Restrictions on Pro-lifers

[Leftsolidarity]

(this can change out of learning because I didn't know where to put it)

When I first came to Revleft I was against abortion. I never vocalized that because I saw that you could get restricted for this. I have completely reversed my views now after a lot more thinking on the subject and reading discussions on here.


I want to note though that my pro-life stance didn't come through religion because I was atheist. It came because I felt that it was the right thing to do to protect the life of a fetus in most circumstances. It was misguided feelings of wanting to help people.

I don't understand why those who are against abortion are restricted. Not only because I think it is not needed but also because say I was open about my anti-abortion views when I first got here. I would have been restricted. My views have completely changed but how do you know that to unrestrict me?

[The Douche]

They're restricted because it is a reactionary position. Its anti-woman.

If you had been restricted and come to change your position you could've gotten out of OI by demonstrating that you no longer held those opinions, people have been let out of OI in the past, shit, Mari3l was restricted and now shes a mod.


Also, you should be retroactively restricted.

Just kidding.

[xub3rn00dlex]

I think LS's position ( which was anti-woman ) while reactionary when he first came here, can be applied to other posters/lurkers. I almost passed up joining because i was inexperienced and did worry about getting restricted/banned and therefor losing access to this forum. I'd say 90% of my posts are utter shit, and i still refrain from posting and getting into more intellectual debates because i do fear my positions in them might get me restricted, not so much because of my views but because i don't really know what can and can't get you restricted.

[Azraella]

To be honest... abortion is a sticky issue for me. I have my own hang ups on abortion based on how I feel about it. It is not fair to anyone and abortion is a very difficult issue for me to say... "yeah I'm pro-choice!" when it seems very wrong on a spiritual and emotional level. I will never argue against a woman's right to choose to abort. It simply isn't my choice no matter how wrong I think it is.

[The Douche]

Personally, I am anti-abortion, but I am not in any way anti-choice.

If my partner called me right now and told me she was pregnant (oh god, phone, please don't ring) and she wanted to have an abortion I would not want her to. We would obviously have to have a long conversation where we could each take the other's opinion to heart.

But in the end, if despite my pleadings to carry it, she decided to have an abortion, that would be her choice to make, not mine, because its not my body, and I don't have to carry it. And I would have to be mature enough to understand, that whatever I might want, it is not up to me, and I wouldn't (shouldn't) be able to hold it against her.

[Nox]

They should be banned, just like other sexists/racists/homophobics

[Leftsolidarity]

They should be banned, just like other sexists/racists/homophobics

Why should I have been banned? Have I not been a positive poster here and contributed? Have I not reversed the views that were wrong? Did I not try to learn?

No, there is no need to ban pro-lifers and we actually have a number of other ones on this board who are very good posters.

[Nox]

Why should I have been banned? Have I not been a positive poster here and contributed? Have I not reversed the views that were wrong? Did I not try to learn?

No, there is no need to ban pro-lifers and we actually have a number of other ones on this board who are very good posters.

You shouldn't have been banned, because you kept it a secret until you developed your understanding of Communism and realised pro-life is a load of bollocks.

I'm talking about absolute idiots who come here, call themselves communist and then spurt out a load of bullshit anti-communist views. A good example is people being pro-Zionism (there's been a recent case with some absolute idiot called Scarlet Sojourner or something like that).

[Manic Impressive]

when I was quite new here there seemed to be a new abortion thread every month, with many people getting restricted. There's questions I would have liked to ask but didn't because at that time it seemed as though anyone asking a question which challenged the official line would be restricted. I feel this does create an atmosphere of fear and intellectual dishonesty. There are still people who are restricted over the abortion issue and have changed their views but are still restricted which is a shame.

[tir1944]

I feel this does create an atmosphere of fear and intellectual dishonesty.
Yes,Revleft is a very authoritarian forum.
On topic,i think that the term "pro-life" itself is horrible.
It should be "anti-abortion" or something.

[thefinalmarch]

I don't understand why those who are against abortion are restricted.

Do you restrict pro-life/anti-choice members?

Yes.

