two Korean states.

Maybe forty years ago. The two peoples have been separated for so long, immersed in entirely different cultures, that I find it a stretch to claim that both North Koreans and South Koreans are a part of the same "nation."

[Lucretia]

The DPRK is more complicated than a lot of people, even many leftists, tend to think. I'm not denying that there are a lot of genuine criticisms to be made, but when people talk about the DPRK they tend to drop materialist analysis and parrot Capitalist propaganda (no, I am NOT saying that every bad report out of DPRK is Capitalist propaganda).

For example, I always see people (not on this thread, but still) talking about the food shortages there. People talk as if Kim Jong Il is deliberately starving everybody just for the lulz. But no one mentions that dividing Korea in half was a fucking stupid decision that made this sort of thing inevitable, because the climate and geography of the north doesn't allow for much food production. The south had almost all the peninsula's farmland. This wasn't a problem during the Cold War when the USSR and then-Socialist China were supporting the DPRK, but now the DPRK is virtually isolated and totally subjected to a crippling economic embargo that prevents it from importing much food. Once in a while the U.S and the ROK will dangle food aid in front of the DPRK like table scraps in front of a dog on the condition of some kind of "concessions", but other than that the DPRK is pretty much left to its own meager resources on this. The DPRK also has no home-produced oil, and that's the big reason why there isn't much electricity and no cars on the roads.

People criticize the DPRK for maintaining a large army and developing nuclear weapons. Well, no shit. What would any country do when it has no international support and has the world's largest and most aggressive empire knocking at the door with thousands of troops? The "Songun" policy, fucked up as it is, didn't come into being until after the Eastern Bloc fell and the DPRK lost its international support, its trading partners, and its main guarantee against American invasion. I remember before the DPRK developed nukes 5 years ago, there was always talk of the possibility of war there after Bush made that "axis of evil" speech and attacked Iraq. If I were Kim Jong Il, i'd sure as hell want to get nukes too in order to put a stop to that shit.

Beyond that, it's hard to know what exactly is going on in the DPRK. The country's isolation and heavy imperialist propaganda against it only allows for a blurry and vague idea of what things are like. It's hard to know how much workers' control there is (I doubt there's much, if any, but again I don't know), how good healthcare and housing are, etc. The only thing we really know for sure is that food and other resources are in short supply. But it's probably not a very Socialist system. Some things about it are downright reactionary, like the revisionist idea of Songun and the issue of dynastic succession with the leader being viewed like a god. Kim Il Sung is still president, and he died 17 years ago. This makes the DPRK the only country ever (to my knowledge) to be officially led by a corpse. There's the matter of labor camps too, though it's not clear exactly what goes on there. There are some wild myths about those camps being circulated by Capitalist media, but it's hard to separate fact from fiction. Maybe some of it is true, I don't know. I'd assume they're basically like the Stalin-era gulag of the USSR. They're certainly not a good thing, whatever they are.

Going by those things, there probably isn't much to like or support about the DPRK's system. But I have both support and criticism for them. Someday i'd like to visit the place and see if I can learn anything new about the place. A foreigner can't travel without a guide or go wherever he wants, but nevertheless it would be a better way to learn about the place than from the Western media. There really is no way to get the full picture though, at least not yet.

Ultimately the discussion boils down to how socialism is defined. If you think there can be socialism in one country, introduced by high-level government officials who exercise authoritarian dictatorship over the very people whose "self-activity" was identified by Marx as the driving force behind socialism, then yeah, by all means NK is "socialist."

If you do not insist on isolating abstract property forms from their underlying relations of production, and acknowledge that socialism -- not a dictatorship of the proletariat -- can only be achieved on an international level by the workers themselves through their ongoing struggle, then it's obvious that NK is not socialist.

[A Marxist Historian]

That's a good question as others have said, we know next too nothing about North Korea. I just personally dont see them as capitalist or socialist.

I'd sAy the North Korean economy is a transitional economy in between capitalism and socialism. Given all the notorious unpleasant features of the North Korean regime, a lot closer to capitalism than socialism, and moving in the wrong direction.

There have been quite a lot of concessions to foreign capitalists in a desperate attempt to keep the mismanaged North Korean economy going. The workers in these sweatshops are treated abominably by the foreign concessionaires, backed by the weight of the ultra-Stalinist Kim Il Sung dynasty.

Sooner or later, unless the workers revolt in Korea (north and south, it really is still one divided country), the Stalinist dictatorship will simply collapse, and North Korean workers will discover, as workers did in the Soviet Union, that there really are worse things than Stalinist dictatorship. Much worse. Right now at least the outside world has reasons to send some food aid, so as to get North Korean workers to think capitalism would be better.

That will no longer be the case when the dictatorship falls, and South Korea would be bankrupted if it tried to rebuild North Korea on a capitalist basis. So even if outright starvation ends, you can expect to see total collapse of the North Korean economy and permanent unemployment for 90% of the population. With nobody willing to pay unemployment payments, as North Korea just isn't East Germany. It would look like Bladerunner.

The current setup in North Korea simply can't possibly last forever, so too much effort trying to slap a label on it is a mistake. It is not permanent enough to be dignified as some new type of society. What keeps it going is the memory of the millions of North Koreans exterminated by the US during the Korean War, which made the Vietnam War look downright nice. So the North Korean people desperately still stand behind their dictators as the lesser evil. Rightly so when you get right down to it.

-M.H.-

[Inner Peace]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3268/2854615637_dd0a78ab82.jpg
http://www.neoconnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/kimjongil.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/6kjhqzd

[Inner Peace]

http://stateofmind13.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/unhate-north-korea-south-korea.jpg?w=569&h=402
Oh yea and here is some gay porno i found with kim jong,its relay good

[A Marxist Historian]

I would have to actually read the book.

All the national liberation movements have some element of a conception of a homogeneous nation, an inclosed total entity with a foreign outside. Sometimes the foreign outside seeps inside, bringing without it subervsion and the need for a purge. Like the ideological disposition of Democratic Kampuchea against Vietnamese. Or another example, the Rwandan genocides.

But racial purity and actual racism are different to nationalism. I would be interested to see if anyone has any primary evidence that DPRK has an offical "racial purity" ideaology. Often with DPRK secondary sources are held with the same credibility what we normally give to first hand sources, we often says DPRK IS not it is ALLEGED that the DPRK is.

The official ideology of North Korea is still Marxism, not racism or nationalism. I've seen some official North Korean party stuff occasionally. Dogmatic, unreadable, but politically not too different from quite a few Revleft postings. There's a good dose of Korean nationalism mixed in, but that comes naturally for anyone who follows Stalin's conception of "socialism in one country." Not too different from Stalin's Russia or Mao's China or Fidel's Cuba.

Quite different from Pol Pot's Kampuchea, whose first deed on victory was to round up the entire urban population at gunpoint, including the entire proletariat, and march them off to the rice paddies at gunpoint. North Korea by contrast considers itself a workers state, industrialized in the best Stalinist fashion, not a backward looking peasant dystopia after the model of ancient Khmer empires, whose genocidal racism was more Hitlerite than Stalinist.

For westerners, the North Koreans tone down the Marxism a bit, trying to sound modern and not just weirdo dogmatists. Thus, here's the page about the history of North Korea and the glories of the glorious leadership of Kim Jong Il and his party from the official North Korean website.

http://www.korea-dpr.com/ocn/

If you want more orthodox "Marxism Leninism," you have to learn Korean and read the Pyongyang newspapers, as they know this is not a commodity that sells well in foreign markets these days.

-M.H.-

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

And the DPRK is a class based society, which accounts for the famines. Essentially, government officials and the army are the privileged classes, they are given most of the food resources, and their hospitals are equipped with modern equipment and drugs, and are completely separate from those of the general population, which are practically in ruins. It's essentially a slavery based society, where the government and army are plump and well fed, while the rest of the population work for pennies to keep the country running for those on top, while starving to death. And woe to them if they complain...Actually, that really has little to do with the famines. The DPRK is one of the few places in the world where the famines are not caused by social relations (as they are in some places where "famines" really amount to people not being able to afford to purchase food -- there have been famines reported in the horn of Africa while the countries there were simultaneously exporting food, for example). On the contrary, their system of distribution (rationing) has actually limited the effects of food shortages according to the UN.

