Most of Europe...

[The Old Man from Scene 24]

I've been starting to wonder if the European Union's socialism might be a transition stage to actual, original, Marxist Communism. Isn't socialism a transition stage into communism?http://planetsmilies.net/violent-smiley-7918.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)http://planetsmilies.net/violent-smiley-1562.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)http://planetsmilies.net/violent-smiley-1667.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

[Rusty Shackleford]

The European Union has no trace of socialism.


Cool smileys.

[mrmikhail]

The European Union is not Socialist, it has several "social democratic" nations, but no Socialist nations. While socialism is the lowest (first) stage of communism, no one has of yet has obtained it entirely. If anything the EU is an Imperialist capitalist organisation....

[The Old Man from Scene 24]

What makes it imperialistic? It seems very socialist to me, then again I don't live there, so...

[The Old Man from Scene 24]

I'll have to look up exactly what socialism is.

[thefinalmarch]

What makes it imperialistic? It seems very socialist to me, then again I don't live there, so...
Well then why don't you explain to us what makes it socialist?

[mrmikhail]

What makes it imperialistic? It seems very socialist to me, then again I don't live there, so...

The fact that it supports imperialism, engages in neo-imperialism, and so on.

Read up on my posts on the Greeks and you will see the economic imperialism. Here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/greek-prime-minister-t163917/index.html)

And yes, you need to educate yourself on Socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism), and the difference between it and Social Democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy)(or a welfare state) which is a bourgeois system of capitalism with worker appeasing policy

[Jimmie Higgins]

Many European countries certainty have many reforms that should make US workers drool with envey, but it is not socialist according to the Marxist and anarchist traditions. It's "socialist" in the way US mainstream politics usually talks about socialism.

In the US, socialism is considered to be any county with social-programs or government-run welfare programs. Communism is usually identified as Stalinist totalitarian countries with a nationalized economy. But for most of the revolutionary left, socialism means a worker-run society and communism means a classless and stateless society.

For me, the key is who really runs society and organizes the production of things. In the USSR is was not workers, nor is it workers in European countries. The ideas of either bringing socialism from a party in power or through getting elected and changing the system are "socialism from above" whereas I think only "socialism from below" can actually achieve a society democratically run by workers themselves in the common interests of all people.

[Black_Rose]

OMG... pikachu!!

[robbo203]

I've been starting to wonder if the European Union's socialism might be a transition stage to actual, original, Marxist Communism. Isn't socialism a transition stage into communism?http://planetsmilies.net/violent-smiley-7918.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)http://planetsmilies.net/violent-smiley-1562.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)http://planetsmilies.net/violent-smiley-1667.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)


No it isnt . Its just an alternative name for a non-market anti-statist communist society - at least in the traditional Marxian sense

We are in the transitional stage now - inside a capitalist society. We dont have to speculate on some hypothetical (and constantly postponed) future transitional stage.

Havent you noticed whats going on in the world lately?

[SHORAS]

Am I living in socialism?

[mrmikhail]

No it isnt . Its just an alternative name for a non-market anti-statist communist society - at least in the traditional Marxian sense

We are in the transitional stage now - inside a capitalist society. We dont have to speculate on some hypothetical (and constantly postponed) future transitional stage.

Havent you noticed whats going on in the world lately?

Socialism is, indeed, the first transitional stage of communism, as Marx stated, it is the lowest form of Communism.

Essentially, as Marx wrote it you must first achieve the highest advancement of capitalism, have the proletarian revolution, establish a transitional state of socialism, slowly leads to communism.

We are not in a transitional state, while we may at the moment be at the height of capitalism, we are no where near socialism as it was written by Marx, since to get to this phase a revolution must first happen. Only revisionists believe that socialism can be achieved through bourgeois democracy/states.

[Blackscare]

Am I living in socialism?

What if you're just living in a computer simulation of socialism?



Anyway, European Social-Democracy is not socialism. It's capitalism with a strong social safety net.

[mrmikhail]

Am I living in socialism?

No, no you are not. I haven't the slightest clue as to where robbo203 got this idea that we are living in the transition state.....

[Kamos]

Noo... Pikachu must not die!

http://www.deviantart.com/download/86875462/Soviet_Union_Pikachu_by_Varegess.jpg

[SHORAS]

We are in Socialism!

o4Dx1nnAoUU

[blackandyellow]

if our social democracy is meant to be a transition, we are failing because social democracy is being ripped apart everywhere and generally is a dead idea now.

[blackandyellow]

No, no you are not. I haven't the slightest clue as to where robbo203 got this idea that we are living in the transition state.....

