OWS: Then and Now

[General Lud]

We’re the ones with history on our side right? We’re the one who can diagnose progressions in history and capitalistic dead ends…
Well what of the current movement? What are our thoughts on it now? Is it revolutionary, reactiony, meaningless, a joke, or something to put our hopes in?
What I mean by the question is this: I was curious as to the reaction of us revolutionaries to the OWS movement in its earliest stages. So, I simply went to the first page and read. What I found was disheartening. Comrades; intelligent people I'm sure, with sound understandings of Marxist/radical leftist thought, who were outright dismissive, condescending, and belittling to the movement which has now turned into something it seems we all take quite seriously.
So of what it? The most significant populist/leftist movement in recent American history and we with our diagnostic tools and rational ideology not only failed to see it coming but outright denied the possibility of even marginal success.
If that’s not reactionary, I don’t know what is.
I’m not trying to troll, but I think we should at least recognize the vast cynicism we met this movement with…What does mean for us? What does this say about radical leftist? Why were we so quick to dismiss the possibility of people to resist, recognizing basic inequalities, to see things from a class perspective? Are not the common people the very people we hold up? The grave diggers? Why so snide?
Are we wiser now? Or are we just kidding ourselves?

[Dunk]

There may have been a minority of people who sneered at this across the left in between the time it was called for by Adbusters and the initial week or so. As for myself, I was extremely interested during that time, but I would also say cautiously guarded from enthusiastically embracing it because as a revolutionary, I've conditioned myself to become accustomed to disappointment after disappointment, defeat after defeat for the working class.

Well, we're not sneering now. There's a great many of us who participate and actively support the Occupations.

My thoughts on it now are this; if the Occupations are durable in a time when a new round of this remarkably deep crises is just around the corner, the potential is limitless.

I mean, who among us - a year ago - could have been so optimistic as to suggest among each other that General Strikes would be organized and carried out in a year's time in the United States - the heart of the empire?

[The Douche]

Ummm, I'm still sneering.

A mish mash of liberals and some radicals who can't decide on a single thing and who can't stick by the few tactical decisions they make? Cool.

I think some lessons will be learned and this will be seen as a flash of things to come, but this is honestly not that inspiring to me, in fact, its more disheartening because I can see that the lessons of the anti-war movement have not truly been learned.

[RED DAVE]

Ummm, I'm still sneering.Which just goes to show how immature your politics are.


A mish mash of liberals and some radicals who can't decide on a single thing and who can't stick by the few tactical decisions they make? Cool.You seem to have neglected the fact that it is the largest outpouring of left-wing activity in the heart of the most capitalist nation on Earth in forty or so years.


I think some lessons will be learned and this will be seen as a flash of things to come, but this is honestly not that inspiring to meThen you need to do some self-scruitiny.


in fact, its more disheartening because I can see that the lessons of the anti-war movement have not truly been learned.What lessons are you talking about?

RED DAVE

[The Douche]

What lessons are you talking about?

That you always have to attach positive politics to your negative ones. (i.e. against war/for what? against wall street/for what?)

That you always have to be clear about what it is your against. (i.e. against Iraq, but Afghanistan is just? against crony capitalism, but regulated capitalism is fair?)

That you always have to understand there are different people involved with different approaches, and that if criticism must be made (which it always has to) then it needs to be done within the movement, not by denouncing comrades outside of it.


The anti-war movement is all but dead, because it was co-opted by the democrats, it was co-opted because there were no clear political positions made.


I think the anti-globalization movement was an important step (I was to young to be involved in the big struggles of that movement), I think the anti-war movement was an important step (I got to be integrally involved in that movement on an organizational level), I think that this anti-corporate movement is another important step (which I am not participating in heavily because I'm not willing to make the sacrifices necessary to be involved at the level that would matter).



I'm not against OWS, I'm against its glorification.

[Ele'ill]

Ummm, I'm still sneering.

