Armistice Day - The Left's Position?

[00000000000]

Observed the mandatory 2 minutes silence at 11am today, during it I wondered what the leftist attitude to such traditions is?
I know the general consensus is one of pacifism or at least opposition to imperialist wars both past and present. But is here anything to be said for observing silence in the memory of all those that have died fighting in these wars? Is a custom you would observe? If not, why not?

Your thoughts comrades

[mrmikhail]

Considering that most who died in WWI were conscripts, I would have to say that Armistice Day should be considered a time of remembrance of them, as people, regardless of which side of the war they fought on. It should be to remember how their lives were sacrificed over petty Imperialist arguments and agreements and their memory should be kept alive as a warning of what Imperialism can lead to.

I have studied WWI a great deal and do personally observe the memory of those who's lives were thrown away for virtually nothing at all.

[magicme]

Leftist positions on armistice day vary. Some people see participation in the 'poppy cult' as glorifying war and a sure sign of reactionary sympathies, some see it as a good thing that the victims of war are remembered but worry about the use the day is put to by the warmongers in garnering support for their murderous adventures and some see it as a non-partisan day for remembering the dead.

One of the few times I can recall a leftist anti-war position (i.e. war sucks and it's generally a way for rich people to keep the common man down) being sympathetically represented on the mainstream media in the UK was when a First World War veteran said this on Armistice Day a few years ago. The commentators didn't have the gall to criticise a man who'd experienced the pure horror of mass war so Armistice Day can be a good thing. Also, it probably helps defuse the myth that war isn't Hell as is promoted by video games and films.

It's also a generational thing. People who lost friends or family in the wars, or were involved themselves, see it as a day to remember their personal losses so I completely fail to understand why stepping on their toes could possibly aid leftist groups in building support. Remember and respect the fallen of all the so-called nations while hating the bourgoise wars seems a more sensible position to me, but that's just my opinion.

[Smyg]

Haven't heard of it before.

[mrmikhail]

Haven't heard of it before.

Seriously? never heard of the day the armistice that effectively ended World War I was signed? :confused:

[mrmikhail]

Leftist positions on armistice day vary. Some people see participation in the 'poppy cult' as glorifying war and a sure sign of reactionary sympathies, some see it as a good thing that the victims of war are remembered but worry about the use the day is put to by the warmongers in garnering support for their murderous adventures and some see it as a non-partisan day for remembering the dead.


I cannot see how participating with the Poppy wearing as promoting war, it was used to mark the graves of fallen comrades by fellow soldiers in the trenches during the war...I gotta say that has to be the best argument against a war there is, comrades falling for a meaningless cause and so on....

[Smyg]

Seriously? never heard of the day the armistice that effectively ended World War I was signed? :confused:

We didn't fight in that war, and there isn't much knowledge or interest in it.

[mrmikhail]

We didn't fight in that war, and there isn't much knowledge or interest in it.

Regardless of fighting in it or not, it was the most important war in the history of the modern world. It, or the treaty ending it at least, set out it's continuation as WW2 and gave us the borders (and the conflicts that come with them) of today, gave us the Russian Revolution, caused the creation of fascism....I mean...really?

[Fopeos]

Here in the states, Armistice day has been co-opted by the ultra-nationalistic 'veteran's day'. People seem to have forgotten the first inter-imperialist slaughter. There's lots of flag waving and "thank a vet for your freedom" nonsense. I will be observing Armistice day in memory of the millions of workers sacrificed on the altar of Empire.

[Smyg]

Regardless of fighting in it or not, it was the most important war in the history of the modern world. It, or the treaty ending it at least, set out it's continuation as WW2 and gave us the borders (and the conflicts that come with them) of today, gave us the Russian Revolution, caused the creation of fascism....I mean...really?

Hey, I'm just explaining why it is unheard of in Sweden, not saying it's historically unimportant.

[El Louton]

Surely we should take part as we all fought against Nazis.

[Smyg]

Nazis? What Nazis?

[hatzel]

I cannot see how participating with the Poppy wearing as promoting war, it was used to mark the graves of fallen comrades by fellow soldiers in the trenches during the war...I gotta say that has to be the best argument against a war there is, comrades falling for a meaningless cause and so on....

You'd think that, wouldn't you? Until you realise that it's always linking in with that McCrae poem, which throws us a real curveball at the start of the third stanza:


In Flanders fields the poppies blow Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

It's not an "oh no, people are dying, let's make peace" kind of affair. It's more of an "oh no, people are dying, let's get our revenge!!!" sort of symbol. It's a glorification of war kind of symbol. A symbol which says "let's remember the heroes," that being a word bandied about a lot. And how many young men and women do you think decide to join the army under this illusion that they will achieve heroism, the adulation of the whole country? Remember: there aren't any politicians out on the front line. There aren't CEO's of oil companies fighting over this territory or that territory. They need people, very often working people, to offer themselves up for it, to be sent out to this or that far-off country to fight and die for interests which most definitely aren't their own. And seeing an entire country come to a standstill, honouring those 'heroes' out in Afghanistan and elsewhere...well, I'm sure it goes some way to convincing these people that there is honour in the life of a soldier, that even if they lose their lives, the next November all their compatriots will remember what a glorious and pure and brave soul they were.