His tradition in Marxism rejects the idea of a difference between socialism and communism

[Jimmy Haddow (SPS)]

Greece

Prime Minister George Papandreou forced out of office

www.socialistworld (http://www.<b>socialistworld</b>).net, 08/11/2011
website of the committee for a workers' international, CWI
New ’National unity’ government = ‘austerity coalition’
Andreas Payiatsos, Xekinima (CWI in Greece) & Niall Mulholland, CWI
http://www.socialistworld.net/img/20111108Grafik3192034429170822512.jpg
Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou was forced to leave office last weekend and for his PASOK government be replaced by a ’national unity’ coalition government. This new PASOK/New Democracy ‘austerity coalition’ will agree a bailout package which entails yet more punishing cuts that are driving millions of Greeks into poverty.
Papandreou was forced to stand down after days of upheaval caused by his decision - now scrapped - to hold a referendum on the EU plan to bail out debt-ridden Greece.
Possible new prime ministers include candidates with proven austerity cuts reputations - Lukas Papademos, a former deputy president of the European Central Bank, and Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos. The new coalition government is due to step down for new elections, likely to be held next February.
The deal agreed with the ECB, EU and IMF (the ‘Troika’), last month, would give the indebted Greek government 130bn euros, see a 50% write-off on private holders of Greek debts, and bring in yet more deeply unpopular austerity measures.
Economy shrinks by 15%

Troika policies have already shrunk the Greek economy by a staggering 15%, over the last 3 years. The PASOK government passed a series of laws under the directives of the Troika that push two thirds of Greek people into poverty. The salaries of public sector workers have been cut by about 50% (compared to what they were at beginning of 2010) and the minimum "legal" wage will go down to 500 euro per month (but even this, with “collective bargaining” abolished, is not binding on the employers. Over 40% of youth are unemployed. The Troika demand that 250,000 people are sacked from the civil service - more than one third of the workforce. Public services are taking a battering. Hospitals beds have already been reduced by 30% and a further 20% reduction is intended (to take it down to 50%). New taxes, together with the cuts in wages and benefits, mean the loss of hundreds of euro, every month, for many workers and their families. Children go to school complaining of hunger, with some fainting in class. Even the previously relatively well-off ’middle layers’ are now being driven into deprivation.
Papandreou made his desperate referendum proposal because the resistance of the Greek people to his cuts policies is so overwhelming. He realised that the PASOK government was in danger of total collapse. On 19 October, Greece saw the biggest 48 hour general strike and union demonstration in its post-war history. On 28 October, an annual day of "national pride" and parades commemorating Greece’s occupation during WW2, turned into angry anti-government demonstrations.

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2011-11-08Grafik6650631722874198415.jpg Student snubs officials


Blackmail

The former prime minister’s referendum was an attempt to blackmail the Greek people, by putting to them, ‘you either vote for the 26th October ’bail -out’ or Greece goes bankrupt, leaves the euro-zone, and you will all go hungry".
But the former Greek prime minister’s referendum plans soon came under enormous pressure from EU leaders, particularly Germany and France. They denounced the referendum believing it would see the Greek crisis spread risk to other EU economies, particularly vulnerable Italy.
In an act of blackmailing of their own, the German Chancellor Merkel and French President Sarkozi demanded that the referendum should be held on whether Greece wanted to be part of the EU or not. The next tranche of Greece’s existing bailout, amounting to 8 billion euro, was also put on hold, to exert extra pressure on Papandreou to drop his proposal.

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2011-11-08Grafik4223021889475059521.jpg Merkel and Sarkozy


There were huge divisions inside the ruling Greek PASOK party over the referendum plan, with Finance Minister, Evangelos Venizelos, and other key figures from the government, publicly opposing it and stating on 4 November that the referendum is scrapped. Members of the cabinet demanded Papandreou’s resignation in favor of a government of ‘national unity’.
After these fatal political blows, Papandreou survived a no-confidence vote in parliament on 4 November but only on the basis that he would visit the President on the following morning and hand in his own resignation in favor of a coalition government headed by a new (unelected) prime minister. Papandreou duly resigned on 5 November. This was an indication of the extremely deep crisis at the top of the Greek ‘political class’ and Establishment.
On Sunday night, PASOK and the opposition New Democracy (which previously refused offers to form a coalition government with PASOK) agreed to go on a coalition government, led by a third “personality”, for a period of a few months and then to hold new elections. The coalition government will be made up of the two main pro-capitalist parties and two smaller parties, one being the far right, populist LAOS.
Relentless propaganda