The only acceptable position on abortion on the forum is support for unrestricted, widespread, and totally free access to abortion at every stage of pregnancy throughout the entire world. The decision of whether to abort should be made only by each individual pregnant woman, and every woman has a right to choose. Any member who disagrees with this position and calls for any kind of barrier to access or suggests that any other party should have any degree of control will be restricted on the grounds that opposition to abortion is a form of sexism.


http://www.revleft.com/vb/faq.php?faq=restrictions

[Ocean Seal]

They should be banned, just like other sexists/racists/homophobics


You shouldn't have been banned, because you kept it a secret until you developed your understanding of Communism and realised pro-life is a load of bollocks.

I'm talking about absolute idiots who come here, call themselves communist and then spurt out a load of bullshit anti-communist views. A good example is people being pro-Zionism (there's been a recent case with some absolute idiot called Scarlet Sojourner or something like that).

I don't think that banning them is the proper option. At least they should be given a decent amount of time to assess their views. If they are not pro-choice then they should be restricted only if they post propaganda and in general harass us with something that should be a non-issue. If they merely state that they are "pro-life" I don't think that they should be restricted, so long as it doesn't interfere with the forums activities and they aren't actively trying to "convert" us.

[The Old Man from Scene 24]

I lean towards being pro-choice. On most topics, I find it hard to understand why someone would have such opposing views; however, although I am not pro-life, I can somewhat understand why some people are. I believe that most pro-lifers do not wish to purposely discriminate against women, rather they are more concerned about killing what could become a human. I have a little more mercy for opposing ideologies on the abortion case, than I do on other political issues.

[Apoi_Viitor]

Is opposing late term abortions sexist?

[Leftsolidarity]

You shouldn't have been banned, because you kept it a secret until you developed your understanding of Communism and realised pro-life is a load of bollocks.

I'm talking about absolute idiots who come here, call themselves communist and then spurt out a load of bullshit anti-communist views. A good example is people being pro-Zionism (there's been a recent case with some absolute idiot called Scarlet Sojourner or something like that).

Developed an understanding of communism? I had it already. On a certain topic my views were mistaken, that doesn't mean I didn't have an understanding of communism. Get off your high horse.

And yeah, I reported that person

[The Douche]

Is opposing late term abortions sexist?

My position is abortion, on demand, no questions asked, at any point during pregnancy.

[Leftsolidarity]

My position is abortion, on demand, no questions asked, at any point during pregnancy.

Agreed

[thefinalmarch]

Is opposing late term abortions sexist?
Yes.

Whatever moral or ethical qualms one may have even with late-term abortions, the fact remains that (in the words of the BA in the FAQ) anyone "[calling] for any kind of barrier to access or [suggesting] that any other party should have any degree of control will be restricted on the grounds that opposition to abortion is a form of sexism."

[dodger]

In the real world abortion is in reach of many more. it was always so. Legal abortion despite opposition from a venal catholic clergy has come about through peoples efforts. The rich never batted an eyelid they have always had access to abortion or indeed divorce.Illegal abortion placed a female in a terrible dilemma....risk of death, blackmail and criminal prosecution. People defied the catholic church in Italy by bringing in legal abortion. Before that time a pal in Naples introduced me to her Ma 8 children and 45 abortions under her belt. Curious I asked my pal why no contraceptives, ma was a nurse Auntie a doctor after all. "Such a simple procedure why bother with all that Paraphernalia." Surely the penalties would be terrible if the authorities found out about your ma and Aunty's abortion activities.(they had carried out 1,000's). They had been summoned to a examining magistrate a well known papal bigot. She demanded the paperwork which had not been found, accusing her of obstructing an investigation. On the contrary she would be the most cooperative witness the state ever had. The papers were indeed elsewhere in duplicate in 2 places in case of fire. Start by giving names...."SISTER....SISTER,,SISTER oh cazzo...help me "... "yes i know who you mean, good family too!!" The double act soon became a comedy routine the office was cleared as they alluded to ranking officials of state church and media, whose wife daughter or girlfriend had sought assistance. Needless to say the matter was dropped and never resurfaced...or they ever kept any records. So nun priest police political capo, careworn housewives could all sleep well that night. Here in catholic lala land neighbour's very young daughter died after an illegal abortion .Sad affair. College, everything to look forward to. What more do we need to know? Is there a moral issue buried under all this hypocrisy? We must prise the claws of religion from our flesh. Tame religion...it's the only way to live. It really is.