About food distribution and the army being well-fed (which kinda runs contrairy to the rest of your argument, since the army has 1,100,000 active members, with another 8,000,000+ reserves -- out of a total population of 24,000,000):

"Provincial authorities reacted to human insecurities by attempting to maintain a minimum food distribution to the most needy of their populations. They were also flexible in permitting the wide variety of decentralized coping mechanisms that included the toleration of markets and the growth of unregulated petty trade.... The armed forces were given priority for food distribution, but this did not mean that all members of the armed forces received generous rations. The army was told to find ways to grow its own food and to develop industries so that it could purchase food and other necessities from the markets and from abroad. There were no indication that the ranks of the army were given excessively large rations..." - Hazel Smith. Hungry For Peace: International Security, Humanitarian Assistance, And Social Change in North Korea. pp 87

Let's briefly look at the food shortages and try to get at the root causes.

1990 - Growth in energy, industry and agriculture stops for the first time in DPRK history as the country's trading partners in the "Socialist Bloc" collapse. Imports of necessities like fertilizer and fuel cease. Economy screeches to a halt.

1995/1996 - Some of the worst floods in the history of the world occur in the DPRK. According to the UN: "Flooding of this magnitude had not been recorded in at least 70 years." More than a million tons of food lost, crops ruined. The flooding destroys coal mines and absolutely cripples hydroelectric power production (which is the major source of electricity) -- more sources of energy gone. Combine this with the loss of fertilizer and fuel imports and industrialized agriculture becomes almost impossible. Between the floods in this period came some of the worst droughts in history, which also reeked havoc on crops and hydroelectricity.

Now - Although food production nearly doubled between 1997 and 2007, a lot of that progress was destroyed by another huge series of floods in 2007 that was combined with the reductions of food donations from abroad that the country became reliant on. The situation remains tenuous.

Also remember that the DPRK got the short end of the stick in agriculture, since only 14% of its land is arable (compared to 19% in the south). It's a mountainous (80% of the country is covered in mountains) and cold place. This photo says a lot:

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/9417/koreao.jpg

I've studied Korea a bit, but even someone who hasn't could have probably found all this info with Google and about 30 minutes of free time. But why do that? This is DPRK we're talking about! One can literally make up whatever the fuck they want and pass it off as truth, and most people will accept it.

So yeah, ignore everything I've written. Kim Il-Sung canceled the import of fuel and fertilizer in 91 on his own accord, because he wanted more money to buy virgins from abroad for his concubine. He also ordered that crops be ripped up so that he could have dozens of golf courses built for his personal use. Kim Jong-il had the country's diabolical scientists bring the massive rains and flooding in the mid-90's because he wanted to try his new surf board on the Amnoc River. The later famine was created because the army had huge buffets on a daily basis celebrating their superiority, because the DPRK is a fascist racist regime run by madmen.

The bourgeois media paves the way; the leftists utilize the opening... Good job folks!

[Lucretia]

Actually, that really has nothing to do with the famines. DPRK is one of the few places in the world where the famines are not caused by social relations (as they are in some places where "famines" really amount to people not being able to afford to purchase food -- there have been famines reported in the horn of Africa while the country were simultaneously exporting food, for example). On the contrary, their national system of distribution has actually limited the effects of food shortages according to the UN.

"Provincial authorities reacted to human insecurities by attempting to maintain a minimum food distribution to the most needy of their populations. They were also flexible in permitting the wide variety of decentralized coping mechanisms that included the toleration of markets and the growth of unregulated petty trade.... The armed forces were given priority for food distribution, but this did not mean that all members of the armed forces received generous rations. The army was told to find ways to grow its own food and to develop industries so that it could purchase food and other necessities from the markets and from abroad. There were no indication that the ranks of the army were given excessively large rations..." - Hazel Smith. Hungry For Peace: International Security, Humanitarian Assistance, And Social Change in North Korea. pp 87

Let's briefly look at the food shortages and try to get at the root causes.

1990 - Growth in energy, industry and agriculture stops for the first time in DPRK history as the country's trading partners in the "Socialist Bloc" collapse. Imports of necessities like fertilizer and fuel cease. Economy screeches to a halt.

1995/1996 - Some of the worst floods in the history of the world occur in the DPRK. According to the UN: "Flooding of this magnitude had not been recorded in at least 70 years." More than a million tons of food lost, crops ruined. The flooding destroys coal mines and absolutely cripples hydroelectric power production (which is the major source of electricity) -- more sources of energy gone. Combine this with the loss of fertilizer and fuel imports and industrialized agriculture becomes almost impossible. Between the floods in this period came some of the worst droughts in history, which also reeked havoc on crops and hydroelectricity.

Now - Although food production nearly doubled between 1997 and 2007, a lot of that progress was destroyed by another huge series of floods in 2007 that was combined with the reductions of food donations from abroad that the country became reliant on. The situation remains tenuous.

Also remember that the DPRK got the short end of the stick in agriculture, since only 14% of its land is arable (compared to 19% in the south). It's a mountainous (80% of the country is covered in mountains) and cold place. This photo says a lot:

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/9417/koreao.jpg

I've studied Korea a bit, but even someone who hasn't could have probably found all this info with Google and about 30 minutes of free time. But why do that? This is DPRK we're talking about! One can literally make up whatever the fuck they want and pass it off as truth, and most people will accept it.

So yeah, ignore everything I've written. Kim Il-Sung canceled the import of fuel and fertilizer in 91 on his own accord, because he wanted more money to buy virgins from abroad for his concubine. He also ordered that crops be ripped up so that he could have dozens of golf courses built for his personal use. Kim Jong-il had the country's diabolical scientists bring the massive rains and flooding in the mid-90's because he wanted to try his new surf board on the Amnoc River. The later famine was created because the army had huge buffets on a daily basis celebrating their superiority, because the DPRK is a fascist racist regime run by madmen.

The bourgeois media paves the way; the leftists utilize the opening... Good job folks!


I think in your righteous indignation against those who criticize NK, you would be well advised not to conflate criticisms of a scientific nature, directed at the ruling regime for being an exploitative class, and more moralistic criticisms directed against the regime for the way it carries out its exploitation.

[Lucretia]

The official ideology of North Korea is still Marxism, not racism or nationalism.

This is false. Please provide me with one example of an official governing document from NK that claims the basis of its government is Marxism, Leninism, or socialism.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I think in your righteous indignation against those who criticize NK, you would be well advised not to conflate criticisms of a scientific nature, directed at the ruling regime for being an exploitative class, and more moralistic criticisms directed against the regime for the way it carries out its exploitation.

I don't know what you're talking about, and frankly I don't think you do either.

There hasn't been much "scientific" criticism in this thread at all. It's been almost entirely the same old quasi-racist bullshit that sounds like a parody of 1950's style anti-communism.

Yeah, we all know Kim Jong-il and co. suck. No one in their right mind would uphold their "enlightened leadership." The problem comes when people make all sorts of idiotic statements, single out Korea for special criticism (don't see a lot of threads around here on the regime in Saudi Arabia do you?), compare their imperialist "homelands" favorably with the DPRK, echo the arguments of "their own" rulers, etc. -- and all without a gram of source material to back up anything they say.

I've posted factual evidence, with the intent of trying to show how to develop a materialist analysis of the situation.

It helps to know something about a topic before discussing it.

[Lucretia]

I'd sAy the North Korean economy is a transitional economy in between capitalism and socialism. Given all the notorious unpleasant features of the North Korean regime, a lot closer to capitalism than socialism, and moving in the wrong direction.