Greek workers and the middle classes also came under relentless propaganda pressure from the EU, Greek bosses and media over the referendum. They were told that unless they accept new more cuts, Greece would be forced out of the euro zone and the EU, and would suffer an even greater collapse of living standards.
The main Left parties, like the KKE (Greek communist party) and SYRIZA (a broad left party) did not put forward a viable alternative to this ferocious pro-capitalist propaganda assault.
All this has had an impact on the outlook of Greek people. Opinion polls showed that a large majority of Greeks were against holding a referendum. Moods changed after the massive propaganda by the ruling class and its mass media. A large majority, over two thirds, also favoured staying in the euro-zone and not more than about 15% stated that they prefer to leave (a number of different telephone polls were held, so there is no accurate figures, but the trends are the same in all).
These poll results are really an expression of desperation in desperate times - a ’hope against hope’ that somehow a new coalition government will find a way out of Greece’s deep economic crisis. In truth, most workers see no end to the crisis or cuts and any illusions section of the population have in the new coalition will most likely be short lived. Recent polls show that consistently 90% of the Greek people are against PASOK government cuts – policies which will be continued by the ‘national unity’ government.
Greek workers have shown many times since the crisis began in 2008/2009 that they are willing to fight-back against cuts and for an alternative to the crisis ridden system. Thirteen general strikes (two of which 48 hour general strikes) have taken place over a period of less than two years, as well as student strikes, sit-ins and occupations of public serviced buildings and schools, and mass non-payment campaigns against unjust taxes. Industrial action and mass protests culminating in the magnificent 48 hour general strike on 19 October. Around 500,000-800,000 people were on the streets of Athens on that day - the biggest post-war union demonstration in Greece.

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2011-11-08Grafik8032411551904719691.jpg Protest infront of parliament during 48 hour general strike


But the bureaucratic, conservative trade union leaders have not used the huge power of the organised working class to step up mass resistance to decisively finish off the PASOK government, to halt all cuts and to strive for a government of working people. The union tops only called for action in the last 18 months under the intense pressure of the masses – they have no plan or strategy to win, not to mention an alternative political programme.
Occupations and industrial action

Since the 19 October, occupations and sector-based strikes have receded. But this does not mean an end to industrial mass struggles, just a temporary pause after months of hectic strike and other mass activities. Youth and working people may now look to other forms of mass resistance. The mass non-payment campaigns against household taxes can take on new life, as can mass protests over environmental issues. The new wave of cuts promised by the ’austerity coalition’ means that class struggle is inevitable and new rounds of industrial action.
Some unions, involving council workers, primary school teachers, railway workers and the telecommunications workers, fought more determinedly and have broken their connections with PASOK. A section of the union movement is moving in a more radical, combative direction. Although these unions are splitting away from PASOK, their leaders are not giving their members a clear and bold plan of action. CWI in Greece (Xekhinima) appeals to the rank and file workers of these unions to make a definitive break from PASOK and to help build a new workers’ party, on bold socialist policies.
Xekinima (http://www.xekinima.org/) opposes the new ’national unity’ government of PASOK and New Democracy. This will be a coalition of yet more deep cuts and poverty. The policies the new coalition government will apply will be the same as has been applied up until now. The new government will obey the directives of Merkel and Sarkozy, to the last iota. There is nothing “positive” in this government apart from the fact that, one might say, New Democracy will be exposed before all Greeks as also responsible for austerity policies. Up until now, the ND leader, Samaras, has cynically adopted a populist role, criticizing government policies and blaming PASOK for not putting up resistance to the EU directives.
Political space for Left

Illusions amongst some sections of the population that things might get a ‘bit better’ under the ‘national unity’ coalition will not last long. In the political situation that will open up, the parties of the Left will have a unique and historic opportunity to grow and to play a decisive role. But to bring about the kind of fundamental changes that are required to provide real and lasting solutions to the deep problems faced by the Greek workers and the whole of society, requires the Left adopting a socialist programme and to fight decisively for system change. Up until now, the main, traditional parties of the Greek Left - the KKE (communist party) and SYN (Synaspismos – Coalition of the Left of Movements and Ecology) – refuse to move in this direction. The need to build and develop the mass movements, and to build new forces of the Left, with radical, socialist policies, is more starkly posed than ever.
Xekinima (http://www.xekinima.org/) puts forward a socialist perspective and policies. Xekinima (http://www.xekinima.org/) say, do not pay the debt and no more cuts! Xekinima (http://www.xekinima.org/) calls for a government representing working people, the impoverished middle classes, the poor and youth. A workers’ government would mean jobs, affordable housing, a properly funded education and health service. It would take the major planks of the economy into democratic public ownership and control, for the benefit of the majority not the wealthy elite.
Xekinima (http://www.xekinima.org/) reject the argument that Greeks must endure the destruction of their living standards so as to remain in the eurozone. Xekinima (http://www.xekinima.org/) also argues against sowing illusions in a so-called "progressive and sovereign national currency policy" that sections of the Greek Left put forward. There are no solutions on a national and capitalist basis. Xekinima (http://www.xekinima.org/) calls for genuine internationalism - for a workers’ alternative to capitalist crisis and austerity across Europe. Only with the prospect of common struggle with the workers in the rest of Europe can we find an alternative to the Europe of big capital, the bankers and the IMF and fight for a socialist Europe!



http://www.socialistworld.net/img/Logo.pngCommittee for a Workers' International
PO Box 3688, London E11 1YE, Britain, Tel: ++ 44 20 8988 8760, Fax: ++ 44 20 8988 8793, [email protected]

[Blake's Baby]

Socialism is, indeed, the first transitional stage of communism, as Marx stated, it is the lowest form of Communism.

