Ahmadinejad's holocaust denial

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

So this is a topic which this douchebag keeps bringing up, over and over again. It makes for great propaganda for militant Zionists and it makes moderate Jews scared and more sympathetic to the reactionary right. Holocaust denial, alongside similar positions such as Armenian genocide denial and slavery/manifest destiny-apologism, are among the most reactionary, degenerate political positions a person could take, and here we have a head of state making the same claim repeatedly and even having *conferences* on it.

Why, despite this bullshit, do some Leftists still seem to support his presidency? It shows that the description of him as a "fascist" is more accurate than many here I imagine would want to admit, especially when he invites David Duke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke) for a meet and greet. Because, you know, nothing is more revolutionary than meeting with someone from the fucking KKK to deny the holocaust.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YicLTJBElnI/SxM6bwwidhI/AAAAAAAABFI/Lp2LgilZFFA/s1600/david_Duke.jpg


This, of course, to say nothing of Iran's policies to religious minorities, ethnic minorities and homosexuals.

[Game Girl]

Argh...

I never did get the whole Holocaust Denial thing. WTF? Theres mountains of evidence that prove it happened!

Denying the Holocaust is like denying the Nanking Massacre! It's pointless, stupid and disrespectful to the people who lost their lives!

[Hivemind]

I don't blame certain people who deny the holocaust. I've seen plenty of documentaries and shit like that which, although not necessarily factual, can easily sway a lot of people to believe that it didn't happen or that it isn't as bad as they say it happened. People are easily swayed in either direction, regardless of the existence or validity of evidence.

I personally don't pick a side on the holocaust thing.

[tir1944]

It's criminal not to fight Holocaust Denial,as it's criminal to abuse the Holocaust for everyday political purposes (like Zionists do) and it's also criminal to conveniently "forget" (as it's often done in the public discourse) that not only 6 million Jews,but 15+ million other people too got murdered by the Nazis and their helpers.

[Art Vandelay]

I don't blame certain people who deny the holocaust. I've seen plenty of documentaries and shit like that which, although not necessarily factual, can easily sway a lot of people to believe that it didn't happen or that it isn't as bad as they say it happened. People are easily swayed in either direction, regardless of the existence or validity of evidence.

I personally don't pick a side on the holocaust thing.

I do not understand how you could not take a side on this thing? Are you not anti-fascist?

[Hivemind]

I do not understand how you could not take a side on this thing? Are you not anti-fascist?

Of course I am, but from everything that I've seen from both sides of the holocaust argument, I have concluded that I don't trust either positions and I'd rather exclude myself from entering any holocaust debate, since I don't want to be on either side.

[Madvillainy]

hes jus scoring political points from shit like this. playin to his fans or watever. he might actually believe it but he might not. its called political expediency or sumthing.

[Zealot]

when did this happen? Links?

[Hivemind]

when did this happen? Links?

Pretty sure that he's been denying the holocaust for a looooong time.

[Apoi_Viitor]

Of course I am, but from everything that I've seen from both sides of the holocaust argument, I have concluded that I don't trust either positions and I'd rather exclude myself from entering any holocaust debate, since I don't want to be on either side.

wat

[SocialistTommy]

Ignorance, Ignorance, Ignorance...you must also remember, this is the pillock who wants Israel to be wiped off the face of the earth, no matter what our views on the whole 'Palestine-Israel' topic are, that is a pretty fucked up thing to say.

[Sasha]

I don't blame certain people who deny the holocaust. I've seen plenty of documentaries and shit like that which, although not necessarily factual, can easily sway a lot of people to believe that it didn't happen or that it isn't as bad as they say it happened. People are easily swayed in either direction, regardless of the existence or validity of evidence.

I personally don't pick a side on the holocaust thing.


Of course I am, but from everything that I've seen from both sides of the holocaust argument, I have concluded that I don't trust either positions and I'd rather exclude myself from entering any holocaust debate, since I don't want to be on either side.


