Are anti-capitalists envious people?

[Black_Rose]

Yes, this is a stupid thread (so constructing a substantive response would just waste your time)... and it was inspired from a thread from a reactionary message board (http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=614195).



For example:


No, not NECESSARILY do they hate the rich, but their arguments often focus on the wealth of other people, and reflect a covetous type of envy....and they conveniently http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif always seem to forget that it's a sin to covet other peoples money.

The fact is that capitalism is the best economic system we have thus far, and without capitalists making LOTS of money, there would be less taxes paid for social systems. If you're anti capitalist WITHOUT having another proven economic system that has shown it self to work better, then you're just complaining for the sake of complaining, and NOT offering a solution.



Capitalism in America can certainly be improved upon, but that's already been happening anyway as social programs have increased hugely in the last hundred years and have ALL been paid for by taxes that in one way or another originate or stem from capitalist activity. Capitalism has created a society in America that people risk their lives to get to, rather than risk their lives to escape from as in other countries.

From my own experience, the reactionary advocates of capitalism often use ad hominems, particularly the accusation of envy, against anyone who has discusses the flaws and injustices of a capitalist regime, and less commonly against capitalism itself, in general. The person making an argument against a particular capitalist regime is usually not a revolutionary leftist such as a Marxist-Leninist or anarchist, or Trotskyist, but merely a left-liberal or even a social democrat.Of course, this is indicative that the reactionary is bereft on any intellectual argument and can only levy petulant accusations.


More seriously, what drives you against capitalism?

For me, the reason why I consider myself a revolutionary lefty is because I understand that the capitalist class is not virtuous or particularly innovative technologically, and that reformist solutions are only ephemeral, since they can be revoked. The bourgeoisie and land lords need to lose their financial and political influence in order for the lives of the peasants and proletariat to improve.

[Revolution starts with U]

I really have no interst in material existence beyond friends, family, knowing myself, and the Universe. I would be a caveman, so to say, by choice (and will be this summer :thumbup1:).

Nevertheless, most people are, and for good reason. Materialism gives us long life spans and low amounts of baby deaths. It gives us advanced forms of entertainment, art, and discovery. There is no reason one class should gain the fruits of all this, while others are left to fight over the scraps. There is every reason to believe this creates a disuinion between people, a struggle between them, and is ultimately unsustainable for both us and the planet.

[Yuppie Grinder]

nah

[Black_Rose]

I really have no interst in material existence beyond friends, family, knowing myself, and the Universe. I would be a caveman, so to say, by choice (and will be this summer :thumbup1:).

Nevertheless, most people are, and for good reason. Materialism gives us long life spans and low amounts of baby deaths. It gives us advanced forms of entertainment, art, and discovery. There is no reason one class should gain the fruits of all this, while others are left to fight over the scraps. There is every reason to believe this creates a disuinion between people, a struggle between them, and is ultimately unsustainable for both us and the planet.

I don't mean abjuring any material concerns; I meant whether members of the anti-capitalist left want the accompany prestige and luxurious life of financial wealth, not just merely wanting possessing enough money/income to evade the privation and social alienation of poverty.

I don't want their wealth, but the reason why I want to take it away from the bourgeoisie because it is often parlayed into supporting reactionary policies both foreign and domestic, such as imperialist wars and abolition of the institutions of the welfare state. It is a more pragmatic reason than "envy". The possession of excessive wealth is often harmful to society.

[citizen of industry]

It's not being envious of the wealth. It's the fact that some people have so much of it while others don't have access to food, clothing, healthcare, education, freetime, etc. That some people slave away all day long and have nothing, while others do nothing and have everything. The fact that the wealth itself was created by the working class, and expropriated by a parasite class.

The points the poster tries to make about taxation are false. Corporations and the wealthy don't pay taxes. They use tax havens, offshore accounts, pass the cost on to the consumer. The percentage of taxes they do pay pale in proportion to their wealth, whereas the amount of taxes the poor pay make up a hugely significant portion of their wages. Look at sales tax, for example. When a rich man and a poor man buy a carton of milk, what percentage of income does the sales tax make up for each?

What drives me against capitalism is the sheer abundance of goods, of wealth, of technology. There is no reason whatsoever why anyone on this planet should lack basic necessities, jobs, freedoms, or a decent standard of living. The only reason they do is because of the accumulation of wealth (produced by society) that ends up in a few greedy hands.

