The white working class: a parasite class?

[Unclebananahead]

"The white working class is not a vanguard revolutionary class, it is a backward parasitic class, which directly benefited from the enslavement, land theft, and dispossession of our ancestors in the Americas, Africa, Asia and Oceania. America is not Europe, and the social reality which produced this society is fundamentally different. Although the United States of America did invade countries in the Caribbean and all over Central and Latin America for land and peoples, it did not have to leave its shores to colonize or steal slaves like Europe. It is a white settler nation which has always maintained internal colonies. Know who you are, who the Euro-Amercans are, set the terms for cooperation, but do not allow terms to be set for you."

Thoughts? Reactions?

[ZeroNowhere]

Not the best of times to bring this up, I reckon.

[Revolutionair]

Racist -> reactionary.
Nothing more to say about it really...

[Unclebananahead]

I didn't write that. The author is Lorenzo Kom'boa Ervin. I wanted to get some responses to this.

[postanarchism]

Whiteness is part of race, not class. The role of race in power relations and the role of class in power relations intersect but they are not the same relationship of power. If a white worker benefits from his power in racial and gender relationships, he still does not possess class power as long as he is still bound up in the asymmetric distribution of power in the production of commodities. So no, 'whites' are not a 'parasitic class'. 'Whites' are members of a class vis-a-vis their individual position within the chain of economic production. Whether they are 'parasites' in the power relationship between members of 'races' is the subject of race & racism studies. But I think members of those fields would object to the term 'parasite' as imprecise and inflammatory. Not to mention how being subjected to whiteness is problematic for the individual as well.

[The Jay]

No-one should be held responsible for who they are born to. Blaming whites now for slavery is like saying all chinese are still communist.

[Искра]

If you believe that "white working class" is a parasite class, come here in Croatia... we are 99.99% white, but in a deep shit. Anyhow, my point is that "white working class = parasites" theory is non-Marxist reactionary theory of silly American Maoists.

[citizen of industry]

I smell the unpleasant stench of third-worldism here. The white working class is working class. What kind of ridiculous argument is bringing up wealthy, slave-owning landowners or industrial imperialists from a century ago and using that as a basis to condemn American workers, past or present, who have a very militant history of struggle.

[ВАЛТЕР]

What person wrote this nonsense? So the miners, factory workers, and farmers working here in Serbia (a Predominately white nation) are parasites? I think this needs to be rephrased and be more specific, because many "white nations" have not enslaved anybody. Poles, Czechs, Yugoslavs, etc. have not built anything by way of slavery but rather with their own peoples labor.

[Os Cangaceiros]

*shrug* I wouldn't pay much attention to it, seeing as how it's MTWism and all. At least it didn't trot out the old "AmeriKKKa" spelling, though.

America has always had a large white underclass, largely consisting of immigrants of Scot-Irish, Welsh, Italian, and eastern European descent, and these nationalities were some of the fiercest partisans in the labor struggle that would come to define the USA. Their class's historic "privilege" stretches from tenement slums to the trailer courts of today.

What the author and others like him ultimately propose is not a broad class unity but instead Balkanization.

[Misanthrope]

Who ever wrote this isn't Marxian and rejects sane class analysis.

Next.

[ZeroNowhere]

Who ever wrote this isn't Marxian and rejects sane class analysis.

Next.
But dude, Marx was white and this is very important.

[Misanthrope]

But dude, Marx was white and this is very important.
Elaborate pl0x

Don't get me wrong race does play a factor in society but this is a result of class conflict.

[La Comédie Noire]

The white working class, whatever privileges it did have though it can be argued those were exaggerated by the ruling class and white workers themselves, are waning. Not even white supremacy can withstand the leveling effect of the world economy. Unless you honestly think the situation in the industrialized nations is going to get better, or even reach prior levels.

No, I'm afraid that's on it's way out, capitalism has no loyalties except to profit and the accumulation of more capital.

Now what's going to be important is how the white working class reacts to their loss of privilege. Either they will join the rest of the working class in open struggle against the capitalist system, or they will join the side of the reaction and blame immigrants, welfare mothers, blacks, and even gays in their loss of privilege. Taking out their anger and feelings of betrayal against the weak and marginalized.

It could go either way frankly.

[Azraella]

"The white working class is not a vanguard revolutionary class, it is a backward parasitic class, which directly benefited from the enslavement, land theft, and dispossession of our ancestors in the Americas, Africa, Asia and Oceania. America is not Europe, and the social reality which produced this society is fundamentally different. Although the United States of America did invade countries in the Caribbean and all over Central and Latin America for land and peoples, it did not have to leave its shores to colonize or steal slaves like Europe. It is a white settler nation which has always maintained internal colonies. Know who you are, who the Euro-Amercans are, set the terms for cooperation, but do not allow terms to be set for you."

Thoughts? Reactions?

It seems to be promoting the same thing a certain band argued against (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnH65_zFh2Q).


You blame oppression and play the role of criminals
To rape and burn show progress is minimal
White hoods and militants you know it's such a pity
Living, breathing
Violence in your city

If one man
Had one home
In one world
Held live alone without variety
Full of anxiety
No one to point at, question
Or even talk to -- in his private grave
No matter what color
He wouldn't be saved from hell
He dwells
A closed mind playing the part of prison cells



Another band comes into mind especially about slanderous fucks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc2HH-nGpvc)


And I raise my middle fingers
to those that

Murder us, silence us
Divide and conquer us
As they lead, as we die

[Yuppie Grinder]

That was fucking stupid and that is all I have to say about that. Sounds like reverse-racism and third worldism at once. I have no shame about being white. The crimes of the white bourgeosie are not my crimes.

[Azraella]

That was fucking stupid and that is all I have to say about that. Sounds like reverse-racism and third worldism at once. I have no shame about being white. The crimes of the white bourgeosie are not my crimes.

It's certainly third worldism but reverse racism? Nonsense. The default notion of "equal treatment" is going to be whatever white people consider equal treatment. (Similarly, in a world wherein people claim not to see, say, sex, the default notion of "equal treatment" is going to be whatever men consider equal treatment.) No consensus; no alternative view. In other words, because white people are the predominant group and because they are going to base their notions of "equal treatment" on their own experiences, without taking into account the relevance and validity of other people's experience -- and in fact outright denying that those experiences are as equally relevant and as equally valid as white experiences -- they are prejudiced against non-white conceptions of "equal treatment." Not only are they prejudiced against those conceptions (in the sense that they don't even really think about or consider them because it's just not worth the time and, look, we already have a ready-made conception of "equal treatment," so let's just go with that, shall we?), but because they are the predominant group, they also have the power to establish their exclusive conception as the norm. That is prejudice + power within a racial context. Therefore, racist.

Race may very well be a social construct, but that doesn't mean that the fact of race-based discrimination and oppression is somehow less real or less relevant than it would be if race were an essential human characteristic. Hell, wealth is a social construct, but that doesn't mean that the relative privilege for the wealthy and the relative disadvantage for the poor that result from that social construct don't actually have some actual bearing on our daily lives -- and it certainly doesn't mean that we should just treat everyone as though they're all equal regardless of their economic status (because, hey, it's just a social construct and so we shouldn't really consider the privileges and disadvantages that result from people's perceptions of that social construct).

I'm not saying race, sex, gender, etc. should be given special consideration at all. But that doesn't mean we should just try to ignore them altogether. Those things should be taken into consideration because they are relevant. Simply taking something into account isn't giving it special consideration, problem is that we aren't there yet as a society; in fact, we aren't even close to there yet. And as long as we live in a society where prejudice exists among people who use their power to normalize their prejudices, the differences between people and the variance of their experiences will always remain relevant.

[black magick hustla]

my experience with this type of arguments is that the people who spell them out are generally male and white. the real anti imperialist movement, that represent a real historic dynamic, generally make appeals to solidarity of struggles of the "white working class". for example, maoists in the third world have a positive view of #occupy.

[dodger]

"The white working class is not a vanguard revolutionary class, it is a backward parasitic class, which directly benefited from the enslavement, land theft, and dispossession of our ancestors in the Americas, Africa, Asia and Oceania. America is not Europe, and the social reality which produced this society is fundamentally different. Although the United States of America did invade countries in the Caribbean and all over Central and Latin America for land and peoples, it did not have to leave its shores to colonize or steal slaves like Europe. It is a white settler nation which has always maintained internal colonies. Know who you are, who the Euro-Amercans are, set the terms for cooperation, but do not allow terms to be set for you."

Thoughts? Reactions?

Goodness me ! Unclebananahead.....I rejoice, ma and pa threw the genetic dice///2x6's....bingo....there I was.. bluest of blue eyes, blond locks and the cutest pink bottom. I have changed very little over the last 64yrs. Some who reached the shores of the Americas were lucky enough to have their full name on a passenger list. I don't have any taste to regard anyone as a PERMANENT VICTIM...at least not on the basis of the colour of their skin. When class by its very nature is such an inclusive term...however it is used. Why the confusion? We put things into classes every day a bird watcher or pig breeder or engineer they would fail if they could not at least classify. Our objective membership of the working class might be a matter of joy to some. Others might throw up their hands in despair. The city of Chicago refuses to do business with companies connected to the slave trade. (BOYCOTT century or two, too, too, late!) How pious. Any chance of us all getting down to some serious reading about who we are, where and how our class came into existence. I have to ask the question, if colonies were such grand places, why did so many reach there in chains, oft times branded or tattooed? Indentured...CITY STREET KIDS....PEASANT CLEARANCES. TRADE UNIONISTS. The real history is a 1,000 times more exciting, challenging than hypocritical concerns for imagined virtue or victimhood. The real lessons, learned, more profound. Clever folk like Lenin and Engels, though not Marx saw in organized labour an aristocracy, Still held true by some ....discredited as an idea by others. To say a whole class is parasitical when it is so productive is perverse in the extreme. I admire the American working class it is disciplined and energized though poorly served by its capitalists. Unchained it will set the world ablaze.

[Belleraphone]

>Working Class
>Parasite Class
Pick one.

[tir1944]

No,unless you're a MTWist.
http://peoplesuniversity.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/mtw.png

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6660/mtwbday.png

http://shubelmorgan.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/paird.png

[tachosomoza]

Race is a social construct and a distractor.