WTF? this is not a debate, there are no sides except truth and fiction, my family got murdered by the nazi's, they where gassed, and so where millions of others. Refusing to take a position against those who refuse to acknowledge the genocide are complicit in the continuing existence of this insult to both the victims and human intellect.

[Zealot]

Pretty sure that he's been denying the holocaust for a looooong time.

I meant about meeting David Duke.


Ignorance, Ignorance, Ignorance...you must also remember, this is the pillock who wants Israel to be wiped off the face of the earth, no matter what our views on the whole 'Palestine-Israel' topic are, that is a pretty fucked up thing to say.

Okay I'm pretty sure this is bs, the translation was something more like he wanted the Israeli regime to dissapear from the pages of time.

[Art Vandelay]

Of course I am, but from everything that I've seen from both sides of the holocaust argument, I have concluded that I don't trust either positions and I'd rather exclude myself from entering any holocaust debate, since I don't want to be on either side.

That is a pretty reactionary viewpoint. Holocaust happened.

[CommieTroll]

Of course I am, but from everything that I've seen from both sides of the holocaust argument, I have concluded that I don't trust either positions and I'd rather exclude myself from entering any holocaust debate, since I don't want to be on either side.

It's that kind of cowardice that lets those fascists run free. Come to your senses as a leftist, you'd even consider that it didn't happen? Don't sit on the fence

[Hivemind]

Skepticism is reactionary, eh?

Neither the "holocaust happened" nor the "holocaust didn't happen" side has convinced me, and both sides are riddled with many holes in their arguments. Someone, somewhere has fucked something up, and it's been like a long game of telephone, and everybody's story is now completely different on either side, and now I can't believe either side with 100% certainty. Of course I'm more inclined to believe that it happened, but I cannot be certain about the details of it, so I remain agnostic about the whole situation because without certainty or at least a reasonable doubt, I have nothing to base my beliefs on. This doesn't sound irrational, does it?

[CommieTroll]

Skepticism is reactionary, eh?

Neither the "holocaust happened" nor the "holocaust didn't happen" side has convinced me, and both sides are riddled with many holes in their arguments. Someone, somewhere has fucked something up, and it's been like a long game of telephone, and everybody's story is now completely different on either side, and now I can't believe either side with 100% certainty. Of course I'm more inclined to believe that it happened, but I cannot be certain about the details of it, so I remain agnostic about the whole situation because without certainty or at least a reasonable doubt, I have nothing to base my beliefs on. This doesn't sound irrational, does it?

Your agnosticism is pointless when it comes to this matter, I know you are inclined towards the view that it did happen but why have even the smallest doubt that it didn't happen? That sounds pretty reactionary if you ask me.

[Zealot]

Nothing wrong with critiquing history, but Hive, you should probably start a new thread on this or provide some links that show an alternative view because it's quite hard to believe that it didn't happen.

Fact of the matter is, we have around 7 holocausts every year and the people go unremembered. Even in the holocaust at Germany there were another 6 million non-jews (communists, gay etc.) who were killed alongside the jews. And around 60million during the whole war. I see no reason why people like to focus so much on the jews.

[Smyg]

Skepticism is reactionary, eh?

Neither the "holocaust happened" nor the "holocaust didn't happen" side has convinced me, and both sides are riddled with many holes in their arguments. Someone, somewhere has fucked something up, and it's been like a long game of telephone, and everybody's story is now completely different on either side, and now I can't believe either side with 100% certainty. Of course I'm more inclined to believe that it happened, but I cannot be certain about the details of it, so I remain agnostic about the whole situation because without certainty or at least a reasonable doubt, I have nothing to base my beliefs on. This doesn't sound irrational, does it?

If you deny something which is so extensively documented and recorded, how can you believe in anything?

[Sasha]

It's criminal not to fight Holocaust Denial,as it's criminal to abuse the Holocaust for everyday political purposes (like Zionists do) and it's also criminal to conveniently "forget" (as it's often done in the public discourse) that not only 6 million Jews,but 15+ million other people too got murdered by the Nazis and their helpers.