[Red Rabbit]

and they conveniently always seem to forget that it's a sin to covet other peoples money.


forget that it's a sin to covet other peoples money.


forget that it's a sin


it's a sin

So, pretty much; "Derp".

[eyedrop]

I just want to improve my life, through hard work, it's just that improving my life involves bringing down the capitalists.

[manic expression]

I'm all in favor of people having comfort and luxury...the only issue is how one accrues that wealth and the consequences it holds for others and for humanity in general. If anyone has any trouble comprehending that, then they should ask themselves if people oppose rape solely because they dislike sex.

To add to that, there is no group in the world more envious than the capitalist class. They work day and night (or else employ others to work for them day and night) to take from others for their own benefit. They are so unceasingly envious that they will travel the length and breadth of the globe to destroy any group who puts property into common hands. Truly, it is precisely this covetousness that anti-capitalists discover, once and again, to be their most vociferous enemy.

So anyone looking to assign that "sin" to leftists is obviously coveting their ass with their head.


without capitalists making LOTS of money, there would be less taxes paid for social systems
a.) Capitalists don't pay very much for "social systems" as others have already detailed, b.) capitalists making "LOTS of money" directly translates into capitalists trying their very best into doing away with such "social systems" and c.) the fact that there are millions who depend on "social systems" for their very survival is the problem we aim to solve.

[Kosakk]

Isn't capitalists the envious ones?
I mean, they allways try to outdo each other one way or another.

I met a real estate agent once, at a party, and all he was talking about was how much money he made that month and how he was planning on making more money. Totally uninteresting to me!

I personally don't care for money, only matter is that I make enough for a living (paying rent, for food, etc).

[Leonid Brozhnev]

Anti Capitalists are only in it for the money... fuck guys, we've been rumbled!

[Lokomotive293]

I absolutely hate it when people call me "envious of the rich" for pointing out the obvious injustice and oppression inherent to capitalism. That's like saying a slave who wants to live in freedom is "just envious of his master". The argument is probably as old as that, too. The same with using religion to justify oppression.

[28350]

Our demands most moderate are – We only want the earth!

[xub3rn00dlex]

If me wantin to own my own means of production, my own value createdthrough my own labor, and wanting the same for all my comrades around the world means i am some kind of envious, then so be it.

[Erratus]

Honestly, I am more preoccupied by the poverty around the world. The fact that someone has lots of material wealth in and of itself doesn't bother, that fact that someone has a lot of material wealth taken from the labour of the poor is what bothers me. People live in squalor, children go without meals, and people are forced to work long grueling hours just to stay afloat as people take much of the money they earned. That is what I am displeased about.

[Azraella]

Not really. If I didn't have a family, I'd probably live a life of ascetism in the middle of bum fucking nowhere. My struggles in providing for my family has very much informed my opposition to capitalism.

[Kamos]

Honestly, I am more preoccupied by the poverty around the world. The fact that someone has lots of material wealth in and of itself doesn't bother, that fact that someone has a lot of material wealth taken from the labour of the poor is what bothers me. People live in squalor, children go without meals, and people are forced to work long grueling hours just to stay afloat as people take much of the money they earned. That is what I am displeased about.

Pretty much. I'm not exactly from a poor family (although we are working class), so communism is not so much a self-interest of mine.

[The Stalinator]

"You're just jealous" is an argument often used by people who want to demean those making a point against them, but can't think of a valid argument to achieve such a thing, so they put up a front of being superior to their opponent by attacking their character.

If you look at any cliquey Facebook cat-fight you'll see the same arguments, different topic.

tl;dr: The people who claim anti-capitalists are just jealous are most likely ignorant and definitely very immature.

[piet11111]

My struggles in providing for my family has very much informed my opposition to capitalism.

Just think what capitalism will do to them in terms of expected living standards healthcare and retirement heck even education.

[Zealot]

We aren't envious of their wealth, we hate the fact that they exploited workers to attain that wealth, it's basically stolen money (stolen from workers). So much for communists wanting to "steal" money from the rich.

Does he honestly think social systems were set-up willingly by capitalists? Pffft.

[Azraella]

Just think what capitalism will do to them in terms of expected living standards healthcare and retirement heck even education.


I already dread that. Especially with American capitalism:(

[ZeroNowhere]

Just compare them to Twilight fans who argue that anybody who dislikes the series is jealous of Stephanie Meyer. That should embarrass them sufficiently.