There have been quite a lot of concessions to foreign capitalists in a desperate attempt to keep the mismanaged North Korean economy going. The workers in these sweatshops are treated abominably by the foreign concessionaires, backed by the weight of the ultra-Stalinist Kim Il Sung dynasty.

Sooner or later, unless the workers revolt in Korea (north and south, it really is still one divided country), the Stalinist dictatorship will simply collapse, and North Korean workers will discover, as workers did in the Soviet Union, that there really are worse things than Stalinist dictatorship. Much worse. Right now at least the outside world has reasons to send some food aid, so as to get North Korean workers to think capitalism would be better.

That will no longer be the case when the dictatorship falls, and South Korea would be bankrupted if it tried to rebuild North Korea on a capitalist basis. So even if outright starvation ends, you can expect to see total collapse of the North Korean economy and permanent unemployment for 90% of the population. With nobody willing to pay unemployment payments, as North Korea just isn't East Germany. It would look like Bladerunner.

The current setup in North Korea simply can't possibly last forever, so too much effort trying to slap a label on it is a mistake. It is not permanent enough to be dignified as some new type of society. What keeps it going is the memory of the millions of North Koreans exterminated by the US during the Korean War, which made the Vietnam War look downright nice. So the North Korean people desperately still stand behind their dictators as the lesser evil. Rightly so when you get right down to it.

-M.H.-

Every economy is "transitional" in the sense that it is always in motion, changing, adapting to new circumstances (technology, etc). As a result, no mode of production lasts forever. Marx was clear that even capitalism, due to its internal contradictions, must reach an end point (what comes afterward is, of course, historically contingent).

The question is, is NK a class society or not? It can't be midway between the two. The workers either exercise control over the means of production and arrive at decisions about production and distribution democratically, or they don't. If the latter is the case, it's an exploitative class society ruled by a minority. And that raises the question: what kind of a class society? Since it's the exploitative rule by the minority, it certainly can't be a "workers' state" with a "dictatorship of the proletariat," which requires workers to have effective control over the economy and thus the political system.

So what is it?

[Lucretia]

I don't know what you're talking about, and frankly I don't think you do either.

There hasn't been much "scientific" criticism in this thread at all. It's been almost entirely the same old quasi-racist bullshit that sounds like a parody of 1950's style anti-communism.

Yeah, we all know Kim Jong-il and co. suck. No one in their right mind would uphold their "enlightened leadership." The problem comes when people make all sorts of idiotic statements, single out Korea for special criticism (don't see a lot of threads around here on the regime in Saudi Arabia do you?), compare their imperialist "homelands" favorably with the DPRK, echo the arguments of "their own" rulers, etc. -- and all without a gram of source material to back up anything they say.

I've posted factual evidence, with the intent of trying to show how to develop a materialist analysis of the situation.

It helps to know something about a topic before discussing it.

You've masqueraded apologia for the regime as some sort of informed objective and disinterested viewpoint, and implied that somebody must be a racist reactionary knuckle-dragger for acknowledging that the Kim regime for the dictatorial and brutal government it is. You're right, NHIA. I suppose sending the family members of defectors to concentration camps is necessary because the US military is parked at its border. Totally necessary.

This hasn't been your finest moment on this forum, NHIA.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

This is false. Please provide me with one example of an official governing document from NK that claims the basis of its government is Marxism, Leninism, or socialism.

"PYONGYANG, September 5 (KCNA) -- The first session of the 10th Supreme People's Assembly of the DPRK today discussed 'on amendment and supplement to the socialist constitution of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.'" - http://www1.korea-np.co.jp/pk/059th_issue/98090703.htm

[Lucretia]

"PYONGYANG, September 5 (KCNA) -- The first session of the 10th Supreme People's Assembly of the DPRK today discussed 'on amendment and supplement to the socialist constitution of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.'" - http://www1.korea-np.co.jp/pk/059th_issue/98090703.htm

I'm sorry, but some japanese news web site's characterization of what the NK economy is, is not a Korean governing document. People in the US government also call NK "socialist." I am not talking about other countries or people describe NK.

I am talking about how the NK government describes itself. Look at their web site and show me where I'm wrong.

[Comrade Samuel]

I watched a documentary on nation geographic called "inside north Korea" I found it very informative if you ever get the chance look it up.

[Lucretia]

"PYONGYANG, September 5 (KCNA) -- The first session of the 10th Supreme People's Assembly of the DPRK today discussed 'on amendment and supplement to the socialist constitution of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.'" - http://www1.korea-np.co.jp/pk/059th_issue/98090703.htm

Sorry, I stand corrected. The constitution of the DPRK claims it is socialist, but makes no references to Marxism, Lenin, etc.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_North_Korea_(1972) (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_North_Korea_%281972%29)

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

You've masqueraded apologia for the regime as some sort of informed objective and disinterested viewpoint

Understanding material conditions and motivation for actions is in no way equal to "apologia." You can't come up with a single post of mine defending the rulers of the DPRK. Not one.

But don't let that stop you from slandering me instead of addressing anything I've written.

And no, I'm not "disinterested." I'm interested in Korea and Korean history, and my allegiance is with the international proletariat.


acknowledging that the Kim regime for the dictatorial and brutal government it is.

Pretty sure everyone on earth acknowledges that. The bourgeois media has done a real good job at spreading the word -- with the help of good little leftists of course.

Not "acknowledged" nearly as much: the brutality of the bourgeois dictatorships in places like Saudi Arabia, Britain .... South Korea.


You're right, NHIA. I suppose sending the family members of defectors to concentration camps is necessary because the US military is parked at its border. Totally necessary.

This hasn't been your finest moment on this forum, NHIA.

Listen, the next time you pick up a copy of the ISO's liberal rag that you love so much, why don't you just take send in your membership application. You'll fit right in. You can get together and criticize the DPRK at the next branch meeting while you prepare to campaign for the anti-union, anti-immigrant bourgeois reformist Ralph Nader.

Your finest moments on this forum come when you don't post.

[Lucretia]

Pretty sure everyone on earth acknowledges that. The bourgeois media has done a real good job at spreading the word -- with the help of good little leftists of course.

You just don't get it, do you? When you make snide, juvenile little remarks like this -- linking the bourgeois media with criticisms of North Korea -- you are implying that to criticize North Korea is to line up with capitalism. You're linking the two. It's a cheap debate tacitic, and it's utter rubbish, NHIA. You of all people should be above it.


Not "acknowledged" nearly as much: the brutality of the bourgeois dictatorships in places like Saudi Arabia, Britain .... South Korea.Excuse me? The abuses that the governments of the USA, Britain, and Israel are responsible for is the constant source of ridicule and criticism on this forum. If middle eastern dictatorships aren't criticized as much, it's because they don't try to cloak their dictatorship under the mantle of socialism in a way that harms the real struggle. Of course socialists are going to go through disproportionate lengths to clarify that the NK isn't socialist, and that real socialists condemn that regime.


Listen, the next time you pick up a copy of the ISO's liberal rag that you love so much, why don't you just take send in your membership application. You'll fit right in. You can get together and criticize the DPRK at the next branch meeting while you prepare to campaign for the anti-union, anti-immigrant bourgeois reformist Ralph Nader.

Your finest moments on this forum come when you don't post.

Fascinating, conclusion, NHIA. If I criticize the Kim regime, I am a liberal who is brainwashed by and spouts the criticisms of liberal media.

But wait, you're not saying that criticism of NK is illegimate, right? I'm sure we're all just misunderstanding you.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I'm sorry, but some japanese news web site's characterization of what the NK economy is, is not a Korean governing document. People in the US government also call NK "socialist." I am not talking about other countries or people describe NK.

I am talking about how the NK government describes itself. Look at their web site and show me where I'm wrong.

Again, it usually helps to know what you're talking about before opening your mouth (or moving your fingers in this case).

That "Japanese website" is published by 재일본 조선인 총련합회 (the General Association of Korean Residents in Japan), the DPRK-aligned organization for Koreans in Japan that has acted as the go-between for the Japanese and DPRK governments for years, since they have no official diplomatic relations.