^ this is a valid position to have on the holocaust


Skepticism is reactionary, eh?

Neither the "holocaust happened" nor the "holocaust didn't happen" side has convinced me, and both sides are riddled with many holes in their arguments. Someone, somewhere has fucked something up, and it's been like a long game of telephone, and everybody's story is now completely different on either side, and now I can't believe either side with 100% certainty. Of course I'm more inclined to believe that it happened, but I cannot be certain about the details of it, so I remain agnostic about the whole situation because without certainty or at least a reasonable doubt, I have nothing to base my beliefs on. This doesn't sound irrational, does it?

^ this is the reason we have this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/holocaust-proof-t128842/index.html) stickied in the anti-fascist section

your position is as rational as doubting evolution or that the earth revolves around the sun, no not even "agnostics" (aptly chosen term that) should doubt that

[Hivemind]

Your agnosticism is pointless when it comes to this matter, I know you are inclined towards the view that it did happen but why have even the smallest doubt that it didn't happen? That sounds pretty reactionary if you ask me.

When stories don't match up and are wildly different, I raise an eyebrow. Both sides have conflicts within their own positions and I can't take any of them seriously.


Nothing wrong with critiquing history, but Hive, you should probably start a new thread on this or provide some links that show an alternative view because it's quite hard to believe that it didn't happen.

No, because I don't care enough about this topic to debate it. As I'm writing this right now I'm already cursing myself for not realizing that this was going to happen. I could have avoided this pointless shit.


Even in the holocaust at Germany there were another 6 million non-jews (communists, gay etc.) who were killed alongside the jews. And around 60million during the whole war. I see no reason why people like to focus so much on the jews.

Yes, I know that there were others targeted, and that focusing just on one group is silly.


If you deny something which is so extensively documented and recorded, how can you believe in anything?

Maybe I don't.


this is the reason we have this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/holocaust-proof-t128842/index.html) stickied in the anti-fascist section

Seen it a long time ago. Didn't help.


your position is as rational as doubting evolution or that the earth revolves around the sun, no not even "agnostics" (aptly chosen term that) should doubt that

Oh well.

I'd write more but I don't really care.

[thälmann]

wtf??
of course it did happen...the jews were transported by day to the camps and everyone saw that. not to mention the surviving jews, communists etc who lost their comerades, family etc.

there are not two sides in this historical discussion, only a lot of proves on one side and fascist antisemites on the other side.

but, really, do we have to discuss this on a leftist forum???:confused:

[Belleraphone]

Hasn't this guy just said that we need to be more open about holocaust literature and that if anyone ever challenges it they are immediately shout off the stage before they can speak? I don't think he's outright denied it, I'm probably wrong though.

Obviously the holocaust happened but if we were less politically correct these holocaust nutjobs wouldn't see an international conspiracy to silence them, just let them talk, rebutt them, and stop throwing them in jail.

As for David Duke meeting with him, I think this guy just wanted to hold a meeting of prominent holocaust skeptics/deniers, and David Duke would obviously be on that list. He probably invited him out of ignorance just like when Bush invited Colbert.

[Os Cangaceiros]

To get back to the original post:

I think that the people who "critical support" the state of Iran "against imperialism" recognize that the leader of Iran is, in fact, a total asshole. Denying that is about as futile as denying the Holocaust. But I think they argue that he's a lesser asshole when compared to imperialism.

[Le Rouge]

Holocaust denial? Kinda like people who deny "communists" death toll. Disgusting...

[Yuppie Grinder]

I don't blame certain people who deny the holocaust. I've seen plenty of documentaries and shit like that which, although not necessarily factual, can easily sway a lot of people to believe that it didn't happen or that it isn't as bad as they say it happened. People are easily swayed in either direction, regardless of the existence or validity of evidence.

