Violence against Whites in South Africa

[tir1944]

I'm sure we've all heard of the increasing rates of racist violence against Whites in SA.What should we do about this?
What are the official attitudes of various Leftist parties on this issue?

http://digitaljournal.com/article/265201

[Franz Fanonipants]

I'm sure we've all heard of the increasing rates of racist violence against Whites in SA.What should we do about this?
What are the official attitudes of various Leftist parties on this issue?

http://digitaljournal.com/article/265201

that you're a closet white supremacist
/thread

[tir1944]

What? WTF is wrong with you? How can you accuse me of this just like that,without any proof or allegation whatsoever?
Shame on you.

[tir1944]

If you're too ignorant to realize that cooperation and friendship between Blacks and Whites in SA particularly is very imporant to the revolutionary movemement of the working class,then you're a lost case.

[Franz Fanonipants]

bro did you do any comparative studies on rates of violence against blacks in s. africa?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I'm sure there are cases of racist attacks on whites but crime in general in South Africa is really, really high and overall the structural racism in South Africa is still worse for most black people there who have much higher poverty rates etc. To some extent perhaps racist attacks on whites are also an expression of the frustration many have with the continued structural racism which keeps them down (not to excuse it obviously)

Also, bigoted black people in South Africa, the African equivalent of European fascist violence, are likely to go after migrants from other parts of Africa ie black refugees from Zimbabwe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia_in_South_Africa#May_2008_riots

[Tim Cornelis]

Racism against whites in South Africa is problematic and should be condemned. I have no idea what left-wing political organisations and parties' stances are, but presumably most would deny the issue.

Whereas the far-right usually argues the farm attacks are racist in nature, and in fact is a form of genocide, the facts show otherwise. 61% of the victims of farm attacks are white, and this is not because they have been singled out for racist motives but simply because white people tend to own a disproportional (in ratio to ethnicity) amount of land. This is not to say whites are never attacked for racist motives, but the far-right tends to exaggerate their claims.

[Franz Fanonipants]

If you're too ignorant to realize that cooperation and friendship between Blacks and Whites in SA particularly is very imporant to the revolutionary movemement of the working class,then you're a lost case.

the parties you mentioned that are advocating about this shit are the furthest from a revolutionary movement of the working class you can get.

you're basically parroting ultra-right SA parties.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Whereas the far-right usually argues the farm attacks are racist in nature, and in fact is a form of genocide, the facts show otherwise. 61% of the victims of farm attacks are white, and this is not because they have been singled out for racist motives but simply because white people tend to own a disproportional (in ratio to ethnicity) amount of land. This is not to say whites are never attacked for racist motives, but the far-right tends to exaggerate their claims.

this is exactly what is going on and it's unfortunate that tir lacks the analytic process to determine this

[Tim Cornelis]

I'm sure there are cases of racist attacks on whites but crime in general in South Africa is really, really high and overall the structural racism in South Africa is still worse for most black people there who have much higher poverty rates etc. To some extent perhaps racist attacks on whites are also an expression of the frustration many have with the continued structural racism which keeps them down (not to excuse it obviously)

Also, bigoted black people in South Africa, the African equivalent of European fascist violence, are likely to go after migrants from other parts of Africa ie black refugees from Zimbabwe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia_in_South_Africa#May_2008_riots

The bolded part is highly questionable, and imo false. Who is oppressing black people today? Not whites, they have no power. The ANC is in charge and has implemented a affirmative action campaign, redistribution wealth, expropriation white farmers, etc. black people do have a higher poverty rate but this is an effluence of apartheid, not the result of persistent "structural racism".

[Franz Fanonipants]

But comrade isn't the very point you made about white majority ownership of land proof of structural racism?

Not that I love the ANC or anything

[Thirsty Crow]

But comrade isn't the very point you made about white majority ownership of land proof of structural racism?

Not that I love the ANC or anything
It could be argued, I guess, that this represents a result of historical structural racism, something which was supposedly abolished by toppling the apartheid.
But this view would have to be focused on one area alone: institutions, and official policies, and the issue of diffused racism would be missed.
I think it would be best if we discussed the concrete ways in which structural racism (against black people) in contemporary RSA manifests itself.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

The bolded part is highly questionable, and imo false. Who is oppressing black people today? Not whites, they have no power. The ANC is in charge and has implemented a affirmative action campaign, redistribution wealth, expropriation white farmers, etc. black people do have a higher poverty rate but this is an effluence of apartheid, not the result of persistent "structural racism".


