Skepticism versus Solidarity

[Stew312856]

MUST PREFACE AND SAY I AM SORRY I STARTED THIS WHOLE THING OFF BADLY, PLEASE JUST TRY TO EDUCATE MY IGNORANCE.


I am a former Irish Catholic, so I am not easily bullshitted by any religion, and politics is just as much a religion as going to Mass. My interest in Marx is derived not from the idea of this coming true any time soon but in reading his works for fun. I am an auto-didact, I teach myself things on my own time. I also am working towards grad school as a goal, so improving my grasp of Marx is essential in my field, Film Studies.

I would also quote Herr Dr. Marx himself in Francis Wheen's excellent biography, KARL MARX, A LIFE :


On hearing that a new French party claimed to be Marxist, he replied that in that case 'I, at least, am not a Marxist'.

Simply put, the rhapsodies for the coming revolution remind me of the Book of Revelation. Marx and Engels wrote THE MANIFESTO OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY at a certain time and place for certain people, not as an international prophecy for all time, and the choice is either to recognize and adapt to the new millennium or stay stagnant. I prefer the more unified nature of the Occupy movement than petty political divisions, at the end of the day it is the continuance of old feuds between dead people, just as the ongoing religious wars in the Middle East continue.

On that note, I also have no use for petty anti-Semitism cloaked in nuevo liberal 'Anti-Zionism', the Palestinian issue is one of religious hatred for Jews fostered by these Sharia worshipping lunatics across the region. In whatever flaws it has, Israel remains the only democracy in the region, and the Palestinians could have fixed this problem decades ago if they gave up their blood lust for eradicating all Jews from the earth. They do not want to impose a democracy, they want Sharia Law, meaning Taliban-level oppression of gays and women. Same with the ongoing Arab Spring, including Libya, all countries are now enshrining Sharia. I highly doubt Engels, were he alive today, would have ghost written 'On the Palestinian Question' while Marx finished 'Das Kapital, Volume XX-The Internet'.

I think Marx was a skeptical atheist like me, anyone else agree with these sentiments?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

the Palestinian issue is one of religious hatred for Jews fostered by these Sharia worshipping lunatics across the region. In whatever flaws it has, Israel remains the only democracy in the region, and the Palestinians could have fixed this problem decades ago if they gave up their blood lust for eradicating all Jews from the earth.
How reactionary. Your reading of the Palestinian issue is no different than that of any good bourgeois conservative. Your portrayal of Palestinians as collectively a group of religious fanatics and genocidal maniacs would seem more at home on some pro-Israel board.

Israel is a "democracy" so it can do no wrong, Palestinians are motivated primarily by religion and not by nationalism, Palestinians desire genocide of the Jews, etc.

Are you a troll or do you genuinely believe that?

[Azraella]

I think Marx was a skeptical atheist like me, anyone else agree with these sentiments?


1. I thought Marx was agnostic.

2. Your sentiments are disgusting honestly.

[Ocean Seal]

On that note, I also have no use for petty anti-Semitism cloaked in nuevo liberal 'Anti-Zionism',

Hey are you Herman Cain?



the Palestinian issue is one of religious hatred for Jews fostered by these Sharia worshipping lunatics across the region.

No wait, its Bill Maher isn't it? Clearly, its religion and not the fact that Israel has bombed, isolated, and terrorized Palestine for over 50 years.


In whatever flaws it has, Israel remains the only democracy in the region,

-George Bush



and the Palestinians could have fixed this problem decades ago if they gave up their blood lust for eradicating all Jews from the earth.

Despite the fact that you go on an on about your skepticism, I would like to ask how come you've never questioned so ludicrous a claim.



They do not want to impose a democracy, they want Sharia Law, meaning Taliban-level oppression of gays and women.

No, I think that the majority of them just want to see an end to US imperialism and live without fear of white phosphorus bombings.



Same with the ongoing Arab Spring, including Libya, all countries are now enshrining Sharia. I highly doubt Engels, were he alive today, would have ghost written 'On the Palestinian Question' while Marx finished 'Das Kapital, Volume XX-The Internet'.

WTF does this even mean.

I'm going to be honest. If you're going to come to this forum with that kind of racist shit (ie: Believing that you know every Muslim), I'm going to ask you now kindly to get the fuck out.

[ZeroNowhere]

1. I thought Marx was agnostic.
Marx was an atheist, whereas most modern atheists are agnostic. So yes, he was an atheist, but he was not like the OP, which is why we bother reading him.

[Azraella]

Marx was an atheist, whereas most modern atheists are agnostic. So yes, he was an atheist, but he was not like the OP, which is why we bother reading him.


Ah, thanks for clearing that up. Though apparently it's more complicated than that (http://home.mira.net/~andy/works/atheism.htm). (I just did some fact checking for myself)

[Stew312856]

Apologies for my own lack of tact herein.

I am new and had not read the wiki which provides sufficient RevLeft definitions of positions.

I understand now and respect these positions AS LONG AS we also are willing to recognize anti-Semitic infiltration of the Palestinian cause and efforts to combat it. The circulation of anti-Semitic texts in the Arab world is a well-known fact that needs to be as evenly acknowledged as Israeli failures in respecting human rights.

[Stew312856]

Fyi


eu threatens to cut aid over anti-semitic texts in pa

after being shown the english translation of textbooks used by the palestinian authority (pa), armin laschet, a german representative in the european union parliament threatened to halt all eu funding of pa educational institutions "until all the palestinian textbook passages antagonistic to israel are removed."

one example from the books laschet saw was a textbook on islam that calls on high school students to beware of the jews because they are "deceitful and disloyal." another blamed european anti-semitism on jewish greed and fanaticism.

Peter hansen, commissioner-general of unrwa, gave the pa response in al-hayat al-jadida, "we cannot expect a people under occupation to have textbooks which idealize, praise and express love for their occupiers."

israeli texts do not "idealize, praise and express love" for the palestinians, but they do not malign or disseminate hatred against them either.

The pa's deputy minister for education denied the books were being used, but yasser arafat confirmed that they were in the pa schools. He claimed the books were old ones from the jordanian system and that the pa lacked funds to replace them. Laschet replied that the european union was providing the pa with 300 million euros [roughly $300 million] "and they certainly can bear the cost of publishing new textbooks."

source: Arutz-7, (september 2, 2001).

[Commissar Rykov]

On hearing that a new French party claimed to be Marxist, he replied that in that case 'I, at least, am not a Marxist'
Doesn't meant what you think it means.

[Book O'Dead]

I am a former Irish Catholic, so I am not easily bullshitted by any religion, and politics is just as much a religion as going to Mass. [...]I think Marx was a skeptical atheist like me, anyone else agree with these sentiments?

Sorry, but I think you are full of shit. But, hey, that's just me!

[Book O'Dead]

1. I thought Marx was agnostic.

The term 'agnostic' would not be coined until the 1890's, I think, by Bertrand Russell.

[ZeroNowhere]

The term 'agnostic' would not be coined until the 1890's, I think, by Bertrand Russell.
Engels did refer to agnostics in his later writings, but not in an entirely favourable manner.

[La Comédie Noire]

On that note, I also have no use for petty anti-Semitism cloaked in nuevo liberal 'Anti-Zionism', the Palestinian issue is one of religious hatred for Jews fostered by these Sharia worshipping lunatics across the region. In whatever flaws it has, Israel remains the only democracy in the region, and the Palestinians could have fixed this problem decades ago if they gave up their blood lust for eradicating all Jews from the earth. They do not want to impose a democracy, they want Sharia Law, meaning Taliban-level oppression of gays and women. Same with the ongoing Arab Spring, including Libya, all countries are now enshrining Sharia. I highly doubt Engels, were he alive today, would have ghost written 'On the Palestinian Question' while Marx finished 'Das Kapital, Volume XX-The Internet'.

Are there antisemitics who protest against Israel? Of course there are, but does that make what Israel is doing any less criminal? Of course not! I'd also point out that the resistance against Israel is made up of more than just "sharia worshiping lunatics" though they certainly are the most politically organized and get the most media coverage from the west. This is all thanks to the United States who gave them money and guns in the first place.

However,this is all irrelevant in light of the Arab Spring which is a revival of mass secular movements in the Middle East. And as it turns out you don't need to be a bigoted religious fanatic to think Israel's "Democracy" is a load of shit.





Simply put, the rhapsodies for the coming revolution remind me of the Book of Revelation. Marx and Engels wrote THE MANIFESTO OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY at a certain time and place for certain people, not as an international prophecy for all time, and the choice is either to recognize and adapt to the new millennium or stay stagnant.