Essentially, as Marx wrote it you must first achieve the highest advancement of capitalism, have the proletarian revolution, establish a transitional state of socialism, slowly leads to communism.

....

No, Marx didn't write that. There is no 'transitional state of socialism' in Marx's writings. What he talks about are are the revolution, the dictatorship of the proletariat, the lower phase of communism, and the higher phase of communism. Socialism for Marx is synonymous with communism.

I think you might be thinking of Lenin, who was a different guy with a different beard.

Anywhoooo... back at the European Farm...

1 - socialism is not a transition between capitalism and communism;
2 - the EU isn't socialist, it's not even social-democratic. It is distinctly pro-capitalist; it is like the NAFTA, a club for capitalists to get together internationally to better organise the exploitation of the working class.

You shouldn't be fooled by the fact that there are a bunch of parties of government in Europe that call themselves 'socialist' - it's an historical accident. They gave up being part of the workers' movement in 1914 when they supported the imperialist war. Nor should you be fooled by the existence of social welfare programmes, both in the EU and outside (countries like Norway for instance have a strong tradition of social welfare but are outside the EU, as have other places that were once European colonies, like New Zealand, that developed their politics long before the EU existed). It was realised many moons ago that in many ways social welfare programmes were a cost-saving measure for capitalism. It was the right in the UK that particualrly pushed the welfare state in the 1920s for instance.

The fact is that compared to most of the rest of the developed world, the USA is hopelessly under-developed. It's still stuck in some 1860s self-help voluntarist nightmare. That doesn't mean that the EU is 'socialist'.

[Thirsty Crow]

It's beyond me how in this time of an institutionalization of austerity one can speak of a welfare state in relation to EU, without serious reservations. And socialism? That's the opposite of the project of European integration in its current form.

Anyway, OP should get his basic theory straight and learn what socialism is. Also, there are numerous websites which can provide insight into how EU functions (that relates to the decades of dismantling the remnants of the welfare state).

[CommieTroll]

What makes it imperialistic? It seems very socialist to me, then again I don't live there, so...

The fact that two of its main member states recently funded and actively took part in the NATO bombing and invasion of Libya and overthrew Col. Gaddafi handing power to Islamist extremists who persecute black Libyans openly. These Islamist's sodomized Gaddafi with a combat knife then publicly executed him without trial. Not to mention the economic neocolonialism enforced on member states with weaker economies and less industrial power. This is the nature of the European Union and Capitalism, Social Democracy my ass

[OHumanista]

The EU is so screwed that even the social-democratic parties aren't even social democrats anymore. More like moderate neoliberal parties(and some aren't even moderate but hardcore neoliberal).
They were never socialist, but now they aren't even reformists anymore.

[RadioRaheem84]

Don't mean to derail the thread but a bigger issue is at hand:

This whole EU is socialist must really be a relatively new thing among people because growing up, I never even thought of the European nations as being "socialist".

This leads me to believe that there has been a massive concentration of libertarian think tank propaganda seeping into the media, academia, etc. in order to change the debate about socialism and confuse "social democracy" with socialism. Thus, eroding what's left of the European public sector.

Listen to the way people talk now. Anything government = State and State = socialism, no matter what.

People are really talking like libertarians. This is not a coincidence. They're passively accepting the logic about government, socialism, social democracy that libertarians all share.

[Q]

Socialism begins where the working class seizes political power and starts to reorganise society for its own interests. Europe is nowhere near this.

Having said that, the EU is of vast importance to socialists in Europe and indeed the world. The reason for this I wrote about a few weeks ago:



There is a lot of contention on this issue on the left. Broadly speaking much of the left takes a position against the EU being a project of the capitalist class arranging European "unity" on a basis of mutual capitalist interest. I think this position is pretty much ok.

However, things go awry when the same people try to offer an alternative and get stuck at national strategies. This can range from "radical" Keynesianism to blunt nationalism. All such roads are a dead end however, since capitalism is a global system and as such national roads away from it will lead to disaster: bankruptcy, military invasion, police state... you name it.

So, instead we have to realise that our positive alternative starts at a continental level. On this level we can start to build towards a better kind of society and transcend the evils of the inherited capitalist society, overcome the rule of value and start to begin a society based on the rule of planning to human need.

Thus, instead of merely attacking the EU, communists ought to engage with this given playing field and incorporate it into our own project of a united European working class, striving for political power as a class.