A mish mash of liberals and some radicals who can't decide on a single thing and who can't stick by the few tactical decisions they make? Cool.

I think some lessons will be learned and this will be seen as a flash of things to come, but this is honestly not that inspiring to me, in fact, its more disheartening because I can see that the lessons of the anti-war movement have not truly been learned.

I agree sort of. I agree that the most annoying part of this for me is that nothing is remembered. Nobody can seemingly remember what happened the previous day regarding something that failed miserably so it's presented and tried again and it just seems like a microcosm of the larger issue. I like the GA's where right as the PA system gets set up there's a verbal fight and seven drunk people yelling and walking about while someone dressed as a clown who's rolling on mdma lays on the ground and then it gets even more ridiculous as a group starts doing yoga and it takes two hours to get things started- in the cold rain- those nights sum up the peak of frustration for me.

In regards to the radicals- there are a lot of radicals active in keeping things glued together and their agitation efforts have worked and people who were liberals are more receptive to radical action and have participated in radical actions. There are a handful of radicals who are pissing about things because they just now entered into the Occupy movement (a month, two months after the fact) and are posting things/fliering/talking about negative aspects of the movement that we've known about since day one. It's a real embarrassment to see these people come into the movement and just start spraying gunfire like that because most of their concerns are inane and focus on issues that have gotten a lot better or which are at this point flat out radicalized but they'd never know it because they haven't been around.

[The Douche]

I agree sort of. I agree that the most annoying part of this for me is that nothing is remembered. Nobody can seemingly remember what happened the previous day regarding something that failed miserably so it's presented and tried again and it just seems like a microcosm of the larger issue. I like the GA's where right as the PA system gets set up there's a verbal fight and seven drunk people yelling and walking about while someone dressed as a clown who's rolling on mdma lays on the ground and then it gets even more ridiculous as a group starts doing yoga and it takes two hours to get things started- in the cold rain- those nights sum up the peak of frustration for me.

In regards to the radicals- there are a lot of radicals active in keeping things glued together and their agitation efforts have worked and people who were liberals are more receptive to radical action and have participated in radical actions. There are a handful of radicals who are pissing about things because they just now entered into the Occupy movement (a month, two months after the fact) and are posting things/fliering/talking about negative aspects of the movement that we've known about since day one. It's a real embarrassment to see these people come into the movement and just start spraying gunfire like that because most of their concerns are inane and focus on issues that have gotten a lot better or which are at this point flat out radicalized but they'd never know it because they haven't been around.

Are you at occupy portland? What do you think about the recent allegations that there are elements of occupy portland to work with the police and organize a clearing of the occupation so they can start again without the "undesirable elements"?

[Dunk]

Criticizing an ever clearer class movement in response to a global crises as insufficiently clear on positive politics and thus lacking potency is the same tune the bourgeois media is singing. I know cmoney criticizes it from a dramatically different perspective from the bourgeois media - and by all means, ruthless criticism is something we should always make use of - but I do suggest that distancing yourself from the Occupations because of such a critique is a mistake. "What we do want" will develop, and I think has already begun developing. It's something real to build on that so many people know "what we don't want."

[The Douche]

Criticizing an ever clearer class movement in response to a global crises as insufficiently clear on positive politics and thus lacking potency is the same tune the bourgeois media is singing. I know cmoney criticizes it from a dramatically different perspective from the bourgeois media - and by all means, ruthless criticism is something we should always make use of - but I do suggest that distancing yourself from the Occupations because of such a critique is a mistake. "What we do want" will develop, and I think has already begun developing. It's something real to build on that so many people know "what we don't want."

I'm not "distancing myself" for any reason. That would imply that I could directly participate but am choosing not to.

I don't have the fiscal means to participate by actually attending an occupation. I spent a lot of time and money working in the anti-war movement, and I don't regret it, but I have obligations now, that are more important to me (providing for myself and my family). So all I can really do is talk to people I know who have the ability to go to these things and do work at them, and contribute what I can from the outside.