Of course they changed their minds, but it was on the question of the nature of revolution itself, they didn't throw out the idea of revolution all together.


I am an auto-didact

I think you need a better teacher.

[Stew312856]

Apologies for my own ballsy-ness when I started out here, have been diligent in my Learning and Research.

[Nox]

I understand now and respect these positions AS LONG AS we also are willing to recognize anti-Semitic infiltration of the Palestinian cause and efforts to combat it. The circulation of anti-Semitic texts in the Arab world is a well-known fact that needs to be as evenly acknowledged as Israeli failures in respecting human rights.

Read the sign:

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6025/user26994pic71781295735.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/15/user26994pic71781295735.jpg/)

As ironic as this may seem, this is true in every way.

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6350/2091127201bfdce62dd.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/27/2091127201bfdce62dd.jpg/)


What you have just said is exactly the same as someone in the 30's/40's saying "I understand now and respect these positions AS LONG AS we also are willing to recognize anti-Germanic infiltration of the Jewish cause"

[Belleraphone]

I understand now and respect these positions AS LONG AS we also are willing to recognize anti-Semitic infiltration of the Palestinian cause and efforts to combat it. The circulation of anti-Semitic texts in the Arab world is a well-known fact that needs to be as evenly acknowledged as Israeli failures in respecting human rights.

This is what always gets me with zionists. If you think arabs/muslims are so anti-Semitic, why the fuck would you establish your state completly surrounded by anti-Semitic muslims?

It's pretty clear to me you have a double standard, because there is just as much anti-Arab hate in Israel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BogqJAbBk8Y

If you really want to stop anti-semitism in Israel, how about you stop the state that claims to represent Jews all over the world to stop bombing and terrorizing them?

[Stew312856]

why the fuck would you establish your state completly surrounded by anti-Semitic muslims?

Because, dear comrades, the fact is that the majority population of Jerusalem was in fact Christian when Palestine became Israel. Both sides are in a sort of 'Baby Boomer War' with who can have the most kids. If this is about not wanting to accept the right of the State of Israel to exist fundamentally, ok, that is a much larger discussion. If we are talking ending the apartheid system in the West Bank while fostering democracy that is pro-woman/queer/minorities and opposed to Sharia being made law, that is my simple inquiry, and I am entitled to my own judgements on these matters without being treated like a horse's behind for asking a question in the LEARNING section. For being so open and friendly, you really know how to roll out the welcome mat and create a safe digital space for learning, IMHO.

[Marxaveli]

1. I thought Marx was agnostic.

2. Your sentiments are disgusting honestly.

Marx was indeed atheist :) But certainly not a reactionary one.

And yes, this guy has to be a troll. Almost Ayn Randish if you ask me.

[Belleraphone]

Because, dear comrades Anyone who believes in the twisted ideology of Zionism is no comrade of mine.


the fact is that the majority population of Jerusalem was in fact Christian when Palestine became Israel.What's your point? Israel was supposed to be a Jewish state, not a Christian state. Almost all of the people in Palestine were Arab Muslims/Christians prior to the state of Israel being founded, you basically just threw all the Jews in Israel and then complain that muslims attacked you for kicking you off their land. The Jewish settlements prior to the state of Israel were actually called the Kibbutz, some of the most anti-Zionist Jews would come out of there, like Noam Chomsky.


Both sides are in a sort of 'Baby Boomer War' with who can have the most kids.What?



If we are talking ending the apartheid system in the West Bank while fostering democracy that is pro-woman/queer/minorities and opposed to Sharia being made lawLet's stop using illegal weapons against the Palestinians, gay, women, or non-muslim, and then we can talk about the governments treatment of these groups.



that is my simple inquiry, and I am entitled to my own judgements on these matters without being treated like a horse's behind for asking a question in the LEARNING section. You did not ask any question about Israel, you made a baseless assertion.



For being so open and friendly, you really know how to roll out the welcome mat and create a safe digital space for learning, IMHO.
For being so left and revolutionary, you really know how to roll out the reactionary mat and create a safe digital space for racism, IMHO.

[Stew312856]

Let's stop using illegal weapons against the Palestinians, gay, women, or non-muslim, and then we can talk about the governments treatment of these groups.

No, you FIRST answer for the fact that the PLO sponsors 'Morality Squads' that stalk around enforcing Sharia vice laws that brutalize women for daring to not wear a hijab. Otherwise, you are simply excusing sexism and misogyny.

[Stew312856]

And yes, this guy has to be a troll. Almost Ayn Randish if you ask me.

Nope, anti-fascist.

[Marxaveli]

I don't know about that. You certainly are not a Communist. Not even close.

[Belleraphone]

No, you FIRST answer for the fact that the PLO sponsors 'Morality Squads' that stalk around enforcing Sharia vice laws that brutalize women for daring to not wear a hijab. Otherwise, you are simply excusing sexism and misogyny.
1. Can you cite the fact that the PLO sponsors this?

2. Hey guess what, I didn't excuse sexism or misogyny. But even if the Palestinian government treats their people like shit, that gives you no right to terrorize them. The Palestinian leadership has tried time and time again to come to terms with Israel, and at the UN the world overwhelmingly believes that Palestine should be returned to it's 1967 borders. Hamas has agreed to respect Israel's borders if they are returned to 1967. But diplomatic politics does not matter to you. Israel has NO right to terrorize Palestine and keep building more settlements. Iran has bad human rights treatment, does that give the USA the right to go in and attack them? You have such a huge double standard it is astounding.

[Marxaveli]

It's almost similar to the USA's relationship with Cuba. We dont like Castro's politics and accuse him of violating human rights, so what do we do? We hurt his people even more than he does by putting an Embargo on the country. Hypocritical as fuck. Now, I can't say im the biggest of Castro fans (afterall, I'm not a Marxist-Leninist), but I bet if we lifted the embargo the living conditions of Cuban citizens would rise substantially.

The Israel-PLO relationship is the same bullshit. The more powerful nation bullying a less powerful nation cause they are on a power trip. And it all reverts back to upholding the global capitalistic system....critical theory in International Relations this is.

[Stew312856]

I don't know about that. You certainly are not a Communist. Not even close.

Why, because I find your hypocritical refusal to engage in a serious dialogue about the PLO's Sharia tendencies dis-engenous to the women victimized by these thugs who you allegedly stand in solidarity with? Or because I challenge the ability of any religion to facilitate democracy? Marx makes clear that religion is a capitalist tool. So, while an ethnic Arab can indeed be a wonderful liberation activist, a Muslim, Jew, or Christian of any ethnicity, especially in that region, is statistically more likely to be inclined through peer pressure and economic/political disenfranchisement to be radicalized by totalitarian religious philosophies, NOT because of his 'Arab-ness' but because of one and only one thing: his religion. Your refusal to accept the historical connections, furthermore, between past anti-socialist regimes shows you own pathetic dearth in terms of revolutionary history and its counter, fascism.

We need to understand first that Italian fascism really was just right-wing Catholicism, and as such fascism spread as a Christian movement eastward. Hitler established alliances with various fascist regimes, including Italy, Spain, and also North African and Middle Eastern despots under one of many variations of the political party name 'Phalanx', one of which parties did exist in WWII Jerusalem. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem is on record in correspondence with Berlin discussing a further extension of the Final Solution into the region against the Jews. This religious-based hatred was fueled by the fact that Islam and Christianity are inherently anti-Semitic by their very natures from the outset, Christ and Muhammad are essentially one-upping the Jews and doing it better, making the Jews an 'Other'.

So quit trying to write off my own Marxist credentials, they are solid. The question is how do you prove to me you aren't in favor of oppressing women, gays, and minorities, because you don't impress me as an apologist for oppressive groups that run the PLO.

[Belleraphone]

Why, because I find your hypocritical refusal to engage in a serious dialogue about the PLO's Sharia tendencies dis-engenous to the women victimized by these thugs who you allegedly stand in solidarity with? Or because I challenge the ability of any religion to facilitate democracy? Marx makes clear that religion is a capitalist tool. So, while an ethnic Arab can indeed be a wonderful liberation activist, a Muslim, Jew, or Christian of any ethnicity, especially in that region, is statistically more likely to be inclined through peer pressure and economic/political disenfranchisement to be radicalized by totalitarian religious philosophies, NOT because of his 'Arab-ness' but because of one and only one thing: his religion. Your refusal to accept the historical connections, furthermore, between past anti-socialist regimes shows you own pathetic dearth in terms of revolutionary history and its counter, fascism.Yeah, we get it, Religion is bad. We all figured this out when we were 12. You're refusing to accept that Israel is terrorizing Palestine more than Hamas ever could. By the way, nationalist movements can be just as dangerous as religious movements, maybe even more so because anyone can be a Christian or Muslim, but not everyone can be part of the GLORIOUS ARYAN MASTER RAAAACE. Which is basically what Zionism, but for Jews.


because you don't impress me as an apologist for oppressive groups that run the PLO.
[citation needed]

[Stew312856]

Can you cite the fact that the PLO sponsors this?