Of course it's a day which can be coopted by anti-war movements. The PPU's white poppy is a perfect example of this, seizing on the sentiment of the time, the memory of the loss of life, to say "well, let's not let this kind of stuff happen again." The red poppy, however, makes no such demand. The red poppy isn't just linked to those who were conscripted to fight in the world wars (people who perhaps should be remembered, inasmuch as they were forced into battle, with the vast majority so dumbfounded that they were totally unwilling to ever pull the trigger), but is linked to those giving their lives today, people who choose to earn their living killing people in the name of imperialism and the like, and cannot be detached from this. The red poppy is tied in with everything else that comes on Remembrance Day. It's tied up with the charity singles, 'Help for Heroes' (oh, there's that word again), with the faces of soldiers out in the desert right now, held up as noble servants of their country, giving their lives in the protection of others. Apparently. It doesn't call for the halting of the war machine, but for the honouring of those so-called 'heroes' who ensure that it can keep rolling on unabated.

There's a quotation which may prove pertinent: "the only way to abolish war is to make peace heroic." Of course that's a bit of a simplistic approach to to whole issue, but if soldiers were considered by society to be a shameful profession, rather than the domain of heroes, I can guarantee you that a lot fewer people would be lugging themselves down to the recruitment office. Or whatever it is people do when they want to join the army. And good luck to the ruling elites of the world waging wars without any troops to do it for them.

(And all this doesn't even mention the fact that if the State are going to effectively brainwash people into enrolling, under the illusion that it is a good and noble action, so that they can then be sent half way round the world to have bits blown off them, the State should be the ones coughing up the cash they need to aid their recovery, their medical care and the help they need. Perhaps they could take it out of the war budget, I don't know. Either way, it shouldn't have to fall on us putting our quids in collection boxes or anything like that, to right the wrongs of the State...)

[Tommy4ever]

I don't see a single reason not to observe it.

[Commissar Rykov]

Here in the states, Armistice day has been co-opted by the ultra-nationalistic 'veteran's day'. People seem to have forgotten the first inter-imperialist slaughter. There's lots of flag waving and "thank a vet for your freedom" nonsense. I will be observing Armistice day in memory of the millions of workers sacrificed on the altar of Empire.
It has become one giant circlejerk in the States. All the shit about Imperial Wars have given me freedom makes my head hurt and is extremely embarrassing because it is just so fucking stupid. How has killing children, women and men in places like Grenada, Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq, and a plethora of other countries we conduct special operations in helped me in the slightest? Nor do I see how it enhances my freedom in any other way other than allowing our nation to lord it over another.

It also means certain channels are going to be running war movies through the whole day as well. Meh we have completely lost the point of this day about remembering the dead and instead it is a nationalist ritual to rile up people in hatred of their fellow humanbeings.

[MustCrushCapitalism]

As said above, "Veterans Day" is the equivalent here, and is just another ultranationalist holiday where festivities include paying regards to fallen servicemen, a moment of silence, invading middle eastern countries with oil, waving the American flag around, deposing democratically elected left-leaning world leaders, and parades.

[Bronco]

I respect the two minutes silence, because it wasn't the soldiers fault that they were sent in their thousands to be slaughtered.

I don't wear the red poppy though, I don't like that it's come to represent militarism and is used to legitimise current conflicts in Afghanistan and elsewhere, and has begun to accompany the Sun's "Our Boys" rhetoric and this attitude that if you don't support the armed forces then you deserve to be vilified, and ostracised. I thought about wearing a white poppy this year, and I might still do so come Sunday, it seems to be a more appropriate symbol of the grief that war causes.

[IndependentCitizen]

I'll hold silence to remember, war is hell. But I don't do it just for British soldiers, but every victim of war regardless if they were enemy or not. I don't wear a poppy, because I believe it glorifies war. But holding silence isn't a glorification, it's remembering those who have either died because their empire forced them to fight, or they fought against Nazism in WW2.

[IndependentCitizen]

I respect the two minutes silence, because it wasn't the soldiers fault that they were sent in their thousands to be slaughtered.

I don't wear the red poppy though, I don't like that it's come to represent militarism and is used to legitimise current conflicts in Afghanistan and elsewhere, and has begun to accompany the Sun's "Our Boys" rhetoric and this attitude that if you don't support the armed forces then you deserve to be vilified, and ostracised. I thought about wearing a white poppy this year, and I might still do so come Sunday, it seems to be a more appropriate symbol of the grief that war causes.
I've seen a few veterans walking around my hometown with their medals and the white poppy. I've never thought of stopping and asking for their opinion on the read one. But I respect them for wearing the white poppy, as it's more remembering everyone, and pursuing peace.