I personally don't pick a side on the holocaust thing.
Having met numerous holocaust survivors I can tell you the holocaust happened and it was fucking awful. There's mountains of evidence. The only people who deny it are delusional white nationalists.

[Ocean Seal]

Skepticism is reactionary, eh?

In this case it's worse than reactionary, its fucking delusional.


Neither the "holocaust happened" nor the "holocaust didn't happen" side has convinced me,

Then there is something wrong with you. It happened 60 years ago. There are still Holocaust survivors.


and both sides are riddled with many holes in their arguments.

Like what?


Someone, somewhere has fucked something up, and it's been like a long game of telephone, and everybody's story is now completely different on either side, and now I can't believe either side with 100% certainty.

Ok that's absurd.


Of course I'm more inclined to believe that it happened, but I cannot be certain about the details of it,

Not good enough


so I remain agnostic about the whole situation because without certainty or at least a reasonable doubt, I have nothing to base my beliefs on.

There is no "reasonable doubt".


This doesn't sound irrational, does it?
Yes it does. What else are you agnostic about? The historic exploitation of the proletariat? How about Suharto's massacres? You weren't in Indonesia to see the East Timorese die. Maybe Suharto was actually a nice guy who didn't kill all of those people. How about blood diamonds? Sounds like a myth, right. I mean I've never been to Africa so I'll remain agnostic about it. Maybe the US didn't actually bomb Libya, maybe Qaddafi isn't a real person. How do I know, I've never met him, I've never been to Libya. Maybe Hitler isn't real either. Maybe Lenin wasn't real, maybe all the history that I've learned is just manufactured. There was no Roman Empire. I'll remain agnostic about all of those things.

[Princess Luna]

^ this is a valid position to have on the holocaust



^ this is the reason we have this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/holocaust-proof-t128842/index.html) stickied in the anti-fascist section

your position is as rational as doubting evolution or that the earth revolves around the sun, no not even "agnostics" (aptly chosen term that) should doubt that
At least denying evolution or heliocentrism doesn't piss on the graves of millions of people

Skepticism is reactionary, eh?

Neither the "holocaust happened" nor the "holocaust didn't happen" side has convinced me, and both sides are riddled with many holes in their arguments. Someone, somewhere has fucked something up, and it's been like a long game of telephone, and everybody's story is now completely different on either side, and now I can't believe either side with 100% certainty. Of course I'm more inclined to believe that it happened, but I cannot be certain about the details of it, so I remain agnostic about the whole situation because without certainty or at least a reasonable doubt, I have nothing to base my beliefs on. This doesn't sound irrational, does it?
The game of telephone operates by one person telling the next person something, and it traveling down a line slowly getting distorted, your analogy would hold some weight.....
if the holocaust happened 650 years ago, but there are people alive today who were there and can remember the holocaust in detail. In other words there are first hands sources confirming the holocaust happened and there is no reason for all those people to lie, unless you believe the crap the people over at *the website that shall not be named * believe

[the Left™]

Argh...

I never did get the whole Holocaust Denial thing. WTF? Theres mountains of evidence that prove it happened!

Denying the Holocaust is like denying the Nanking Massacre! It's pointless, stupid and disrespectful to the people who lost their lives!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

Theres a long tradition in radical anti-semitism of denying discrimination against jews and in a more radical sense the holocaust. Aky denounces the holocaust as jewish propaganda to establish israel

[Misanthrope]

The only "evidence" I have seen of him denying the holocaust are mistranslated excerpts used by the American right to advocate war with Iran. Inviting David Duke though... what the fuck.

Wait, why am I surprised? :rolleyes:

[Misanthrope]

Holocaust denial? Kinda like people who deny "communists" death toll. Disgusting...

No not at all actually. The holocaust was a systematic murder of entire groups of people. While the deaths in say the Soviet Union were a result of the health industry at the time, the fact that it was a WAR ZONE, and just simple material conditions.

Western scholars didn't care whether someone died at the hands of a disease or in a labor camp. They were all brutally murdered at the hands of Stalin, absurdity.