But comrade isn't the very point you made about white majority ownership of land proof of structural racism?

Not that I love the ANC or anything

What fanonipants said. You are right that black people today are not being repressed by a cabal of white overlords, but the structural poverty that the vast majority of the black South Africans live under is a racist structure which continues to have an effect from apartheid days, even though Mandela taking office was supposed to have changed that. I'm talking about the continuing ramifications of 300 years of white European rule. So I think you misunderstood what I meant.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Just like those poor whites in Zimbabwe. Oh wait, they are land lords and plants from colonial times.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Just like those poor whites in Zimbabwe. Oh wait, they are land lords and plants from colonial times.

What is happening there is different. White land lords needed to have their land redistributed but not because they were white or descended from Rhodesian settlers but because they were landlords. Mugabe seems determined to build up a heteronormative racially pure black bourgeois to run his country, a ruling class which he seems eager to join (http://www.iol.co.za/news/africa/mugabe-seizes-third-farm-for-himself-1.293025). While he is busy lauding Adolf Hitler (http://www.rense.com/general36/ZUUM.HTM) and blaming White Europeans for bringing homosexuality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Zimbabwe#Mugabe_administration) to Africa, some Western leftists actually seem to think he really did have redistribution of wealth on his mind. If that were the case, land would have gone to settle the poor black slumdwellers who instead had their homes demolished by the governmen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Murambatsvina)t, not rich cronies of the state.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Liberals and right wingers from Europe and the USA cry over the 'anti-white' Zimbabwean actions, they cry over a few Afrikaaners getting beat up in South Africa, but never will they apologize for colonialism. To them, they were bringing civilization to Africa. to them, its black people 'being black.' They wont mention hundreds of thousands slaughtered in Khartoum, they wont put this side to side with the slave trade, they wont make reference to the Congo. No.

Now, attacking white people for being white is wrong. Im not apologizing for it, but still. When the west brings it to the forefront or puts it in the media, it is demonizing a formerly colonized continent and people. Same with how much of the media portrays China today. Yes the Communist Party is headed by right wingers but media does not mention that, they only say the government is brutal oppressive and evil. But what about the left wing of the party? Do the mention criticism of the right wing from the left wing? Do they mention intra-party ideological struggle? no.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Liberals and right wingers from Europe and the USA cry over the 'anti-white' Zimbabwean actions, they cry over a few Afrikaaners getting beat up in South Africa, but never will they apologize for colonialism. To them, they were bringing civilization to Africa. to them, its black people 'being black.' They wont mention hundreds of thousands slaughtered in Khartoum, they wont put this side to side with the slave trade, they wont make reference to the Congo. No.


Actually you have a point here, but maybe not the one you meant to make-the main target of ZANU repression in the past few years were the hundreds of thousands of African slumdwellers who were driven from their homes. The double standard is stunning that the Western media all but ignored that while it reported extensively on a few thousand white farmers losing their property, when the black slumdwellers are twice the victims, first of historical white racism and second current state violence towards the poor.

But there were still some big problems with the land redistribution program; in particular the extent and severity of State violence shown not only to land owners but their families and, yes, their black workers too, and the fact that much of the best agricultural land went to his allies or at least didn't go to the black people who were already working the land.

http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2002/03/08/fast-track-land-reform-zimbabwe