And the article was from the KCNA, the official state news agency of the DPRK.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I'm not going to respond to any more of your State Department Socialist bullshit. It's clear to anyone who looks at this thread who is blinded by ideology. You haven't even attempted to address a single fact I've posted (except to challenge the source of one -- incorrectly).

I've never defended the rulers of the DPRK. I've explained the motivation behind its their maneuvers, the causes of the famines that have hit the country recently, etc.

Why don't you write all your anti-communist slander and quasi-red baiting on a bookmark and stick in the next Callinicos masterpiece you pick up?

[Lucretia]

Again, it usually helps to know what you're talking about before opening your mouth (or moving your fingers in this case).

That "Japanese website" is published by 재일본 조선인 총련합회 (the General Association of Korean Residents in Japan), the DPRK-aligned organization for Koreans in Japan that has acted as the go-between for the Japanese and DPRK governments for years, since they have no official diplomatic relations.

And the article was from the KCNA, the official state news agency of the DPRK.

I have already corrected myself earlier in the thread. NK identifies itself as socialist, but has deliberately removed all references to Marx, Lenin, etc. from its governing documents, including its constitution (linked to above).

[Lucretia]

I'm not going to respond to any more of your State Department Socialist bullshit. It's clear to anyone who looks at this thread who is blinded by ideology. You haven't even attempted to address a single fact I've posted (except to challenge the source of one -- incorrectly).

I've never defended the rulers of the DPRK. I've explained the motivation behind its their maneuvers, the causes of the famines that have hit the country recently, etc.

Why don't you write all your anti-communist slander and quasi-red baiting on a bookmark and stick in the next Callinicos masterpiece you pick up?

Right. You've never defended the rulers of the DPRK, but you insist that people who criticize them must by definition be liberals brainwashed by the State Department and bourgeois media.

I'm sure we'll all rest easier knowing that your attempts at demonizing all criticisms of the regime as "liberal" does not constitute a defense of the regime.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Right. You've never defended the rulers of the DPRK, but you insist that people who criticize them must by definition be liberals brainwashed by the State Department and bourgeois media.

I'm sure we'll all rest easier knowing that your attempts at demonizing all criticisms of the regime as "liberal" does not constitute a defense of the regime.Except that I have criticized them, in this thread, long before you popped up. So again, you either don't know the fuck you are talking about or are practicing intentional stupidity.

The difference is that I criticize from the position of the international proletariat, as opposed to Washington/Tokyo/Seoul. I also try to understand the material conditions and causes behind things instead of just shooting off a bunch of meaningless bullshit or a the kind of thing you could find in a Daily Mail editorial.

* * *

For anyone interested, there have been a lot of changes to the constitution of the DPRK, each reflecting the interests of the ruling class. The original version was adopted in 1948. Changes were adopted in 1972, 1983, 1998, and 2009.

The only English translation of the most recent version I know of online is at: http://issuu.com/han.korea/docs/dprk_consitution_translation?mode=a_p&wmode=0 It's not a great translation.

The opening salvo is:

"Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a Socialist country which have [sic] realized the great leader Il Sung Kim's ideology and leadership."

There is no longer any need to mouth allegiance to the official ideology of the Socialist Bloc ("Marxism-Leninism") since it no longer exists. Isolated by international events and conditions, the rulers of the DPRK have concocted a new ideology of "self-reliance" to replace it.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Sooner or later, unless the workers revolt in Korea (north and south, it really is still one divided country), the Stalinist dictatorship will simply collapse, and North Korean workers will discover, as workers did in the Soviet Union, that there really are worse things than Stalinist dictatorship. Much worse. Right now at least the outside world has reasons to send some food aid, so as to get North Korean workers to think capitalism would be better.

That will no longer be the case when the dictatorship falls, and South Korea would be bankrupted if it tried to rebuild North Korea on a capitalist basis. So even if outright starvation ends, you can expect to see total collapse of the North Korean economy and permanent unemployment for 90% of the population. With nobody willing to pay unemployment payments, as North Korea just isn't East Germany. It would look like Bladerunner.Right. It's pure fantasy to imagine that South Korea could integrate the shattered remains of the DPRK were it to fall apart. That's a big part of why the regime in the south plays a role in maintaining the status quo.

Already in South Korea the recent class of university graduates is being called the "880,000 Won Generation." Why? Because if they're "lucky enough" to find employment as temporary/contract workers, they can expect to earn around 880,000 ₩ ($770) a month.

The DPRK has been trying to establish "special economic zones" for years, promising that it has some of the cheapest, most disciplined workers in the world. International capital has been unable to take advantage of even that.

[Lucretia]

Except that I have criticized them, in this thread, long before you popped up. So again, you either don't know the fuck you are talking about or are practicing intentional stupidity.

The difference is that I criticize from the position of the international proletariat, as opposed to Washington/Tokyo/Seoul. I also try to understand the material conditions and causes behind things instead of just shooting off a bunch of meaningless bullshit or a the kind of thing you could find in a Daily Mail editorial.

That was a quick response for somebody who supposedly wasn't going to respond anymore to my alleged "state department" remarks.

Please explain to me what your criticisms are, and how they differ from mine in a way that makes mine the mouthpiece of imperialist governments and yours the embodiment of all that is proletarian in the world.

How many won should I put up that you won't be able to do this?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

North Korea is essentially a brutal totalitarian dictatorship

And so is South Korea.

Heard of the National Security Act? That makes it illegal to "promote anti-government ideas" or even to fail to report someone else who does.

Protestors against the FTA with the U.S. have been sprayed with water canons in freezing temperatures just this month.

Eight members of the Socialist Workers League of Korea were tried and convicted for propagating their ideas (which oppose both North and South Korea) a few months earlier: http://www.revleft.com/vb/workers-south-korea-t147804/index.html

People have been arrested, beaten, tortured, killed, for saying "the wrong thing": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Act_%28South_Korea%29

Websites, books, movies, even some subjects of discussion are effectively banned.

Ah, good old bourgeois democracy!

[Lucretia]

And so is South Korea.

Heard of the National Security Act? That makes it illegal to "promote anti-government ideas" or even to fail to report someone else who does.

Protestors against the FTA with the U.S. have been sprayed with water canons in freezing temperatures just this month.

Eight members of the Socialist Workers League of Korea were tried and convicted for propagating their ideas (which oppose both North and South Korea) a few months earlier: http://www.revleft.com/vb/workers-south-korea-t147804/index.html

People have been arrested, beaten, tortured, killed, for saying "the wrong thing": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Act_%28South_Korea%29

Websites, books, movies, even some subjects of discussion are effectively banned.

Ah, good old bourgeois democracy!

Maybe my supposed "anti-communism" (since, according to you, my criticisms of the ruling class of the DPRK make me anti-communist rather than anti-ruling-class) is blinding me here, but I don't get what your point is.

Is your point that, because there are human rights abuses in South Korea, we should feign some kind of strange journalistic objectivity and say, "Oh, well, they both abuse human rights, so I guess we can't criticize the one without criticizing the other for balance"?

There are human rights abuses all over the globe, but that doesn't mean that some countries aren't particularly egregious in the disparity that exists between the freedoms and comforts of its elites, and the lack of freedom and oppression of its worst off.

NK is among the worst. Part of this is due to circumstances beyond its control -- the amount of arable land it has at its disposal, the threat of military conquest, etc.. But some of its is just excessively over-the-top and cannot reasonably attributed to strategic necessity. It's the product of a bizarre ruling family that insists on having itself worshiped as some kind of quasi-deity.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Is your point that, because there are human rights abuses in South Korea, we should feign some kind of strange journalistic objectivity and say, "Oh, well, they both abuse human rights, so I guess we can't criticize the one without criticizing the other for balance"?Yes, especially when the bourgeois media exactly "criticizes one without criticizing the other."