[Quail]

No, not NECESSARILY do they hate the rich, but their arguments often focus on the wealth of other people, and reflect a covetous type of envy....and they conveniently http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif always seem to forget that it's a sin to covet other peoples money.

The fact is that capitalism is the best economic system we have thus far, and without capitalists making LOTS of money, there would be less taxes paid for social systems. If you're anti capitalist WITHOUT having another proven economic system that has shown it self to work better, then you're just complaining for the sake of complaining, and NOT offering a solution.



Capitalism in America can certainly be improved upon, but that's already been happening anyway as social programs have increased hugely in the last hundred years and have ALL been paid for by taxes that in one way or another originate or stem from capitalist activity. Capitalism has created a society in America that people risk their lives to get to, rather than risk their lives to escape from as in other countries.
This post is so full of fail it's hard to know where to start. All of these arguments can be refuted in seconds.

I don't object to people having a high standard of living, or reaping the benefits of the abundance of food, technology, etc. I object that people do this at the expense of others; the people at the top reap all of the benefits, and those at the bottom reap none, despite the fact that if there were no workers, there would be no benefits for the rich to reap.

I want a society where everyone has an equal share in its benefits. That isn't based on jealousy, but on empathy and compassion and the idea that people should be able to enjoy the fruits of their labour to the fullest.

[Black_Rose]

This post is so full of fail it's hard to know where to start. All of these arguments can be refuted in seconds.

I don't object to people having a high standard of living, or reaping the benefits of the abundance of food, technology, etc. I object that people do this at the expense of others; the people at the top reap all of the benefits, and those at the bottom reap none, despite the fact that if there were no workers, there would be no benefits for the rich to reap.

I want a society where everyone has an equal share in its benefits. That isn't based on jealousy, but on empathy and compassion and the idea that people should be able to enjoy the fruits of their labour to the fullest.

I think the point of it as it offers so many faux "points" that it cannot be refuted due to time constraints. It is like the "Gish Gallop" for those familiar with Creation/Evolution.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Never gotten the "You're just jealous" line.

I've lately been getting the "You're just young; when people are your age they just want to change the world into some starry-eyed fantasy" ad hominem.

[Klaatu]

"without capitalists making LOTS of money, there would be less taxes paid for social systems."

This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. The writer assumes that it is the capitalist himself that is the wealth-creator,
when in FACT, it is the worker that creates the actual wealth. The capitalist "paying taxes to support social systems" is merely the
capitalist returning the wealth to the working class, whom it was unjustly taken from in the first place!

It's kind of like having to buy back your stolen car from the thief that stole it from you!

[Tim Finnegan]

Well, I've never passed a sleepless night because of an unfulfilled craving for possession of a tastelessly-decorated McMansion, so, no, I don't think that envy enters into it.

[promethean]

Are anti-capitalists envious people? Yes.

[Erratus]

Never gotten the "You're just jealous" line.

I've lately been getting the "You're just young; when people are your age they just want to change the world into some starry-eyed fantasy" ad hominem.

I like to respond to that with the good old "You're just too old, you've lost your way" line. And yeah, both of those lines rely on making the speaker look like their beliefs stem from something other than rational thought. Even if every single communist and socialist were just jealous, that doesn't disprove anything we say. Concepts are independent of a the one who conceives of them.

[Buttress]

I'm not hugely wealthy, but i'm not exactly poor. I'm not envious of those with wealth (and power) but I am envious of perhaps more trivial things, like appearance :p

[ZeroNowhere]

Never gotten the "You're just jealous" line.

I've lately been getting the "You're just young; when people are your age they just want to change the world into some starry-eyed fantasy" ad hominem.
I've usually just responded to that with a flood of Marxist jargon. Starry-eyed this. Of course, the essential point is that we're not concerned with oneself, but with the truth.

[Misanthrope]

I don't know every single anti-capitalist in the world nor is it fair to give a group of people with similar political tendencies one single label.

Reactionary, anti-intelligent bs like this makes me ashamed to be a confirmed member of the Catholic church (Don't ask).

[Klaatu]

Quote:
Are anti-capitalists envious people?
Yes.

We all know that Capitalists are not envious people. :rolleyes:

[Kombouto]

Of course I'm envious. I'm envious because they have everything in life with so little effort. I despise rich people because most of them are silly people who wouldn't have achieved nothing if they hadn't been born in wealthy families.
That's why I'm a communist. As the Communist Manifesto says:
"3. Abolition of all right of inheritance".