The "fast track" land resettlement program implemented by the government of Zimbabwe over the last two years has led to serious human rights violations. The program's implementation also raises serious doubts as to the extent to which it has benefited the landless poor. The stated aim of the fast track program is to take land from rich white commercial farmers for redistribution to poor and middle-income landless black Zimbabweans. Under the program, however, ruling party militias, often led by veterans of Zimbabwe's liberation war, have carried out serious acts of violence against farm owners, farm workers, and, using occupied farms as bases for attacks, against residents of surrounding areas. The police have done little to halt such violence, and in some cases are directly implicated in the abuses. The process of allocating plots to those who want land has frequently discriminated against those who are believed to support opposition parties, and in some cases those supervising the process have required applicants to demonstrate support for the ruling party, the Zimbabwe African National Union-Patriotic Front (Zanu-PF). Zimbabwe's several hundred thousand farm workers have been largely excluded from the program, and many have lost their jobs, driven from the farms where they work by violence or laid off because of a collapse in commercial agricultural production.The idea that Mugabe isn't a bigot would be more compelling if he didn't blame homosexuality on European people/influence (which is not only racial bigotry, more importantly it is deeply homophobic). That combined with his forced removal of slum dwellers shows that what is driving Mugabe on some level is a dangerous sort of nativist chauvinism, not a real desire to fix the real problems of the colonialist and capitalist heritage.


Now, attacking white people for being white is wrong. Im not apologizing for it, but still. When the west brings it to the forefront or puts it in the media, it is demonizing a formerly colonized continent and people. That's why I don't buy the argument in the article that Tir posted that Afrikaners are some repressed minority. Certainly, even in Zimbabwe, black people are bigger victims of 200 years of systemic racism than the white farmers are of a few years of modern repression, and as such the media is thoroughly irresponsible when it focuses almost entirely on the latter and not the former. Also I don't think Africa (Zimbabwe included) was ever really "decolonized"-part of the problem in fact is the almost fetishistic belief that a few local white farmers or "the Smith government" are/were the main vector of colonialism and that by expunging them somehow you've dealt with the problem.


Same with how much of the media portrays China today. Yes the Communist Party is headed by right wingers but media does not mention that, they only say the government is brutal oppressive and evil. But what about the left wing of the party? Do the mention criticism of the right wing from the left wing? Do they mention intra-party ideological struggle? no. The western media does love histrionics and simplistic generalization but that doesn't then mean that the groups "taken to task" in the Western media are entirely guiltless of sin either. You are right though it is important to view the narratives of the Western media (or all media for that matter) with criticism.

[ScarletSojourner]

that you're a closet white supremacist
/thread

Why do you say that? There are now capitalist wealthy blacks in South Africa, but the same amount of poor and workers. The current capitalist regime there uses blood and soil rantings and racism to control people and channel anger away from the actual system.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Why do you say that? There are now capitalist wealthy blacks in South Africa, but the same amount of poor and workers. The current capitalist regime there uses blood and soil rantings and racism to control people and channel anger away from the actual system.

how big is the black working class, how big is the afrikaans landowning class, how big is the white capitalist class

give me numbers sonn

[tobbinator]

I don't think it's violence against whites that is the problem, it's the fact that it's racial at all.

[Franz Fanonipants]

i'm not sure i understand comrade, can you have violence without race or class coming into the picture?

[Sendo]

The bolded part is highly questionable, and imo false. Who is oppressing black people today? Not whites, they have no power. The ANC is in charge and has implemented a affirmative action campaign, redistribution wealth, expropriation white farmers, etc. black people do have a higher poverty rate but this is an effluence of apartheid, not the result of persistent "structural racism".

Okay. Wow. If a "colored" South African (above pure zulu or other indigenous people on South Africa's racial hierarchy) complains about structural racism in 2011, he must be taking the piss, then? Are you by any chance an Anglo-American or ethnic European?

[Tim Cornelis]

Okay. Wow. If a "colored" South African (above pure zulu or other indigenous people on South Africa's racial hierarchy) complains about structural racism in 2011, he must be taking the piss, then? Are you by any chance an Anglo-American or ethnic European?

No, I was talking about black people, not coloured. Anyone who is familiar with the situation in South Africa knows an Afrikaner (white) has as much reason to complain about racism as a Zulu or Xhosa (although for different reasons). But the most discriminated people in contemporary South Africa are the coloured because they were too black for Apartheid South Africa and are too white for ANC's South Africa.

And another misconception: Zulu aren't indigenous to South Africa and in fact moved to South Africa during the same time as whites/boers/Afrikaners.

Akubekuhle ;)

[Red Future]

Fuck the Afrikaners ..they have had it good for far too long.I dont shed a tear that they have lost their "privelige" of race.

[Martin Blank]

Waaaaaah! Reverse racism! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Fuck you. Thread closed.