1930's Moscow in colour, and other historical beauties

[Smyg]

http://www.howtobearetronaut.com/2011/11/colourised-photographs-of-moscow-1931/

:tt1: I love old photographs, and damn Moscow was beautiful. There's so much historical material to go through.

[Iron Felix]

Was? You asshole. My city is the most beautiful in the world.

[Yugo45]

Stalin was an asshole for destroying all of those historical buildings for no good reason.

Just saying.

[Smyg]

Was? You asshole. My city is the most beautiful in the world.

I haven't visited Moscow yet, so I'll have to take your word for it. :D

[eyeheartlenin]

Stalin was an asshole for destroying all of those historical buildings for no good reason.

Just saying.

Thanks to Smyg for the link to the old photos!

A couple of the pictures were of the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, which was blown up under Stalin, and what was, reputedly, the world's largest swimming pool was then built on the site, IIRC.

Now the Cathedral has been rebuilt, and looks just like the old photos of the original, except brighter, so not all of the Stalin-era cultural destruction was final, which is nice.

I always wondered what GUM, the state department store, looked like; when I was studying Russian in college, GUM was mentioned in a dialogue we had to memorize.

[tir1944]

Stalin was an asshole for destroying all of those historical buildings for no good reason.
What?
How many did "he" destroy,except for Christ the Savior Catedral?

[Zukunftsmusik]

Stalin was an asshole for destroying all of those historical buildings for no good reason.

Just saying.

Fuck the old buidlings! It's the new ones that are interesting! Like the workers canteen No. 1. I mean - just look at that!

Or the House of Culture of the 'Kauchuk' factory.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Was? You asshole. My city is the most beautiful in the world.

All those new ugly things built since the fall are starting to blight the image, though. Those horrible abomination housing the new rich elites, such monstrous and blasphemous things they are, like enormous ugly acnes ruining the urban landscape. And don't forget that Moscow City development, that thing needs to be blown up.

[Yugo45]

What?
How many did "he" destroy,except for Christ the Savior Catedral?

From the list:
Paraskeva Pyatnitsa church
The Vladimir Gate
Iversky gate
Sukharev Tower
Christ the Savior Cathedral

[scarletghoul]

boo hoo the nasty communists knocked down a church oh no

[Nox]

That Worker's Club and the Canteen look fucking amazing!

[La Comédie Noire]

One of the captions read:


The CUM supermarket

I wonder what they sold there?

[khad]

Stalin was an asshole for destroying all of those historical buildings for no good reason.

Just saying.
He had every reason.

[Smyg]

Soviet Brutalist Buildings, 1970-1990, by Frédéric Chaubin (http://www.howtobearetronaut.com/2011/11/soviet-brutalist-buildings-by-frederic-chaubin/)

Soviet bus stops (http://www.howtobearetronaut.com/2011/10/soviet-bus-stops/)

:wub: Oh the architecture.

[Zealot]

Bourgeois buildings built by the old ruling class were dynamited by Stalin! boo fucking hoo.

[Zealot]

God forbid that when the revolution comes the English ever dynamite Buckingham Palace, cuz like, it's a cultural icon!

[Smyg]

Yes, let's destroy everything ever made by people we don't like, regardless of historical value.

[Revolutionair]

I like how this thread exemplifies the stupidity of the average ML.

[Yugo45]

He had every reason.

Maybe the church (though I wouldn't justify that either. It gives us bad press ;D) But the Sukharev Tower for example.. It was a Moscow landmark, and it did no bad to anyone. Didn't have any religious bullshit tied to it, etc. It was just a building. A pretty looking building with a lot of historical value. And he ordered it to be destroyed.. For bullshit reasons.

Maybe I'm just overreacting because in the Yugoslav Wars, my city's landmarks were bombarded and destroyed, and tbh that hurts a lot. I dunno.


Bourgeois buildings built by the old ruling class were dynamited by Stalin! boo fucking hoo.

Just because a building was built in that period of time, it doesn't make it "bourgeois".. Bourgeois buildings.. lol.. nonsense.

[khad]

Maybe I'm just overreacting because in the Yugoslav Wars, my city's landmarks were bombarded and destroyed, and tbh that hurts a lot. I dunno.
Yes, you are overreacting.

After the Berlin Castle got bombarded to shit during the war, East Germany chose not to rebuild it but to build the civic center of the nation, the Palace of the Republic, where it once stood.