For the record, I'm not a M-L. That doesn't mean Stalin isn't highly demonized in contemporary historical circles.

[Art Vandelay]

No not at all actually. The holocaust was a systematic murder of entire groups of people. While the deaths in say the Soviet Union were a result of the health industry at the time, the fact that it was a WAR ZONE, and just simple material conditions.

Western scholars didn't care whether someone died at the hands of a disease or in a labor camp. They were all brutally murdered at the hands of Stalin, absurdity.

For the record, I'm not a M-L. That doesn't mean Stalin isn't highly demonized in contemporary historical circles.

I would also say, that while I do not agree with all political purges, that a political purge is different than a systematic whiteout of an entire race.

[ComradeOm]

When stories don't match up and are wildly different, I raise an eyebrow. Both sides have conflicts within their own positions and I can't take any of them seriouslyWhat "conflicts" lie within the overwhelming mountain of evidence that point to the intentional and genocidal murder of millions?

Essentially your position boils down to laziness. You've heard that someone questions the Holocaust and you can't be arsed to even think about the absurdity of that claim. In doing so you are implicitly supporting the denialist position while belittling the victims of Nazi genocide. This is tantamount to Holocaust denialism... but denialism borne of apathy and laziness rather than conspiracy theories. I'm not sure which is worse


The only "evidence" I have seen of him denying the holocaust are mistranslated excerpts used by the American right to advocate war with IranFrom al Jazeera (http://www.aljazeera.com/archive/2005/12/200849154418141136.html), a media outlet unlikely to be a puppet of the US rights and with some experience in translation:

"They have fabricated a legend under the name Massacre of the Jews, and they hold it higher than God himself, religion itself and the prophets themselves"

This is one of many examples that can be found online. The issues is greater than just Ahmadinejad however. The 2006 denialist conference in Tehran was sponsored by the state and elements of the Iranian media have also expressed similar sentiments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Holocaust_Cartoon_Competition). There is a real risk that we are seeing an upsurge in denialism and anti-Semitism cloaked by anti-Zionism

[CleverTitle]

When stories don't match up and are wildly different, I raise an eyebrow. Both sides have conflicts within their own positions and I can't take any of them seriously.
There are those that accept the clear and obvious (http://www.holocaustpictures.org/pictures/albums/holocaust-pictures/holocaust-image.jpg) truth and those that deny it. The Holocaust is really not a matter of debate. You're insulting millions. It's pretty disgusting.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

The Holocaust didn't happen? That would be news to its victims. Some of my own family perished. They didn't just magically vanish into thin air.

Agnosticism on this issue is in poor taste.

[Nox]

The Holocaust didn't happen? That would be news to its victims. Some of my own family perished. They didn't just magically vanish into thin air.

Agnosticism on this issue is in poor taste.

Agreed.

Saying you're skeptical about the holocaust is like saying you're skeptical about the world being a sphere.

[thefinalmarch]

Saying you're skeptical about the holocaust is like saying you're skeptical about the world being a sphere.
The Flat Earth Society (http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/)
(http://http://theflatearthsociety.org/)

[hatzel]

Saying you're skeptical about the holocaust is like saying you're skeptical about the world being a sphere.


sphere
n.
1. Mathematics A three-dimensional surface, all points of which are equidistant from a fixed point.


Equatorial radius: 6,378.1 km
Polar radius: 6,356.8 km

The world isn't a sphere :unsure:

[Catmatic Leftist]

Yup, the Earth is an oblate spheroid.

[danyboy27]

Thousand of Eyewitnesses, millions of victims, Thousand of documents, the confession of the perpetrators,tons of materials proofs.

there is no room for interpretation here hivemind, it did happened.

The fucking S.S braged about it at the Nuremberg Trial, Even Heinchman after his capture bragged about the number of people he ordered to kill.

Hell even the number of people kill can be approximately measured beccause its all in the Goddamn S.S documents.