[Cencus]

90%+ of folks who have died in the wars of the last century are just ordinary working class lads & lassies who were even constripted or joined up as it seemed the least worst option; dole, mind numbing shite factory job or the army. I see nowt wrong in giving a minutes silence to their memories. Having said that a lot of the rememberance day stuff in this country reeks of jingoism & nationalism so I tend to avoid any of the public services like the plague.

[Hit The North]

WW1 was a massive disaster visited upon the international working class by imperialism. We should remember it with anger and indignation, not sentiment. Red poppies or red flags, both are symbolically drenched with the spilled blood of the working class.

[Manic Impressive]

Yesterday a small boy in a navy uniform approached me in the street he said "excuse me mister, would you like to buy a poppy?" I looked into his eyes all aglow with hope and expectancy that I would fulfil my role as a decent subject of the Queen and purchase a poppy. I leaned forward a little so we were almost at eye level and replied "fuck naw I ain't buying your imperialist shit brah get the fuck outta here" Watching that hope drain from his eyes and the smile slowly disappear from his lips was very satisfying a release of the hostility I feel towards all the bull shit we're bombarded with every day.

I fucking hate poppy day I fucking hate it. It's not just about WW1 or WW2 where people were conscripted. Today it's about the fucking scum killing fellow workers in the middle east, not to mention all the other horrific wars the British army have taken part in since. The money raised goes to helping these class traitors. Fuck 'em. And if any of the conscripts from WW1 were alive I'd say the same. Conscientiously objecting is the only correct position. It's a glorification of the armed forces to make them feel special about what they do. I won't be part of it. I want them all to feel extremely shitty and completely unappreciated for what they do.

I did however observe over a 2 minute silence at 11 am as I was asleep.

[tir1944]

The real tragedy of WW1 is the behavior of supposedly "socialist" parties.
One of the biggest betrayals in history.

[jake williams]

Obviously the victims of major 20th century wars have been almost entirely civilians and conscripts; working class people with no say or choice in the matter, something I should hope everyone on the left understands. It's not appropriate but obligatory that we recognize this and remember it. If Remembrance Day was a solemn recognition of the utter atrocity of war, and an annual pact to never again fight such a war, I can't think of anything wrong with that.

Except that the imperialist countries have been engaged in constant war and violence between and since World Wars I & II. In Canada the jingoist fanatics who run the military celebrations today make a very clear point of saying that our escapades weren't just glorious in those particular wars of Europe, but that our military interventions CONTINUE to be glorious the world round, with specific emphasis on Korea (to remind everyone that Communism is evil) and Afghanistan (to remind everyone that Muslims are evil/to remind everyone that we're still fighting glorious wars right fucking now).

In such a context, it's a repugnant state-sponsored jingoist celebration of imperialist war.

[tir1944]

Obviously the victims of major 20th century wars have been almost entirely civilians and conscripts; working class people with no say or choice in the matter, something I should hope everyone on the left understands.
Really? So how come only a few thousand (if not less) German soldiers deserted?
If Fritz Reis,the three deserters on 21 June' 41 and many Italians(in Yugoslavia at least) could, how come others couldn't?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lyZ9WntBng

[Manic Impressive]

except that they did have a choice. They could have said no before they left. It's far more sensible to do that when out on the battle field because if you say no there as thousands did, you get shot by your fellow noble conscripts.

But to be clear if it was just about remembering WW1 as an imperialist war and vowing never to let it happen again I wouldn't have a problem with it.

[Smyg]

I seem to remember a massacre in a Polish-Jewish village, where the perpetrators were all given the option to opt out. Only a dozen or something such did, out of several hundred. It was used as an example when I took psychology, I believe.

[Bronco]

except that they did have a choice. They could have said no before they left. It's far more sensible to do that when out on the battle field because if you say no there as thousands did, you get shot by your fellow noble conscripts.

But to be clear if it was just about remembering WW1 as an imperialist war and vowing never to let it happen again I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I think your average worker could be forgiven for thinking it was a good idea to enlist during WWI, the propaganda was very effective at imposing a sense of obligation on people to fight and it was glorified and romanticised so much that it was often seen as an adventure, one which would be over by Christmas and one where they would actually get a decent meal for once.

And resisting conscription.. that was met with pretty severe punishment as well, along with being ostracised from society, there would have been unbelievable pressure to sign up in both WWI & WWII

[bricolage]

That Bordiga quote that's in Leo's signature.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I will observe Armistice Day. WW1, along with WW2, was the greatest tragedy to befall the international working class, just in the sheer amount of lives needlessly wasted in the trenches and in no man's land.

