Libyan rebels start fighting each other, economic problems continue

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15726099


Libyan factions in deadly clashes near Zawiya

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/56707000/jpg/_56707496_013329368-1.jpg Fighters from Zawiya clashed with those from the Warshefana tribal areas
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15726099#story_continues_1) Libya Crisis (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12480844)



Final days (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15516678)
Counting the cost (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15528984)
Bloody birth (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15416019)
How Gaddafi died (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15390980)



Several days of fighting between rival factions near the Libyan coastal city of Zawiya have left at least seven people dead, reports say.
The BBC's Karen Allen in Libya says rival communities have been fighting for an area previously controlled by Gaddafi loyalists.
The interim government said the fighting had been resolved.
However analysts say the violence raises questions about stability in post-Gaddafi Libya.
The country is still awash with weapons and armed groups following the rebellion that led to the collapse of Col Muammar Gaddafi's rule.
Interim Libyan leader Mustafa Abdul-Jalil said the ruling ruling National Transitional Council (NTC) had brought together elders from the feuding areas - Zawiya and the nearby tribal lands of Warshefana - and that the dispute has been resolved over the weekend.
"I want to assure the Libyan people that everything is under control," he said on Sunday.
However, witnesses said some fighting was still taking place as he spoke.
Reports said trouble flared up on Thursday when fighters from Warshefana set up a checkpoint on a highway near Zawiya, challenging fighters from the city.
Fighters from Zawiya reportedly accused their Warshefana counterparts of having links to the old government.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/56707000/gif/_56707582_libya_zawiya_nov2011.gif
A fighter from the capital Tripoli, quoted by AP news agency, said the two sides had been battling for control of a military camp of the ousted government on the main road between Tripoli and Zawiya.
Witnesses reported hearing heavy gunfire and the explosions of rocket-propelled grenades.
At least seven people were killed although one report quoting medics in the Warshefana region put the toll at 13 - four from Zawiya and nine from Warshefana.
Mr Abdul-Jalil said the trouble had been started by "young men behaving irresponsibly" and that the NTC had established a committee to address the grievances of both sides.
NTC leaders have said they cannot quickly disarm the various armed factions across the country.
Mr Abdul-Jalil said there was high unemployment among the armed men and that the new government had to offer alternatives such as jobs, education and training.


The death of Gaddafi doesn't mean the return of stability to this area. This should be no surprise-social and economic contradictions took down the Gaddafi regime, and it seems that the NTC has no clear plan to resolve these any time soon. They could easily share the same fate in the long run. It also goes to show that the rebel forces were always more of an unprofessional and diverse militia than a particularly united group of people.

[ColonelCossack]

Not surprising in the least... a sentiment echoed, I think, by many people here. :p

[Zealot]

The only people who think this is actually news are non-marxists, we saw this coming a mile away.

[khad]

This should be no surprise--mercenaries, NATO, and their useful idiots destroyed the Libyan government and the one thing keeping them from fundamentalist bedlam in an inhospitable wasteland

Fixed it for you.

[IndependentCitizen]

Are you suggesting the Libyan rebels should have just put up with an oppressive regime. Things like this will happen, and no doubt straight after a socialist revolution. It's awful, but it's just how things are. We can't expect this to be a perfect revolution, if there ever was one.

[pastradamus]

As said earlier, we all say this coming a mile away. It tends to happen in just about every country "liberated" by NATO. A libyan friend has told me that he wouldn't be at all surprised if the East (cyrenicia) attempted to seperate from the west due to tribal and ethnic differences.

[khad]

Are you suggesting the Libyan rebels should have just put up with an oppressive regime. Things like this will happen, and no doubt straight after a socialist revolution. It's awful, but it's just how things are. We can't expect this to be a perfect revolution, if there ever was one.
And I'm sure the neoliberal sharia-law stage is a necessary transitional step towards socialism.

[Zealot]

The band of imperialist-backed warlording thugs are not revolutionaries

[IndependentCitizen]

And I'm sure the neoliberal sharia-law stage is a necessary transitional step towards socialism.
I don't understand, where did I say this is a transition into socialism? Gaddafi was just as neo-liberal as those who sought to rid him...

[khad]

I don't understand, where did I say this is a transition into socialism?
Because you brought up socialist revolution.


Gaddafi was just as neo-liberal as those who sought to rid him...
He may have been many things, but you're pretty much dead wrong on this.