There's no way you can deny that the bourgeois press spends 100 times the ink attacking its enemies than its allies. Every other day there is some attack and scaremongering piece in the U.S. press about the DPRK. Not so much the U.S.'s allies in Saudi Arabia, where ancient theocratic law rules and women literally live like domestic slaves. Not so much about the bourgeois dictatorship in South Korea. Why is that?

When you align yourself with your own ruling class by lining up with its campaign against a rival (e.g. Schatman's crap about "Stalinism" being worse than capitalism, leading him to back the U.S. war in Viet Nam) you've crossed over.

There is a big difference between:

#1 Criticizing the rulers of the DPRK from the positions of the international proletariat; recognizing that the bureaucracy controls the means of production and society, ruling on the backs of the workers while claiming to be their representatives; recognizing that the regimes of North and South play into each other, and seek to pit workers against each other to further their own interests; calling for mass refusals to fight to defend either set of rulers, and instead to fraternize with each other and find common interests; recognizing the need for all U.S. and UN military forces to be removed from Korea and East Asia by means of revolution there and/or in the imperialist homelands, mass force/hot cargoing, etc., or defeat; calling for workers revolution on both sides of the DNZ to topple both regimes as the only way forward.

And:

#2 Criticizing the DPRK rulers from the position of the bourgeoisie; echoing the anti-communist rightist arguments of the bourgeoisie and its mouth piece; making quasi-racist attempts at humor and extreme claims, characterizing the Korean rulers as "nuts" and spreading rumors that help the bourgeoisie build it's "case" against its rivals in the DPRK's bureaucracy; criticizing the size of the DPRK military without ever mentioning the massive U.S./south Korean/UN military forces stationed in and around Korea; continually talking about the repressive nature of the dictatorship in the DPRK without ever mentioning the repression handed out by the bourgeois dictatorship in the south; screaming and crying about the DPRK's "military ambitions" while forgetting to mention that the DPRK has never invaded another country, that there are U.S. and UN troops in Korea, that the conditions of Korea today stem from the actions of imperialist Japan which ravaged and raped its was across half of Asia; making enough keystrokes to power a small village in outrage over the DPRK's nuclear program while ignoring that the U.S. has the most nuclear weapons of any country in the world, is the only country to ever have used them, and that these weapons are pointed at places like China and the DPRK; doing all of this in a way that helps divide workers along national lines.

And yeah, I'm not interested in playing the "degrees" of repression game. I know where that leads: Cliffites cheering the disintegration of the Socialist Bloc, which brought misery to millions and millions of working people and emboldened U.S./Euro imperialism to launch new adventures & Chomsky proclaiming the U.S. the "best country in the world" (in between endorsing Democratic candidates in presidential elections).

[Lucretia]

There is a big difference between:

#1 Criticizing the rulers of the DPRK from the positions of the international proletariat; recognizing that the bureaucracy controls the means of production and society, ruling on the backs of the workers while claiming to be their representatives; recognizing that the regimes of North and South play into each other, and seek to pit workers against each other to further their own interests; calling for mass refusals to fight to defend either set of rulers, and instead to fraternize with each other and find common interests; recognizing the need for all U.S. and UN military forces to be removed from Korea and East Asia by means of revolution there and/or in the imperialist homelands, mass force/hot cargoing, etc., or defeat; calling for workers revolution on both sides of the DNZ to topple both regimes as the only way forward.

And:

#2 Criticizing the DPRK rulers from the position of the bourgeoisie; echoing the anti-communist rightist arguments of the bourgeoisie and its mouth piece; making quasi-racist attempts at humor and extreme claims, characterizing the Korean rulers as "nuts" and spreading rumors that help the bourgeoisie build it's "case" against its rivals in the DPRK's bureaucracy; criticizing the size of the DPRK military without ever mentioning the massive U.S./south Korean/UN military forces stationed in and around Korea; continually talking about the repressive nature of the dictatorship in the DPRK without ever mentioning the repression handed out by the bourgeois dictatorship in the south; screaming and crying about the DPRK's "military ambitions" while forgetting to mention that the DPRK has never invaded another country, that there are U.S. and UN troops in Korea, that the conditions of Korea today stem from the actions of imperialist Japan which ravaged and raped its was across half of Asia; making enough keystrokes to power a small village in outrage over the DPRK's nuclear program while ignoring that the U.S. has the most nuclear weapons of any country in the world, is the only country to ever have used them, and that these weapons are pointed at places like China and the DPRK; doing all of this in a way that helps divide workers along national lines.

There are a few problems here, but the most glaring one is your equating proletarian solidarity with having to "balance" criticisms of North Korea with criticisms of other ruling classes. So anytime we note that workers are mistreated to a degree not present throughout much of the rest of the world, we have to throw in some balancing criticism of the way some newspaper in South Korea is shut down.

It just doesn't occur to you that there are degrees of freedom in class societies, contingent not just upon external conditions imposed by international politics and military competition but also upon domestic variables, and that this means that some societies should stand in for more criticism than others -- particularly when those societies are claiming to represent a form of socialism. You seem to think if we acknowledge this that we are somehow running to defense of the ruling class of some other country. It's simply not true. What it is doing is standing up for a particularly abused proletariat and not pretending that their conditions are the same as everywhere else (or what they would be if every other country faced the same strategic situation as DPRK).

How you can mistake this for support for imperialism or the State Department is mystifying. Workers in the US are more mistreated than those in France, and noting this is not rushing to the defense of the French ruling class.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

There are a few problems here, but the most glaring one is your equating proletarian solidarity with having to "balance" criticisms of North Korea with criticisms of other ruling classes.Uhhh... yeah. Opposition to nations and their rulers is at the heart of proletarian internationalism. Turning your guns on your own rulers instead of killing in their interests; not picking sides in inter-imperialist wars; etc.

Doesn't surprise me that this surprises you however. Like I said, hurry up and join the ISO when the new issue of Socialist Wanker comes out. Then you can join them in a "We're All Hezbollah" chant at the next pro-Islamist rally they throw.


It just doesn't occur to you that there are degrees of freedom in class societiesIt doesn't occur to you that the role of communist militants is not to compare and contrast the merits of class societies, but to attack them all from the position of the international proletariat: a class that has no country to defend, "democratic" (or "less oppressive," etc.) or otherwise. We're not picking teams or advising the bourgeoisie on how to rule. We're for the abolition of class rule, classes, nations, wars, etc. All of them. We're out to turn society upside down and shake out all the bullshit!


the product of a bizarre ruling family that insists on having itself worshiped as some kind of quasi-deity.Not limited to DPRK. Happens in some loyal U.S. allies and is rarely is ever mentioned in the bourgeois media for exactly that reason.

From wikipedia:

"King of Thailand, Bhumibol Adulyadej, also had his portraits all over the country. Before a movie is played in the theater, people are required to pay respect by standing during a song praising the king. Those who do not stand have been charged."

"...criticism of the King is banned by the Constitution, although most lèse majesté cases have been directed at foreigners, or at Thai opponents of political, social and commercial leaders."

[Lucretia]

Yes, especially when the bourgeois media exactly "criticizes one without criticizing the other.".

This is just a reworked version of the dismal Marcyist line claiming that the enemy of my enemy must be my friend. But at least for them it made sense, since defending North Korea made good socialist-strategic sense (they believed that the country was not an exploitative class society, and therefore believed it was qualitatively better than the West). In your case, you're simply defending a class society by trying to equate its far worse human rights abuses with what its military adversaries are doing.

The fact that the "bourgeois media" reports something does not automatically make it false, or automatically mean that there is no value to it. And there's certainly no reason to try to balance perceptions of the human rights abuses in two countries, when those records evince a massive disparity in human rights abuses.

[Lucretia]

Uhhh... yeah. Opposition to nations and their rulers is at the heart of proletarian internationalism. Turning your guns on your own rulers instead of killing in their interests; not picking sides in inter-imperialist wars; etc.

Which brings us to the heart of the issue. Acknowledging that the human rights record the DPRK is worse than practically every state on Earth is not the same as calling for its military ouster by other class societies.