[Zostrianos]

What I find most shocking and hypocritical about self proclaimed "pro-lifers" (in the US especially), is that they're almost always religious fundamentalists, who claim they're standing up for human life, but yet they wholeheartedly support America's overseas wars that kill countless innocent people. "If it's abortion, it's murder. If it's our troops killing innocents, it's just collateral damage". :thumbdown: And while they oppose abortion, they also oppose contraception, which reduces abortion rates....

That being said, while I am fully pro-choice, I think abortion should be avoided as much as possible outside of rape and incest cases. People should have the good sense to use protection during sex if they don't want kids, instead of just doing it and then resorting to an abortion because they were careless during sex. And there should be more sex education in schools to encourage this. Apparently, the US Bible belt has the highest rate of teenage abortions in North America, because kids aren't taught about contraception by their parents and teachers, and so they have unprotected sex without realizing what will happen...

[Apoi_Viitor]

Yes.

Whatever moral or ethical qualms one may have even with late-term abortions, the fact remains that (in the words of the BA in the FAQ) anyone "[calling] for any kind of barrier to access or [suggesting] that any other party should have any degree of control will be restricted on the grounds that opposition to abortion is a form of sexism."

But why is it sexist?

[eyedrop]

But why is it sexist?

Because if sexually active women can get pregnant for nine months, without wanting to, at random times we will never get anywhere close to gender equality.


That being said, while I am fully pro-choice, I think abortion should be avoided as much as possible outside of rape and incest cases. People should have the good sense to use protection during sex if they don't want kids, instead of just doing it and then resorting to an abortion because they were careless during sex.

Who does this, except the caricatures put forth by the ultra-right wing ?

[ScarletSojourner]

(this can change out of learning because I didn't know where to put it)

When I first came to Revleft I was against abortion. I never vocalized that because I saw that you could get restricted for this. I have completely reversed my views now after a lot more thinking on the subject and reading discussions on here.


I want to note though that my pro-life stance didn't come through religion because I was atheist. It came because I felt that it was the right thing to do to protect the life of a fetus in most circumstances. It was misguided feelings of wanting to help people.

I don't understand why those who are against abortion are restricted. Not only because I think it is not needed but also because say I was open about my anti-abortion views when I first got here. I would have been restricted. My views have completely changed but how do you know that to unrestrict me?

So you are fine with sexism? :confused:

Sexism and anti-semitism often go hand in hand though :crying:

[xub3rn00dlex]

So you are fine with sexism? :confused:

Sexism and anti-semitism often go hand in hand though :crying:

The fuck are you on about? Sexism and popsicles go hand in hand usually. Go troll the other thread. He never said he was fine with sexism, he said his views developed over the course of his membership here, which is kind of the whole point of the forum?

[Smyg]

Ban this fucker. Now. I've had it with this racist, zionist troll.

[ScarletSojourner]

The fuck are you on about? Sexism and popsicles go hand in hand usually. Go troll the other thread. He never said he was fine with sexism, he said his views developed over the course of his membership here, which is kind of the whole point of the forum?

Only sexist scum would be against choice!!! :cursing::cursing::cursing:

[ScarletSojourner]

The fuck are you on about? Sexism and popsicles go hand in hand usually. Go troll the other thread. He never said he was fine with sexism, he said his views developed over the course of his membership here, which is kind of the whole point of the forum?

Leftsolidarity is anti-semite :crying::crying::crying:

[Smyg]

As I said in your troll thread:



Hoho, you're hilarious. Nice idiocy, there. How about using some actual arguments and facts for your claims?

[Azraella]

Only sexist scum would be against choice!!! :cursing::cursing::cursing:


No. Your red herring drivel indicates that you have not considered this topic and how everyone thinks about this topic. I am perfectly fine with choice, choice is not the issue here. Everyone is "pro-choice". The question is whether you agree with abortion or not. I admittedly have thought about this topic in religious terms and in practical terms. I am anti-abortion, I am not against women choosing to get an abortion.

[ColonelCossack]

I'm pro-choice.

The foetus is unconscious, what does it care? And it's too undeveloped to be sentient...

I think that the "pro-life" stance is somewhat reactionary.

It is, however, first and foremost, the mother's choice.