Yes:

The Hamas government, trying to shore up its image as an Islamic reform movement in the face of challenges from more radical Islamist groups, is consolidating its social control by upping its efforts to "Islamize" Gaza. A notorious example is the expanded role of Gaza's "morality police." Last summer, these black-uniformed police began to patrol the beaches to ensure that men and women are dressed "appropriately" -- there is no written rule, but a woman was punished for swimming in a T-shirt and jeans -- and that unrelated men and women are not mingling. They make sure clothing stores display only modestly dressed female mannequins in their windows. They have enforced bans on women riding motorcycles and on male hairdressers working in women's hair salons. Couples walking down the street are routinely stopped, separated and questioned by plainclothes officers asking whether they're married. "You basically have to carry a copy of your marriage license on you at all times, or risk being humiliated," one young couple told us. And parents say their daughters are under pressure to dress more conservatively for school.

In Gaza, prisoners twice over
June 27, 2010|Bill Van Esveld, Human Rights Campaign- June 27, 2010, LA Times

Viva liberation, indeed...

[Marxaveli]

Why, because I find your hypocritical refusal to engage in a serious dialogue about the PLO's Sharia tendencies dis-engenous to the women victimized by these thugs who you allegedly stand in solidarity with? Or because I challenge the ability of any religion to facilitate democracy? Marx makes clear that religion is a capitalist tool. So, while an ethnic Arab can indeed be a wonderful liberation activist, a Muslim, Jew, or Christian of any ethnicity, especially in that region, is statistically more likely to be inclined through peer pressure and economic/political disenfranchisement to be radicalized by totalitarian religious philosophies, NOT because of his 'Arab-ness' but because of one and only one thing: his religion. Your refusal to accept the historical connections, furthermore, between past anti-socialist regimes shows you own pathetic dearth in terms of revolutionary history and its counter, fascism.

We need to understand first that Italian fascism really was just right-wing Catholicism, and as such fascism spread as a Christian movement eastward. Hitler established alliances with various fascist regimes, including Italy, Spain, and also North African and Middle Eastern despots under one of many variations of the political party name 'Phalanx', one of which parties did exist in WWII Jerusalem. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem is on record in correspondence with Berlin discussing a further extension of the Final Solution into the region against the Jews. This religious-based hatred was fueled by the fact that Islam and Christianity are inherently anti-Semitic by their very natures from the outset, Christ and Muhammad are essentially one-upping the Jews and doing it better, making the Jews an 'Other'.

So quit trying to write off my own Marxist credentials, they are solid. The question is how do you prove to me you aren't in favor of oppressing women, gays, and minorities, because you don't impress me as an apologist for oppressive groups that run the PLO.

I haven't made any claim as to where I stand on any issue. You questioning MY credibility and accusing me of racism, homophobic, and sexism is a complete joke. Burden of proof is on YOU, not me. I will be more than happy to engage you and disprove all your weak straw-man arguments about positions to which I have yet made any allegiance to. As far as me being a true Marxist, you need only look at my other posts in some of the other discussions to see that I am democratic and Marxist to the core.

First, I do not condone how Muslims treat their women by any means, but that is their culture, and it is NOT our business to intervene unless they ask for our help. Truth be told, we have a ton of Muslim women here in America that do not like our culture and continue to practice their culture the same way as if they were back in their own country, so your argument is weak. As an atheist, I dislike all organized religion. But the Jews are every bit as guilty here as the Muslims, and you promote Zionism for crying out loud!! How hypocritical can you be?? You claim that Christianity and Islam are both anti-Jewish, but Christians and Muslims also hate one another, so what is your fucking point? All of these religions have little tolerance of one another. Get over it. You leading the Israel cheer-leading squad doesn't make you pro-Marxist by any stretch of the imagination.

Lastly, I am a political science/international relations major. I dont need a fucking history lesson from you. You have officially been owned. Good say sir.

[Stew312856]

Yeah, we get it, Religion is bad. We all figured this out when we were 12. You're refusing to accept that Israel is terrorizing Palestine more than Hamas ever could. By the way, nationalist movements can be just as dangerous as religious movements, maybe even more so because anyone can be a Christian or Muslim, but not everyone can be part of the GLORIOUS ARYAN MASTER RAAAACE. Which is basically what Zionism, but for Jews.


Marx would say you put the cart before the horse, according to THESES ON FEURBACH the duty of philosophers is to enact and lead the revolt. As such, the role of a philosopher first is to enlighten, as the preliminary, before leading the students on the practical, political action. As such, you need atheism, mental liberation, before physical liberation can be legitimate, or else it is merely false liberation. So in this case, you can't have Judaism or Islam as valid voices in this conversation, only people.

As for your 'Master Race' bit, would that also apply to Wahhabbists and to the Sunni-Shiite-Kurd trifecta, which I see as just as ethnically-religiously supremacist as any Zionism?

[Marxaveli]

Marx would say you put the cart before the horse, according to THESES ON FEURBACH the duty of philosophers is to enact and lead the revolt. As such, the role of a philosopher first is to enlighten, as the preliminary, before leading the students on the practical, political action. As such, you need atheism, mental liberation, before physical liberation can be legitimate, or else it is merely false liberation. So in this case, you can't have Judaism or Islam as valid voices in this conversation, only people.

As for your 'Master Race' bit, would that also apply to Wahhabbists and to the Sunni-Shiite-Kurd trifecta, which I see as just as ethnically-religiously supremacist as any Zionism?

So you admit that Zionism is a supremacist ideology, just as radical Islam is. Now that you finally made a half-way logical statement, you can stop taking sides now and get off Israel's cheer-leading squad.

[Stew312856]

First, I do not condone how Muslims treat their women by any means, but that is their culture, and it is NOT our business to intervene unless they ask for our help.

Ah, yes, then THAT is the root of it then, cowardly psuedo post-modernism excusing oppression and preventing liberation, how charming.

Genital mutilation of young girls is not 'culture'. Stoning homosexuals and women is not 'culture'. Blowing up rival sect's mosques over petty religious squabbles is not 'culture'. Neither is what the US and Israel do in maintaining the apartheid state, but they do have the decency to at least execute you tied to a gurney rather than in a fetid pit.

Tell me, if you are against the death penalty, where does a nation like Saudi Arabia, who holds more PUBLIC SQUARE executions than the US, fall into your spectrum? Are you too high and mighty to impose your Imperialist ideals there, or will you stand by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

You are saying that the mainstream, patriarchal powers-that-be in the Middle East who actively suppress a serious internal Islamic reform that would include female Imams and end literalist readings of the Koran that engender abuse of human rights is the end-all be-all of Islamic culture and the viability of it? Basically, respect the hegemony of patriarchy and disregard the minority voices, such as they are, because you as some high and mighty 'revolutionary' don't feel like you are able to discern oppression from democracy?

Have no delusions, Secular Turkey of the 1900's and modern day Middle Eastern Islamic Theocracies are nowhere near the same, and you disgrace the memory of valiant Young Turks who fought for democracy. The radicalization of the Middle East only really reached a major impasse with the rise of Ayatollah Khomeni, whose theatrics (mostly done for his own political gains) attracted millions of men to his brand of insanity. The first time this happened was the Iran-Iraq War (which we funded through Donald Rumsfeld). It was a glorious cause to die for Iran. When they lost, Khomeni next took on Salman Rushdie and THE SATANIC VERSES, initiating an international religiously-based manhunt, creating underground social networks around the world subscribing to Khomeni. These radical forces exist throughout the region, including in the PLO. They are not 'cultural values' or points to respect and be sensitive. Victimizing women is victimizing women, and lack of action against it is merely carte blanche facilitation. You can live with that if you want, I refuse to, however.