As for your questions:
1. I think we should generally oppose referendums. Despite their aura of being democratic, they in fact are not. First of all, we do not create the question on the ballot, the elite do and they'll use that position for their own agenda. Second, it might feed into the idea that people actually have a say about anything in society, while they do not. The Irish referendums on the Lisbon Treaty are a case in point: Just hold a referendum again and again until you have the "right" answer.

2. Britain is a part of Europe, despite that culturally you seem to have this habit of talking about "us" Britain and "Europe", as if it was on a different part of the world :D

But seriously, I merely repeat what I've already said: We should not buy into the official pro-Europe agenda, but claim our own pro-European agenda. This not being a far away and abstract thing into the future, but by engaging directly with the given playing field. I.e. demand democratic rights in the EU institutions. This will act as a lever to organise the working class as a class on a European level and let them claim Europe as opposed to falling back into nationalist romanticism.

3. A tricky debate indeed. I'm leaning to "yes" as it would mean more (political) unity and thus a common enemy. That said, it is a given that the Euro should actually survive its current existential crisis.

4. I support a European Democratic Republic. That is, a state where the people are sovereign and rule. The "USE" advocates are coming from a more pro-capitalist angle :)

5. If the referendum should come, we ought to participate in it and campaign for our cause. I don't see the point of the Tories using a whip. Against whom? Themselves? They will, after all, be the people starting the referendum!

As for my political affiliation: I'm a member of the Committee for a Workers' International (the English section of which is the Socialist Party in England & Wales) and consider myself an Orthodox Marxist.

[MustCrushCapitalism]

How did this whole "the EU is socialist" bullshit kick off? Most Americans seem to believe it.

[Smyg]

Don'tchaknow, everything left of American conservatism is socialism.

[Aurorus Ruber]

How did this whole "the EU is socialist" bullshit kick off? Most Americans seem to believe it.

Yeah, it always seemed rather strange to me as well. Type "European Union" into Youtube and you'll get dozens of results for conspiracy theories about it forming part of the socialist NWO and so forth. It seems a lot of people in America at least have some serious misunderstandings about the EU.

[robbo203]

Socialism is, indeed, the first transitional stage of communism, as Marx stated, it is the lowest form of Communism.

Essentially, as Marx wrote it you must first achieve the highest advancement of capitalism, have the proletarian revolution, establish a transitional state of socialism, slowly leads to communism..

He said no such thing. Socialism and communism were treated as synomyms by him and his contemporaries. If you have evidence to contrary, produce it. You are confusing Marx with Lenin in my opinion




We are not in a transitional state, while we may at the moment be at the height of capitalism, we are no where near socialism as it was written by Marx, since to get to this phase a revolution must first happen. Only revisionists believe that socialism can be achieved through bourgeois democracy/states.

Marx must have been a revisionist then since he cetainly entertained the idea that in some countries - England , Holland and possibly the USA atthe time - it was possible to democratically capture the state in a proletarian revolution.

I was not talking of a transitional state BTW but a transitional stage. I think you might have misread my post. I certainly dont support the idea of a transitional state

[promethean]

Socialism begins where the working class seizes political power and starts to reorganise society for its own interests. Europe is nowhere near this.

Having said that, the EU is of vast importance to socialists in Europe and indeed the world. The reason for this I wrote about a few weeks ago:
The EU is not socialist, neither can there be a socialist European Union since a conglomeration of nation-states cannot be socialist.


But seriously, I merely repeat what I've already said: We should not buy into the official pro-Europe agenda, but claim our own pro-European agenda. I am not sure who you are speaking for here. Who is "we"? Given that you are giving out such fantastic proclamations, who appointed you to this position?


As for my political affiliation: I'm a member of the Committee for a Workers' International (the English section of which is the Socialist Party in England & Wales) and consider myself an Orthodox Marxist.Are you giving out advice to your party when you are listing out these demands? If so, you would probably be better off talking to your party bosses than posting these on some anonymous message board.

[The Old Man from Scene 24]

I admit that I am under the typical American view of what socialism is. I don't have much experience in politics, and my political views often shift to different extremes a lot. Sometimes I feel like a Stalinist, and sometimes I feel like an anarchist.:confused:

I don't know how accurate it was, but earlier today I took a test to see what kind of communist I am, and I scored 'Marxist-Leninist'.

Also, if I seem like a lunatic, please excuse me. I am an inexperienced 15 year old who is still learning about leftism.

[Manic Impressive]

I admit that I am under the typical American view of what socialism is. I don't have much experience in politics, and my political views often shift to different extremes a lot. Sometimes I feel like a Stalinist, and sometimes I feel like an anarchist.:confused:

I don't know how accurate it was, but earlier today I took a test to see what kind of communist I am, and I scored 'Marxist-Leninist'.