[pastradamus]

Are you suggesting the Libyan rebels should have just put up with an oppressive regime. Things like this will happen, and no doubt straight after a socialist revolution. It's awful, but it's just how things are. We can't expect this to be a perfect revolution, if there ever was one.

A very true statement. However it was especially inevitable when NATO got involved. Obviously not everybody is going to agree all the time but the NTC is an UNELECTED regime with absolutely no Democratic support whatsoever. It was installed by corrupt, pro-western elements who shared the same neo-liberal views as them. Many of its members are former Gaddafi cabinet members who went over to the rebels when the going got tough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Abdul_Jalil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_El-Hariri

Its also shocking at just how many members of the NTC are involved in business or western economics. They almost all seem to come exclusively from a business background with strong ties to the west. Another interesting aspect is that many of them seem to have been living outside Libya for anything up to 30 years in some cases, mostly in France, Germany and Italy.

[khad]

Its also shocking at just how many members of the NTC are involved in business or western economics. They almost all seem to come exclusively from a business background with strong ties to the west. Another interesting aspect is that many of them seem to have been living outside Libya for anything up to 30 years in some cases, mostly in France, Germany and Italy.
And the elder Gaddafi was the only one holding them back from their full neoliberal fury. As they were going to privatize everything, Gaddafi demanded that the nation's oil profits be redistributed to Libyans in the form of direct cash payments, a plan that those same neoliberal ministers derided as "unrealistic" and "foolish."

[pastradamus]

And the elder Gaddafi was the only one holding them back from their full neoliberal fury. As they were going to privatize everything, Gaddafi demanded that the nation's oil profits be redistributed to Libyans in the form of direct cash payments, a plan that those same neoliberal ministers derided as "unrealistic" and "foolish."

Indeed. Most amazingly they also demanded the privitisation of Libyas water supply. This water supply comes from massive underground reserves in the sahara desert. It cost billions of dollars to develope and is one of the largest engineering projects in world history. This was all paid for with taxpayers money and is essential to life in Libya. That scumbag Jalil wanted this privitised. As bad as Gadaffi was he had some small sense of principle and empathy for working people that these people dont seem to posses at all.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Fixed it for you.

Yes, there are no social contradictions in Libya, and if there were they had nothing to do with why people were protesting his rule. Clearly they were all either Islamist guerrillas or paid agents of Obama, Cameron and Sarkozy. This, I'm sure, is why Gaddafi knew to stick up for his buddy Ben Ali when the protests started in Tunisia.


And I'm sure the neoliberal sharia-law stage is a necessary transitional step towards socialism. This may be a good point but it also sounds a lot like the new government of Tunisia, and if the Muslim Brotherhood does well in Egypt then we will see the same there. However, these neoliberal shariah governments will face the same social contradictions which toppled the earlier dictators. If the NTC really goes down that path, it will fall for reasons which an economic materialist analysis would support, especially in a country awash with small arms and now lacking a professional army with any serious strength. Many of the "Rebels" come from unemployed youth and students, and there's no reason to think that they would accept a government which tries to drive up water prices and cut social services which they already have difficulty obtaining.

[IndependentCitizen]

Because you brought up socialist revolution.


He may have been many things, but you're pretty much dead wrong on this.
Oh, okay then. Can you care to explain how he wasn't a puppet for the neo-liberals? Care to show me how awesome Libyan's lives were under dictatorship?

I bought up socialist revolution as a hypothetical situation, this evidently isn't a socialist revolution, no. But my point was, it should be expected that post-revolution there would be some unrest. Not that this was a socialist revolution itself.

Also, was Gaddafi a socialist? He may have well have been when he first came to power. But ever since has been a brutal dictator.


A very true statement. However it was especially inevitable when NATO got involved. Obviously not everybody is going to agree all the time but the NTC is an UNELECTED regime with absolutely no Democratic support whatsoever. It was installed by corrupt, pro-western elements who shared the same neo-liberal views as them. Many of its members are former Gaddafi cabinet members who went over to the rebels when the going got tough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Abdul_Jalil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_El-Hariri

Its also shocking at just how many members of the NTC are involved in business or western economics. They almost all seem to come exclusively from a business background with strong ties to the west. Another interesting aspect is that many of them seem to have been living outside Libya for anything up to 30 years in some cases, mostly in France, Germany and Italy.