[Nox]

The author sounds like a delusional Maoist Third Worldist looking for a scapegoat to blame his problems on.

Like someone else said before, he is a racist and therefore a reactionary.

[Jimmie Higgins]

"The white working class is not a vanguard revolutionary class, it is a backward parasitic class, which directly benefited from the enslavement, land theft, and dispossession of our ancestors in the Americas, Africa, Asia and Oceania.The missing part is also the encosure of lands, the forced labor of the poor in the form of kidnapping or sending debtors to work in colonies. All things the white elites of capitalism and late-feudal era did to the white populations.


America is not Europe, and the social reality which produced this society is fundamentally different. Although the United States of America did invade countries in the Caribbean and all over Central and Latin America for land and peoples, it did not have to leave its shores to colonize or steal slaves like Europe.Yes, the US did both. It also just took a lot of land from natives and Mexico and used colonists. It's strange to have to correct a 3rd worldist on that point.


It is a white settler nation which has always maintained internal colonies.It hasn't been a settler-state for some time. No one in the US - maybe in Alaska - is being given farm-land to settle in exchange for keeping down the local politicans. America is a regular imperialist capitalist nation-state now. The difference is that, for example, Israeli people get a material benefit from settlements because there are the settlers who get the free land and the government expenses and military expenses are paid for. The US population actually is in a worse position when the US is victorious in imperialism - it means that our ruling class has more power to supress us and spends money on weapons instead of welfare etc. Out of the wars in the middle east, what did US workers get? Lower wages and the PATRIOT ACT.

Capitalism is a parasitic system. One which uses racism and racial inequality to divide and rule the whole population.

[Os Cangaceiros]

http://shubelmorgan.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/paird.png

good luck defeating the 1st world with a crossbow.

[Oswy]

"The white working class is not a vanguard revolutionary class, it is a backward parasitic class, which directly benefited from the enslavement, land theft, and dispossession of our ancestors in the Americas, Africa, Asia and Oceania. America is not Europe, and the social reality which produced this society is fundamentally different. Although the United States of America did invade countries in the Caribbean and all over Central and Latin America for land and peoples, it did not have to leave its shores to colonize or steal slaves like Europe. It is a white settler nation which has always maintained internal colonies. Know who you are, who the Euro-Amercans are, set the terms for cooperation, but do not allow terms to be set for you."

Thoughts? Reactions?

The very concept of 'racial' difference is a bourgeois construct (there are no actual human 'races' in the strict biological sense). Beyond that, racial difference as a social construct is as much an imposition on people who happen to be 'white' as it is on those who happen to be 'black' or whatever. There's a danger of getting our logic mixed up here. Just because the centre of modern capitalist exploitation and alienation has been at the hands of a 'white' capitalist class and which generated a corresponding 'white' working class to service it, that doesn't mean we should reify the 'whiteness' issue. Ultimately, it's all about class, not skin colour.

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

(holding back something extremely racist)

[Commissar Rykov]

I never grow tired of the blabbering bullshit of the MTWist they truly are the intellectual elite of their scumpond.

[Tim Cornelis]

Lorenzo Kom'boa Ervin is actually not a white person, nor a Maoist.

He's a racist nonetheless.

"The white working class is not a vanguard revolutionary class, it is a backward parasitic class, which directly benefited from the enslavement, land theft, and dispossession of our ancestors in the Americas, Africa, Asia and Oceania."

I'm white and technically working class and did none of those things. I benefited from it, but so does my black neighbour who is just as rich as me.

"Know who you are, who the Euro-Americans are, set the terms for cooperation, but do not allow terms to be set for you"

I do agree with this. Black people should not make revolutions purely on the preconditions of white people. In any case, working class--black or white--should indeed cooperate.

[Ocean Seal]

So basically some rich MTW's decided that they didn't want to see the only bourgeois members of the movement so they decided that all whites were part of the bourgeoisie. What a great analysis :mad:.

Long story short, just more racist bullshit to allow the real exploiters (many MTW's) to get off scott free.

[scarletghoul]

As someone who upholds and is inspired by the work of marx lenin and mao, i have to say that this 'maoism third worldism' is fucking criminal, and the most disgusting insult to marxist theory since tony cliff. Fortunately it only exists on the internet, but its pretty annoying still, especially if it means some people new to marxist theory will confuse maoism with this third worldist nonsense.

And no, its not 'reverse racism', it is just racism. Its starting point is a profoundly anti-dialectical mode of thought which bases things on bourgeois statistics and categorisation, and it manifests itself in the racist fetishisation of brown crossbow-weilding 'noble savages'. its like the movie avatar, though instead of the crippled white man leading the natives and saving the day, it is middle class white basement dwellers on the internet

so yeah it is basically a huge piece of shit

[Jose Gracchus]

This brownie thinks this kind of rhetoric is all about getting me to properly follow "my" brown businessmen and community leaders. It is intrinsically a doctrine of the ethnically marginalized petty bourgeois.

[Tim Cornelis]

So basically some rich MTW's decided that they didn't want to see the only bourgeois members of the movement so they decided that all whites were part of the bourgeoisie. What a great analysis :mad:.

Long story short, just more racist bullshit to allow the real exploiters (many MTW's) to get off scott free.


As someone who upholds and is inspired by the work of marx lenin and mao, i have to say that this 'maoism third worldism' is fucking criminal, and the most disgusting insult to marxist theory since tony cliff.

I never grow tired of the blabbering bullshit of the MTWist they truly are the intellectual elite of their scumpond.

Again, the writer is not a white Maoist Third Worlder, he's a black anarchist.

[Commissar Rykov]

Again, the writer is not a white Maoist Third Worlder, he's a black anarchist.
Then he is a rather shitty one.

[#FF0000]

"The white working class is not a vanguard revolutionary class, it is a backward parasitic class, which directly benefited from the enslavement

This isn't true actually. Poor whites in the south during slavery might've been racist as fuck but they certainly didn't benefit from slavery -- and white workers in the North lived under another set of horrific conditions.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Again, the writer is not a white Maoist Third Worlder, he's a black anarchist.


Let's call it ATW-ism ... ie, anarchist third-worldism ... the belief that mobs of angry anarchists of color need to punish white workers today for the actions of racist white aristocrats and businessmen across all of history.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

"The white working class is not a vanguard revolutionary class, it is a backward parasitic class,

1st sign of racialist discourse: setting up absolute binary oppositions and reducing millions of individuals into fixed categories with "fundamental" traits based on erroneous pseudo-biology.


which directly benefited from the enslavement, land theft, and dispossession of our ancestors in the Americas, Africa, Asia and Oceania. European colonies were set up by and for the Métropole, not for the benefit of all Europeans. (If that had been the case, what could have caused the American Revolution?) Colonial possessions were convenient places to send the poor and the undesirables (Australia, for instance, was a penal colony). The so-called "white working class" in America has not directly benefited from the enslavement of non-white peoples. When undocumented workers are brought in to suppress wages, all workers suffer. When slave labor is used to supplement wage labor, workers lose their jobs. White privileges have systemically allowed so-called "white workers" on average more mobility and undeserved opportunity, but even then they are still servants of the capitalist system who share class-economic interests (the interests that matter) with the international working class, not their masters. By the same token, a few black faces in positions of power (Barack Obama, Oprah, Will Smith, Herman Cain) does not mean that we are in a "post-racial" society or that these privileged African-Americans have benefited from "their own" enslavement.


America is not Europe, and the social reality which produced this society is fundamentally different.What are the "fundamental differences" between the social realities of America and Europe?


Although the United States of America did invade countries in the Caribbean and all over Central and Latin America for land and peoples, it did not have to leave its shores to colonize or steal slaves like Europe. It is a white settler nation which has always maintained internal colonies. Why did the US invade the Phillippines then? Why is it in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and so on, with its European allies? The US is not "fundamentally different" from other imperialist powers. All operate on the same logic, which demands leaving its shores and colonizing other countries, which is why the US has done this continually for the last 200 years. European countries have likewise also maintained internal colonies. Roma people were enslaved from the middle of the 14th century into the 19th century in European countries from Scotland and England, to Spain, Portugal, Russia, and Romania. "Gypsy" slaves were considered the "negroes" of European monarchies. America is not unique in its maintenance of internal colonies. European countries were likewise settled and colonized by the empires of Greece and Rome. So much for being "fundamentally different."


Know who you are, who the Euro-Amercans are, set the terms for cooperation, but do not allow terms to be set for you."

Thoughts? Reactions?White supremacy cannot be destroyed by reducing a diverse group of people into a monolithic whole with imagined shared interests, i.e. that "white workers" are backwards parasites. That only reinforces racialist ideas. White supremacy can be destroyed by expanding the class consciousness to see legitimate shared material interests, to be made aware of shared exploitation and servitude.

"As long as you think you are white, there is no hope for you. Because as long as you think you’re white, I’m forced to think I’m black." - James Baldwin

[Sir Comradical]

"The white working class is not a vanguard revolutionary class, it is a backward parasitic class, which directly benefited from the enslavement, land theft, and dispossession of our ancestors in the Americas, Africa, Asia and Oceania. America is not Europe, and the social reality which produced this society is fundamentally different. Although the United States of America did invade countries in the Caribbean and all over Central and Latin America for land and peoples, it did not have to leave its shores to colonize or steal slaves like Europe. It is a white settler nation which has always maintained internal colonies. Know who you are, who the Euro-Amercans are, set the terms for cooperation, but do not allow terms to be set for you."

Thoughts? Reactions?

If they're working class then they can't be a parasitic class.

[Franz Fanonipants]

guys while mtwism is basically fucking crazypants white people you're fucking dumb if you don't think there's a race-class connection in post-colonial states like the US of A or indeed most of the world.

that said, yeah, a white american comrade is still a comrade.

[Vendetta]

If they're working class then they can't be a parasitic class.

This.

[tir1944]

guys while mtwism is basically fucking crazypants white people you're fucking dumb if you don't think there's a race-class connection in post-colonial states like the US of A or indeed most of the world.
You might elaborate more on this race-class connection,eh?

[Franz Fanonipants]

You might elaborate more on this race-class connection,eh?

Start with nineteenth century class constructs that resulted in most post-colonial nations with white bourgeois at their heads.