[Property Is Robbery]

On that note, I also have no use for petty anti-Semitism cloaked in nuevo liberal 'Anti-Zionism', the Palestinian issue is one of religious hatred for Jews fostered by these Sharia worshipping lunatics across the region. In whatever flaws it has, Israel remains the only democracy in the region, and the Palestinians could have fixed this problem decades ago if they gave up their blood lust for eradicating all Jews from the earth. They do not want to impose a democracy, they want Sharia Law, meaning Taliban-level oppression of gays and women.
I hope you're a troll

[Stew312856]

I hope you're a troll

Not so lucky, a skeptic but a Marxist none the less.

[Marxaveli]

Ah, yes, then THAT is the root of it then, cowardly psuedo post-modernism excusing oppression and preventing liberation, how charming.

Genital mutilation of young girls is not 'culture'. Stoning homosexuals and women is not 'culture'. Blowing up rival sect's mosques over petty religious squabbles is not 'culture'. Neither is what the US and Israel do in maintaining the apartheid state, but they do have the decency to at least execute you tied to a gurney rather than in a fetid pit.

Tell me, if you are against the death penalty, where does a nation like Saudi Arabia, who holds more PUBLIC SQUARE executions than the US, fall into your spectrum? Are you too high and mighty to impose your Imperialist ideals there, or will you stand by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

You are saying that the mainstream, patriarchal powers-that-be in the Middle East who actively suppress a serious internal Islamic reform that would include female Imams and end literalist readings of the Koran that engender abuse of human rights is the end-all be-all of Islamic culture and the viability of it? Basically, respect the hegemony of patriarchy and disregard the minority voices, such as they are, because you as some high and mighty 'revolutionary' don't feel like you are able to discern oppression from democracy?

Have no delusions, Secular Turkey of the 1900's and modern day Middle Eastern Islamic Theocracies are nowhere near the same, and you disgrace the memory of valiant Young Turks who fought for democracy. The radicalization of the Middle East only really reached a major impasse with the rise of Ayatollah Khomeni, whose theatrics (mostly done for his own political gains) attracted millions of men to his brand of insanity. The first time this happened was the Iran-Iraq War (which we funded through Donald Rumsfeld). It was a glorious cause to die for Iran. When they lost, Khomeni next took on Salman Rushdie and THE SATANIC VERSES, initiating an international religiously-based manhunt, creating underground social networks around the world subscribing to Khomeni. These radical forces exist throughout the region, including in the PLO. They are not 'cultural values' or points to respect and be sensitive. Victimizing women is victimizing women, and lack of action against it is merely carte blanche facilitation. You can live with that if you want, I refuse to, however.

LMAO at me being imperialist!!!! :laugh: Ive truly heard it all now. You are a fucking troll, and an irrational one at that. I will waste no more time with you because I can already see you cannot be reasoned with.

[Stew312856]

So you admit that Zionism is a supremacist ideology, just as radical Islam is. Now that you finally made a half-way logical statement, you can stop taking sides now and get off Israel's cheer-leading squad.

Islam in any form is inherently supremacist towards Judaism, it believes that it improves on the Torah and the Jews fell away and failed God, ceasing to be the 'Chosen People' who Muslims now replace. However, that religiously based anti-Semitism is different than apartheid policy in Israel. Israel's is created by subscription to a capitalist hegemonic theory based around modern property rights and deeds. That capitalism is violently oppressive, but not purely the expression of religion, secularists can express that violence while only a religious Muslim can be express that first brand of religious anti-Semitism.

[Stew312856]

LMAO at me being imperialist!!!! :laugh: Ive truly heard it all now. You are a fucking troll, and an irrational one at that. I will waste no more time with you because I can already see you cannot be reasoned with.

No, I mis-typed that, I meant your ideas about Imperialism, my mistake.

Also, what about back when the CPUSA and International Brigades actively went to another country to stop an ethnic religious population with groundswell religious support on international fronts from undermining democracy? No one calls the Spanish Civil War imperialist or interventionist.

[Marxaveli]

Look, we can sit here all day and say this or that is more evil. At the end of the day, both Israel's capitalistic racism and radical Islam's treatment of its women (and men too for that matter) suck. But going in there and trying to liberate them will only provoke further resistance. This culture, whether you like it or not, is thousands of years of tradition, and you are NOT going to just go in there and reverse it over night. It is not gonna happen, get over it. I hate it and think it is evil as much as you do, but neither you nor I can change thousands of years of culture in a day. It simply doesn't work that way. Either such states will have to have their own revolution as Egypt, Syria, Libya etc have, or better yet, the world Communist revolution would almost certainly end it. But until either of these things happen, you have to live with it, just like I have to live as being a Marxist in a fucking ugly and barbaric capitalistic world every single day of my life. It is pretty miserable let me tell you, but regardless, I have to make the best of each day that I can.

[Seth]

What do we think of supporting ethnic cleansing and perpetuating common imperialist tropes?

Why are you even on this forum? Were it up to me you and your comrade ComradeMan would be banned but apparently zionism isn't seen as the nationalist plague it is on this forum.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

So quit trying to write off my own Marxist credentials, they are solid.
Well, if you say so. I say you're a Zionist and an Islamophobe. :thumbdown:

[Manic Impressive]

First people need to calm the fuck down in this thread and stop calling troll with no proof.


On that note, I also have no use for petty anti-Semitism cloaked in nuevo liberal 'Anti-Zionism', the Palestinian issue is one of religious hatred for Jews fostered by these Sharia worshipping lunatics across the region. In whatever flaws it has, Israel remains the only democracy in the region, and the Palestinians could have fixed this problem decades ago if they gave up their blood lust for eradicating all Jews from the earth. They do not want to impose a democracy, they want Sharia Law, meaning Taliban-level oppression of gays and women.
I hope you're a troll
I can think of a few people on here who were banned or restricted for anti semitism while claiming anti-zionism. Are you people claiming that there's no anti-semitism on the left? Are you claiming no anti-semitism amongst Palastinians? The op in my opinion was poorly worded and provocative where it didn't need to be but it didn't deserve the overreaction it has gotten. He's here to learn so if you know better then teach him.

[Thirsty Crow]

First of all, I don't think that the idea that opposition towards Israel comes from religious fanaticism can withstand even meager scrutiny. In other words, this view represents an ideological mystifications of real underlying antagonisms at work in this case.

And the motor force of these antagonisms is the expansionist, militarist and racists polciies of the Israeli state, primarily aimed at Palestinians. I think it is clear that no one can claim Marxist "credentials" and fail to acknowledge this reality, and instead adopt a seriously deluded position that there is one homogenous group (with religion as the factor of homogenisation) who are bloodthirsty lunatics. Marxists cannot substitute ideological expressions for real, material antagonisms as the cause of a series of events.
Also, I don't think that communists should condonce such actions.

Now, it seems that Stew is arguing in favour of a direct military intervention for humanitarian reasons. If that's the case, I would like to see an elaboration of just why does this user think social relations can be fundamentally changed in such a way. If that's not what is being argued, then a clarification would be in order, since all I can perceive here are calls for civilization being brought by bombings.

[Nox]

Nope, anti-fascist.

Are you fucking kidding, how the fuck can you be anti-fascist and zionist?

"Zionism is ok because the Palestinians are anti-semitic"

"Nazism is ok because the Jews are anti-Germanic"

IT'S THE EXACT SAME FUCKING THING YOU HYPOCRITE

[Stew312856]

First of all, I don't think that the idea that opposition towards Israel comes from religious fanaticism can withstand even meager scrutiny. In other words, this view represents an ideological mystifications of real underlying antagonisms at work in this case.

And the motor force of these antagonisms is the expansionist, militarist and racists polciies of the Israeli state, primarily aimed at Palestinians. I think it is clear that no one can claim Marxist "credentials" and fail to acknowledge this reality, and instead adopt a seriously deluded position that there is one homogenous group (with religion as the factor of homogenisation) who are bloodthirsty lunatics. Marxists cannot substitute ideological expressions for real, material antagonisms as the cause of a series of events.
Also, I don't think that communists should condonce such actions.

Now, it seems that Stew is arguing in favour of a direct military intervention for humanitarian reasons. If that's the case, I would like to see an elaboration of just why does this user think social relations can be fundamentally changed in such a way. If that's not what is being argued, then a clarification would be in order, since all I can perceive here are calls for civilization being brought by bombings.

I am not offering military solutions, I say the misogynist, homophobic, sexist Hamas government, which enforces Islamic-rooted patriarchal structures and receives moral and financial aid from other regimes with similar repressive policies towards non-men should not be considered a legitimate political force, they are fueled by jihadist radicalism rather than secular Young Turks principles. It is well-known that Arafat, in 2000, walked away from peace accords hosted by Bill Clinton. Why? Purely due to religious reasons and the dispute over the holy sites. If both sides were atheist and sensible, they'd get over what is really an ugly pit in the middle of Jerusalem and move on. But no, religion poisons everything.

