Bored with the same old shit?

[Edward Norton]

Does anyone on this board feel the same way as I do?

That all the so-called 'Marxist' parties (whether they are stalinist, trotskyist or other) don't do anything and have no potential to do anything.

None of them have made any impact and most of them exist as clubs/sects of like minded people who group around some leader who gets them to do papersales and other meaningless activites.

No wonder the masses are so indifferent to Marxism.

I am just wondering if anyone feels like there could be something more worthwhile.

[(*]

Originally posted by Edward [email protected] 9 2003, 12:24 PM

That all the so-called 'Marxist' parties (whether they are stalinist, trotskyist or other) don't do anything and have no potential to do anything.

None of them have made any impact and most of them exist as clubs/sects of like minded people who group around some leader who gets them to do papersales and other meaningless activites.


In the United States, yes.
But in the rest of the world they have influence.



*EDIT* how could they reach a greater audience in the US?

[Hawker]

Originally posted by (*+Nov 9 2003, 05:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ((* @ Nov 9 2003, 05:29 PM)
Edward [email protected] 9 2003, 12:24 PM

That all the so-called &#39;Marxist&#39; parties (whether they are stalinist, trotskyist or other) don&#39;t do anything and have no potential to do anything.

None of them have made any impact and most of them exist as clubs/sects of like minded people who group around some leader who gets them to do papersales and other meaningless activites.


In the United States, yes.
But in the rest of the world they have influence.



*EDIT* how could they reach a greater audience in the US? [/b]
Well my opinion is that reaching a greater influence in the US is almost completely impossible because people have been too disillusioned by the corporate media and their mindless obediance to the government.

[Saint-Just]

I think they are as effectual as you would expect comparative to their small size. If they were larger then you could criticise them for being useless with more effect. I think it is not simply down to the party to create revolutionary awareness, but down to the prevailing social, political and economic circumstances; therefore they cannot be attributed much blame for the lack of any successful socialist movement in the U.S.

Why do you choose the name Edward Norton? I know of no Edward Norton bar the American actor Edward Norton.

[Edward Norton]

[QUOTE]Why do you choose the name Edward Norton? I know of no Edward Norton bar the American actor Edward Norton.[QUOTE]

Lol.

Thats not my real name.

Yes my username is that of Edward Norton the actor (American History X and Fight Club).

I don&#39;t think it would be wise to post my real name on the net.

[Edward Norton]

But in the rest of the world they have influence

In Nepal, Mexico and a few other developing nations, yes you are right.

But the so-called &#39;Marxist&#39; parties have NO impact in the countries of Europe.

Even in places like France and Italy the &#39;official&#39; (ie: old pro-USSR parties) Communist parties are just a bunch of career politicians and reformists who have become just a little bit TOO comfortable with the current political establishments of their respective nations.

As for places like Britain, the far-left and the left outside of the Labour Party is one big fucking joke, like I said in my first post, you can now understand why people don&#39;t find whats on offer very appealing.


I think they are as effectual as you would expect comparative to their small size. If they were larger then you could criticise them for being useless with more effect. I think it is not simply down to the party to create revolutionary awareness, but down to the prevailing social, political and economic circumstances; therefore they cannot be attributed much blame for the lack of any successful socialist movement in the U.S.

To some extent there is truth in what you say.

But in Russia between 1914-17 the state was in deep shit, losing the war, economy going down the drain and all the rest. Yet for three years the Russian people did nothing. Only after the Bolshevik party organised itself and made a REAL effort to gain the support of the masses did it then achieve a revolution in 1917.

The point I am making, is that there are many people who would love nothing better than to see the current system destoyed. Despite the false sense of consumer prosperity that exists in many first world countries, there are many people who have gained nothing out of this rotten system.

Yes we have not had some MAJOR economic crash (like Wall Street 1929), but it was not an impending economic crisis that has drawn millions of people to the streets against globalisation and capitalism (starting with Seattle and then going to Genoa, Nice, Gothenburg and most recently Cancun).