Demonstrate change over time and there are structures and systems in place enforcing that state of affairs.

Which is not to say that all whites = bourgeois or all internally colonized people in the US = proletarians.

e: "whiteness" is of course a debatable category in this situation as well but welp

[Grenzer]

A good Marxist knows that our primary object of analysis be class, not race. While it's undeniable that at least here in the United States, whites in general have a economically advantaged position compared to minorities, this should not be a point to be obsessed over.

I wish I could recall the exact source, but I remember reading during my studies of South Africa that since the end of Apartheid, the number of black bourgeois and other ethnicities has been rising in proportion to the number of white bourgeois, while those the demographic of those in dire poverty has remained pretty consistent.

[Jimmie Higgins]

No one in the US - maybe in Alaska - is being given farm-land to settle in exchange for keeping down the local politicans. Um, I meant populations. Weird typo though - and a funny mental image.

[dodger]

Um, I meant populations. Weird typo though - and a funny mental image.

No one in the US - maybe in Alaska - is being given farm-land to settle in exchange for keeping down the local politicans.

That's ok Jimmie...I took you to mean Sarah PALIN...R A D I C A L !!!!!

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

The quote is from a black nationalist turned anarchist. The working class isn't inherently a revolutionary vanguard class, but it has the potential to be. That's true even for the white American working class, and, as such, his quote is anti-revolutionary.

[Rainsborough]

Why are we even discussing this racist shit? If someone posted something that said "The Black working-class are parasites", it would have been removed as white nationalist, racist bollox straight away, and the person who posted it warned (at the very least). :mad:

[Kadir Ateş]

Ever heard of CLR James?

[Unclebananahead]

Apparently Mr. Kom'boa Ervin is a fairly active participant in the Facebook group, "Decolonize San Diego." It was there that I encountered this statement. I responded, and ended up getting in a back-and-forth with someone in the comments thread. I'll post it below. Any insights, analysis, or observations conducive to furthering my understanding of this sort of thing would be *greatly* appreciated

Me:
So a white janitor, mechanic, or Wal-Mart cashier is a parasite? I'm sorry, but if you throw words around like that, I can't imagine there being much in the way of working class unity. The bourgeoisie are much more loyal to themselves then they are to any conception of race. They'll gladly exploit, brutalize, and kill anyone if it means increasing their profits and protecting their wealth. Moreover, racism is an excellent means of keeping the working class divided, and preventing the sort of revolutionary movement from developing which will result in their undoing. Now it may be true that white workers do not suffer from the same structural discrimination that POC do, or share the same history of oppression, but this hardly makes a white worker a complicit parasite in those things.

Thread participant:
unfortunately, this privileging of class dialogue you are pushing for has only produced states that have sustained the same oppressions the capitalist ones do. the LGBTQ community and women in the USSR during(and post) WW2, china and its issues with the same, and the work camps for the LGBTQ in Cuba. In fact, cuba is really the only socialist state to actively work against this repression, and this is a much more recent development that took the community decades to convince the party leadership.

Me:
Just to be clear, I’m in no way diminishing the necessity for the white working class to actively support the liberation movements of POC. I just don’t buy that that’s the only role for white workers, that white is automatically synonymous with "parasite," or that this isn’t a project for common liberation.

Thread Participant:
when the discussion is about oppression in general, and people are talking about race, not only is it gouche to bring up poor whitey, but its also privileged as hell. 'well they have it shitty too!' no one is saying otherwise, but they do benefit from a system of oppression, regardless of how poor they are.

also, no one said anything about the sole role for white workers except in the context of liberation movements.

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

"The white working class is not a vanguard revolutionary class, it is a backward parasitic class, which directly benefited from the enslavement, land theft, and dispossession of our ancestors in the Americas, Africa, Asia and Oceania. America is not Europe, and the social reality which produced this society is fundamentally different. Although the United States of America did invade countries in the Caribbean and all over Central and Latin America for land and peoples, it did not have to leave its shores to colonize or steal slaves like Europe. It is a white settler nation which has always maintained internal colonies. Know who you are, who the Euro-Amercans are, set the terms for cooperation, but do not allow terms to be set for you."

Thoughts? Reactions?


Oh for fuck sake, what a load of racist tripe! Blanketing 'whites' in this manner is no different to Stormfront blaming Jews for all the world's ills and labelling blacks as inherently criminal. Plus, a simple study of history will show that pretty much no one outside the aristocracy benefited from imperialism.

[Rainsborough]

Originally Posted by Goti123 http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2289246#post2289246)
the writer is not a white Maoist Third Worlder, he's a black anarchist.

And this is an excuse?

[tir1944]

This guy was a MTWist before MTWism was even invented.:laugh:

[Franz Fanonipants]

Why are we even discussing this racist shit? If someone posted something that said "The Black working-class are parasites", it would have been removed as white nationalist, racist bollox straight away, and the person who posted it warned (at the very least). :mad:

cus when it comes to whites it isn't racist to acknowledge the historical trends i've discussed

go fucking home

[tir1944]

No you're wrong because(sorry for the oneliner mods)
http://raimd.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/dontblameme4.jpg?w=529&h=487

[Franz Fanonipants]

i mean like "settlers" is a p. good book

but yeah i mean other than the whole "amerikkka" deal there and the white criminals thing i don't think that any of us would disagree w/the message that american liberal ideals basically are oppressive and a channel for class warfare

[Franz Fanonipants]

folks basically do you think that like alex jones is basically an inversion of mtwists?

[Rainsborough]

cus when it comes to whites it isn't racist to acknowledge the historical trends i've discussed

go fucking home

?? So its racist if whites talk fascist crap, but not if others do so?
Hitler used history to give his crap a veneer of respectability, as does every reactionary, bullshit nationalist today.

go home yourself.

[Franz Fanonipants]

?? So its racist if whites talk fascist crap, but not if others do so?

because there is No Class Context for dissatisfaction w/economic and political white supremacy

[Jimmie Higgins]

?? So its racist if whites talk fascist crap, but not if others do so?
Hitler used history to give his crap a veneer of respectability, as does every reactionary, bullshit nationalist today.

If someone is making fascist arguments, then they are making fascist arguments. In my opinion 3rd worldism like the quote in the OP is not fascism, just really bad politics that misunderstand the relationship of racial and national oppression to modern class society.

Racism as a system of oppression (i.e. more than just bigotry or the prejudice of whatever induviduals against this or that group) is connected to how the ruling class maintains its position over the population. White Supremacy is a tactic by the ruling class in the US and other places to divide the working population against each-other and try and convince part of the population to side with the ruling class. The US ruling class has never promoted black-supremacy.

[Rainsborough]

If someone is making fascist arguments, then they are making fascist arguments. In my opinion 3rd worldism like the quote in the OP is not fascism, just really bad politics that misunderstand the relationship of racial and national oppression to modern class society.

Racism as a system of oppression (i.e. more than just bigotry or the prejudice of whatever induviduals against this or that group) is connected to how the ruling class maintains its position over the population. White Supremacy is a tactic by the ruling class in the US and other places to divide the working population against each-other and try and convince part of the population to side with the ruling class. The US ruling class has never promoted black-supremacy.

I totaly agree. However I fail to understand how by tarring all white working-class as parasites, is any different than claiming all black working-class are parasites?

[Rusty Shackleford]

white workers are no different any other workers. In some societies they may have the benefit of privilege but it doesn't mean white workers should be forgotten or whatever.

if the working class of oppressed and oppressing nationalities unite against capital then there is a revolutionary movement.

Russian workers fought alongside their sisters and brothers of all nationalities within the empire against the rule of capital and they won. And out of it came massive affirmative action programs and a decolonization of the oppressed nations.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I totaly agree. However I fail to understand how by tarring all white working-class as parasites, is any different than claiming all black working-class are parasites?

no one is seriously presenting that argument

[Rainsborough]

"The white working class is not a vanguard revolutionary class, it is a backward parasitic class, which directly benefited from the enslavement, land theft, and dispossession of our ancestors in the Americas, Africa, Asia and Oceania. America is not Europe, and the social reality which produced this society is fundamentally different. Although the United States of America did invade countries in the Caribbean and all over Central and Latin America for land and peoples, it did not have to leave its shores to colonize or steal slaves like Europe. It is a white settler nation which has always maintained internal colonies. Know who you are, who the Euro-Amercans are, set the terms for cooperation, but do not allow terms to be set for you."

Excuse me I thought that this was the argument of the opening post

[Franz Fanonipants]

Excuse me I thought that this was the argument of the opening post

it was a quote from another discussion not an argument presented to be defended.

p. much everyone said it was ridiculous without having to yell about "RACISM AGAINST WHITES"

[Jimmie Higgins]

I totaly agree. However I fail to understand how by tarring all white working-class as parasites, is any different than claiming all black working-class are parasites?Because when people (usually politicians or think-tanks) argue that blacks are parasites or immigrants are parasites, they are trying to turn workers against eachother in order to pass some repressive law or cut welfare or services to workers.

When people argue that US workers or white workers benefit from oppression of other people or are parasites they are basically lashing out at imperialism or inequality but have a bad conception of how these things fit into a class society.

In my view no workers benifit or have privilage in capitalism - some face more repression, but no one does better when the ruling class is sucessful and oppressing others. The racism against blacks in the US gutted social reforms like welfare and gave police a freer hand to repress people and built a huge prison system... whites aren't directly suffering as much, but they are much worse off because of racism in US society. The same goes for imperialism - are US workers better off because of the suffering of Iraqis? No, it's a bullshit argument first developed in the post WWII era when the US has a "guns and butter" policy.

[Manic Impressive]

The racism against blacks in the US gutted social reforms like welfare and gave police a freer hand to repress people and built a huge prison system... whites aren't directly suffering as much, but they are much worse off because of racism in US society.
that doesn't make much sense

Government cut welfare because of racism therefore african americans suffer more directly than white americans :confused:

Are there no whites on welfare? Or is welfare denied based on skin colour?

[graymouser]

There is absolutely a labor aristocracy in the United States, and it is disappointing that so many people seem hell-bent on denying it. And let's be honest: this labor aristocracy consists primarily of white workers, who are bought off by relative privilege. Racism absolutely exists among workers; I have a comrade who's worked for decades in the building trades and he will not hesitate to tell you how racist the unions can be.