After reunification, West German capitalists demolished the Palace of the Republic and replaced it with a replica of the feudal Berlin castle. The steel from the civic center was sold to Dubai wahhabis for the construction of the latest monument to their capitalist decadence, that half-mile high skyscraper.

Make no mistake. You demolish the edifices of bourgeois civilization or they will do the same to you and eat your bones.

I see no moral quandary in that.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

But the Sukharev Tower for example.. It was a Moscow landmark, and it did no bad to anyone. Didn't have any religious bullshit tied to it, etc. It was just a building.


From wikipedia:


The Sukharev Tower (Сухарева башня) was one of the best known landmarks and symbols of Moscow until its destruction by the Soviet authorities in 1934. The tower was built in the Moscow baroque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_baroque) style at the intersection of the Garden Ring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_Ring) with the Sretenka street in 1692-1695.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukharev_Tower#cite_note-0)
Tsar Peter the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_I_of_Russia) ordered the construction of the tower to commemorate his triumph over his sister Sofia. The tower was named in honor of L. P. Sukharev whose regiment of streltsy had supported Peter.

I think the city-gates that were demolished were so to make way for expanded bridge and road approaches, also.


Just because a building was built in that period of time, it doesn't make it "bourgeois".. Bourgeois buildings.. lol.. nonsense.

Of course there is no such thing as a "bourgeois building", literally speaking. But buildings can be symbols and reminders. The churches serve bourgeois interests - of course it can sometimes be preferable that they be made into museums rather than demolished entirely, but not every single one should be kept, and I think a public swimming pool is preferable to a (rather ugly) Church.

[khad]

I think a public swimming pool is preferable to a (rather ugly) Church.
Of course it is. Think of the health benefits.

[Zealot]

Just because a building was built in that period of time, it doesn't make it "bourgeois".. Bourgeois buildings.. lol.. nonsense.

Yes, as in, a symbol of their dominance or an institution which keeps them in power (church). This is what I meant.

[tir1944]

It was supposed to be an amazing building,Palace of the Soviets but it was never finished so the foundations were converted into a big swimming pool...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_the_Soviets

[Iron Felix]

All those new ugly things built since the fall are starting to blight the image, though. Those horrible abomination housing the new rich elites, such monstrous and blasphemous things they are, like enormous ugly acnes ruining the urban landscape. And don't forget that Moscow City development, that thing needs to be blown up.
The new buildings are like card-houses. Nothing to worry about.

[Triple A]

When I saw this title I knew there would be stupid stalinist answers.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

The church which has been rebuilt is ugly as hell. The swimming pool wasn't aesthetically very much but at least it had use value.

As an aside, what do people think of MGU and the five (I think) other Lomonnosov "Stalin gothic" buildings in MOCKBA? I rather like them, although the few times they are mentioned in the US media its always derisively.

http://picturesofmoscow.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/lomonosov-moscow-state-university.jpg

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://picturesofmoscow.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/lomonosov-moscow-state-university.jpg&imgrefurl=http://picturesofmoscow.com/2007/12/14/lomonosov-moscow-state-university/&h=450&w=600&sz=43&tbnid=OuwNmQvjD6AyNM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=122&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMoscow%2BState%2BUniversity%26tbm%3Di sch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=Moscow+State+University&docid=wpk7eWNq-vthcM&sa=X&ei=M5G9Tq6RLIHs0gHnw5zEBw&ved=0CGAQ9QEwBA&dur=1524

The Moscow subway is the best and most beautiful in the world, I think.The Boston T has to beamong the worst.

[El Louton]

Wow. That is amazing.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

The church which has been rebuilt is ugly as hell. The swimming pool wasn't aesthetically very much but at least it had use value.

As an aside, what do people think of MGU and the five (I think) other Lomonnosov "Stalin gothic" buildings in MOCKBA? I rather like them, although the few times they are mentioned in the US media its always derisively.

There are seven original ones and a further single tower built recently that seeks to imitate them (rather blandly) and consists exclusively of luxury flats.

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/20765762.jpg

Nothing beats the eighties housing estates, though;
http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/26363633.jpg
Construction of an extension of the metro to Krylatskoe in 1989.

(http://v7.cache4.c.bigcache.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/36620897.jpg?redirect_counter=1)P44's in Ramenki (http://v7.cache4.c.bigcache.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/36620897.jpg?redirect_counter=1)

*drool*

[Susurrus]

They honestly look like Stalin was a fan of Gotham City and secretly planned to become batman.

[Искра]

Destroying old buildings is barbaric. You can allways give them better - proletarian - purpose. Destroying old churches is equal to destroying partisan monuments in 90's Croatia/Serbia.