Also, if I seem like a lunatic, please excuse me. I am an inexperienced 15 year old who is still learning about leftism.
don't worry mate we all started somewhere. How much have you read so far? If you haven't already I'd start with the manifesto of the communist party http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/
and the principles of communism
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm
and keep reading Marx before you move on to anyone else. We're supposed to be Marxists after all better to get a good understanding of him before you read people who added to his work. And remember there's no such thing as a stupid question only stupid answers ;)

[socialistjustin]

How did this whole "the EU is socialist" bullshit kick off? Most Americans seem to believe it.

RadioRaheem84 hit on it. There has been loads of propaganda in the media saying that EU members are socialist. Anything that has any kind of government assistance is socialism and the very fact that workers get longer vacations means it's a workers paradise. The French protested a new law about letting you go from work without reason or whatever and Fox News had a bunch of people on that were shocked that people would even protest this. That's the kind of crap people get from their news everyday about Europe.

[Q]

The EU is not socialist, neither can there be a socialist European Union since a conglomeration of nation-states cannot be socialist.
I never claimed that the EU is socialist. I propose you read more carefully what I wrote before responding to it.


I am not sure who you are speaking for here. Who is "we"? Given that you are giving out such fantastic proclamations, who appointed you to this position?
With "we" I was referring to the working class movement. I do not understand your point regarding "fantastic proclamations" though, could you elaborate on that?


Are you giving out advice to your party when you are listing out these demands? If so, you would probably be better off talking to your party bosses than posting these on some anonymous message board.
The quoted post was a reply to someone asking specific questions, one of which was to ask about my political affiliation.

[promethean]

This is what you wrote:


4. I support a European Democratic Republic.
This is what I wrote:

The EU is not socialist, neither can there be a socialist European Union since a conglomeration of nation-states cannot be socialist.You claim to support a European Democratic Republic, which sounds like "socialist Europe".



With "we" I was referring to the working class movement. I do not understand your point regarding "fantastic proclamations" though, could you elaborate on that?I did not know that there was a "working class movement" today. Your statements on behalf of this non-existent movement is similar to meaningless proclamations given out by politicians. Since you are giving out such statements for this made up movement, they naturally are fantastic proclamations.



The quoted post was a reply to someone asking specific questions, one of which was to ask about my political affiliation.So you are not giving advice to your own party.

[Q]

This is what you wrote:

This is what I wrote:
You claim to support a European Democratic Republic, which sounds like "socialist Europe".
It does indeed sound like a "socialist Europe" as socialism begins with the working class taking political power as a class. I'm not sure how this could be confused with the current EU, which indeed is an institution of the capitalist class and to which I'm opposed. However, I recognise that we cannot simply ignore the EU or bluntly state to leave it (and thus collapse into nationalist solutions, a dead end), but instead we need to engage with the given playing field we have and organise the working class on a pan-European level for its own interests by fighting for radical democracy.


I did not know that there was a "working class movement" today. Your statements on behalf of this non-existent movement is similar to meaningless proclamations given out by politicians. Since you are giving out such statements for this made up movement, they naturally are fantastic proclamations.
It does exist, be it not as an independent force, but instead submitted to the interests of the system, herded by trade union and social-democratic bureaucrats. Against their bureaucratic methods and national scope, communists should propose a democratic platform and linkup on an international level, independently of the state.


So you are not giving advice to your own party.
I'm not giving advise to my own organisation.

[promethean]

It does indeed sound like a "socialist Europe" as socialism begins with the working class taking political power as a class. I'm not sure how this could be confused with the current EU, which indeed is an institution of the capitalist class and to which I'm opposed. However, I recognise that we cannot simply ignore the EU or bluntly state to leave it (and thus collapse into nationalist solutions, a dead end), but instead we need to engage with the given playing field we have and organise the working class on a pan-European level for its own interests by fighting for radical democracy.
As for communists engaging with the given playing field, you are quite deluded if you think the European Union can be magically converted into a socialist union or that all the states in the current EU can become socialist states and magically join this magical union. On the whole, your statements are just plain delusional.

"...current EU, which indeed is an institution of the capitalist class" is a redundant statement. Any EU can only be a capitalist union since a union of capitalist nation states can only be capitalist.

Not to mention once again, you speak for a non-existent working class movement and proclaim that "we" cannot ignore the EU. Do you even realise that you are just some individual on the internet claiming to speak for the entire working class of a continent?



It does exist, be it not as an independent force, but instead submitted to the interests of the system, herded by trade union and social-democratic bureaucrats. Against their bureaucratic methods and national scope, communists should propose a democratic platform and linkup on an international level, independently of the state.I was under the impression that the current social democratic bureaucrats who control the unions and parties are in fact democrats. Your so-called democratic platform (for your imaginary movement) already exists in the real world. Are you suggesting that the current European system is not democratic? If so, what is it, fascist? Monarchic?