However, the analysis in the OP is wrong on two levels. One, it treats white workers entirely too homogeneously; while the labor aristocracy is a layer of mostly white workers and union bureaucrats, not the entire white working class lives at the same level. This is not to say that white workers suffer the same oppression as black workers, or Latino workers, or any other oppressed nationality within the US, but there are different layers and it shouldn't be treated as an undifferentiated mass, on either side. Two, it ignores the fact that there are dynamics other than privilege at work - and that consciousness does not develop evenly or smoothly. Instead class consciousness is mostly a jagged and uneven process, with breaks occurring that do not map neatly to fixed categories. White workers can become radicalized, but that radicalization frequently takes unproductive forms.

The dismissal of the OP throughout this thread, is indicative of trends that I see throughout much of the US left. There is a tendency to put heads in the sand and deny that much of US history is criminal, and that much of the history of the US labor movement is shot through with racism. Denial is not the way to fix that. Racism is the beating heart of American capitalist rule, and fighting against it is a core task of the US left. There is a tendency to want to address it with naive color-blindness, which is inadequate and in truth counter-productive, because it does not recognize that there are deep and structural injustices faced by people of color. And I think that many of the replies in this thread embrace that color blindness, embrace that mentality, and it's a dead end politically. I'll go so far as to say that you would be better off taking the third-worldist approach, than to try and organize a color-blind revolution in the US today.

[Rainsborough]

There is absolutely a labor aristocracy in the United States, and it is disappointing that so many people seem hell-bent on denying it. And let's be honest: this labor aristocracy consists primarily of white workers, who are bought off by relative privilege. Racism absolutely exists among workers; I have a comrade who's worked for decades in the building trades and he will not hesitate to tell you how racist the unions can be.

However, the analysis in the OP is wrong on two levels. One, it treats white workers entirely too homogeneously; while the labor aristocracy is a layer of mostly white workers and union bureaucrats, not the entire white working class lives at the same level. This is not to say that white workers suffer the same oppression as black workers, or Latino workers, or any other oppressed nationality within the US, but there are different layers and it shouldn't be treated as an undifferentiated mass, on either side. Two, it ignores the fact that there are dynamics other than privilege at work - and that consciousness does not develop evenly or smoothly. Instead class consciousness is mostly a jagged and uneven process, with breaks occurring that do not map neatly to fixed categories. White workers can become radicalized, but that radicalization frequently takes unproductive forms.

The dismissal of the OP throughout this thread, is indicative of trends that I see throughout much of the US left. There is a tendency to put heads in the sand and deny that much of US history is criminal, and that much of the history of the US labor movement is shot through with racism. Denial is not the way to fix that. Racism is the beating heart of American capitalist rule, and fighting against it is a core task of the US left. There is a tendency to want to address it with naive color-blindness, which is inadequate and in truth counter-productive, because it does not recognize that there are deep and structural injustices faced by people of color. And I think that many of the replies in this thread embrace that color blindness, embrace that mentality, and it's a dead end politically. I'll go so far as to say that you would be better off taking the third-worldist approach, than to try and organize a color-blind revolution in the US today.

So is the argument that the white working-class is a unessecary dettriment to socialist revolution? Because as a white working-class male, with a white working-class family that gives me such a warm feeling within.

[ZeroNowhere]

Because when people (usually politicians or think-tanks) argue that blacks are parasites or immigrants are parasites, they are trying to turn workers against eachother in order to pass some repressive law or cut welfare or services to workers.

When people argue that US workers or white workers benefit from oppression of other people or are parasites they are basically lashing out at imperialism or inequality but have a bad conception of how these things fit into a class society.
'British jobs for British workers!'

Still just a bad conception.

[#FF0000]

Are there no whites on welfare? Or is welfare denied based on skin colour?

More white people are on welfare, numerically.

But apparently it's easier for white people to get on welfare or unemployment, and they tend to get better service out of it. I'll have to go find my sources though.


So is the argument that the white working-class is a unessecary dettriment to socialist revolution?

No that is not the argument.

[La Comédie Noire]

That sections of the white working class are privileged I do not deny, nor do I deny that by simply being white even the poorest of the poor have it better than their black and Latino counter parts. However, that this privilege is something eternal and true for all time and places I do not accept.

Having said that, racism and chauvinism is the number one problem with the working class today, especially the white working classes of the industrialized nations. I think it can be argued that the waning of this privilege is the direct result of the "too much pc!" hysteria that's gripping the media today. Even little gestures like not using the N word or affirmative action have caused a heavy back lash by politicians and even white workers themselves.

Unionized workers especially can be racist because the capitalist class uses cheap immigrant labor to break their power.


So is the argument that the white working-class is a unessecary dettriment to socialist revolution? I wouldn't say it's inevitable that they will be a detriment, but going on history it's going to be tough to make them see that their privilege under capitalism is temporary and that it's decline is not the fault of Blacks, Latinos, or even hippie students.

[Revolution starts with U]

I'll give up my whiteness as soon as that option is available to me... how about that? What's the point of this argument? What should I, as a white working class person that supports the socialist movement, do, seeing as how I'm inherently a part of the oppressor class?

Is it my whiteness that makes me a part of that class? If not, what's the point of this?

[graymouser]

So is the argument that the white working-class is a unessecary dettriment to socialist revolution? Because as a white working-class male, with a white working-class family that gives me such a warm feeling within.
No, that's not what I said. Socialist revolution in the United States will not happen without an intense and direct struggle against all forms of racism, both in the ruling class and in their bought-off segments of the working class (i.e. the labor aristocracy). Racism has to be fought actively, forthrightly and with the understanding that we as white folks don't get a cookie for being anti-racists. Many of the best fighters against capitalism will not be white men in hard hats - and I often get the feeling that it's exactly those men who a lot of socialists think are the "heavy battalions" of labor.

The reason I get so pissed off about it, is the white left is in deep denial about the black left. Socialist Action supports the right of self-determination among African Americans, which means we do work with black folks who have views similar to what was in the OP. And to be honest - while I don't agree, I can't really blame them. The majority of the white left is self-absorbed and wears blinders against a lot of issues that impact directly on the lives of black people, and when these sort of leftists turn around and start calling oppressed people "racists" it gets me upset.

[dodger]

. A special advantage, immunity, permission, right, or benefit granted to or enjoyed by an individual, class, or caste. See Synonyms at right.
b. Such an advantage, immunity, or right held as a prerogative of status or rank, and exercised to the exclusion or detriment of others.
A dictionary answer to privilege ...If I knew that the USA was not just the land of the free but also the free lunch...I'd have come over sooner. Surely capitalists are the same over, they can but seek profit, 24/7 at that. I don't know anywhere that workers do not have to struggle for every pay increase every social benefit. Those who elect to organize collectively do better....those who's skill or craft are in short supply ditto. Bosses dread skilled workers not embrace them. Take a look at the country houses in Britain, thats where the loot goes. The phoney argument also conveniently ignored the awkward fact that the standard of living of the working class was higher in certain countries (Sweden, Denmark) which had no colonies, but lower in countries which had large colonial territories (France, Belgium Portugal and Spain) .The tentacles of the US have spread far and wide only to see a 30% drop in wages.....Some bribe! Sorry folks we are all in the same leaky boat. The less people working means that fewer will be on the oars.....they will have to pull harder. There was aspects of the system I and others were prepared to push against but when push came to shove, hell, we just dam well learned to live with it. Events have overtaken us all, capitalism is in decline, some call it absolute decline. The notion of privilege runs counter to everything I know and have experienced. I reject the idea. Lets turn our backs on ideas of race too . Does anyone truly think that a Sikh turban, rasta hat, Jewish skull cap or bowler hat have never been seen on a picket line before? I may be a voice in the wilderness but I point blank refuse to obsess about the colour of a persons skin. happily enough I worked with men and women who thought the same. "WHERE'S THE TEA YOU LAZY BLACK SHIT?"..."Get to work on time you dopey white skunt...and you could have had some!".....I miss work sometimes....but not often.....

[black magick hustla]

guys while mtwism is basically fucking crazypants white people you're fucking dumb if you don't think there's a race-class connection in post-colonial states like the US of A or indeed most of the world.

that said, yeah, a white american comrade is still a comrade.

yea. my basic position is basically early clr james. race is there but there is a difference when anti-racist struggle becomes a class issue, or when it is identity politic (DRUM and ghetto riots come to mind vs weirdo college campaigns for chicano-latino studies or whatever)

[NewLeft]

White priviledge is a reality, but the term parasitic should be rejected. Understanding the differences is what civil rights activists like Angela Davis wanted to see and it's clearly a more reasonable approach..

In academic sense, whites can't really claim 'racism' since whites are not systemically discrimnated. But prejudice against whites can exist.

[dodger]

White priviledge is a reality, but the term parasitic should be rejected. Understanding the differences is what civil rights activists like Angela Davis wanted to see and it's clearly a more reasonable approach..

In academic sense, whites can't really claim 'racism' since whites are not systemically discrimnated. But prejudice against whites can exist.

So LEFT...lets not be too academic with the truth...discrimination and prejudice. An honest to goodness look at it in Britain, who exactly could possibly object to a Caribbean marrying his sweetheart?

A 1997 Survey showed that only 13% of white Britons said they would have a problem if a relative married an Afro-Caribbean; 32% of Asians, 29% of Jews. So white Britons are the least racist, and the extent of interracial relationships proves the point.
Surprised me too...I certainly thought the objections would be significantly higher amongst the Jewish and Asians quizzed. An eye opener, just goes to show, sometimes I just don't give people enough credit. Don't yer think?
For decades, after all, the urban white working class has largely been educated in multiracial schools, worked in multiracial environments, and lived in multiracial neighbourhoods. Many may not have wanted this, and many more escaped it in the form of `white flight', but many more accepted it.
Employers don't employ immigrants out of compassion but because they're cheaper. Workers don't oppose mass immigration out of racism but because immigration cuts wages.
History has moved on since Nazisms destruction, and all Europeans have other problems to deal with now, principally the threat to their nations sovereignty posed by Economic and Monetary Union. The call is for British jobs for British workers. Don't get apoplexy....It's N O T ....Afghan jobs for British workers. 70% of the British people oppose mass immigration. Are they all wrong?