Oh absolutely, NATO was all over it. I won't deny it's still an issue for Libyans today; but to defend Gaddafi IMO is just plain stupid. I'm not defending the NTC, and we don't know whether this revolution has truly finished. The people may still want to remove the NTC and implement its own government, or even better yet - distribute land and bring property under common ownership.

But I still standby my comment that Gaddafi had to go, but IMO, the revolution hasn't ended just yet.

[brigadista]

from nov 3

SMH

http://af.reuters.com/article/invest...=investingNews



RIPOLI (Reuters) - Libya's acute cash crisis is set to get worse and its banking system requires a complete overhaul that will be guided by the International Monetary Fund and World Bank, the central bank's recently appointed governor said.

Saddek Omar Elkaber told Reuters in an interview that just $1.5 billion out of around $170 billion of Libyan assets abroad had been unfrozen, and with the first delivery of the war-torn country's new banknotes still nearly two months away, the liquidity crisis was far from over.

"The first shipment will arrive at the end of December... We are going to have to manage the liquidity problem until then," Elkaber said earlier this week.

Elkaber, previously deputy CEO at the Arab Banking Corporation in London, replaced Gassem Azzoz as head of the central bank a month ago, officials of the governing National Transitional Council said.

Reform of Libya's banking system should be guided by a roadmap assembled by international bodies including the IMF, the new governor said, but for now the central bank's priority was coping with the banknote shortage.

Wage increases, medication and reconstruction are putting a further strain on the very limited cash supply, and queues outside banks have grown longer this week ahead of the greater Eid festival of sacrifice, when families traditionally buy a sheep for slaughter at a cost of around 500 Libyan dinars.

A lack of cash as well as a shortage of animals has caused prices to rise by several hundred dinar, compounding the problem.

Despite a UN resolution scrapping sanctions following the death of ousted leader Muammar Gaddafi, the process of unfreezing Libyan assets is lengthy because the money is spread out across many countries with different regulations.


"The promises have been made for the media," Elkaber said.

A NEW BANKING MODEL

He said he hoped the influence of international organizations would help shape a new Libyan model of banking, and the groundwork had already been laid by IMF and World Bank over the previous 2-3 years.

"The IMF and WB have a roadmap and I would like to go ahead with the facelift. We need a strong central bank," he said.

A primary obstacle would be overcoming a shortage of labour because the national workforce lacked the skills required for the banking sector - as in most sectors across the economy. These included English and other foreign languages, which were removed from the school curriculum under Gaddafi's rule.

"Over the past 42 years the old regime tried to break the education system... there are not enough high-skilled workers," he said.

Elkaber urged foreign skilled workers to return to the country, but conceded that worries about security could remain an impediment for years to come.

The demands of bringing the country's unruly and heavily armed militia under the control of the transitional government is worrying foreign observers and many foreign workers are adopting a wait-and-see approach until stability is restored.

"The security issue will take some time," he said adding that it could take five years for the new political system to settle.

For now, working out a basic budget and dealing with emergencies were the bank's priority. It was too early to comment on exchange rate policy, foreign licenses or specific banking models Elkaber said.

"Our focus is food, medicine and reconstruction in areas like Sirte, Misrata, Zintan and Zawia, but also in smaller towns, and to try to reactivate manufacturing," he said.

[khad]

Oh, okay then. Can you care to explain how he wasn't a puppet for the neo-liberals?
Half a year on, and the left wing of capital is still repeating these lies.

You liberals love wikileaks so much, so why don't you go and read wikileaks on how western corporations complained about how the Libyan government and their welfare redistribution were squeezing their profits.

Care to show me how awesome Libyan's lives were under dictatorship?Highest per capita income in Africa.
Highest human development index in Africa.
Highest life expectancy in Africa (77.5; 78.2 US)
Second lowest HIV infection rate in continental Africa.
Interest-free bank loans
Free health care
The fact that Libya could barely support 4 million people, let alone 6 without the Great Man-Made River project.

The list goes on and on.

[pastradamus]

Oh absolutely, NATO was all over it. I won't deny it's still an issue for Libyans today; but to defend Gaddafi IMO is just plain stupid. I'm not defending the NTC, and we don't know whether this revolution has truly finished. The people may still want to remove the NTC and implement its own government, or even better yet - distribute land and bring property under common ownership.