My criticism is that this movement is going back through the same painful things the anti-war movement went through, but I don't know that this movement is sustainable. As it gets cold and the state looses its patience, and the election grows closer and the democratic machine swings into full gear. At least the anti-war movement could sustain itself by only doing a few major actions a year, and a few minor ones, and all the rest of it was small meetings and planning. With an occupation movement you have to be able to adapt very quickly, and this movement is not learning how to do it.

[Ele'ill]

Are you at occupy portland? What do you think about the recent allegations that there are elements of occupy portland to work with the police and organize a clearing of the occupation so they can start again without the "undesirable elements"?

I think it's the same mentality that existed before the occupy movement started. We've been dealing with that the entire time- oh the stories I could recant about it. About the finance committee (self appointed invisible committee) running off with 20k in donations. It's all old news- serious news but nothing new.

You know the difference now? Cop apologies and undemocratic actions are meeting resistance by pretty much everyone. What I don't understand about some radicals is that they seem to think that there's no building process. You're not going to get people involved by not having them involved and this is one of the largest mobilizations attracting lots of people that we've had in a very long time. This is an opportunity. I'm not sure what type of opportunity radicals are waiting for- a revolution? That's not work- sorry, it's gonna take work.

[RED DAVE]

What lessons [from the antiwar movement] are you talking about[QUOTE=cmoney;2287950]That you always have to attach positive politics to your negative ones. (i.e. against war/for what? against wall street/for what?)You are failing to view Occupy Wall Street as a process.


That you always have to be clear about what it is your against. (i.e. against Iraq, but Afghanistan is just? against crony capitalism, but regulated capitalism is fair?)You are failing to view Occupy Wall Street as a process.


That you always have to understand there are different people involved with different approaches, and that if criticism must be made (which it always has to) then it needs to be done within the movement, not by denouncing comrades outside of it.You are failing to view Occupy Wall Street as a process.


The anti-war movement is all but dead, because it was co-opted by the democrats, it was co-opted because there were no clear political positions made.You are failing to view Occupy Wall Street as a process.


I think the anti-globalization movement was an important step (I was to young to be involved in the big struggles of that movement), I think the anti-war movement was an important step (I got to be integrally involved in that movement on an organizational level), I think that this anti-corporate movement is another important step (which I am not participating in heavily because I'm not willing to make the sacrifices necessary to be involved at the level that would matter).[/quote[All this is true. But for someone who doesn't want to become significantly involved, you are taking some very strong stands.

[QUOTE=cmoney;2287950]I'm not against OWS, I'm against its glorification.So, hopefully, is everyone else around here.

RED DAVE

[Ele'ill]

The Occupy Together movement is tactically important in the shift of consciousness necessary to begin other aspects of revolutionary agitation and organizing.

[The Douche]

I do think OWS is a process, I tried to demonstrate that with this statement:


I think that this anti-corporate movement is another important step

So far, it has failed to take what the anti-war movement learned/didn't learn and move forward/make corrections.

I hope that it can, but I don't see any indications yet that it is.


All this is true. But for someone who doesn't want to become significantly involved, you are taking some very strong stands.

Its not that I don't want to, but I cannot afford to pick up and leave my job, my home, and my partner for an undecided amount of time, all while risking arrest in an area in which I do not live in order to participate in this struggle this way.

I made such sacrifices in the past, just as I'm sure you did. But are you out sleeping in a tent in freedom park?

I'm making what contributions I can, by talking with friends of mine who are involved in Oscar Grant plaza, thats where I know people, so thats who I'm talking to. Outside of that there is nothing I can do.

It does me no good to loose my job and spend a bunch of money in legal costs to head to DC and sleep in a park. I resent the implication that I cannot talk about observations in the context of my prior experiences in mass movements without being explicitly, physically involved in this one.