Oh, and interesting thing. Did you know that Tito didn't destroy Wrangel's grave in Belgrade? I never understood why.

[tir1944]

The monuments were dedicated to the memory of Partisans,churches were dedicated to old reactionary lies.
Destroying "old buildings" isn't necessarily barbaric.

[Искра]

It is, because they represent historical development of our civilisation. It's like burning old books and trying to erase history.

Anyhow, would you destroy piramids? I quess you would.

[Ocean Seal]

The church which has been rebuilt is ugly as hell. The swimming pool wasn't aesthetically very much but at least it had use value.

As an aside, what do people think of MGU and the five (I think) other Lomonnosov "Stalin gothic" buildings in MOCKBA? I rather like them, although the few times they are mentioned in the US media its always derisively.

http://picturesofmoscow.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/lomonosov-moscow-state-university.jpg

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://picturesofmoscow.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/lomonosov-moscow-state-university.jpg&imgrefurl=http://picturesofmoscow.com/2007/12/14/lomonosov-moscow-state-university/&h=450&w=600&sz=43&tbnid=OuwNmQvjD6AyNM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=122&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMoscow%2BState%2BUniversity%26tbm%3Di sch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=Moscow+State+University&docid=wpk7eWNq-vthcM&sa=X&ei=M5G9Tq6RLIHs0gHnw5zEBw&ved=0CGAQ9QEwBA&dur=1524

The Moscow subway is the best and most beautiful in the world, I think.The Boston T has to beamong the worst.
Holy shit, yes. Closes at 1AM, sometimes earlier just for the fucking lulz (not actually for the lulz but one time it closed at 6PM and I had to walk all the way home from South Station--which was rather far.

[tir1944]

It is, because they represent historical development of our civilisation. It's like burning old books and trying to erase history. You said "old buildings".
This is also an "old building".
So you see that there has to be some criteria on what "old building" can and what building can't be demolished to make way for something better and something new.The Catedral of the Christ of Saviour was nice but it wasn't all that important so it was deemed that it should be demolished to make space for the Palace of Soviets.







http://www.gems-afghan.com/slidshow/slidsho10/oldnamakmandi.jpg


Anyhow, would you destroy piramids? I quess you would. No.

[Susurrus]

You said "old buildings".
This is also an "old building".
So you see that there has to be some criteria on what "old building" can and what building can't be demolished to make way for something better and something new.
http://www.gems-afghan.com/slidshow/slidsho10/oldnamakmandi.jpg


This old building deserves to be kept around longer than any church.

[Искра]

Tir1944 - cut the crap.

[tir1944]

No,you cut the crap.
You were obviously accusing the Soviet government of "barbarism",an accusation you based on empty demagoguery.
The USSR took care to protect important churches and other cultural objects (Lenin warned about this),but some less important ones got demolished to free up space for newer things.Hardly "barbarism".
:rolleyes:

[Искра]

Lenin was not Stalin. Lenin's government also gave great rights to women, but Stalin send the women where they belong - to kitchen.

Oh, I forgot that I should never question glorious leader, even when he's destroying historical old buildings. Good thing that he didn't demolish Kremlin, because that was czarist palace.

Ah, just continue with your hysterical bollocks and you'll reach 1200 posts and be blue :D

[eyeheartlenin]

The church which has been rebuilt is ugly as hell. The swimming pool wasn't aesthetically very much but at least it had use value. As an aside, what do people think of MGU and the five (I think) other Lomonnosov "Stalin gothic" buildings in MOCKBA? I rather like them, although the few times they are mentioned in the US media its always derisively....

I read somewhere that the style that Moscow State U is built in, is called "Stalinist Wedding Cake," which fits, I think. I actually think the building in the picture that Lenina put in her post, is very attractive.

I also read that the "world's largest swimming pool," for which a Moscow cathedral was dynamited, became a center for urban crime. I still think the cathedral is rather attractive.

The suggestion that has been made, that buildings should be destroyed, because they come from an earlier period, reminds me of the destruction of the very ancient (6th century, BCE) Buddhist sculptures, "the Buddhas of Bamiyan," in Afghanistan by the Taliban in 2001. Not a great precedent, I think.

[Susurrus]

I know that in Estonia they call it "Stalin's birthday cake" style.