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Employers don't employ immigrants out of compassion but because they're cheaper. Workers don't oppose mass immigration out of racism but because immigration cuts wages.

Workers ARE immigrating en masse; how can workers oppose themselves? When a privileged group of workers (xenophobic citizens) opposes a disadvantaged group of workers (foreigners), the working class (who are both citizens and foreigners) is weak and the ruling class wins. Immigration does not cut wages; capitalists cut wages. Racism, or its brother nationalism, are indeed what causes opposition to immigration.


History has moved on since Nazisms destruction, and all Europeans have other problems to deal with now, principally the threat to their nations sovereignty posed by Economic and Monetary Union. The call is for British jobs for British workers. Don't get apoplexy....It's N O T ....Afghan jobs for British workers. 70% of the British people oppose mass immigration. Are they all wrong?

How can there be "national sovereignty" when the interests of workers and bosses within the nation are diametrically opposed? The mythical idea that supreme power lies with the whole "nation" and not with its ruling class is a pure class collaborationist fairy tale. "British jobs for British workers" means exclusion of non-British workers and is therefore a divisive anti-working class slogan. For the same reason, why should British workers not be permitted to work in France, Italy, or anywhere else, if they can find a better job there? Next will you be arguing for national [racial] "purity"? What is a "British worker" anyways? Are the children of immigrant workers also subject to the same restrictions/exclusions/disadvantages you want to place on their parents? Is Britain not a wholly arbitrary designation? Why not "Welsh jobs for Welsh workers", "European jobs for European workers", "Eurasian jobs for Eurasian workers", "Earth jobs for Earth workers", etc?

[dodger]

Thank you for your reply PAN...I'll try to take up some of the thoughtful points you have made. I think most people know Britain, long a trading nation and colonial power, has drawn people from the 4 corners of the planet. POLITICAL REFUGEES at various times have found shelter.I am not talking decades but many hundreds of years. That's who we are, visit any classroom or workplace or indeed restaurant(not all fish and chips). It hardly needs me to say that all, yes ALL who reside and work within Britain are members of the British working class. How could it be otherwise. Ideas of racial purity were discredited even before I was born hardly profitable to bring them up for discussion,now.
No worker should be discriminated against or disadvantaged, that is a bizarre concept.

The class collaboration, I see, is giving succour to those capitalists who wish to import cheap labour. Well they do , don't they? It is a fascist dream(MOSLEY) Europe without borders capital moving freely. I do not wish to be ruled from Brussels by unelected plutocrats nor do I favour finding myself part of a triumvirate of failed colonial powers huddling together to reclaim old glories. I was not even shown the courtesy of voting, expressing my opinion on integration into EU. I have to say PAN if groups of workers over many years can bring up the subject of mass immigration without mentioning the 'R' word...why cant we? I reject as do others who work for a living, privilege, bordering on the tragi- comical, in my book. As I understand it workers make up in excess of 95% of the nations that have fully embraced capitalism. I would say we are the nation. Also it has to be said there is nothing arbitrary about Britain's borders....we are after all an island. I am British and such as it is I have my culture. It has enabled me to survive 64yrs. Nor would I begrudge or wish to downplay others. Flag waving I leave to Richard Branson and other tax exiles. If Italian or Greek workers wish to proclaim jobs for their own citizens, no sour looks from me. British workers have few illusions where power resides. Though I no longer believe do they have anything like a firm grip. The market. The military all looking shaky. Yes we must and are settling accounts with our own bosses. How could it be otherwise? Xenophobic citizens....groups you say....70% of the country.... oppose mass immigration. Painting legitimate concerns or worse ignoring is the path to ruin. There are some, not many fishing in troubled waters. Hanging the race or xenophobic label on 70%of Britons, how can I put it politely, is inviting rejection and resentment. Was there a wave that passed over me, did people have a conversion? Race hatred. Rev left put out figures.. 84% of Muslims are happy with their neighbours, I was not surprised that has been my experience. My neighbours boy left school a year ago ,do I tell him not to be racist or xenophobic 'cos he ain't gotta job yet? Pole has got it (statistically a certainty). 'Cos he is a Muslim?....No the employer wants cheap labour. Many thousands like that boy. What do I say to him? No doubt a few of them were in those riots, some no doubt are doing time. What a waste....IMPORT CHEAP LABOUR AT A TIME LIKE THIS....have we all lost our senses?
If you are sniffing out fascism go to Westminster or Whitehall, you'll have better luck there than Dagenham or Barking.........WE are not all CHAVS you know.......apologies if I did not address all your points.....happy to clarify further points you might wish to bring up...later...thanks

[#FF0000]

know what would keep folks from using undocumented workers as cheap labor

opening borders so they could immigrate legally.

[Rainsborough]

know what would keep folks from using undocumented workers as cheap labor

opening borders so they could immigrate legally.

Right, but surely it's better to address the reasons why they become immigrants (legal or not)?

[#FF0000]

Right, but surely it's better to address the reasons why they become immigrants (legal or not)?

yup

in north america: repeal nafta, pass full decriminalization of all drugs, open the borders: and people will no longer find it necessary to risk their lives running across a desert or trusting their lives to criminals so they can do day labor for starvation wages somewhere else.

[tir1944]

Some capitalists actually welcome illegal immigration to a some degree because it gives them cheap and completely unprotected workforce to to the hardest jobs.
If these people don't work their asses off the owner can report them,they get deported but 10 more are already waiting for the job "opportunity".
IMO at least/from what i know.

[Rainsborough]

yup

in north america: repeal nafta, pass full decriminalization of all drugs, open the borders: and people will no longer find it necessary to risk their lives running across a desert or trusting their lives to criminals so they can do day labor for starvation wages somewhere else.

I wonder how the workers of America (whatever their colour) would feel about that?

[RadioRaheem84]

The OP's quote is irresponsible and will alienate people to the socialist cause if parroted.

The first slaves were white eastern european. The first imperial venture by Great Britain was neighboring Ireland.

As these nations grew through colonizing and enslaving white people, racism against other people was used in order to get the absorbed colonies to support the rape of distant lands and as a means to justify it's imperialism.

[black magick hustla]

Thank you for your reply PAN...I'll try to take up some of the thoughtful points you have made. I think most people know Britain, long a trading nation and colonial power, has drawn people from the 4 corners of the planet. POLITICAL REFUGEES at various times have found shelter.I am not talking decades but many hundreds of years. That's who we are, visit any classroom or workplace or indeed restaurant(not all fish and chips). It hardly needs me to say that all, yes ALL who reside and work within Britain are members of the British working class. How could it be otherwise. Ideas of racial purity were discredited even before I was born hardly profitable to bring them up for discussion,now.
No worker should be discriminated against or disadvantaged, that is a bizarre concept.

The class collaboration, I see, is giving succour to those capitalists who wish to import cheap labour. Well they do , don't they? It is a fascist dream(MOSLEY) Europe without borders capital moving freely. I do not wish to be ruled from Brussels by unelected plutocrats nor do I favour finding myself part of a triumvirate of failed colonial powers huddling together to reclaim old glories. I was not even shown the courtesy of voting, expressing my opinion on integration into EU. I have to say PAN if groups of workers over many years can bring up the subject of mass immigration without mentioning the 'R' word...why cant we? I reject as do others who work for a living, privilege, bordering on the tragi- comical, in my book. As I understand it workers make up in excess of 95% of the nations that have fully embraced capitalism. I would say we are the nation. Also it has to be said there is nothing arbitrary about Britain's borders....we are after all an island. I am British and such as it is I have my culture. It has enabled me to survive 64yrs. Nor would I begrudge or wish to downplay others. Flag waving I leave to Richard Branson and other tax exiles. If Italian or Greek workers wish to proclaim jobs for their own citizens, no sour looks from me. British workers have few illusions where power resides. Though I no longer believe do they have anything like a firm grip. The market. The military all looking shaky. Yes we must and are settling accounts with our own bosses. How could it be otherwise? Xenophobic citizens....groups you say....70% of the country.... oppose mass immigration. Painting legitimate concerns or worse ignoring is the path to ruin. There are some, not many fishing in troubled waters. Hanging the race or xenophobic label on 70%of Britons, how can I put it politely, is inviting rejection and resentment. Was there a wave that passed over me, did people have a conversion? Race hatred. Rev left put out figures.. 84% of Muslims are happy with their neighbours, I was not surprised that has been my experience. My neighbours boy left school a year ago ,do I tell him not to be racist or xenophobic 'cos he ain't gotta job yet? Pole has got it (statistically a certainty). 'Cos he is a Muslim?....No the employer wants cheap labour. Many thousands like that boy. What do I say to him? No doubt a few of them were in those riots, some no doubt are doing time. What a waste....IMPORT CHEAP LABOUR AT A TIME LIKE THIS....have we all lost our senses?
If you are sniffing out fascism go to Westminster or Whitehall, you'll have better luck there than Dagenham or Barking.........WE are not all CHAVS you know.......apologies if I did not address all your points.....happy to clarify further points you might wish to bring up...later...thanks
today "free immigration" is cardinal point, it is isomorphic to WWI opposition. anyone who is not for free immigration has crossed the class line into national chauvinism, the "britsh jobs for british workers" types. fuck you, its not our fault we where not born places built upon centuries of imperialist accumulation.

[#FF0000]

I wonder how the workers of America (whatever their colour) would feel about that?

On it's face most people hate it. But if you look at it and aren't a fucking idiot then it makes sense. NAFTA has stagnated wages on the entire continent for the past two decades. Prohibition of drugs has given rise to brutal narcotics cartels in South America and Mexico. And the fact that working class people who have no family in the States have no legal way to immigrate here means they, out of desperation, immigrate illegally, making them easy to exploit for cheap labor.

HERE COMES THE CLUE TRAIN -- LAST STOP: YOU

IF they were legal citizens, they would have to be paid the same as anyone else. They would have the same legal protection as everyone else.

But this wouldn't even really matter if the other two happened. There'd be less of a reason to want to emigrate, then.