You are simply making this up, then on top of it attributing it to - what? - my adherence to the theory of state capitalism as elaborated by Tony Cliff. It's just plain odd, considering that you also concede that the DPRK is a class society. Again, like your "enemy of my enemy is my friend" mindset, your position here actually presupposes that there is something about the DPRK -- like the fact that it's a socialism in one country -- that should make us ignore the imbalance in its treatment of its citizens in favor of "balancing our criticisms." Yet you're not a Stalinist. It's just bizarre.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Would you want to live there?

I'll leave aside the nonsensical argument behind this oft-used phrase...

Believe it or not, there is a certain appeal to the DPRK, especially among people who live in "third world" countries, under the boot of imperialism, no national healthcare, etc.

There are people from other countries who go there for study, training, etc. And other who extol it.

"I once asked a Peruvian writer and militant who visited the DPRK many times, wrote a laudatory book about it, talked at length with Kim several times and played an active part in the 100 per cent solidarity movement why he did it. He answered: ‘They fought the North Americans; they have done incredible things in the economy; it’s the only Third World country where everyone has good health, good education and good housing.’ So I asked him what he really thought about it, as a poet. His reply: ‘It is the saddest, most miserable country I’ve ever been in in my life. As a poet, it strikes bleakness into my heart.’" - Jon Halliday

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

You would make a great useful idiot for U.S. imperialism. You should show up at the next UN meeting that aims to increase sanctions on the DPRK. You can represent the Third Camp Socialist Caucus.


Which brings us to the heart of the issue. Acknowledging that the human rights record the DPRK is worse than practically every state on Earth is not the same as calling for its military ouster by other class societies.Everyone knows the DPRK is repressive, that it has a huge military apparatus, that its rulers live better than the workers, etc. These are not secrets to anyone. You don't need to spend time spreading this information. The bourgeois media does a much better job at it than you could ever hope (though I'm sure you try).

"Human rights" is a bourgeois concept, it's totally relative and meaningless.

In Cuba everyone has a right to a place to live and something to eat, yet it's usually criticized as a huge violator of human rights. No so much for neighboring Dominican Republic where there is no right to housing or food. There you are free -- to starve to death in a gutter.

Of course we need to move beyond the narrow horizon of bourgeois rights.

Again, the role of communist militants is not to compare and contrast the merits of class societies, but to attack them all from the position of the international proletariat -- to abolish class and class society the whole world over.


You are simply making this up, then on top of it attributing it to - what? - my adherence to the theory of state capitalism as elaborated by Tony Cliff. It's especially relevant since Cliff broke with the "Trotskyists" when -- under the anti-communist pressures of the Cold War -- he refused to defend North Korea against the US/UK/UN in the Korean War.


Again, like your "enemy of my enemy is my friend" mindset,Don't have that. Another strawman. I've specifically argued against it here, whether it comes to the Marcyite Global Class War crap or the Cliffite love affair with the Afghan Mullahs.


your position here actually presupposes that there is something about the DPRK -- like the fact that it's a socialism in one country -- that should make us ignore the imbalance in its treatment of its citizens in favor of "balancing our criticisms."Another straw man. Never said anything about ignoring anything. Not once.

All I did in this thread was attempt to explain a few things. The whys and what-fors.

That's what materialist analysis entails.

I'm not interested in singling out particular countries for special criticism (especially when they're square in the cross hairs of U.S. imperialism for fucks sakes).

I'm against all forms of class society.

So I want to explain not only what exists but why it exists. More importantly I want others who are fighting for the overthrow of class and class society to do so.

Ultimately, the DPRK is as much a creation of world capitalism as anything else. Every act of the Kim Jong-il clique finds its match in the bourgeois dictatorships in Seoul, Washington, Tokyo, etc. They'll pit us against each other and then send us to blow each others brains out in some muddy field to defend their interests. Well, our interests are to revolutionize society and abolish their rule before they have the chance.

[Lucretia]

You would make a great useful idiot for U.S. imperialism. You should show up at the next UN meeting that aims to increase sanctions on the DPRK. You can represent the Third Camp Socialist Caucus.

This is just a particularly juvenile restatement of your insistence that we either criticize North Korea or South Korea the same amount, or we are by default supporting the military conquest of North Korea.

It's a patently absurd argument, so it's no wonder you have to dress it up with such colorful fantasy.


Everyone knows the DPRK is repressive, that it has a huge military apparatus, that its rulers live better than the workers, etc. These are not secrets to anyone. You don't need to spend time spreading this information. The bourgeois media does a much better job at it than you could ever hope (though I'm sure you try).Everyone also thinks that the DPRK is socialist. Remember what the initial post in this thread was about -- it was a question about whether the DPRK, a country that you admit is under the thumb of a brutal regime, is socialist! THAT is why we are talking about the DPRK here, and that is also why socialists probably criticize it more than any other despotic government like Saudi Arabia. It is such conventional wisdom that North Korea is "communist" that even revolutionary socialists are pondering whether they should be defending the Kim regime. I doubt any of us here spends countless hours ranting about the Kim dynasty instead of agitating against far more serious obstacles to international socialism, which is what you seem to think we do. How delusional.


"Human rights" is a bourgeois concept, it's totally relative and meaningless.This is just more reductionist and sloppy reasoning that shows a decided lack of familiarity with dialectics. A lot of things originated in bourgeois society, including "political rights" of the kind Marx wrote about in his criticism of Hegel. The goal isn't to do away with modern rights and modern technology, but to extend the progress that bourgeois society initially represented over feudalism to a higher degree. The goal is to transcend bourgeois society, not bulldoze it down to nothing, leaving none of its developments or innovations in the aftermath.


In Cuba everyone has a right to a place to live and something to eat, yet it's usually criticized as a huge violator of human rights. No so much for neighboring Dominican Republic where there is no right to housing or food. There you are free -- to starve to death in a gutter.You seem to think I have made a philosophical pronouncement that all arguments that reference the concept of human rights are air tight. Of course the notion of "human rights" can be exploited by unscrupulous debaters, just like the concept of imperialism can. :rolleyes: Arguments need to be judged on the basis of their merit, not based on whether they assert a fact that the bourgeois media has also reported, not based on whether the person making the argument adheres to a theory of state capitalism, and not based on whether the argument makes a reference to "human rights."


Of course we need to move beyond the narrow horizon of bourgeois rights.Right, and you think doing that is tantamount to rejecting the concept of "human rights" rather than making them truly human entitlements?


Again, the role of communist militants is not to compare and contrast the merits of class societies, but to attack them all from the position of the international proletariat -- to abolish class and class society the whole world over.More sloppy thinking. These two positions are not mutually exclusive. It is perfectly possible to acknowledge that one ruling regime is worse than another, without magically casting your lot with the less abusive ruling regimes and calling for those less abusive regimes to militarily conquer the more abusive one.

What you are doing by trying to balance all criticisms of the North Korean regime with criticisms of other regimes is to air brush away the worst excesses of North Korean regime. It really is a form of backdoor public relations, and it's quite sickening that you're comparing this to a defense of any proletariat much less the North Korean one.


It's especially relevant since Cliff broke with the "Trotskyists" when -- under the anti-communist pressures of the Cold War -- he refused to defend North Korea against the US/UK/UN in the Korean War.You mean he didn't take sides between ruling classes? But wait, didn't you earlier say that my criticizing North Korea for its human rights abuses was bad because it was "picking sides in inter-imperialist wars; etc." Now you're criticizing Cliff for not picking sides in inter-imperialist wars. I will repeat once more, NHIA, you're a very confusing person.

[Ocean Seal]

North Korea is a totalitarian kleptocracy using socialism as a very weak front. The only people who benefit are the Kims.
So only a 1/3 of the country is benefited by the administration:lol:?

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

You mean he didn't take sides between ruling classes? But wait, didn't you earlier say that my criticizing North Korea for its human rights abuses was bad because it was "picking sides in inter-imperialist wars; etc." Now you're criticizing Cliff for not picking sides in inter-imperialist wars. I will repeat once more, NHIA, you're a very confusing person.