[Desperado]

Flip guys, this is learning. Calm the hell down and educate, not accuse of "troll", "reactionary", "Ayn Randish" and swear in caps pretty much immediately, particularly after the user partly apologised pretty quickly.

Nice way of encouraging those interested in Marx, who might also have some more misguided views. Hell, ones that are mainstream and fed in propaganda enough for us to expect, and so be patient with and prepared for. With this attitude, how on earth do you expect us to win over the large sections of the working class - who hold plenty of sexist, homophobic and xenophobic opinions?

[Stew312856]

When I first visited this pitiful town, it was under the nominal control of a largely Christian Palestinian municipality, linked to one particular political dynasty identified with the Freij family. When I have seen it since, it has generally been under a brutal curfew imposed by the Israeli military authorities—whose presence on the West Bank is itself not unconnected with belief in certain ancient scriptural prophecies, though this time with a different promise made by a different god to a different people. Now comes the turn of still another religion. The forces of Hamas, who claim the whole of Palestine as an Islamic wacjfor holy dispensation sacred to Islam, have begun to elbow aside the Christians of
Bethlehem. Their leader, Mahmoud al-Zahar, has announced that all inhabitants of the Islamic state of Palestine will be expected to conform to Muslim law. In Bethlehem, it is now proposed that non-Muslims be subjected to the al-Jeziya tax, the historic levy imposed on dhimmis or unbelievers under the old Ottoman Empire. Female employees of the municipality are forbidden to greet male visitors with a handshake. In Gaza, a young woman named Yusra al- Azami was shot dead in April 2005, for the crime of sitting un-chaperoned in a car with her fiancé. The young man escaped with only a vicious beating. The leaders of the Hamas "vice and virtue" squad justified this casual murder and torture by saying that there had been "suspicion of immoral behavior." In once secular Palestine, mobs of sexually repressed young men are conscripted to snoop around parked cars, and given permission to do what they like.
I once heard the late Abba Eban, one of Israel's more polished and thoughtful diplomats and statesmen, give a talk in New York. The first thing to strike the eye about the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, he said, was the ease of its solubility. From this arresting start he went on to say, with the authority of a former foreign minister and UN representative, that the essential point was a simple one. Two peoples of roughly equivalent size had a claim to the same land. The solution was, obviously, to create two states side by side. Surely something so self-evident was within the wit of man to encompass? And so it would have been, decades ago, if the messianic rabbis and mullahs and priests could have been kept out of it. But the exclusive claims to god-given authority, made by hysterical clerics on both sides and further stoked by Armageddon-minded Christians who hope to bring on the Apocalypse (preceded by the death or conversion of all Jews), have made the situation insufferable, and put the whole of humanity in the position of hostage to a quarrel that now features the threat of nuclear war. Religion poisons everything. As well as a menace to civilization, it has become a threat to human survival. -Christopher Hitchens, god Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything


Thoughts?

[Marxaveli]

I am not offering military solutions, I say the misogynist, homophobic, sexist Hamas government, which enforces Islamic-rooted patriarchal structures and receives moral and financial aid from other regimes with similar repressive policies towards non-men should not be considered a legitimate political force, they are fueled by jihadist radicalism rather than secular Young Turks principles. It is well-known that Arafat, in 2000, walked away from peace accords hosted by Bill Clinton. Why? Purely due to religious reasons and the dispute over the holy sites. If both sides were atheist and sensible, they'd get over what is really an ugly pit in the middle of Jerusalem and move on. But no, religion poisons everything.

The Fascist ways of radical Islam, however, are not to be countered with more Fascist ideas (Zionism). As a Marxist, you should know that all religion, especially radical Islam or Zionism, are forms of Idealism. It does not matter if one is worse than the other. You are only perpetuating the very problem you seek to solve. Communists do not measure Idealism by the degree of how bad it is, for all of Idealism in flies in the face of Materialism. It doesn't matter if it is religion, nationalism, or human nature. You seem to think that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", which is an absurd notion for any Communist. Yes, religion poisons everything. So why are you promoting Zionism, when it is just using idealism to fight more idealism? Don't you see the flaw in this?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Thoughts?


-Christopher Hitchens, god Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything

Don't bring that drunk old neo-conservative douchebag here, please. He poisons everything with his filthy nonsense.

[Belleraphone]

Yes:

The Hamas government, trying to shore up its image as an Islamic reform movement in the face of challenges from more radical Islamist groups, is consolidating its social control by upping its efforts to "Islamize" Gaza. A notorious example is the expanded role of Gaza's "morality police." Last summer, these black-uniformed police began to patrol the beaches to ensure that men and women are dressed "appropriately" -- there is no written rule, but a woman was punished for swimming in a T-shirt and jeans -- and that unrelated men and women are not mingling. They make sure clothing stores display only modestly dressed female mannequins in their windows. They have enforced bans on women riding motorcycles and on male hairdressers working in women's hair salons. Couples walking down the street are routinely stopped, separated and questioned by plainclothes officers asking whether they're married. "You basically have to carry a copy of your marriage license on you at all times, or risk being humiliated," one young couple told us. And parents say their daughters are under pressure to dress more conservatively for school.

In Gaza, prisoners twice over
June 27, 2010|Bill Van Esveld, Human Rights Campaign- June 27, 2010, LA Times

Viva liberation, indeed...

You saidthe PLO was doing this. Hamas is NOT part of the PLO. If you cannot make that distinction, then just stop talking about Israeli politics.


Marx would say you put the cart before the horse, according to THESES ON FEURBACH the duty of philosophers is to enact and lead the revolt. As such, the role of a philosopher first is to enlighten, as the preliminary, before leading the students on the practical, political action. As such, you need atheism, mental liberation, before physical liberation can be legitimate, or else it is merely false liberation. So in this case, you can't have Judaism or Islam as valid voices in this conversation, only people.

As for your 'Master Race' bit, would that also apply to Wahhabbists and to the Sunni-Shiite-Kurd trifecta, which I see as just as ethnically-religiously supremacist as any Zionism? Marx is not infallible. Remember that since the state of Israel was founded, the Palestinian leadership has grown more and more conservative as Israel continues to brutalize the people. Zionism is just as disgusting as any religious fanaticism. Wahhabism is not really prevalent in Palestine bro. The Sunni-Shia-Kurd conflict isn't that prevalent in Palestine either (Hezbollah), that's in the greater Middle Eastern region.



Genital mutilation of young girls is not 'culture'. Stoning homosexuals and women is not 'culture'. Blowing up rival sect's mosques over petty religious squabbles is not 'culture'. Neither is what the US and Israel do in maintaining the apartheid state, but they do have the decency to at least execute you tied to a gurney rather than in a fetid pit.
YEAH, THEIR CULTURE IS SO SHITTY SO THAT GIVES US THE RIGHT TO OPPRESS AND BRUTALIZE THEM!
Don't you realize that internal freedoms have no correlation to how the foriegn policy of a state/organization? 19th century England was one of the most freest societies in the world, and they engaged in unprecedented imperialism. Iran is a very suppressed society, but their foriegn policy record is impressive.



Tell me, if you are against the death penalty, where does a nation like Saudi Arabia, who holds more PUBLIC SQUARE executions than the US, fall into your spectrum? Are you too high and mighty to impose your Imperialist ideals there, or will you stand by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?
The Saudi government would've been overthrown long ago if the USA would not have (and still give them) massive amounts of money. I see you, Christopher Hitchens.



You are saying that the mainstream, patriarchal powers-that-be in the Middle East who actively suppress a serious internal Islamic reform that would include female Imams and end literalist readings of the Koran that engender abuse of human rights is the end-all be-all of Islamic culture and the viability of it? Basically, respect the hegemony of patriarchy and disregard the minority voices, such as they are, because you as some high and mighty 'revolutionary' don't feel like you are able to discern oppression from democracy? The majority of the Islamic theocracies are supported by the USA or other western powers. You think most people like living under awful rule? Do you really think that arabs like hardcore Islam? The USA gives tons of money to Saudi Arabia, the Taliban, Bahrain, Morocco, the list goes on. You don't understand Middle Eastern politics, there's more to it then just "HURR WELL THEY'RE MUSLIMS AND THEY'RE RELIGIOUS SO THEY'RE DUMB AND EVIL!"


The first time this happened was the Iran-Iraq War (which we funded through Donald Rumsfeld).What? We supported Iraq in the Iran-Iraq war.