[xub3rn00dlex]

Only sexist scum would be against choice!!! :cursing::cursing::cursing:


Leftsolidarity is anti-semite :crying::crying::crying:

I don't get it? Are you impyling i'm anti-choice? Because i could give two shits about a fetus whether it's a week old or 8 months old. It's not my choice, the woman can make her decision without me having any say in it, especially if the woman is not in a relaionship with me. As for LS being an anti-semite, prove it or shut the fuck up.

[Crux]

I'm pro-death. Seriosuly though I don't see how you, that goes for most of you it seems, can rationalize being pro-choice but still anti-abortion. Abortion isn't pretty, sure. But I don't see how that gives anyone any right to moralize.

[Crux]

Oh and guys, if you do knock someone up remember being prochoice does not mean it's your choice. Nor should it be, legally or morally.

[pastradamus]

Im all in favour of abortion. I was against restricting people who were pro-life but thats a different discussion for a different day.

Abortion is the womans choice. She can decide what to do with an unborn child as it is her right to control what she does with her own body and should NEVER be subject to what the state tells her in this regard.

[pastradamus]

Oh and guys, if you do knock someone up remember being prochoice does not mean it's your choice. Nor should it be, legally or morally.

Absolutely!

[Stew312856]

This dialogue ignores the inherent issue, not abortion but this newcomer's own recent 'conversion' to Leftist political action. Abortion stance is merely the most radical of symptoms of being under the control of Althusser's Ideological State Apparatuses. My own upbringing in the Catholic religion engendered a mainline current of anti-abortionism, tempered in the Secular West in America and the UK by feminism. While there are pro-choice Catholics, they are considered heretical by the Pope, the final authority on the matter. However, this matter is one based in the New Atheism current of discussion.

Basically, Christopher Hitchens has delivered a cognizant argument for a pro-choice pro-woman atheist ethic, as well have other recent atheists. He recognizes the fetus as a living being but also recognizes the right to full and open abortion.

My own ability to deal with this, in my own conversion to Revolutionary Leftist political causes, is not so much contradiction but transcendence. I refuse to seriously engage a Right Wing anti-woman, anti-feminist person trying to suggest their "solution" to abortion. It just is, as the Buddha says, and as men we need to support women either way they handle that situation with THEIR bodies.

The basis of this assumption is that I as a man have no a prioriexperience as a woman to even comprehend the state of being pregnant, let alone tell another woman how to handle her body. Are you kidding? My adamance to my own ignorance is my strength. I recognize herein the ability of someone else, the woman, to make a decision, and do not think they will make a wrong decision. The fact is with abortion there is no empirical right or wrong, this is simply too complex an issue for sweeping statements and excommunications.The only one who knows what is right for her is the woman, and no one else, regardless of sex or gender of that Other. The refusal to cede ground here and say a woman is victimized by HER OWN LEGAL DECISION is pro-woman, it says a woman is intelligent enough, if not more than a man.

I think the Learning section is a good place for this sort of exploration.

[SocialistTommy]

I agree with abortion, if the child isn't wanted, then it isn't going to be loved.

[pastradamus]

I agree with abortion, if the child isn't wanted, then it isn't going to be loved.

Indeed, its funny how pro-lifers like to present abortion as a form of contraception as if any woman would willingly and carelessly abort a pregnancy without thought.

[Erratus]

I am pro-choice but I do think that restricting anyone just because they are pro-life is a bit extreme. I know where you are coming from. I don't much care for those idiots who insist on spamming a thread with the bloodiest pictures of aborted fetuses they can find. But some of them are willing to discuss things rationally, and come from the viewpoint that the fetus is a human whose rights need to be weighed against the mother's. While I think that is a ridiculous notion I don't see the need to restrict someone just because they hold it.

[Apoi_Viitor]

Because if sexually active women can get pregnant for nine months, without wanting to, at random times we will never get anywhere close to gender equality.

My question was in regards to late term abortions though...

[Parvati]

Didn't know people can be restricted for this. I understand it if you're a pro-capitalist and by the way pro-choice.

Maybe it's my maoist influence but I think that ordinary, proletarian people could be against abortion (for humanist or moral reasons - don't really care about the religious question, it's the same thing) and that we need to discuss and convince them why it's a fundemental right for women and we need to fight for it. It's a contradiction among the people