When trying to discuss something with a Cliffite it's often difficult to discern whether they are employing intentional idiocy or are actually just genuine idiots.

1. I am not a "Trotskyist" and never have been. The point was that Cliff split with the Trots over the Korean War.

2. The UK participated in the imperialist invasion of Korea. Workers in the UK should have fought against that; self-described communists should have been at the forefront, opposing "their own" imperialists.

3. The Cliffites have no trouble "taking sides" when the side is openly reactionary. The Cliffites cheered the US/Saudi/Pakistan-backed women-hating mujahideen in Afghanistan that Ronald Reagan hailed as "freedom fighters." The Cliffites cheered Solidarity in Poland -- the CIA/Vatican-backed "union" that Ronald Reagan hailed while simultaneously smashing PATCO in the states. The Cliffites cheered the capitalist-restorationist and Bush-buddy Yeltsin. Today they ally with any Islamists they can gather in a popular front. Neither Washington nor Moscow .... but Tehran!

[Zostrianos]

Poimandres, source please. You can't expect me to read two vey good posts talking about wild lies in capitalist media and then accept your claims at face value.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songun

The North Korean government grants the Korean People's Army the highest economic and resource-allocation priority, and positions it as the model for society to emulate.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songun#cite_note-1) Songun is also the ideological concept behind a shift in policies since 1994 which emphasize the military over all other aspects of state and society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea#Personality_cult

While visiting North Korea in 1979, journalist Bradley Martin noted that nearly all music, art, and sculpture that he observed glorified "Great Leader" Kim Il-sung, whose personality cult was then being extended to his son, "Dear Leader" Kim Jong-il.[197] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea#cite_note-LovingCare-196) There is even widespread belief that Kim Il-sung "created the world", and Kim Jong-il can "control the weather".[197] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea#cite_note-LovingCare-196)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea

In October 2007, a South Pyongan province factory chief convicted of making international phone calls from 13 phones he installed in his factory basement was executed by firing squad in front of a crowd of 150,000 people in a stadium. In another instance, 15 people were publicly executed for crossing into China.[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea#cite_note-28)

Only the most loyal, politically reliable, and healthiest citizens are allowed to live in Pyongyang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyongyang). Those who are suspected of sedition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition), or who have family members suspected of it, are expelled from the city; similar conditions affect those who are physically or mentally disabled in some way (the only exception being People's Army Korean War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War) veterans with injuries relating to the conflict). This can be a significant method of coercion since food and housing are said to be much better in the capital city than elsewhere in the country.

[safeduck]

I honestly think I would rather die than live in North Korea. They use so much propaganda it's untrue. I heard from someone I met who lived in North Korea that they wire a radio into your house that you cannot turn off and you also cant adjust the volume. They then transmit 40 mins of non stop propaganda. They also show 5 hours of TV with non stop propaganda also. Nearly all forms of education revolve around how great Kim Jong Il and his father, Kim Sung Il are and how great their military is. One of the stories I hear kids are taught in North Korea is that when Kim Jong Il was born, a rainbow appeared and the sun came out. Like everyone has to join the army. I also heard that if you speak out against the system, you and your whole family will be put into concentration camps. This country is an embarrassment to Socialism and Communism in my opinion. It is a dictatorship and nothing more.

[Искра]

I honestly think I would rather die than live in North Korea. They use so much propaganda it's untrue. I heard from someone I met who lived in North Korea that they wire a radio into your house that you cannot turn off and you also cant adjust the volume. They then transmit 40 mins of non stop propaganda. They also show 5 hours of TV with non stop propaganda also. Nearly all forms of education revolve around how great Kim Jong Il and his father, Kim Sung Il are and how great their military is. One of the stories I hear kids are taught in North Korea is that when Kim Jong Il was born, a rainbow appeared and the sun came out. Like everyone has to join the army. I also heard that if you speak out against the system, you and your whole family will be put into concentration camps. This country is an embarrassment to Socialism and Communism in my opinion. It is a dictatorship and nothing more.
You watch too much BBC.

[safeduck]

You watch too much BBC.

Can you really just dismiss all of this as a lie without evidence? No civilised country forces men and women into the army against their will in my eyes. Show me some evidence and maybe then you will sway my views.

[Искра]

Can you really just dismiss all of this as a lie without evidence? No civilised country forces men and women into the army against their will in my eyes.
What about Israel?


Show me some evidence and maybe then you will sway my views.Read NHIA's posts. They are really good.

[tir1944]

Lol almost every country had universal conscription just some 10-20 years ago.
Switzerland has it to this date and the citizens are even obliged to go to shooting practices and such every now and then.

[ColonelCossack]

Lol almost every country had universal conscription just some 10-20 years ago.
Switzerland has it to this date and the citizens are even obliged to go to shooting practices and such every now and then.

It's still the law in the UK for men over 13 to practise with bows and arrows too... or so i've heard...

But I suppose no-one does that, and it's wholly irrelevant to this thread. Sorry everyone. :p

[Geiseric]

It's still the law in the UK for men over 13 to practise with bows and arrows too... or so i've heard...

But I suppose no-one does that, and it's wholly irrelevant to this thread. Sorry everyone. :p

I will willingly buy a bow and arrow TO DEFEND MY COUNTRY FROM THE DAMN SAXONS

[Ocean Seal]

Can you really just dismiss all of this as a lie without evidence? No civilised country forces men and women into the army against their will in my eyes. Show me some evidence and maybe then you will sway my views.
Actually evidence is on you being that you made the claim.

[israeli-hellscape]

i know a lot about the DPRK from years of research. if anyone has a DPRK-related question, and wants an objective answer, just ask.

[Искра]

Ask.

[Lucretia]

1. I am not a "Trotskyist" and never have been. The point was that Cliff split with the Trots over the Korean War.

I am aware that Cliff split from Orthodox Trotskyists over the Korean War, and I never at any point either said or implied that you were a Trotskyist. What I have said is that, by acknowledging that the DPRK is a class society, you are not a Stalinist -- even though you continually regurgitate enough of their talking points in defense of the North Korean regime to keep receiving "thanks" from them on this thread. Did it never occur to you that their defense is predicated on the idea that North Korea was a socialist country?


2. The UK participated in the imperialist invasion of Korea. Workers in the UK should have fought against that; self-described communists should have been at the forefront, opposing "their own" imperialists.You once again fall into this binary thinking whereby you are equating opposition to British involvement in the war, a position which Cliff most certainly did hold, with advocacy of the British defeat (and Soviet-Chinese-NK victory) in the war, which Cliff most certainly did not hold. They are two entirely different things, and Cliff in fact did oppose both superpowers' imperialist activities. That is the whole point of the article (http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1950/11/powers.html) he wrote about the conflict, which you should re-read. He identified the Korean war as an inter-imperialist conflict between ruling classes, the kind of conflict which you said true advocates of international proletarian solidarity should refuse to take sides in.

Now you seem to be suggesting that because Cliff is a British citizen, he should have taken a side of one of the imperialist powers in the conflict -- in direct contradiction to your earlier declaration -- but on the side of the North Koreans. What if Tony Cliff had been a Mexican? Would his position of "neutrality" been suitable then? (I should note, though, that use of the term "neutrality" to describe Cliff's position is misleading, since it assumes that the ruling regimes constitute all the parties to the conflict, thereby ignoring the proletariat entirely or positing that their interests were indistinguishable from the interests of one of the imperialist powers.)


3. The Cliffites have no trouble "taking sides" when the side is openly reactionary. The Cliffites cheered the US/Saudi/Pakistan-backed women-hating mujahideen in Afghanistan that Ronald Reagan hailed as "freedom fighters." The Cliffites cheered Solidarity in Poland -- the CIA/Vatican-backed "union" that Ronald Reagan hailed while simultaneously smashing PATCO in the states. The Cliffites cheered the capitalist-restorationist and Bush-buddy Yeltsin. Today they ally with any Islamists they can gather in a popular front. Neither Washington nor Moscow .... but Tehran!It appears you are having a hard time focusing, NHIA. Please try to stay on topic. What we're debating here isn't "Was Tony Cliff correct about everything he ever said?" (the answer to which question is obviously no). We're talking about Korea.