[Q]

As far as communists engaging with the given playing field, you are quite deluded if you think the European Union can be magically converted into a socialist union or that all the states in the current EU can become socialist states and magically join this magical union. On the whole, your statements are just plain delusional.
Okay bro. Once again you're making up arguments I never stated.


I was under the impression that the current social democratic bureaucrats who control the unions and parties are in fact democrats. Your so-called democratic platform (for your imaginary movement) already exists in the real world. Are you suggesting that current European system is not democratic? If so, what is it, fascist?

I'm starting to wonder who of us is living in a fairy tale. In my experience I do not live in a society where the people (the Greek word for it is dêmos) are in power (Greek: kratos).

[promethean]

Okay bro. Once again you're making up arguments I never stated.



I'm starting to wonder who of us is living in a fairy tale. In my experience I do not live in a society where the people (the Greek word for it is dêmos) are in power (Greek: kratos).
I don't think I made up any of your arguments. Anyone reading your posts can decide for themselves if I made up your arguments.

However, I suggest you pick up a history book. Most European states had completed their democratic transitions from monarchism and feudalism by the 19th century. If you think the European Union is not composed of democratic states, then what are they? Fascist? Monarchic?

[IndependentCitizen]

If the European Union is in some way, socialist. I'm Bob Marley's boyfriend.

[Q]

I don't think I made up any of your arguments. Anyone reading your posts can decide for themselves if I made up your arguments.
I'm hoping for some better reading abilities from most other users.


However, I suggest you pick up a history book. Most European states had completed their democratic transitions from monarchism and feudalism by the 19th century. If you think the European Union is not composed of democratic states, then what are they? Fascist? Monarchic?
In contrast to you I do not regard parliamentary systems to be democratic at all. I doubt many here do. In fact, I think you're one of the very few around here that claim such a thing.

And yes, quite a few EU memberstates are still monarchies, be it that they also combine this with a parliamentary system.

[Nox]

I'll have to look up exactly what socialism is.

Yes you fucking will.

Europe is nowhere near Socialist.

[socialistjustin]

He said he was still learning about socialism and such. When I was 16 I thought Bill O'Reilly was an anarchist because I put libertarianism in with anarchism. Like another user said, we all start somewhere.

[Aurora]

Yes you fucking will.

Europe is nowhere near Socialist.

No need to be an ass about it, it's an increasingly common misconception and most people aren't as willing as the OP to learn what socialism actually is.

[robbo203]

don't worry mate we all started somewhere. How much have you read so far? If you haven't already I'd start with the manifesto of the communist party http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/
and the principles of communism
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm
and keep reading Marx before you move on to anyone else. We're supposed to be Marxists after all better to get a good understanding of him before you read people who added to his work. And remember there's no such thing as a stupid question only stupid answers ;)


I would also recommend:


"Wage Labour and Capital" http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/index.htm

and

"Value, Price and Profit"
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/value-price-profit/

cheers

R

[Yuppie Grinder]

Socialism is common ownership of the means of economic production and distrubution, a neccesary step towards communism. In the EU the means of economic production and distribution are privately owned. The EU is capitalistic. This is not at all hard to understand.

[SocialistTommy]

The EU....Socialist ? just like Malcom X was Aryan -_-

[promethean]

I'm hoping for some better reading abilities from most other users.It is not clear where I made up your arguments. Perhaps, you can explain?


In contrast to you I do not regard parliamentary systems to be democratic at all. I doubt many here do. In fact, I think you're one of the very few around here that claim such a thing.It depends on what you mean by democracy. If you claim parliamentary systems are not democratic systems, the burden of proof is on you to prove why they are not. Let me ask you a third time: If it the current states in EU are not democratic states, what are they? Are they monarchies? Are they fascist states?


And yes, quite a few EU memberstates are still monarchies, be it that they also combine this with a parliamentary system.That makes them something other than democracies? If you think getting rid of the nominal monarchs of Europe will magically transform those countries into "democracies" that are in any way different from the existing ones, once again you must be completely deluded. It seems the "demands" of the leadership of your imaginary working class movement are suspiciously similar to those made by bourgeois republicans. One can only imagine the true working class liberation that will occur when David Cameron is able to preside over the British government after the nasty monarch Queen Elizabeth II has been deposed.:rolleyes:

[Die Neue Zeit]

It depends on what you mean by democracy. If you claim parliamentary systems are not democratic systems, the burden of proof is on you to prove why they are not. Let me ask you a third time: If it the current states in EU are not democratic states, what are they? Are they monarchies? Are they fascist states?

Um, oligarchies? Plutocracies? :rolleyes:

[Blake's Baby]

As the USA has a minimum wage and for instance Germany doesn't, I'm beginning to wonder if the USA's socialism mighht be a transitional stage to communism that the capitalist states of Europe could emulate. Any thoughts, comrades?