BUT HEY! let's not worry about thinking and reasoning. Just throw out dumb phrases like "yeh what wud the wrkers think huehuahuehua". I mean, shit, we all know that the American working class is so strong and conscious today. And it's not like any of them are Mexican. And we all know that argumentum ad populum is the soundest kind of argument.

in closing



fuck



you

[Rainsborough]

On it's face most people hate it. But if you look at it and aren't a fucking idiot then it makes sense. NAFTA has stagnated wages on the entire continent for the past two decades. Prohibition of drugs has given rise to brutal narcotics cartels in South America and Mexico. And the fact that working class people who have no family in the States have no legal way to immigrate here means they, out of desperation, immigrate illegally, making them easy to exploit for cheap labor.

HERE COMES THE CLUE TRAIN -- LAST STOP: YOU

IF they were legal citizens, they would have to be paid the same as anyone else. They would have the same legal protection as everyone else.

But this wouldn't even really matter if the other two happened. There'd be less of a reason to want to emigrate, then.

BUT HEY! let's not worry about thinking and reasoning. Just throw out dumb phrases like "yeh what wud the wrkers think huehuahuehua". I mean, shit, we all know that the American working class is so strong and conscious today. And it's not like any of them are Mexican. And we all know that argumentum ad populum is the soundest kind of argument.

in closing



fuck



you

And you too. I just hope you dont kiss children with that mouth.

The majority of workers in Europe are, whether you like it or not, white. If you insist on waving words like racist at any worker group that worries about the future of them and their family, congratulations you drive them into the waiting and willing arms of idiots like the BNP or worse. Stop attempting to make every generation of white working class feel guilty over the crimes of an imperial past that only benefitted a select few, and not the majority of whites as you seem to think.
Stop trying to replace a vision of white privilege with minority privilege. The revolution will not happen if the majority of white working class are continualy abused by a handfull of bigots, who seriously believe that race is more important that class.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Stop trying to replace a vision of white privilege with minority privilege. The revolution will not happen if the majority of white working class are continualy abused by a handfull of bigots, who seriously believe that race is more important that class.

you fucking white supremacist dick

No One Is Seriously Proposing This.

[Rainsborough]

you fucking white supremacist dick

No One Is Seriously Proposing This.

Up yours too, and watch your mouth and who you are calling a white supremacist. :cursing:

But hey, dont start the old name calling, finish this thread routine. Some of you started this debate, try and finish it logicaly. Try presenting a sensible argument that we can take offer to a working class scared of what the future might hold. Instead of simply screaming racist, zenophobe, fascist or nazi, like a child who can't get their way.

The workers of the world need a socialist revolution, what are you offering?

[graymouser]

And you too. I just hope you dont kiss children with that mouth.

The majority of workers in Europe are, whether you like it or not, white. If you insist on waving words like racist at any worker group that worries about the future of them and their family, congratulations you drive them into the waiting and willing arms of idiots like the BNP or worse. Stop attempting to make every generation of white working class feel guilty over the crimes of an imperial past that only benefitted a select few, and not the majority of whites as you seem to think.
Stop trying to replace a vision of white privilege with minority privilege. The revolution will not happen if the majority of white working class are continualy abused by a handfull of bigots, who seriously believe that race is more important that class.
Racism is a key component of capitalist class rule in every advanced country. It cannot be overcome with simplistic platitudes about class over race; racism needs to be fought actively in all of its forms, individual and institutional, conscious and unconscious, in a continuous struggle both before and after the revolution. The roots of racism are deep and need to be consciously opposed, and white supremacy challenged even in the workers' movement and among those who think themselves otherwise progressive.

One aspect that a lot of white leftists simply don't get is that a lot of the black community doesn't trust them, and prefers to form its own organizations. When you turn around and call people who are reacting against oppression that they have faced their whole lives "racist" because they are alienating the ever so delicate sensibilities of white people, you are alienating some of the genuine fighters against this whole criminal system. Speaking as a white man, white people need to stop being so goddamn thin skinned. If the white working class can't take some criticism over how it has been white folks doing the vast majority of the awful shit in history, committing genocide, waging war, creating massive worldwide systems of oppression, then they sure as hell aren't going to be able to make a revolution against those very systems.

[Rainsborough]

Racism is a key component of capitalist class rule in every advanced country. It cannot be overcome with simplistic platitudes about class over race; racism needs to be fought actively in all of its forms, individual and institutional, conscious and unconscious, in a continuous struggle both before and after the revolution. The roots of racism are deep and need to be consciously opposed, and white supremacy challenged even in the workers' movement and among those who think themselves otherwise progressive.

One aspect that a lot of white leftists simply don't get is that a lot of the black community doesn't trust them, and prefers to form its own organizations. When you turn around and call people who are reacting against oppression that they have faced their whole lives "racist" because they are alienating the ever so delicate sensibilities of white people, you are alienating some of the genuine fighters against this whole criminal system. Speaking as a white man, white people need to stop being so goddamn thin skinned. If the white working class can't take some criticism over how it has been white folks doing the vast majority of the awful shit in history, committing genocide, waging war, creating massive worldwide systems of oppression, then they sure as hell aren't going to be able to make a revolution against those very systems.

Absolutely, racism is used as an effective ‘divide and rule’ mechanism for the continuation of capitalist rule, keep the workers divided and it’s easier to control them. And defining a particular worker by his or her colour, background or sexuality is of little real consequence, other than to perpetuate the racist, xenophobic, sexist nonsense that has effectively divided the working class throughout the decades. For the capitalist (many of whom now come from the groups you see as oppressed) the colour of the worker is of little consequence to him, other than to provide a means of maintaining his control of the workforce through fear of replacement by a cheaper worker (not necessarily of a different colour)

You say, and rightly, that many within the coloured community do not trust whites, whether workers or not, but how do we address that? For at least forty years, to my memory, that has been a burning issue and we seem no closer to the answer now than we were then. Because believe me, an answer has to be found or we are destined to live in fear and oppression for ever. How do we convince them that the vast majority of 21st century white working class, rather than being the beneficiaries of a history of imperialism and colonialism, are subject to oppression as well? There are as many within the coloured community that ‘hate’ the white man as rabidly as any within the white community. Hatred knows no colour bar, and no matter how we kick and scream in denial, the fact is that racism is a knife with two edges. Also you are right, there are white supremacists within the workers movement, as there are black supremacists, its just that it is easy to point the finger at ‘white supremacists’ while making excuses for their coloured counterparts. For example white nationalism = bad, black nationalism = understandable.

I ask again, and I will keep asking, how do we go to the working class of Britain, a working class that is predominantly white, and bring them to revolutionary socialism when they see the left as being largely irrelevant to anything other than minority issues? How do we convince them that socialism is the only answer to the global situation (economic and social) when they see socialism in the most part as being only for the benefit of minority groups?

[Jimmie Higgins]

that doesn't make much sense

Government cut welfare because of racism therefore african americans suffer more directly than white americans :confused: Well with welfare, yes taken as a group, they suffer more from welfare and get stigmatized more for welfare as if when white people are on welfare they have "fallen on hard times" but when blacks are on welfare they are seen as "gaming the system" or "lazy".

But take my other example of repression - it's much more clear. The US used racist concepts in the "war on drugs/war on crime" to separate the population into groups to be attacked. Black people faced the brunt of the propaganda and the resulting effects because the police had a free hand in attacking people on the street and even when they are caught on film shooting an innocent kid, there is enough racism and mixed ideas in the general population that a nasty and surprisingly large chunk of people still believe that the innocent kid "must have done something to deserve it" (both white/Latino/Asian people and black people will blame the victim in these cases).

So for young black people the result is: racial profiling, and exodus of the city tax base for schools, cuts to services including education, all the while the state is then using tax money to fund prisons. Police are glorified and given carte blanche.

Young blacks and native americans face the worse of this but obviously asians, whites, and latinos are also caught up in a major way. But in general what do all workers get from this? They get less social services and a better armed repressive state... just look at how 30 years of this kind of thing means for labor and social movements in Oakland on Oct 25th.


Are there no whites on welfare? Or is welfare denied based on skin colour?Yes more whites numerically are on welfare, but blacks and Latinos and native Americans are on welfare in higher percentages. You can't get rid of welfare if it is still a popular, so they create a scapegoat (in the case of welfare, the racist concept of black "welfare queens") to attack in order to gut the program for everyone. To me this is an argument for both how some groups face extra-oppression in society while ultimately no group of workers are privilaged by this set-up because we all suffer.


White priviledge is a reality, but the term parasitic should be rejected. Understanding the differences is what civil rights activists like Angela Davis wanted to see and it's clearly a more reasonable approach.How is privilage a reality? It is an academic theory of how oppression works in modern society. In my opinion, not a very convincing theory or one that is very useful in dismantling and taking on the roots of oppression. No doubt oppression is a reality, but does privilage theory really explain how oppression works and how to fight it? Most privilege adherents suggest the way to stop oppression is for the non-oppressed to acknowledge their "privilege". Is it really a problem that white people can walk down the road and not get harassed by the police? Is it really a problem that straights can hold hands without being kicked out of a restaurant or threatened by thugs? If people insist on using this liberal privilage theory language, then we need to flip it and say we want to fight for everyone to be equally privileged. At any rate, I think this is a non-marxist way of looking at oppression and basically a concept more useful for getting published in academic journals (i.e. it's all about explaining, not fighting) than actually challenging or ending oppression.


whites can't really claim 'racism' since whites are not systemically discrimnated. But prejudice against whites can exist.100% agree.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I ask again, and I will keep asking, how do we go to the working class of Britain, a working class that is predominantly white, and bring them to revolutionary socialism when they see the left as being largely irrelevant to anything other than minority issues? How do we convince them that socialism is the only answer to the global situation (economic and social) when they see socialism in the most part as being only for the benefit of minority groups? The same way we convince people that business policies are actually not in their interests even though most of the working class, in absence of any seemingly viable opportunity, has been at least swayed by these bourgie ideologies.

We should work with the people who are moving in our direction on these issues, fight in practice for things that will help the working class and help movements win, and build people's own confidence so that they start thinking in independent terms.

Specifically we have to argue to people not facing special oppression (like race, nationality, sexuality) that their normal oppression is connected to that racism, sexism, anti-immigrant, etc.