But I still standby my comment that Gaddafi had to go, but IMO, the revolution hasn't ended just yet.

Haha, Im in agreement with you that Gadaffi had to go and im not refuting you in any way. Im just using your post to develope the debate a bit by mentioning a few points. Im simply saying (as im sure you agree) that it should have been done differently and that we've gone for bad to worse.

[pastradamus]

Half a year on, and the left wing of capital is still repeating these lies.

You liberals love wikileaks so much, so why don't you go and read wikileaks on how western corporations complained about how the Libyan government and their welfare redistribution were squeezing their profits.
Highest per capita income in Africa.
Highest human development index in Africa.
Highest life expectancy in Africa (77.5; 78.2 US)
Second lowest HIV infection rate in continental Africa.
Interest-free bank loans
Free health care
The fact that Libya could barely support 4 million people, let alone 6 without the Great Man-Made River project.

The list goes on and on.

Indeed. If is wasn't for his human rights abuses then you'd actually rate him as a comparitively decent leader. It must bementioned though that he did 'playboy' a little and despite not being a neo-liberal himself he did make friends with many.

[pastradamus]

"The IMF and WB have a roadmap and I would like to go ahead with the facelift. We need a strong central bank," he said.


There goes any public initiave that was ever set up. The worker wont have a crumb left when they finish their dirty work.

[Ocean Seal]

Indeed. If is wasn't for his human rights abuses then you'd actually rate him as a comparitively decent leader. It must bementioned though that he did 'playboy' a little and despite not being a neo-liberal himself he did make friends with many.
His human rights abuses summed to about 2,800 people killed during his 40+ year rule. I would think that more will die during this rebel reaction. That being said, Qaddafi's largest problem was making too many friends with the West and no expecting problems in the future. He was neo-liberal, but the rebels are even more neo-liberal, more racist, and more fundamentalist.

[Le Socialiste]

As said earlier, we all say this coming a mile away. It tends to happen in just about every country "liberated" by NATO. A libyan friend has told me that he wouldn't be at all surprised if the East (cyrenicia) attempted to seperate from the west due to tribal and ethnic differences.

I've been wondering about this myself. There's little doubt that the tribal factions within the country will each be vying for dominance and influence in a post-Gaddafi Libya. The question is whether or not this attempt to fill the power vacuum will result in the fragmentation and dissolution of Libya itself. Another thing to watch is how the international community responds to a potential split - especially NATO/the West. The latter have a vested interest in making sure Libya's resources start flowing again, and the break up of the country is most likely something they don't want to see. That's why they backed the NTC, and will continue to back it, so long as it retains the ability to keep the country more or less intact and keeps oil production going at a profitable pace.

[pastradamus]

His human rights abuses summed to about 2,800 people killed during his 40+ year rule

Its still an awful lot of people. He was a Tyrant.

.
I would think that more will die during this rebel reaction.

Absolutely agreed.


That being said, Qaddafi's largest problem was making too many friends with the West and no expecting problems in the future. He was neo-liberal, but the rebels are even more neo-liberal, more racist, and more fundamentalist.

Absolutely, again im in agreement. Good post sir!

[khad]

Its still an awful lot of people. He was a Tyrant.
Brits killed more. I suppose we should storm parliament and ram a k-bar up Cameron's ass to make the point stick.

[Le Socialiste]

Brits killed more. I suppose we should storm parliament and ram a k-bar up Cameron's ass to make the point stick.

What's wrong with storming parliament? :confused:

[pastradamus]

Brits killed more. I suppose we should storm parliament and ram a k-bar up Cameron's ass to make the point stick.

We should! But I hope you'll pay for the flight! :D

[pastradamus]

What's wrong with storming parliament? :confused:

Nothing.

[Le Socialiste]

Nothing.