[rednordman]

What is everyone's opinion of those who use armistice day and the use of poppy's as a spearhead of British nationalism? because sadly here in the UK, its all I have seen. What makes it even worse is how they all seem to take this mock 'defiance' approach against supposed people who are offended by the poppies, even though i know of no such people, apart from small groups of religious extremists. The way they have gone on about this, you would think we are about to get invaded or something.

[ColonelCossack]

I think white poppies should be more widely available...

[rednordman]

I think white poppies should be more widely available...white poppies? all i know of is red. what does the white signify?

[tir1944]

Never heard of white poppies.

[bricolage]

The glorification of war, the elevation of British life over all else, the implicit support for current military endevours, the rank hypocrisy of politicians wearing poppies whilst bombing countries halfway across the world... I don't wear a poppy.

I remember war though, the millions sent to die for geopolitical interests and the accumulation of capital, my ancestors burning in the death camps, Britain fighting for freedom and democracy whilst butchering countless across her empire, America fighting for freedom and democracy whilst putting Japanese in camps, lynching blacks and locking up communists, the dead in Iraq, Afghanistan, Ireland and so on.

I remember those that broke through the capitulation of social democracy in 1914 and refused to serve for national interests, people like Martin Widelin or Fausto Atti who argued for class politics right throughout the carnage of WW2 and all the draft dodgers throughout history.

That Bordiga quote again;
"In the name of a greater civilization, we curse those who for the sake of their ambitious dreams, brought about the massacre of so many young lives. No matter how brutal the crime, you will always get glorification of its heroism and tradition from the eunuchs of bourgeois culture." - Amadeo Bordiga

[bricolage]

white poppies? all i know of is red. what does the white signify?
It signifies pacifism.
They were quite good at pissing off Thatcher though I believe.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

What is everyone's opinion of those who use armistice day and the use of poppy's as a spearhead of British nationalism? because sadly here in the UK, its all I have seen. What makes it even worse is how they all seem to take this mock 'defiance' approach against supposed people who are offended by the poppies, even though i know of no such people, apart from small groups of religious extremists. The way they have gone on about this, you would think we are about to get invaded or something.

Really? Outside of the usual establishment/right-wing circles, i've not seen most people do anything but pay their respects. Certainly, most people i've seen don't seem to be jumping onto any political bandwagon.

Besides, even if certain groups/institutions are trying to use the poppy and Armistice Day to revive British nationalism/the revenge attitude, that doesn't mean they've got the true meaning of the day and the poppy. Fuck them, they're wrong, we're right.

[rednordman]

Really? Outside of the usual establishment/right-wing circles, i've not seen most people do anything but pay their respects. Certainly, most people i've seen don't seem to be jumping onto any political bandwagon.

Besides, even if certain groups/institutions are trying to use the poppy and Armistice Day to revive British nationalism/the revenge attitude, that doesn't mean they've got the true meaning of the day and the poppy. Fuck them, they're wrong, we're right.Its strange to say as it really is all that i have seen, but to be fair, its mainly from a young-ish demographic (alias Facebook). Maybe its just my circle or friends and acquaintances. This also has not been helped much by FIFA by the way...so perhaps that says it all.

[Manic Impressive]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WZ-Uje1Hw9I/TNcoX2pIKaI/AAAAAAAAEE8/JHpv0H3ckFI/s1600/Celtic+no+Poppies.jpg

[Kadir Ateş]

Observed the mandatory 2 minutes silence at 11am today, during it I wondered what the leftist attitude to such traditions is?
I know the general consensus is one of pacifism or at least opposition to imperialist wars both past and present. But is here anything to be said for observing silence in the memory of all those that have died fighting in these wars? Is a custom you would observe? If not, why not?

Your thoughts comrades

The capitalists give you a designated day to "Remember" your fallen. I think we should start from that position, and wonder why.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

If the RBL were openly anti-war and they used donations to help alleviate the suffering of both ex-military and all those who suffer under the boot of our military, then yeah, I might wear a poppy. But they aren't, they don't even try. All the RBL does is glorify the military, drum up nationalism and turn remembering the war dead into bastardised hero-worship. The 'war to end all wars' is what caused the RBL and poppy to come about in the first place, this sentiment seems to have been lost to time.

[Tifosi]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WZ-Uje1Hw9I/TNcoX2pIKaI/AAAAAAAAEE8/JHpv0H3ckFI/s1600/Celtic+no+Poppies.jpg

Haha, Spellcheck CSC:p

[El Louton]

I remember the Second World War and maybe the WW1. The rest were simply for economic imperialist gains where sadly thousands of innocent young men and women lost their lives. But I can't stand patriotism and nationalism so I would buy a white poppy, if I could afford it.

[Triple A]

A great day for trolling, indeed.