Or as Marx put it:


And most important of all! Every industrial and commercial centre in England now possesses a working class divided into two hostile camps, English proletarians and Irish proletarians. The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker he regards himself as a member of the ruling nation and consequently he becomes a tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself. He cherishes religious, social, and national prejudices against the Irish worker. His attitude towards him is much the same as that of the “poor whites” to the Negroes in the former slave states of the U.S.A.. The Irishman pays him back with interest in his own money. He sees in the English worker both the accomplice and the stupid tool of the English rulers in Ireland.


This antagonism is artificially kept alive and intensified by the press, the pulpit, the comic papers, in short, by all the means at the disposal of the ruling classes. This antagonism is the secret of the impotence of the English working class, despite its organisation. It is the secret by which the capitalist class maintains its power. And the latter is quite aware of this.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

And you too. I just hope you dont kiss children with that mouth.

The majority of workers in Europe are, whether you like it or not, white. If you insist on waving words like racist at any worker group that worries about the future of them and their family, congratulations you drive them into the waiting and willing arms of idiots like the BNP or worse.

A "worker group" that identifies as white and is worried about the future of "them" (them being "workers of the white race") are not our comrades. "Whiteness" is an pseudo-scientific illusion invented for the express purpose of dividing people and making "whites" feel superior to others. Any "worker group" that is worried about the destruction of this "white race" is already at best terribly out of touch with reality ("whites" continue to hold more social power and dominance) and at worst, lost to the paranoid delusions of far right maniacs. Any "worker group" that is more concerned with maintaining those divisions than with destroying them is our class enemy because those divisions serve the interests of the ruling class.

Just for reference, the "worker group" you are talking about that worries about the future of "them" has a slogan which summarizes your argument here quite well:

"We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White Children. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words)"


Stop attempting to make every generation of white working class feel guilty over the crimes of an imperial past that only benefitted a select few, and not the majority of whites as you seem to think.

One should feel guilty for identifying with (thus preserving) a pseudo-scientific construction of the ruling class which has historically been used and continues to be used (in the context of the wars on drugs, gangs, and terrorism) for the enslavement of other human beings. It is morally wrong to feel good about being white. It is an affirmation of oppression. Fuck white pride.


Stop trying to replace a vision of white privilege with minority privilege. The revolution will not happen if the majority of white working class are continualy abused by a handfull of bigots, who seriously believe that race is more important that class.

Nor will the revolution happen if the majority of people identifying as "the working class" think they are white, or if so-called "revolutionists" operate under the belief that "the majority of workers (...) are, whether you like it or not, white." I couldn't care less about the "European [white] working class" if it means ignoring the rest of the class. And you are ignoring the rest of the working class when you assume whites are the majority. The working class is global, not European. If your aim here is "European working class revolution", you might as well go on to Stormfront or some other such bullshit. Here our goal is worldwide socialist revolution. The majority of the working class (not its European subdivison), are not white. White privilege is minority privilege. It is precisely this ethnocentric tendency to assimilate "working class" to "white majority" and "non-whites" with "minorities" which is responsible for alienating non-whites and perpetuating national chauvinism.

Class generally supersedes race in importance as a determining factor, but your approach emphasizes class to the detriment of addressing racial inequality. European working class values are not the working class values.

[#FF0000]

The majority of workers in Europe are, whether you like it or not, white. If you insist on waving words like racist at any worker group that worries about the future of them and their family, congratulations you drive them into the waiting and willing arms of idiots like the BNP or worse.

What? Who am I calling racist for worrying about "the future of themselves and their family"? Can you give me one example of this -- anywhere!?

I haven't even called anyone racist. I'm just saying that institutional, systematic racism still exists -- it is still a problem, and it still affects people.


Stop attempting to make every generation of white working class feel guilty over the crimes of an imperial past that only benefitted a select few, and not the majority of whites as you seem to think.
How about you address me and not the strawman you set up here? I'm not blaming "white people" for anything. I'm saying that racism still exists, and that ethnic minorities still suffer from it -- whether that racism is past or present.


Stop trying to replace a vision of white privilege with minority privilege. The revolution will not happen if the majority of white working class are continualy abused by a handfull of bigots, who seriously believe that race is more important that class.this has nothing to do with anything i have posted here, or anywhere else. pointing out that racism still affects non-white peoples is not "blaming white people". It is not "racist". It is not about making people guilty.

And no one said "race is more important than class"

Address the things the actual people you are talking to said, and not what the paranoid voice in your head says.

[#FF0000]

But hey, dont start the old name calling, finish this thread routine. Some of you started this debate, try and finish it logicaly.

You first, bud. You have done nothing but put words in people's mouths this entire time. You do it whenever someone brings up race. You are first to come out crying about how everyone is racist against white people EVEN IN A THREAD WHERE EVERYONE IS ARGUING AGAINST THE STATEMENT THAT "WHITE PEOPLE ARE A PARASITIC CLASS"

[Hivemind]

Fuck white pride.

I'll do you one better and say fuck race pride. It's the same thing to me as nationalism. Being proud of being something that you had no control over (what you are born as, and where) is fucking stupid to me.

[Rainsborough]

A "worker group" that identifies as white and is worried about the future of "them" (them being "workers of the white race") are not our comrades. "Whiteness" is an pseudo-scientific illusion invented for the express purpose of dividing people and making "whites" feel superior to others. Any "worker group" that is worried about the destruction of this "white race" is already at best terribly out of touch with reality ("whites" continue to hold more social power and dominance) and at worst, lost to the paranoid delusions of far right maniacs. Any "worker group" that is more concerned with maintaining those divisions than with destroying them is our class enemy because those divisions serve the interests of the ruling class.

Just for reference, the "worker group" you are talking about that worries about the future of "them" has a slogan which summarizes your argument here quite well:

"We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White Children. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words)"



One should feel guilty for identifying with (thus preserving) a pseudo-scientific construction of the ruling class which has historically been used and continues to be used (in the context of the wars on drugs, gangs, and terrorism) for the enslavement of other human beings. It is morally wrong to feel good about being white. It is an affirmation of oppression. Fuck white pride.



Nor will the revolution happen if the majority of people identifying as "the working class" think they are white, or if so-called "revolutionists" operate under the belief that "the majority of workers (...) are, whether you like it or not, white." I couldn't care less about the "European [white] working class" if it means ignoring the rest of the class. And you are ignoring the rest of the working class when you assume whites are the majority. The working class is global, not European. If your aim here is "European working class revolution", you might as well go on to Stormfront or some other such bullshit. Here our goal is worldwide socialist revolution. The majority of the working class (not its European subdivison), are not white. White privilege is minority privilege. It is precisely this ethnocentric tendency to assimilate "working class" to "white majority" and "non-whites" with "minorities" which is responsible for alienating non-whites and perpetuating national chauvinism.

Class generally supersedes race in importance as a determining factor, but your approach emphasizes class to the detriment of addressing racial inequality. European working class values are not the working class values.

I would reply to your post, but what would be the point? You are obviously on some kind of fascist hunt, and I have no wish to say anything that might justify your illusions.

If you wish to discuss this further pm me, but is all you want is another fascist, racist scalp? Try looking elsewhere.

[dodger]

Some who venture to our shores are shell shocked. Some may cling to religion for comfort. Many away from social constraints find their bonds fraying. Long hours at work with travel a factor leads to family strains . Two wage packets dictated by the system for any sort of living standard. Brecht said grub first then ethics. Living cheek by jowl literal on top of or next door with locals being those who have lived here for generations or a previous wave gives people plenty of chance to learn what;s what. Their children play in the street or go to the same schools as 'us'. Many have the good sense to join a union others cling to clan or caste some join a party to push ahead. Cricket a religion or football another. Some academic, pal of Thatcher, a wizard on the Tudors was reduced to apoplexy, publicly on TV and Radio. The London riots were drawing to an inevitable close. Now we are told that our youth don’t know how to speak. Professor STARSKI…His gripe…they are all speaking BLACK! Maybe he needs an ear trumpet..poor old gentleman’ ‘e ain’t usin’ ‘is crust. Stick to Tudor history….vanity soundbites just show his 'h'ignorance of Etymology. Now it’s all gone PETER TONG. Caused a right bull and cow..
Oh ech! He wants to take his shnozzle elsewhere. Maybe the sceptic tanks ‘ll ‘ave ‘im.. oh vey! A klutze. Spent too long shmoozing MAGGIE, glitch maybe. Don’t you Adam and Eve it, he gets gelt every time his dial comes up on the goggle…..shmook…time for an Earthe Kit…shnell…lucky I left the Greyhound Gazette in the khazi or I would have to use that strange sink on the floor wifey just put in…………..C u s h t y !!!!!!!!

Starski might have a lot of rabbit…..but ……he don’t ‘ave a S c o o b y D ooooo!!

White kids speaking black???????….next he’ll be accusing us of speaking YIDDISH…..Italian…Hindustani…..or cockney LONDON….to name but one category.