And it's obvious that in your efforts to equate North Korea's vile mistreatment of its population with every other government's misbehavior, you are trying to sand off the roughest edges of the regime. You are trying to impose a false sense of balance where there is no balance.

Moreover, in situations where somebody is taking a balanced approach, and equating like with like (as Tony Cliff did when comparing the Chinese and Soviet imperialism in Korea with the US imperialism there), you fault him for not taking a side. It's very telling that these demands you make for balance always tend to favor the North Korean regime. I wonder why. :confused:

[Zostrianos]

What about Israel?


For all its faults, Israel won't execute you if you try to leave the country, or if you criticize the government. THe DPRK on the other hand will.
Now granted, the DPRK's constitution guarantees freedom of speech and individual rights, but this is just for show. Much like it also calls itself the "Democratic People's Republic" :rolleyes:
And for everyone who thinks that all the bad stuff the DPRK is accused of (and for which there is plenty of evidence, q.v. the execution video I posted earlier) is just "capitalist propaganda", I propose an experiment. Go to North Korea, and publicly criticize the Kims; better yet, hand out anti-government leaflets. Then you'll see how much freedom there really is..:cool:

[Tovarisch]

Socialism is not about repression, at least not the way Marx intended it to be. Kim slapped together a fascist dictatorship and branded it with a "Socialist" sign. That does not make it Socialist in any shape

[Ocean Seal]

For all its faults, Israel won't execute you if you try to leave the country, or if you criticize the government. THe DPRK on the other hand will.
Now granted, the DPRK's constitution guarantees freedom of speech and individual rights, but this is just for show. Much like it also calls itself the "Democratic People's Republic" :rolleyes:
And for everyone who thinks that all the bad stuff the DPRK is accused of (and for which there is plenty of evidence, q.v. the execution video I posted earlier) is just "capitalist propaganda", I propose an experiment. Go to North Korea, and publicly criticize the Kims; better yet, hand out anti-government leaflets. Then you'll see how much freedom there really is..:cool:
No one here thinks that the DPRK is free. I propose an experiment get a West Bank passport and try crossing into Gaza.The point that was made was that Israel conscripts you into the military.

[Mike X]

The Democratic Peoples Republic of North Korea is a communist country that has not reached the stage of socialism yet. Nor will it, in my opinion, until it progresses beyond the 'cult of personality' and truly becomes a 'democratic republic'.

Still, as a 'Friend of North Korea' I support their struggle to build a socialist nation without reservation, and wish them all the best.

[Prinskaj]

The Democratic Peoples Republic of North Korea is a communist country that has not reached the stage of socialism yet. Nor will it, in my opinion, until it progresses beyond the 'cult of personality' and truly becomes a 'democratic republic'.

What the hell..
"A communist country that has not reached the stage of socialism yet."
How is that even possible? Socialism is the transitional stage, communism is the end goal.. And North Korea is neither of these..
How can you even make such a statement?

[Geiseric]

There isn't a point when a country reaches socialism, either the workers democratically run production or they won't and will never own it through any transitional stage.

[Zostrianos]

What the hell..
"A communist country that has not reached the stage of socialism yet."
How is that even possible? Socialism is the transitional stage, communism is the end goal.. And North Korea is neither of these..
How can you even make such a statement?

Exactly. The fact that it calls itself communist or socialist doesn't mean anything. Nazi Germany considered itself "socialist" too.

A brutal dictatorship that uses its monetary resources to build grandiose monuments and entire cities just for show, while a large percentage of its people starve to death - when it could be using the money to feed them; a regime that brutalizes, oppresses and executes its citizens if they don't show full obedience to the government, a regime that will send entire families into concentration camps if a single member of the family does anything that could be considered subversive; a regime that considers itself god-like and infallible, and worthy of religious worship...to call such a system communist or socialist is profoundly insulting.

[Revy]

Where in any of the Juche literature does it say this?

The Soviet Union was racist against many peoples, including the Koreans in eastern Russia, who were relocated to Central Asia. Many people died during this forced migration. So Kim Il-sung was not only a Soviet puppet installed by the USSR, he was the puppet of a regime that was racist against Koreans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_Koreans_in_the_Soviet_Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_Koreans_in_the_Soviet_Union)

[RedTrackWorker]

I think NHIA has been slandering and distorting Lucretia's points in this thread but do think he has a point on Cliff's position on North Korea (though as Lucretia hasn't defended that position on the thread that I saw to call L a "state department socialist" without any backing is just slander and superheated rhetoric that won't help anyone).

I'm not sure what NHIA's point has been in these posts, but it seems NHIA's knowledge of the history and politics would've been better served in debating a Marxist Historian's contention that it's a kind of workers' state than attacking Lucretia over .... I don't know what.

On bootlicking:

I would challenge you to find examples of "bootlicking of the DPRK's rulers" by the RCG, WWP, and PSL, but that'd be just as off topic as your post.

See PR 56 (http://lrp-cofi.org/PR/Back_Issues.html#pr56) "Heaven, Nature and WWP Hail Kim Jong II", (article not online) which quotes the WWP's Workers World Oct 23, 1998, which is quoted from an event held by North Korea at the UN, the speaker being Deirdre Griswold, WWP National Committee member and editor of Workers World newspaper:

We are here to celebrate an event of great significance for Korea and the world - the election of Kim Jong II as general secretary of the Workers Party of Korea. We know that in the DPRK, there is much rejoicing among the
people. In the long struggle to transform society and end the oppressions that have characterized this period in human history, the issue of leadership is all-important.
We have never really met Kim Jong II, other than to merely shake his hand, but we know this about him: that he is willing to assume responsibility as the political leader in the DPRK at a time of great difficulties. That alone says much about his strength of character.
So we know, therefore, how much thought and care the Workers Party puts into choosing the individuals who will represent the Party and the Korean people. We know that that same kind of thought and care went into the election of Comrade Kim Jong II as general secretary, the supreme leader of the Party.
So we join you in this moment of celebration with great hope for the new period opening up, and much affection for the person you have chosen to represent and lead you.
Long live socialist Korea! Long live the Workers Party!
Long live Comrade Kim Jong II!

If you do not think that is bootlicking, please refer me to a text of a socialist party on a political leader that is.

[Bandito]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/379860_287072167998841_100000881804165_803081_1326 826078_n.jpg

[tachosomoza]

If I lived in North Korea, I'd fucking kill myself. It just looks so damn...depressing.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

South Korea is #2 in the world in suicide rates (behind Lithuania). So maybe you should go there instead.

[robbo203]

Exactly. The fact that it calls itself communist or socialist doesn't mean anything. Nazi Germany considered itself "socialist" too.

A brutal dictatorship that uses its monetary resources to build grandiose monuments and entire cities just for show, while a large percentage of its people starve to death - when it could be using the money to feed them; a regime that brutalizes, oppresses and executes its citizens if they don't show full obedience to the government, a regime that will send entire families into concentration camps if a single member of the family does anything that could be considered subversive; a regime that considers itself god-like and infallible, and worthy of religious worship...to call such a system communist or socialist is profoundly insulting.


Indeed, The fact that it even makes use of money is proof positive of the absence of socialism/communism if you know anything about socialism/communism. This is a nasty little state capitalist dictatorship , pure and simple , that touts for business from the foreign imperialists, like China (thus making a mockery of its whole ridiculous "anti imperialist" posture) to invest capital in the regime while pointing out the advantages it has to offer to any profit hungry venture capitalist such as a cheap and compliant labour force which will never step out of line as far as the regime is concerned.

I am just constantly amazed that anyone claiming to be a "socialist" can be so utterly daft as to consider that this disgusting little capitalist dictorship is somehow worthy of our support