[Blamelessman]

The reason it was so beautiful is the superior nordic racial blood of the RUS vikings. Try and build that city in the third world and it turns to shit. :laugh: cos the people are shit lol! Rob from each other, rape each other, burn each other. why not go there as a white and see what happens? hell i'm a socialst but u pukes are nuts! LOL!!!!!!!!! :laugh:

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I know that in Estonia they call it "Stalin's birthday cake" style.

Wedding-cake is a common style for tall-buildings to make them fit into a landscape that might have a more varied topography. It's derived from a Manhattan zoning law (to let in air to narrow streets with tall buildings, indentures were required a certain levels).

The general neo-gothic ornamentation of the MSU and the other seven sisters were very much inspired by the New York Municipal Building (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Municipal_Building).

[Smyg]

It is, because they represent historical development of our civilisation. It's like burning old books and trying to erase history.

Anyhow, would you destroy piramids? I quess you would.

I completely agree with Kontra.

[Tim Cornelis]

Are these Marxist-Leninists serious?

Those buildings were bourgeois and reactionary, therefore they ought to be destroyed? The idiocy of these people. Buildings do not have opinions, weird aye? Those were beautiful historical buildings.

What happened when the Taliban won in Afghanistan:

http://imablank.files.wordpress.com/2006/10/bamiyan.jpg

What would've happened if the Marxist-Leninists had won in Afghanistan:

http://imablank.files.wordpress.com/2006/10/bamiyan.jpg

What will happen if Marxist-Leninists come to power in Egypt:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Tpg2Ow32c9E/ThILlVyxCdI/AAAAAAAAAMc/7SZwtuffLyM/s1600/Abydos-destroyed.jpg

[Zostrianos]

Sadly, that's what might happen if islamists take power in Egypt. There's already imams who issued condemnations of ancient Egyptian culture, and have called for pharaonic statues to be covered in wax. It's disgusting.
And this whole thing about ancient relics being reactionary, stems from people confusing love for culture with nationalism. I can almost understand the destruction of churches (given the pernicious influence of organized Christianity in monarchies, capitalism, etc) but nothing justifies destroying historical relics just because you disagree with what their original creators intended. Destroying, for instance, the pyramids because one would find them reactionary, basically means you think their existence risks reawakening a desire for pharaonic rule among the people, and can bring the country back to what it was in pharaonic times - which is absolutely ridiculous


hell i'm a [national] socialst ...

Fixed that for ya. Now get a life you fascist prick

[Krano]

Workers Club and Workers Canteen look really amazing.

[Искра]

Sadly, that's what might happen if islamists take power in Egypt. There's already imams who issued condemnations of ancient Egyptian culture, and have called for pharaonic statues to be covered in wax. It's disgusting.
Are you aware of the facts that 'islamists' were on power in Egypt for few centuries? Also, are you aware of the fact that Egypt lives of tourism. No one will blow up pyramids.

[Smyg]

It all depends on which type of Islamists.

[CleverTitle]

Remember when this thread was about pictures of 1930's Moscow?

On the topic of old churches and the like, I prefer the idea of them being turned into museums and such. Better than demolition, I think.

[Smyg]

Active churches I'm no fan of, museums I absolutely adore. :D

[Zukunftsmusik]

On the topic of old churches and the like, I prefer the idea of them being turned into museums and such. Better than demolition, I think.

That would perhaps depend on what society would need. I hardly see reasons for turning every church into a museum, if people need other buildings for other purposes. But museums are cool, though.

[Fawkes]

I so wish they had built this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatlin%27s_Tower



You know there's little revolutionary about a country when neoclassicism becomes the predominant architectural style.

[tir1944]

What's wrong with neoclassicism?

[Fawkes]

What's wrong with neoclassicism?

Well, for one thing, it's not revolutionary. New ideas necessitate new modes of communication and organization. Attempting to recreate the styles prevalent in Ancient Rome and Greece isn't going to help.

Also, neoclassical architecture evokes strict authority, centralization, dominance, unapproachability, and simplicity. Nothing remotely revolutionary about that.

[ColonelCossack]

Well, for one thing, it's not revolutionary. New ideas necessitate new modes of communication and organization. Attempting to recreate the styles prevalent in Ancient Rome and Greece isn't going to help.

Also, neoclassical architecture evokes strict authority, centralization, dominance, unapproachability, and simplicity. Nothing remotely revolutionary about that.

But what if people like neo-classicism?

Not my thing, but still...

[Smyg]

Well, for one thing, it's not revolutionary. New ideas necessitate new modes of communication and organization. Attempting to recreate the styles prevalent in Ancient Rome and Greece isn't going to help.