When they lost, Khomeni next took on Salman Rushdie and THE SATANIC VERSES, iIran did not lose the Iran-Iraq war.


These radical forces exist throughout the region, including in the PLO.The PLO is not radical.


Islam in any form is inherently supremacist towards JudaismJudaism is a disgusting and reprehensible religion, don't defend it.


It is well-known that Arafat, in 2000, walked away from peace accords hosted by Bill Clinton. Why? Purely due to religious reasons and the dispute over the holy sites.WRONG.

After seven years of on-again, off-again negotiations and a succession of new interim agreements that managed to rob the Palestinians of the few crumbs thrown from the master's table at Oslo, (43) the moment of truth arrived at Camp David in July 2000. President Clinton and Prime Minister Barak delivered Arafat the ultimatum of formally acquiescing in a Bantustan or bearing full responsibility for the collapse of the "peace process." Arafat refused, however, to budge from the international consensus for resolving the conflict. According to Robert Malley, a key American negotiator at Camp David, Arafat continued to hold out for a "Palestinian state based on the June 4, 1967 borders, living alongside Israel," yet also "accepted the notion of Israeli annexation of West Bank territory to accommodate settlements, though [he] insisted on a one for one swap of land of 'equal size and value'" - that is, the "minor" and "mutual" border adjustments of the original US position on Resolution 242. Malley's rendering of the Palestinian proposal at Camp David - an offer that was widely dismissed but rarely reported - deserves full quotation: "a state of Israel incorporating some land captured in 1967 and including a very large majority of its settlers, the largest Jewish Jerusalem in the city's history, preservation of Israel's demographic balance between Jews and Arabs; security guaranteed by a US-led international presence." On the other hand, contrary to the myth spun by Barak-Clinton as well as a compliant media, "Barak offered the trappings of Palestinian sovereignty," a special adviser at the British Foreign Office observed, "while perpetuating the subjugation of the Palestinians." Although accounts of the Barak proposal significantly differ, all knowledgeable observers concur that it "would have meant that territory annexed by Israel would encroach deep inside the Palestinian state" (Malley), dividing the West Bank into multiple, disconnected enclaves, and offering land swaps that were of neither equal size nor equal value. (44) Norman Finkelstein, Image and Reality.
Why don't you actually learn about what happened at 2000 and that Palestine would've been fucked if Arafat had agreed to that?


Thoughts?They were not of roughly equal size prior to the state of Israel. Hitchens is a well known apologist for American imperialism. Israel caused the infitada, Israel started the 1967 war, Israel started the Lebanese war in the 80's and in 2006, and Israel started the Gaza war.

[Stew312856]

Judaism is a disgusting and reprehensible religion, don't defend it.

Oh that's so sexy

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

The op in my opinion was poorly worded and provocative where it didn't need to be but it didn't deserve the overreaction it has gotten.
He said the Palestinians are collectively a bunch of fanatics bent on genocide. I'd say it absolutely deserved the reaction it got, and then some.


He's here to learn so if you know better then teach him.
Did you miss where he said his "Marxist credentials...are solid"?

[Yuppie Grinder]

The occupy wall street movement is cool as is all direct political action, but there are way to many fancy-pants college kid liberals there for it to have real revolutionary potential.

[Marxaveli]

Most of them are Social Democrats and/or reformists :(

I guess it's a start, but they must become made aware of the material conditions around them and realize reform isn't an option.

[Belleraphone]

We need to stop complaining so much about OWS. It's the closest thing we have to a persistent left-wing movement in 40 years.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

19th century England was one of the most freest societies in the world
I'm not sure my ancestors who lived in Britain at the time and worked as domestic servants would agree.


Judaism is a disgusting and reprehensible religion, don't defend it.
First, Islamophobia in this thread, and now Judeophobia? These types of comments are pure prejudice and have nothing to do with a critique of religion in general from a materialist perspective.

[Belleraphone]

I'm not sure my ancestors who lived in Britain at the time and worked as domestic servants would agree.

Talking about political freedoms. It had some of the freest speech in the world but was very agressive.


First, Islamophobia in this thread, and now Judeophobia? These types of comments are pure prejudice and have nothing to do with a critique of religion in general from a materialist perspective.
They're both religions, I don't hate muslims or Jews and I'm very pro-Palestine, but this guy was ranting on and on about Islam so I just showed him how stupid that was.

[Obs]

Christ, people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

Edit: Dude, look, Stew, you gotta get out of this idealist, zealous anti-religion you've got going (especially the insane islamophobia). It plays perfectly into the hands of imperialism. It might also help you to actually get to know and talk to some muslims instead of trying to read books about what certain groups of people are like (the books are always wrong).

[Stew312856]

Christ, people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

Edit: Dude, look, Stew, you gotta get out of this idealist, zealous anti-religion you've got going (especially the insane islamophobia). It plays perfectly into the hands of imperialism. It might also help you to actually get to know and talk to some muslims instead of trying to read books about what certain groups of people are like (the books are always wrong).

I know several Muslims, and I respectfully would submit that any person, labeling themselves with their creed exclusively, whether Jew, Christian, or Muslim, is inherently a crazy person who talks to a make-believe man in the sky they think is on 'their' side.


A place for beginners and learners to ask their political questions about theory or specific issues. Don't worry if you think your questions are stupid or pointless, ask away. Learning is not stupid and is never pointless.

That is what the heading of this section is, I've made it known I am a noob here, and I really am getting sick of the resentful backlash. You snobby users can fuck off, seriously, I would put a fiver on the fact many of you may have been as ignorant as I am now when you first started out, and you are too high and mighty to recognize everyone needs to start somewhere.

I have done my research and recognize my ignorance in labeling the entire PLO as hateful, Fatah, I now realize, is a member of the Socialist International. THAT party is ok, fine by me, but Hamas, which is a member of the PLO, is nothing but a bunch of theocratic patriarchal misogynists. Don't try to pretend they aren't part of the PLO, they are the major faction opposed to Fatah, and they have majority in the PLC, these are the seat lay outs:


Hamas (74)
Fatah (45)
PFLP (3)
Palestinian People's Party (1)
Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (1)
Independent Palestine (2)
Third Way (2)
Independents (4)

Hamas is internationally affiliated with Muslim Brotherhood, a theocratic minded group intent on instituting laws based on Quranic and Sunnah. Hamas is Sunni Muslim officially, and has indeed violated women's rights in attempts to institute these so-called 'reforms' to pull Palestinians out of modernity and back into a quasi-medieval existence.

[Belleraphone]

That is what the heading of this section is, I've made it known I am a noob here, and I really am getting sick of the resentful backlash. You snobby users can fuck off, seriously, I would put a fiver on the fact many of you may have been as ignorant as I am now when you first started out, and you are too high and mighty to recognize everyone needs to start somewhere.I'm not getting pissed off at you for asking about materialism or atheism, but in your original post you made a hateful comment towards Arabs, so you're going to get challenged.


Don't try to pretend they aren't part of the PLO, they are the major faction opposed to FatahThey aren't. Fatah is in the PLO, Hamas is not. http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS21235.pdf


, and they have majority in the PLCI know they have the majority in the PLC. They are the only party with significant military force to fight back against Israeli imperialism and occupation. We've went over this before.


Hamas is internationally affiliated with Muslim Brotherhood, a theocratic minded group intent on instituting laws based on Quranic and Sunnah.The Muslim brotherhood helped overthrow Mubarak and the majority. Here's an interview with their leader. http://www.ikhwanweb.com/faq.php

[Stew312856]

They aren't. Fatah is in the PLO, Hamas is not.



Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas). Hamas is a Palestinian offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood Society in Palestine, itself a part of the Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamist group founded Egypt in 1928, by Hassan al-Banna. Established by the late Sheik Ahmad Yasin in 1988, Hamas belongs to a constellation of Palestinian groups who, after the Arab-Israeli war of 1967, believed that Arab secular socialism (personified by the late Gamal Abd al-Nasser, the former President of Egypt) had failed to secure a Palestinian state. During the 1980’s, Israel lent tacit support to Hamas in an effort to check the growing authority of a secular PLO. Over the past three decades, Hamas has risen to prominence, in part, due to a well-organized social service network that provides services and charitable programs (daycare, foodstuffs, education, and health services) to Palestinians. Through its military wing, the Izz Eddine al-Qassam Units, Hamas has frequently claimed responsibility for attacking and killing scores of Israeli civilians and soldiers. Over the past four years, Hamas and its military wing al-Qassam have employed suicide bombers as a key tactic in targeting Israelis. Hamas is designated an FTO.