I think I need to put one of these in too: :cool:

[promethean]

Um, oligarchies? Plutocracies? :rolleyes:From a liberal standpoint maybe. From a Marxist standpoint, they are dictatorships of the bourgeoisie in the form of democratic regimes.

[Die Neue Zeit]

From a liberal standpoint maybe. From a Marxist standpoint, they are dictatorships of the bourgeoisie in the form of democratic regimes.

They are dictatorships of the bourgeoisie in the form of rule-of-law constitutionalism. "Democracy" /= rule-of-law constitutionalism.

[Jennifer]

As the USA has a minimum wage and for instance Germany doesn't, I'm beginning to wonder if the USA's socialism mighht be a transitional stage to communism that the capitalist states of Europe could emulate. Any thoughts, comrades?

I think I need to put one of these in too: :cool:


Funny though that in Germany many of the lower wage jobs still make more than their counterparts here in the US. I think that if anything the US should emulate some European countries more, because both the the US and European countries are captalist, only many European countries have a stronger social net than the US by far. Is this ideal? Hell no. But I'm for alleviating suffering wherever, whenever possible. (:

[promethean]

They are dictatorships of the bourgeoisie in the form of rule-of-law constitutionalism. "Democracy" /= rule-of-law constitutionalism.
This is just splitting hairs over constitutionalism and democracy. As usual, you have no any idea of what you are talking about (big surprise!). It is the task of bourgeois liberals to make up slogans calling for European states to become more "democratic". Irrespective of how democratic these states are, they remain under the rule of the capitalist class.

[Blake's Baby]

Funny though that in Germany many of the lower wage jobs still make more than their counterparts here in the US. I think that if anything the US should emulate some European countries more, because both the the US and European countries are captalist, only many European countries have a stronger social net than the US by far. Is this ideal? Hell no. But I'm for alleviating suffering wherever, whenever possible. (:

The whole premise of this thread is that someone from the US believes that the US shold emulate Europe, and a load of people of Europe have said, 'no, don't, Europe's shit'. I just did it a little more humorously than most, pointing out the ridiculousness of thinking that European systems were at all progressive.

However, you've utterly failed to get the joke. It must because I'm shit at telling jokes.

Please please please, believe the Europeans when we say 'Europe is shit'. Perhaps though this is just another example of 'the whip is always greener in the other man's cage' or something.

Europe is shit. I might not have mentioned that.

[robbo203]

Socialism is common ownership of the means of economic production and distrubution, a neccesary step towards communism. .

Thats also what communism means - traditionally just another name for socialism

[Crux]

The fact that it supports imperialism, engages in neo-imperialism, and so on.

Read up on my posts on the Greeks and you will see the economic imperialism. Here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/greek-prime-minister-t163917/index.html)

And yes, you need to educate yourself on Socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism), and the difference between it and Social Democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy)(or a welfare state) which is a bourgeois system of capitalism with worker appeasing policy
Which ought to make one question the IMT's present policy of intervention in the social democratic parties.

But anyway, no, as if it hasn't been pointed out before, th European Union in itself is a project fo the european big bussiness."Free trade" and walls against immigrants abound, something I think an american might be quite familiar with.

[Jennifer]

The whole premise of this thread is that someone from the US believes that the US shold emulate Europe, and a load of people of Europe have said, 'no, don't, Europe's shit'. I just did it a little more humorously than most, pointing out the ridiculousness of thinking that European systems were at all progressive.

However, you've utterly failed to get the joke. It must because I'm shit at telling jokes.

Please please please, believe the Europeans when we say 'Europe is shit'. Perhaps though this is just another example of 'the whip is always greener in the other man's cage' or something.

Europe is shit. I might not have mentioned that.

Yeah, when I read your post again after replying I realised the joke that was somehow weaved in there, ha. I didn't bother apologising for my reply in this thread; obviously I missed that train. I don't doubt Europe is shit...it just seemed less shitty than the US when I lived over there. Sayin'.

[mrmikhail]

Which ought to make one question the IMT's present policy of intervention in the social democratic parties.

But anyway, no, as if it hasn't been pointed out before, th European Union in itself is a project fo the european big bussiness."Free trade" and walls against immigrants abound, something I think an american might be quite familiar with.

The idea is to convert from within, the tactic of the french turn, or entryism. But in america the IMT does not participate in intervening in any political parties, it maintains a strict independent organisation, and calls for unions for form a mass party of labour.


but on another note, I have nothing against the CWI and honestly would rather reconcile than continue the sectarianism between us.

[The Old Man from Scene 24]

Yes you fucking will.

Europe is nowhere near Socialist.

If all you're going to do is be hostile and swear at me, the don't respond to my posts.