Good. :)

[dodger]

A wise old bird said never make predictions, at least not in writing. We only make fools of ourselves. Oh dear, I try to stick to that. Sometimes I just plumb forget and it bites me on the bum. I think it was about the time an aircraft carrier was steaming up the Suez Canal. NATO was in disarray some dam fool SAS and diplomats were handcuffed in the desert. I suddenly had a vision of a Caliphate stretching from Rabat to the Persian Gulf, if the triumvirate of NATO-US-EU carried on their zig-zag course. This illegal disrespect for borders in tandem with an EU (failed colonial hasbeens banded together imperial wannabees). Gods teeth even tiny Norway was let off the leash and joined in, albeit at 30,000ft. There are many fine cities in North Africa, they have been in existence for thousands of years. Much good has come out of them, left in peace and to their own devices much more good might flow. Dark forces have not prevailed yet. It is not my job to pronounce on which faction is just or demonize others. What we must do is break up these military and economic blocs somehow weaken them. Respect others sovereignty and deepen our own. Being ruled by a class from outside our borders is not a step to freedom. I just got a picture from a pal in London, sneering. A picture of an Al Qaeda flag atop the Judicial Ministry building in Benghazi. "Benghazi today! Tomorrow the Gulf"

I do hope I am wrong, be happy for my pal to be one up on me.....

[Threetune]

His human rights abuses summed to about 2,800 people killed during his 40+ year rule. I would think that more will die during this rebel reaction. That being said, Qaddafi's largest problem was making too many friends with the West and no expecting problems in the future. He was neo-liberal, but the rebels are even more neo-liberal, more racist, and more fundamentalist.

“He” clearly did not infringe the “human rights” of enough of the right kind of people, which was defiantly a big mistake. He should have read Lenin better than he did. And I know he did.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

His human rights abuses summed to about 2,800 people killed during his 40+ year rule.

His army lacked any accountability and got away with abuse. During the civil war, there was a case where a woman was raped, and instead of investigating it they threw her in prison and the state media called her a drunk, a whore and a belly dancer. His agents assassinated dissidents abroad, and we don't know how many unarmed civilians his soldiers killed during the recent uprising. The army used heavy artillery on many parts of the country-even if the story of the air force bombing cities with sukhois is false, they still used grad rockets on populated cities. On the other hand, we don't know how many innocent civilians were killed by the rebels either, and they ultimately used Grad rockets on Sirte too, so they aren't innocent in all this either, but it's not like Gaddafi wasn't a dictator with the blood of innocent people on his hands.

To make matters worse, he was more than happy to support leaders who were even worse in other parts of Africa. Gaddafi was right to support the ANC, but he was in the wrong to support Idi Amin, the RUF and Charles Taylor.


Brits killed more. I suppose we should storm parliament and ram a k-bar up Cameron's ass to make the point stick.

Without duplicating the sodomy and mindless lynching of a former head of state, I wouldn't object to seeing Cameron removed by an uprising and put to trial.


Highest per capita income in Africa.
Highest human development index in Africa.
Highest life expectancy in Africa (77.5; 78.2 US)
Second lowest HIV infection rate in continental Africa.
Interest-free bank loans
Free health care
The fact that Libya could barely support 4 million people, let alone 6 without the Great Man-Made River project.
Don't you think that Libya's massive per-capita oil wealth was the main thing responsible for that, not Gaddafi being some kind of benevolent despot? With all that oil money it would be hard for a government to keep power without social redistribution of some sort. His government had pretty imperfect social services anyways. The HIV scandal in Benghazi in the 90s is a good example. So is the high youth unemployment, which would be an obvious contributing factor to the unrest.

Not to mention, considering the vast personal wealth that the family and associated cronies had accrued, the large number of state assets which were directly managed by some corrupt members of his family, as well as his and his family's propensity for gross conspicuous consumption, those numbers should have been even higher if the wealth was invested properly.

[pastradamus]

Don't you think that Libya's massive per-capita oil wealth was the main thing responsible for that, not Gaddafi being some kind of benevolent despot? With all that oil money it would be hard for a government to keep power without social redistribution of some sort. His government had pretty imperfect social services anyways. The HIV scandal in Benghazi in the 90s is a good example. So is the high youth unemployment, which would be an obvious contributing factor to the unrest.


I think that the social redistribution fizzled out more and more with Libya's oil reserves drying up but when you take a country like Saudi Arabia that has an abundance of Oil and dosent redistribute it at all. I dont believe he nessecarily had to redistribute oil profits in order to control his population. On the contrary, I think it actually worked against him in a way because people saw that they were getting less and less when they used to get much more from oil profits. It wasn't really his fault in that regard but the people began to feel cheated a little by this.

Yeah, the whole Benghazi Aids scandal involving the Bulgarian and Palestinian doctors was a ridiculous example of gaddafi going too far.