Ok, my bad there, I accede that point. Wikipedia made me think they were warring factions in the PLO and that Hamas won out after the in-fighting following Arafat's death.


The Muslim brotherhood helped overthrow Mubarak and the majority.

Doesn't mean the above quoted text from your FAS.ORG report DOESN'T make clear the inter-relationship of Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas, and the above quote also says that Muslim Brotherhood opposes secularism in the name of theocracy.

[Belleraphone]

You aren't going to find any significant secular political forces in the Middle East (maybe in Turkey) because the majority of muslims are okay with religion in Government. It's true that they favor Shariah, but muslim law can be interpreted very differently depending on who sets forth the policy. What's important is that the Muslim Brotherhood favors democracy. If it's a real democracy, then with enough public pressure, it would theoretically phase out the religion in government as the Arab people become more enlightened.

[Jose Gracchus]

Are we allowed to consider the PLO to be vulgar bourgeois gangsters but hold the Bill Maher politics?

[Belleraphone]

There's a marxist organization within the PLO.

[Jose Gracchus]

There was in every Popular Front government ever, as well. Which similarly had no real commitments to overturning the nexus of social relations based on alienated labor, with the state and value-production at its head. Plenty of organizations color themselves 'Marxist' or 'communist' or 'socialist', but at the end of the day they are only pushing for the completion of liberal national development programs that would make the 19th c. bourgeoisie proud.

What common cause do we have with 'communists' who openly advocate, campaign, and agitate for new bourgeois government, which they plan on 'leading' the workers and poor to support? National liberation is not progressive in 2011. Any consolidation of a new bourgeois government in this epoch is premised first on the submission of the working-class, such that your new 'progressive' government might make good on its drive to restore 'national' accumulation. That might be a fine program for a social democrat or some other left capitalist, but I do not see it as a communist goal.

[st_remy]

bjb fslnvoqeifnmokdlm

[Belleraphone]

Look, you need to liberate yourself from the Israeli invaders before you can ever hope to establish a classless society. If Palestine had a revolution now, Israel would crush it.

[Jose Gracchus]

Except outside the minds of totally self-deluded Trots and MLs, there is not going to be a peculiarly Palestinian, national, socialist state that emerges from any plausible revolutionary upheaval. Revolution in the Middle East presupposes a massive mobilization of the working-class in the region across national, regional, ethnic, religious, and sectoral lines. Practically speaking, I suspect the average Palestinian in the abstract would be better off with a Palestinian national state. But any realistic Palestinian national state will just be a slightly differently situated pawn, without economic or political autonomy or credibility, between bourgeois imperial factions. To the extent that U.S. imperialism recedes, people will only see the development of old-fashioned inter-regional bourgeois feuds to replace it.

History to me suggests that the conflict will be resolved in the revolution. Not resolved in order to make the revolution.

[Belleraphone]

I agree completely. The overthrow of the Israeli occupation will not necessarily mean socialism/communism in Palestine just because the PLO has a few leftist organizations. But it does mean

1. An increased standard of living since the Blockade is broken and they actually have enough land to live on.
2. An end to Zionist terrorism and not having to worry about your children getting incinerated by white phosphorus.
3. The slow eradication of Shariah law and other Islamic practices as the more radical (in a bad way) parties become less necessary as Israeli aggression no longer serves a threat.

The average Palestinian cannot possibly see the oppression inherent in the capitalist system until they end Israeli aggression. From their perspective, who do you think is a bigger threat? The guy with the nice house down the street or the tanks shooting their places of worship? We need to solve this war before we start a revolution.

[Jose Gracchus]

I think it is fantastic to claim the Palestinians represent some great depth from which the wage-laborer cannot come to grips and confront the conditions of his labor, which oppose him as a hostile power. Workers built resistance in conditions even more horrific than the Gaza Strip and West Bank. I must disagree. Your rhetoric is pragmatic, but similar reasoning could be offered for every instance of lesser-evilism, tailing the "progressive bourgeoisie," the Popular Front, and every other pretext for surrendering the independence of the working-class.

Furthermore, we can actually observe Iran, a state which previously profited handsomely as a close ally and client of the U.S. It overthrew that yoke, but not in a way which yielded any benefits for workers. I have yet to see where any instance of national liberation subjectively or objectively produces a working-class closer to its self-abolition.

I also disagree with the idea that communism is a marketing exercise, so we should tell Palestinian workers to line up with 'their' shopkeepers and politicos in order to fight the Jew enemy, because they just will not be able to get it until that is over with. I mean could you not use the same reasoning for any immediate concern which has confronted workers over all of history?

[Belleraphone]

Workers built resistance in conditions even more horrific than the Gaza Strip and West Bank. I must disagree. Your rhetoric is pragmatic, but similar reasoning could be offered for every instance of lesser-evilism, tailing the "progressive bourgeoisie," the Popular Front, and every other pretext for surrendering the independence of the working-class.The point is not the quality of conditions, it's who Palestinians will perceive to be as the enemy. They cannot possibly see the bourgeois as the enemy until the Israeli stops peppering them with bombs. Even if they were able to obtain class consciousness, Israel would destroy Palestine in the ensuing chaos.



Furthermore, we can actually observe Iran, a state which previously profited handsomely as a close ally and client of the U.S. It overthrew that yoke, but not in a way which yielded any benefits for workers. I have yet to see where any instance of national liberation subjectively or objectively produces a working-class closer to its self-abolition. The Iranian government has implemented social programs for the poor since the Islamic Revolution. Not nearly enough obviously, but conditions have certainly improved since they got rid of an Imperialist leading their government in exchange for a semi-theocratic government which now has an internal struggle between the secularists and the religious conservatives.

We've also seen the conditions improve for working people in places like Latin America when they kicked out US puppets. These leaders would later lead to a growing leftist movement in Latin America.


I mean could you not use the same reasoning for any immediate concern which has confronted workers over all of history?
Let's look at the situation in Mexico. Aside from the bourgeois, another thing that is hurting the Mexican population is the drug cartels. Suppose you overthrew the Mexican government and established a communist/anarchist society and legalized drug production, this would solve both the cartel problem and the bourgeois problem. Now suppose Palestine overthrows their ruling class. This does not solve the Israeli problem, and the Palestinians would never get there because Israel would absorb the rest of Palestine before they were able to.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I've made it known I am a noob here, and I really am getting sick of the resentful backlash. You snobby users can fuck off, seriously, I would put a fiver on the fact many of you may have been as ignorant as I am now when you first started out, and you are too high and mighty to recognize everyone needs to start somewhere.
Didn't you state earlier in this thread that your "Marxist credentials...are solid"? You're new to this board, but someone with solid Marxist credentials shouldn't be spouting some of the nonsense you've been spouting. So which is it?

[Stew312856]

Didn't you state earlier in this thread that your "Marxist credentials...are solid"? You're new to this board, but someone with solid Marxist credentials shouldn't be spouting some of the nonsense you've been spouting. So which is it?

You misunderstand, being a Marxist to me means being versed academically in Marx and studying dialectics, not keeping up on current affairs. I am still on the 18th BRUMAIRE, not too savvy on anything after the Paris Commune formally enough.

[Manic Impressive]

He said the Palestinians are collectively a bunch of fanatics bent on genocide. I'd say it absolutely deserved the reaction it got, and then some.
As I said poorly worded. I do not believe for one second that the op believes that all Palestinians are anti-semetic.



Did you miss where he said his "Marxist credentials...are solid"?
Did you miss the two or three times previously where he says he's new? What was he meant to say when responding to
"I don't know about that. You certainly are not a Communist. Not even close."

As you may not be aware there is meant to be much harsher modding in the learning forum to prevent personal attacks on new users. If people go around calling everyone trying to learn a troll, a fascist and zionist at every opportunity without even engaging the points they are making then it hardly creates a conducive learning space does it?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

You misunderstand, being a Marxist to me means being versed academically in Marx and studying dialectics, not keeping up on current affairs.
Fair enough. My suggestion would be to keep up on current affairs and apply dialectical analysis to them.

[Thirsty Crow]

Stew, I apologize for misrepresenting your views, I was wrong to extrapolate from your positions the way I did.
So, to get this straight, you are in fact arguing against revolutionaries providing support for what you perceive as religious fundamentalist politics of opposition to Israeli aggression. Is that correct?