Also, neoclassical architecture evokes strict authority, centralization, dominance, unapproachability, and simplicity. Nothing remotely revolutionary about that.

If the revolution doesn't allow me to chose whatever type of architectural design I like, then it is not my revolution.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Also, neoclassical architecture evokes strict authority, centralization, dominance, unapproachability, and simplicity. Nothing remotely revolutionary about that.

No, it doesn't conjure anything. Such things, like most things, do not exist outside of a collective understanding of them partly the result of culture, and trying to ascribe generic emotions to architectural designs as somehow a universal language is absolute rubbish.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Norra_Hammarbyhamnen_November_2011.jpg/800px-Norra_Hammarbyhamnen_November_2011.jpg

What do you think, for example, when you see this? Maybe you like it. I myself can hardly avoid vomiting at the sheer horror of this disgusting pastiche of past-styles rolled into a singular degenerate mess masquerading as "neo-functionalism"-- but apparently it is nice to some, since it is built; or you need to look no further than to everything built in London since, say 1990, to see the ultimate culmination of vapid capitalist architecture, yet at the very same time I do not think that even it represents some monolithic and universal language. The vile things vomited up by scum like Norman Foster are much worse and reactionary than any successful neo-classical design, I'd say, there's some true architectural crimes, right there.

[Veovis]

One of the captions read:



I wonder what they sold there?

I think it's supposed to be GUM, if I'm not mistaken.

[Arlekino]

Soviet Brutalist Buildings, 1970-1990, by Frédéric Chaubin (http://www.howtobearetronaut.com/2011/11/soviet-brutalist-buildings-by-frederic-chaubin/)

Soviet bus stops (http://www.howtobearetronaut.com/2011/10/soviet-bus-stops/)

:wub: Oh the architecture.
Oh yes we used in teens drinking vodka playing guitara in those buses stops.

[Arlekino]

Sorry for double post
Workers clubs was awesome. It was meetings kind of biurocratic speeches "how much production was made", it was lot of clapping hands and awards was going of in those times,extra money and some presents used give to workers, dancing, disco after that, lot of games. Oh no I am again nostalgic.

[Fawkes]

No, it doesn't conjure anything. Such things, like most things, do not exist outside of a collective understanding of them partly the result of culture, and trying to ascribe generic emotions to architectural designs as somehow a universal language is absolute rubbish.


Do swastikas conjure anything? What about fasces?

Of course there's no universal language of meaning, but that doesn't change the fact that within that "collective understanding" resulting from a specific culture there are commonly shared reactions (of varying degrees) to certain symbols. Maybe I'm arrogant or naive in saying this, but I find it doubtful that most Russians were completely ignorant of Roman and Greek history by the time the 1930s rolled around.



But what if people like neo-classicism?

Not my thing, but still...

If the revolution doesn't allow me to chose whatever type of architectural design I like, then it is not my revolution.
I agree with both of these statements. What I don't agree with is the efforts by the state in the 1930s to stamp out experimental and revolutionary art in favor of the tastes of the bourgeoisie. To this day, much of the art produced in the Soviet Union in the 20s maintains its relevance and the forward-thinking attitudes that spawned them -- can the same be said of the decades that followed?

[Kamchatka]

You can go through the old Russian Ogoniok illustrated magazines, which are shown for free on Google Books. They have a lot of beautiful pictures of daily Soviet-era life and amusing political cartoons.

[Veovis]

Bourgeois buildings built by the old ruling class were dynamited by Stalin! boo fucking hoo.

The ruling class didn't build those or any buildings. Workers did.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

The ruling class didn't build those or any buildings. Workers did.

On orders by and for use by, the ruling class. Point being?

[Veovis]

On orders by and for use by, the ruling class. Point being?

Point being is that it's rather petty to blow them up out of spite or ideological reasons.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Point being is that it's rather petty to blow them up out of spite or ideological reasons.

No, it isn't. Are you saying that prisons would be kept because they were built by the working class? (What wasn't, as it were?). Hideous ramparts of the past must go, monuments to oppression and reprehensible politics and policy have no justification for their existence. Some of them might have value to keep, but to keep all of them would be wasteful and pointless, and if they are ugly and in the way of a new important improved road or railway, then the argument is frankly simple; they should go.

[GatesofLenin]

Being an atheist myself, I say good for Stalin knocking down the damn churches!

[Psy]

Getting back to the topic of old Moscow photos here is a large collection of various old photos of the days of the USSR and its allies.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/