People have just had enough of the fact that their lives are that of a slave, the wage slave. From when we first start school to when we leave university, we a trained to get jobs that we don&#39;t really want to do, but have to in order to scratch out a pathetic existence of consumerism and continual work that serves NO REAL PURPOSE&#33;

A large swath of people would try and do something to remedy this situation. Yet when people look at the alternatives on offer, they just back off from them, due to the fact that all the so-called &#39;Marxist&#39; parties in the first world countries are just small irrelevant sects that argue with each other over some vague historical event (usually the Trotsky-Stalin arguement) and do nothing more than some paper sales on a Saturday morning to people who couldn&#39;t really care less.

Despite their single issue based politics (egologism) groups like the Earth Liberation Front (ELF) have the right idea, that instead of being some little sect stuck in some timewarp, they go out and put their cause in peoples faces. It gets peoples attention and a lot of peoples respect. Unlike the small &#39;Marxist&#39; sects, they are not just a bunch of university lectures who stay stuck in their meeting rooms cut off from the real world and from the very people they claim to be fighting for. They are out there doing something.

Yes, one can argue the effectiveness of their tactics. But I know for one, that however effective/ineffective groups like the ELF maybe, Their tactics have yet to show failure, unlike those tactics of the &#39;Marxist&#39; sects.

Besides they have the right idea with regards to direct action.

DESTROY PROPERTY, NOT PEOPLE.

To me it makes perfect sense since ALL property is theft anyways.

[SonofRage]

If American Marxist groups were engaged in activities like the ELF, that would just feed anti-communist propaganda. Marxist groups have been very active in the anti-war movement so I don&#39;t think it&#39;s fair to say they are doing nothing. On the electoral front, there are major barriers in the US as far as ballot access, access to the debates, etc. Also, since we have this winner take all system instead of a parlimentary proportional representation system, it makes it even more difficult.

The only truly leftist group in the US having any success these days in the Green Party and I think anyone who wants a party independent from corporate interests and the two capitalists parties should support them.

[redstar2000]

But in Russia between 1914-17 the state was in deep shit, losing the war, economy going down the drain and all the rest. Yet for three years the Russian people did nothing. Only after the Bolshevik party organised itself and made a REAL effort to gain the support of the masses did it then achieve a revolution in 1917.

Historically, that&#39;s not true.

After 1912 or thereabouts, there were continuous strikes and peasant rebellions in Russia. After 1915, serious desertions began to cripple the Russian armies. By late 1916, workers were in an insurrectionary mood. In February 1917, the revolution began when women workers, sick of waiting in bread-lines and not receiving bread, marched to major Petrograd factories and called, in effect, for a general strike against Czarism. The Petrograd garrisons largely went over to the revolution...and that was it for Czarism.

Neither Bolsheviks nor Mensheviks played any significant role...although some assisted in the organization of the Soviets. It was the working class that did the job.


Yet when people look at the alternatives on offer, they just back off from them, due to the fact that all the so-called &#39;Marxist&#39; parties in the first world countries are just small irrelevant sects that argue with each other over some vague historical event (usually the Trotsky-Stalin argument) and do nothing more than some paper sales on a Saturday morning to people who couldn&#39;t really care less.

I agree with you about this and would push your analysis even further. The people who do join these parties find them enormously alienating with the passage of time. They have no meaningful influence on the party&#39;s policies or its leadership; they are subjected to endless nagging to "sell more newspapers", etc. It&#39;s probably as bad and may be even worse than the Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses. (See the threads in Theory "The Progressive Labor Party" or "St. Avakian&#39;s First Church of Mao".)

The real problem is the whole Leninist paradigm...it sucks&#33;

The whole appeal of Leninism is based on a conceit...that "we are the chosen few who will liberate the working class".

People are at least dimly aware that the working class was never "liberated" in countries where Leninists took power...why should they choose a new boss over the boss they already have?

The are some real opportunities emerging for Marxist revolutionaries...but little will be accomplished until all this Leninist crap is relegated to the dumpster of history.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Damnit&#33;
Too late.
I was about to tell you to ignore all the shit that Redstar was about to tell you in hopes of luring you into anarchism.

[Blackberry]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2003, 02:13 PM
Damnit&#33;
Too late.
I was about to tell you to ignore all the shit that Redstar was about to tell you in hopes of luring you into anarchism.
I have already explained once before that he is no anarchist.

Stop. spreading. lies.

And if you have no positive contribution to a topic, don&#39;t press the "reply" button. You have the habit of bumping old topics with useless images. Raising the post count, perhaps? What is the point of that?