But another thing. You didn't respond to a user proving you wrong on Camp David. This ties in with the fact that you didn't bother to respond to other of my points, especially with regard to the relationship between religion as an expression of real antagonisms, and these antagonisms. I still claim that one can hardly claim Marxist credentials and yet continue to view this particular conflict predominantly in terms of religious differences and supposed "supremacism" emanating from religious beliefs.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

If people go around calling everyone trying to learn a troll, a fascist and zionist at every opportunity without even engaging the points they are making then it hardly creates a conducive learning space does it?
No, it doesn't, but would you agree that some types of statements will set off warnings for some of us?

[Stew312856]

Stew, I apologize for misrepresenting your views, I was wrong to extrapolate from your positions the way I did.
So, to get this straight, you are in fact arguing against revolutionaries providing support for what you perceive as religious fundamentalist politics of opposition to Israeli aggression. Is that correct?

Yes, not opposed to legitimate anti-oppressive groups but not in favor of the Hamas-type Pan-Islamicism that celebrates theocracy and institutes Sharia, as is now the case in the new Libyan constitution.

[Obs]

I know several Muslims, and I respectfully would submit that any person, labeling themselves with their creed exclusively, whether Jew, Christian, or Muslim, is inherently a crazy person who talks to a make-believe man in the sky they think is on 'their' side.
Nice - in addition to being a condescending prick, you deliberately misunderstood my post so as to get an excuse to act like a condescending prick. You're fully aware that I was not referring to anyone who identified purely by their religion (no one does that except the brown-skinned ghouls in a New Atheist's night terrors, btw), and I'd like it if you responded to my point now.

[Manic Impressive]

No, it doesn't, but would you agree that some types of statements will set off warnings for some of us?
I can't disagree with that seeing as that's what has happened. Although this thread is very different to say this thread. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/good-men-leipzig-t164419/index3.html) Except that the OP in this thread has probably received more flak for his statements. Is it possible that some of the hecklers in this thread may have been influenced by the previous thread? Regardless lets all try and be a little nicer to newbies, unless of course they're stalinists :p

[Jose Gracchus]

The point is not the quality of conditions, it's who Palestinians will perceive to be as the enemy. They cannot possibly see the bourgeois as the enemy until the Israeli stops peppering them with bombs. Even if they were able to obtain class consciousness, Israel would destroy Palestine in the ensuing chaos.

Communism isn't something to be 'sold'. I just reject this characterization as having anything to do with historical communist (I mean actually communist, those actually aiming for working-class political autonomy and the abolition of the state and value-production) political movement. It sounds like complete bourgeois politics to me.

Palestine is not going to be in a socialist revolution unless the other major Arab powers in the region, and probably Israel too, is suffering from immense working-class unrest. Socialism-in-one-country is even more extinct than it was in 1925.


The Iranian government has implemented social programs for the poor since the Islamic Revolution. Not nearly enough obviously, but conditions have certainly improved since they got rid of an Imperialist leading their government in exchange for a semi-theocratic government which now has an internal struggle between the secularists and the religious conservatives.

So what? Is it communists' job to lead workers into the arms and tender mercies of Third World populists or demagogues? The US Democrats make more reforms than Republicans, historically. Should workers be guided into their hands?


We've also seen the conditions improve for working people in places like Latin America when they kicked out US puppets. These leaders would later lead to a growing leftist movement in Latin America.

Strike movements in Latin America are oriented AGAINST the bourgeois populists in La Paz and Caracas. Why should we see Morales and Chavez as moving us even one iota closer to actual social revolution? I do not see how some bourgeois factions and politics are somehow 'closer' to the working-class seizing power and constituting itself as ruling class to affect the transition to communism. They are simply one of many ideological pretexts for this-or-that group of capitals to improve accumulation.


Let's look at the situation in Mexico. Aside from the bourgeois, another thing that is hurting the Mexican population is the drug cartels. Suppose you overthrew the Mexican government and established a communist/anarchist society and legalized drug production, this would solve both the cartel problem and the bourgeois problem. Now suppose Palestine overthrows their ruling class. This does not solve the Israeli problem, and the Palestinians would never get there because Israel would absorb the rest of Palestine before they were able to.

The drug cartels are bourgeois, first of all. Secondly, Mexico is not going to undergo a stand-alone socialist revolution. I find it highly unlikely this would be happening without mass strikes and strike waves and social unrest enveloping the United States. Ditto for Palestine; no genuinely socialist movement is going to emerge out of the dank soup of national liberation in that part of the world. History upholds this. Not one single attempt of national liberation or development during the 20th c. in the Third World led to any meaningful breakout by the world working-class against value-production and the state-system. Not one iota closer to communism.

[Belleraphone]

Communism isn't something to be 'sold'. I just reject this characterization as having anything to do with historical communist (I mean actually communist, those actually aiming for working-class political autonomy and the abolition of the state and value-production) political movement. It sounds like complete bourgeois politics to me.

Communism and class consciousness needs to be recognized by the working class in order for it to truly work. We can't go in as a vanguard party, we need the actual support of the people.


So what? Is it communists' job to lead workers into the arms and tender mercies of Third World populists or demagogues? The US Democrats make more reforms than Republicans, historically. Should workers be guided into their hands?

You said these liberation movements did not yield any benefit to the workers. They did. These are real social programs that have real impact, it isn't socialism but it helps working people. If you don't recognize that you have your head in the clouds.


Strike movements in Latin America are oriented AGAINST the bourgeois populists in La Paz and Caracas. Why should we see Morales and Chavez as moving us even one iota closer to actual social revolution? I do not see how some bourgeois factions and politics are somehow 'closer' to the working-class seizing power and constituting itself as ruling class to affect the transition to communism. They are simply one of many ideological pretexts for this-or-that group of capitals to improve accumulation.

As someone from Venezuela, I can tell you personally that you are wrong. I have seen social conditions improve enormously in the surrounding neighborhoods and barrios. I also know for a fact that the majority of politically active Latin Americans have taken a turn for the left, even those among the lower middle class like shopkeepers. They did not have these opinions prior to Chavez. You are totally right that he isn't transferring power to the people directly, but you have to look at the indirect consequences of his policies.


The drug cartels are bourgeois, first of all. Secondly, Mexico is not going to undergo a stand-alone socialist revolution. I find it highly unlikely this would be happening without mass strikes and strike waves and social unrest enveloping the United States. Ditto for Palestine; no genuinely socialist movement is going to emerge out of the dank soup of national liberation in that part of the world. History upholds this. Not one single attempt of national liberation or development during the 20th c. in the Third World led to any meaningful breakout by the world working-class against value-production and the state-system. Not one iota closer to communism.
They are bourgeois but they are also engaged in a war with the formal bourgeois as well as the proletariat. I realize that no socialist movement will arise after Palestine gets its independence. The point is, they aren't physically being threatened with Israeli bombs and weapons, so they can develop class consciousness.


Yes, not opposed to legitimate anti-oppressive groups but not in favor of the Hamas-type Pan-Islamicism that celebrates theocracy and institutes Sharia, as is now the case in the new Libyan constitution.
One of the most popular figures in the Middle East is Erdogan, who's the PM of the relatively secular state of Turkey. Let's get one thing clear, Shariah law is not the same across the board. It can be interpreted in vastly different ways, from Turkey to Saudi Arabia. Time and time again, muslims favor relatively secular, democratic organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood and the Turkish state. Hamas is an exception because they're the only force in Palestine that has a large number of weapons and manpower and still promises to fight off Israeli aggression.

[Stew312856]

Time and time again, muslims favor relatively secular, democratic organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood and the Turkish state. Hamas is an exception because they're the only force in Palestine that has a large number of weapons and manpower and still promises to fight off Israeli aggression.

Muslim Brotherhood SPONSORS Hamas, Hamas is a sexist misogynist cult of male supremacy that actively persecutes PALESTINIAN women, for which there is no excuse. Furthermore, religious based laws do not engender international socialism, quite the opposite, in fact.

[Franz Fanonipants]

can we please restrict this loon asap

[Stew312856]

How am I a loon, we already have dissected the difference between the Socialist Fatah organization, a minority in the PLA, and Hamas, a theocratic party? They are distinct divisions, as different as Falangists and Republicans in Spain, and your apologetics for them is pathetic sexism.

[Franz Fanonipants]

you are a wacko obsessed w/the Spanish Civil War and pretty much have no marxist principles so

[Marcist]

How am I a loon, we already have dissected the difference between the Socialist Fatah organization, a minority in the PLA, and Hamas, a theocratic party? They are distinct divisions, as different as Falangists and Republicans in Spain, and your apologetics for them is pathetic sexism.

I feel you bro.