Starski has not been on the box lately...hahaha....but you wont have seen the last of him, he wields the sword of class certainty, in HIS uncertain world. Just hope the next riots are in Glasgow or Newcastle...the natives are even more incomprehensible, even to me. The good Professor might even shed some light. they're not so polite, he might end up with a Glasgow kiss.
I am finding it a problem this business of hunting for victims. I oft find we are the authors of our own misfortune. Responsibility moi? I was lucky to be given a lift home by a work mate every night. LUXURY a newish Jag and not have to wait for the 1st train in the morning. We were stopped by the police 1,, 2 3 times every night. By Friday I had to say to him....."you brought all this problem on yourself!!,,,,why ? A blackman in a Jag...4.0am...in this posh area...why did you not get a van?" ..."I STILL GET A PULL IN A VAN BUT THIS WAY IT MAKES THEM NV ARSE !"...."NV ARSE?...NV ARSE? Oh!..Envious!...."Well it makes me SUPER NV ARSE TOO!"......"Good..dat was the 2nd reason I got it!" The only thing that could have made our nights better would have been to have you Fly Pan Dulce in the car doing a shift and maybe a chauffeur home. We could have learned a great deal from you.......I don't think we could have taught you anything! I regret to say.

http://www.google.com.ph/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=london%20riots%20whites%20talking%20black&source=web&cd=3&sqi=2&ved=0CCgQtwIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbAG TE_RGN4c&ei=6ji-TrfPHsqSiQeex7SaBQ&usg=AFQjCNHJ5jGPiRxdQRvyyDOJ1hA2nsEJvw

A more lucid take on events.............
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE5EWKkz7co&feature=related

[graymouser]

Absolutely, racism is used as an effective ‘divide and rule’ mechanism for the continuation of capitalist rule, keep the workers divided and it’s easier to control them. And defining a particular worker by his or her colour, background or sexuality is of little real consequence, other than to perpetuate the racist, xenophobic, sexist nonsense that has effectively divided the working class throughout the decades. For the capitalist (many of whom now come from the groups you see as oppressed) the colour of the worker is of little consequence to him, other than to provide a means of maintaining his control of the workforce through fear of replacement by a cheaper worker (not necessarily of a different colour)

You say, and rightly, that many within the coloured community do not trust whites, whether workers or not, but how do we address that? For at least forty years, to my memory, that has been a burning issue and we seem no closer to the answer now than we were then. Because believe me, an answer has to be found or we are destined to live in fear and oppression for ever. How do we convince them that the vast majority of 21st century white working class, rather than being the beneficiaries of a history of imperialism and colonialism, are subject to oppression as well? There are as many within the coloured community that ‘hate’ the white man as rabidly as any within the white community. Hatred knows no colour bar, and no matter how we kick and scream in denial, the fact is that racism is a knife with two edges. Also you are right, there are white supremacists within the workers movement, as there are black supremacists, its just that it is easy to point the finger at ‘white supremacists’ while making excuses for their coloured counterparts. For example white nationalism = bad, black nationalism = understandable.

I ask again, and I will keep asking, how do we go to the working class of Britain, a working class that is predominantly white, and bring them to revolutionary socialism when they see the left as being largely irrelevant to anything other than minority issues? How do we convince them that socialism is the only answer to the global situation (economic and social) when they see socialism in the most part as being only for the benefit of minority groups?
It is the combined nature of the revolution in the imperialist countries that seems to elude much of the white left, including large parts of the Trotskyist left but also many other currents. That is, the revolution will combine the socialist revolution - a generalized transition to workers' rule - with a democratic revolution giving full rights to oppressed nationalities (what you are calling minorities). Because of this, the tradition I am a part of sees a vanguard role for African Americans and other oppressed groups - that is, we will see more participation, than is predicted by demographics, from black and Latino and other oppressed peoples in any revolution here in the US.

What does that mean for the white working class? Experience has taught me that consciousness breaks unevenly. It means that the formation of white workers into any kind of revolutionary organization - the creation of a vanguard, so to speak - requires serious tasks of anti-racism. White people who break away from capitalist ideology still have all the poison in their heads of the capitalist rulers, whether it's the hatred of minorities or whether it's the slower, more subtle liberal poison of "color-blindness." And it requires a break from this, even from the naive "class not race" viewpoint which is an extension of this liberal idea. White revolutionaries, in order to make any progress, have to be the vanguard in this sense, of taking on anti-racism not simply in the naive or liberal sense but in the positive sense where white supremacy needs to be actively fought and the apple cart overturned.

There are chunks of the white working class who do have crumbs from the table of imperialism. The labor aristocracy is bought off by these crumbs, which are the ill-gotten gains of imperial conquest. The vision that socialists need to project is one of revolutionary internationalism, where white people will have the chance to be equal partners and share in the wealth of the whole world, instead of getting the table scraps from the current world order. But the ones who will become the vanguard and who are capable of making revolution, are the ones who understand the need to reject white supremacy as a whole, in a proactive way, and who understand that the revolution will have to right structural wrongs as one of its key components to getting to this vision of equality.

[Rainsborough]

Thanks for a rational answer. This is an issue that needs to be discussed and not simply pushed to one side and ignored in order not to offend sensibilities. I accept that the situation in America may not be the same as that in Britain, and that the history of our various nations may create different situations which require different responses. But racism is racism wherever you live, and should be no more acceptable in Britain than it is in America, or anywhere else in the world.

Forgive me if I fail to truly understand the gist of your argument. You seem to be saying that for whites to truly achieve revolutionary consciousness, we have to look beyond ‘whiteness’? Fair enough, but how can we look beyond ‘whiteness’, unless we truly understand what it is? Time and time again I see it referred to, but never any real attempt to define what it is, unless by ‘whiteness’ you are referring to anyone of ethnic European descent, which I trust you are not? There is a distinction, since it can be argued correctly that "whiteness" is a social construction perpetrated by the ruling class to serve its interests. Yet a continued failure by some on the left to fully emphasis this distinction must result in a belief that anyone of an ethnic European descent is guilty by genetics of an ‘original sin’ form of racism.

In order to begin the process of educating the white working class to a new world without the need to act as the capitalists performing seals for the crumbs from their table, we first must assure them that we do not see them as being born racists. Racists are not born, they are created. And the quickest way to ‘create’ a racist is to tell him he is one, over and over.

You mention the idea of the ‘aristocracy of labour’, could you expand upon this, as in an earlier post you said, “this labor aristocracy consists primarily of white workers.." Assuming that is true, how can we quantify what "primarily of white workers" really means, and of what colour does the remainder consist of? Do the minority elements of the labour aristocracy mean nothing? Let’s not be “colour blind” around this.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Forgive me if I fail to truly understand the gist of your argument. You seem to be saying that for whites to truly achieve revolutionary consciousness, we have to look beyond ‘whiteness’? Fair enough, but how can we look beyond ‘whiteness’, unless we truly understand what it is? .

move to america, study critical race theory. realize that the position you are currently advocating is a white supremacist one.

e: basically comrade you are a one-man argument against international revolution. i don't want some british comrade telling me "what are you browns so upset about we're oppressed the same i know exactly what your life is like!"

e of e: basically bro it took me all of five minutes to find this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiteness_studies

[Os Cangaceiros]

Speaking as a white man, white people need to stop being so goddamn thin skinned. If the white working class can't take some criticism over how it has been white folks doing the vast majority of the awful shit in history, committing genocide, waging war, creating massive worldwide systems of oppression, then they sure as hell aren't going to be able to make a revolution against those very systems.

I mean, I'm white, I've never been discriminated against because of that fact. As such I can never truly relate to the experiences of those who have experienced discrimination. It's kind of a no-win situation: people who shrug off race as an important topic in the radical dialogue are accused of ignoring something that was and continues to be a very real part of life for many, while those who are obsessed with the "racial question" and are white leftists are accused of thinking they know what it's like to be oppressed, and of just being identity politics-obsessed liberals in general.

And both of those descriptions are accurate on some level, right? There are definitely those who simply shrug aside race, when it IS something that's real in the lives of many people (despite not really being "real") and it's shaped the country for hundreds of years. On the other hand, there are tons of liberals, plagued with white guilt, who are all about the identity politics and have absolutely no conception of what it's like to be poor and white in some parts of America. Someone I know told me a story about some conference or event he attended somewhere, where he witnessed an argument between two white radicals that included a blonde white girl angrily accusing "what do you know about black oppression?!" (or something to that effect)

The point is, it's hard to try and identify with something that you've never experienced without sounding like your pandering to people, or to sound condescending, paternalistic, whatever. I DON'T know what it's like to not be white, therefore I primarily try to relate to experiences I share with people...in the case of politics, it usually means class and just generally hating the social order.

[Rainsborough]

move to america, study critical race theory. realize that the position you are currently advocating is a white supremacist one.

e: basically comrade you are a one-man argument against international revolution. i don't want some british comrade telling me "what are you browns so upset about we're oppressed the same i know exactly what your life is like!"

e of e: basically bro it took me all of five minutes to find this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiteness_studies

Please pack it in with the "white supremacist' crap. I have a fifteen year old mixed race grandson, of whom I am extremely proud. And having some American comrade accuse me of racism is pretty annoying as well.

I have looked at your 'whiteness study' link and found it interesting, although I have to ask why do we as revolutionary Marxists have to rely on the theories of liberal/reformist accademics as a substitute for Marxism? :confused:

[Franz Fanonipants]

Please pack it in with the "white supremacist' crap. I have a fifteen year old mixed race grandson, of whom I am extremely proud.

i have a black friend so


I have looked at your 'whiteness study' link and found it interesting, although I have to ask why do we as revolutionary Marxists have to rely on the theories of liberal/reformist accademics as a substitute for Marxism?:confused:

http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/9/10079/10321525.jpg

i don't know bro because none of it fucking countervenes marxist analysis so comrades can afford to do both.

white supremacist scum.

[syndicat]

What is the date on the material you're quoting? Lorenzo is an anarchist ex-Black Panther. But i doubt that is his view these days.

[Rainsborough]

Originally Posted by Franz Fanonipants http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2294139#post2294139)
i have a black friend so

Hooray! Only one? :laugh:


white supremacist scum.

M.T.W Twat. I was going to include the 'closed eyes' smilie, but it's your brain thats closed comrade.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'll do you one better and say fuck race pride. It's the same thing to me as nationalism. Being proud of being something that you had no control over (what you are born as, and where) is fucking stupid to me.I think in the abstract this is true, but in society where oppressed people often face social attitudes that their race or sexuality or whatever is "wicked" or "inferior" or "disgusting" or "ugly", pride is often part of how people express their opposition to oppression and confidence and determination to defeat it. So gay-pride parades, while now mostly a-political, emerged through the LGBT liberation struggles and were a reaction to having to hide your sexuality and feel shamed by it. In order to actually express your sexuality openly it took sort of a mass character like a parade or big street party so people could feel safe and confident through their collective numbers. It's the same with "black is beautiful" during the black power movement - it wasn't an attempt to express superiority and enforce it in society, it was a reaction to a society that said black is ugly, curly hair is bad, etc.

[dodger]

interesting post JIMMIE... another name for the British Working Class is ......
'THE GREAT UNWASHED', that they kept the coal in the bath, contempt born as much from fear as genuine superiority. No doubt some of the things said about Appalachia people has similar resonance. Somebody, an easy target for ridicule. Constant poverty so something to both fear and loathe. Now we are under a barrage, Chavs...you can Wiki...another attempt to sap our self belief. I pass on the link as reactionary ideas often cross the Atlantic. It's a two way traffic.

http://imarxman.wordpress.com/2011/08/16/a-podmore-review-the-war-on-the-working-class/