[Tiki Man]

Your replying to him in this topic is as bad as mine replying to yours. If you have such an off topic message, please just PM him. And I can back up Victor on the fact he is not a post whore. He stated that once one reaches Commandante, posts don&#39;t matter anymore. You sound as if you are trying to have a perfect supercop image with that post; personal messages work just as well.

VC was just stating a fact he observed and wished he had shared earlier.

Umkay. Back on topic.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Comrade James+Nov 10 2003, 11:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Comrade James @ Nov 10 2003, 11:11 AM)
[email protected] 10 2003, 02:13 PM
Damnit&#33;
Too late.
I was about to tell you to ignore all the shit that Redstar was about to tell you in hopes of luring you into anarchism.
I have already explained once before that he is no anarchist.

Stop. spreading. lies.

And if you have no positive contribution to a topic, don&#39;t press the "reply" button. You have the habit of bumping old topics with useless images. Raising the post count, perhaps? What is the point of that? [/b]
What he&#39;s not an anarchist, except that he has a shit load of anarchistic policies, you mean?

And if you have no positive contribution to a topic, don&#39;t press the "reply" button.

The same could be said to you in a number of threads, this one now included.

You have the habit of bumping old topics with useless images. Raising the post count, perhaps? What is the point of that?

Well I would not expect you to get humour... so I can let this one by, but what VC posts we what we call a joke, it makes people laugh, just because your shepherd is the butt of some of these jokes, don’t take it personal...

Raising the post count, perhaps?


Well I don’t know about you but from my experience, most people don’t give a rats arse about the post counts, especially when they have several thousand, its quite interesting to see you resort to the very thing you criticise VC for, well originality doesn’t seem to be your speciality.

What is the point of that?

The "point" is blindingly obvious, its called "taking the piss".

[truthaddict11]

Well I don’t know about you but from my experience, most people don’t give a rats arse about the post counts

didnt you start a whole big thread on your 3000th post?

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2003, 05:04 PM

Well I don’t know about you but from my experience, most people don’t give a rats arse about the post counts

didnt you start a whole big thread on your 3000th post?
I was commenting on my need to get a life...

And "big" is a highly inaccurate way of describing the said thread.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Okay, fellas, this discussion is going nowhere.
First of all, TA, all threads are of equal size.
Secondly, Redstar may not be an anarchist, but he certainly has many anarchist leanings and anarchist tendencies.
Speaking of tendencies, Comrade James, a tendency is something one does regularly. I have bumped up an old post with a picture once.

Putting all that aside, I apologize for the post, it seems to have to bothered some of you, so I&#39;m sorry, comrades. This was not the intention.

[Love and Respect]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 07:35 PM
The only truly leftist group in the US having any success these days in the Green Party and I think anyone who wants a party independent from corporate interests and the two capitalists parties should support them.
I was curious to how others felt about supporting other leftists groups, not one they would normally support, such as the Green party. I am a U.S. citizen currently attending a university and I have run across a small number of socialists who don&#39;t really support everything the Green Party stands for , but support it because of the paranoia and assumption (or is it ignorance) that all socialists are communists and all communists are evil which makes it the only leftist party capable of any success in the U.S. today. I for one am a registered Independant and have voted for the Green Party in the past. I dont believe I am compromising my beleifs in doing so, but I wanted others thoughts and opinions on the matter. Also a side note, most U.S. citizens see a pic of Che Guevara and think it is Fidel Castro. Schools here dont teach much about Latin America and those that do (unless you run into a great prof at a university) focus mainly on Fidel and Cuba. They dont mention anything positive about Castro and Cuba, but are quick to point out the fact that the fall of communism means it is debunk. All the whhile ignoring the fact that democracy has failed in many countries before. I guess Ignorance is Bliss. Ugh&#33;

[blackemma]

If more people had anarchist tendencies (e.g., appreciation for self-government, solidarity, and a do-it-yourself ethic) rather than traditional authoritian tendencies (e.g., respect for strong leader, being guided like sheep, and having liberation handed to you from above) then the world would a much better place and we wouldn&#39;t have a bunch of authoritarian assfucks like Bush and Castro governing the world.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Watch who you call an authoritarian assfuck, my friend. :angry: