Greek prime minister forced out

[mrmikhail]

Finally the Greek PM has resigned under pressure:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/nov2011/gree-n07.shtml

[Le Socialiste]

I fail to see how this represents much in the way of progress for the workers' efforts there. Regardless of whoever is in power, the working-class of Greece still faces the daunting task of ousting the ruling-classes and eliminating the need for bourgeois parliamentarism in "surmounting" the financial and social crisis ahead. The resignation of Papandreou serves a twofold purpose: 1) to provide some semblance of accountability for the government's handling of the crisis, and 2) to strengthen the unity of those involved in the handling of austerity. The ruling-classes are closing rank, which - if anything - signifies that if they weren't worried about the consequences of a rapidly deteriorating financial crisis and a devolving social situation they sure as hell are now.

[Smyg]

One down, now we just need to get rid of the rest. :rolleyes:

[mrmikhail]

I fail to see how this represents much in the way of progress for the workers' efforts there. Regardless of whoever is in power, the working-class of Greece still faces the daunting task of ousting the ruling-classes and eliminating the need for bourgeois parliamentarism in "surmounting" the financial and social crisis ahead. The resignation of Papandreou serves a twofold purpose: 1) to provide some semblance of accountability for the government's handling of the crisis, and 2) to strengthen the unity of those involved in the handling of austerity. The ruling-classes are closing rank, which - if anything - signifies that if they weren't worried about the consequences of a rapidly deteriorating financial crisis and a devolving social situation they sure as hell are now.

This much is true I suppose, the austerity measure proposed by the EU is more than likely to pass, even with a government of national unity. But it does seem that they are worried of a military intervention in the matter, so I am not sure how to feel about this issue to be honest. It would also seem that if the EU austerity measure isn't passed, the EU and the IMF will abandon Greece to it's own problems.

[Le Socialiste]

This much is true I suppose, the austerity measure proposed by the EU is more than likely to pass, even with a government of national unity. But it does seem that they are worried of a military intervention in the matter, so I am not sure how to feel about this issue to be honest. It would also seem that if the EU austerity measure isn't passed, the EU and the IMF will abandon Greece to it's own problems.

Well, it is becoming increasingly clear to the EU, the IMF, and the ECB that forcing the weight of the crisis onto the backs of the working-class can't be done using "democratic" means. This means that if the situation deteriorates to the point of open revolt the so-called troika will have to rely on other, less democratic institutions (like the Greek military). If the new national unity government can't provide the results demanded by the Europeans and the IMF it may face the prospect of military intervention to ensure the austerity is passed through and enforced.

[mrmikhail]

Well, it is becoming increasingly clear to the EU, the IMF, and the ECB that forcing the weight of the crisis onto the backs of the working-class can't be done using "democratic" means. This means that if the situation deteriorates to the point of open revolt the so-called troika will have to rely on other, less democratic institutions (like the Greek military). If the new national unity government can't provide the results demanded by the Europeans and the IMF it may face the prospect of military intervention to ensure the austerity is passed through and enforced.

I believe an American business magazine wrote an article stating that a military coup was the answer to all of "Greece's" problems (the problem of making the EU and IMF money). Truly I don't see the unions backing down to the new "national unity" government, they will stick to the workers and ultimately I fear a military coup may be in line, with the quiet if not outright support of the EU/US


just found the article on it on WSWS:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/nov2011/forb-n04.shtml

[Le Socialiste]

I believe an American business magazine wrote an article stating that a military coup was the answer to all of "Greece's" problems (the problem of making the EU and IMF money). Truly I don't see the unions backing down to the new "national unity" government, they will stick to the workers and ultimately I fear a military coup may be in line, with the quiet if not outright support of the EU/US


just found the article on it on WSWS:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/nov2011/forb-n04.shtml

The problem is the major trade unions and 'left' parties have been a part of this austerity process from day one. They speak of solidarity with the workers while ensuring that they don't mobilize forcefully against the government. The use of general and rolling strikes serve the necessary role of allowing the working-class to let off a little steam at the government, but even this is proving difficult to contain. The reality is the unions and their allies on the official left are struggling to put a lid on worker dissatisfaction and militancy without appearing complicit with the government's efforts to push through austerity. This is becoming increasingly impossible though, and a rising number of Greeks are beginning to question the role of the unions and parties in the crisis. If the working-class can engage in the self-mobilization of its own members into a series of interconnected committees and councils based on revolutionary theory and practice we're set to go.

As for the Forbes article, it's not totally surprising. The American media has been pushing for harsher, more repressive measures against the Greeks for some time now.

[mrmikhail]

The problem is the major trade unions and 'left' parties have been a part of this austerity process from day one. They speak of solidarity with the workers while ensuring that they don't mobilize forcefully against the government. The use of general and rolling strikes serve the necessary role of allowing the working-class to let off a little steam at the government, but even this is proving difficult to contain. The reality is the unions and their allies on the official left are struggling to put a lid on worker dissatisfaction and militancy without appearing complicit with the government's efforts to push through austerity. This is becoming increasingly impossible though, and a rising number of Greeks are beginning to question the role of the unions and parties in the crisis. If the working-class can engage in the self-mobilization of its own members into a series of interconnected committees and councils based on revolutionary theory and practice we're set to go.

As for the Forbes article, it's not totally surprising. The American media has been pushing for harsher, more repressive measures against the Greeks for some time now.

If this is the case, then if the national unity government did pass the austerity measures, the working class could be pushed over the line and have this whole thing of striking turn into open revolt and revolution. Though if this were to happen I can but imagine the Greek military would immediately step in to attempt to crush it and potentially set off a second Greek Civil War.

[Le Socialiste]

If this is the case, then if the national unity government did pass the austerity measures, the working class could be pushed over the line and have this whole thing of striking turn into open revolt and revolution. Though if this were to happen I can but imagine the Greek military would immediately step in to attempt to crush it and potentially set off a second Greek Civil War.

It's certainly possible, but if it became clear to NATO and the EU that the Greek military was faltering they would most definitely intervene to preserve their hold over the situation.

[mrmikhail]

It's certainly possible, but if it became clear to NATO and the EU that the Greek military was faltering they would most definitely intervene to preserve their hold over the situation.

I fully believe this is true, can't expect the creditors to let the workers win so easily, but I do wonder if NATO would be willing to commit to another war, with possible, and very likely, guerrilla style fighting...

[Mather]

This much is true I suppose, the austerity measure proposed by the EU is more than likely to pass, even with a government of national unity.


It is for that very reason that the EU is pushing Greece to have this 'national unity' government.


But it does seem that they are worried of a military intervention in the matter, so I am not sure how to feel about this issue to be honest.

If the capitalist class feels itself to be under threat (like the Greek capitalist class does) then the possibility of a military intervention is very real. Even the main news channels and newspapers have discussed the possibility of a military coup taking place, especially after Papandreou fired the military top brass.


It would also seem that if the EU austerity measure isn't passed, the EU and the IMF will abandon Greece to it's own problems.

They will if they can see that they have no way of enforcing it.

But that does not necessarily mean that the problems of Greece would be any worse than if they had accepted EU/IMF diktat. Argentina defaulted on it's debts and now it is in a better position than it was back in 2001. For the Greek people, default would not be as painful as EU/IMF imposed austerity.


I believe an American business magazine wrote an article stating that a military coup was the answer to all of "Greece's" problems (the problem of making the EU and IMF money).

I remember reading that, the author claimed the title was a bad joke but I think the real purpose of the article was to test opinion to such an idea.


If this is the case, then if the national unity government did pass the austerity measures, the working class could be pushed over the line and have this whole thing of striking turn into open revolt and revolution. Though if this were to happen I can but imagine the Greek military would immediately step in to attempt to crush it and potentially set off a second Greek Civil War.

The Greek military is based on conscription service, so most soldiers are not professional ones. Past historical examples of revolutions and times of social unrest have shown that conscript armies have seen soldiers join the side of the revolutionaries. We could (hopefully) see splits within the Greek military if a working class revolution were to happen.

[mrmikhail]

An update on the matter:

http://wsws.org/articles/2011/nov2011/gree-n08.shtml

Go figure the guy they get to replace Papandreou is a former Bank leader, US educated and US backed.....

And Italy is next up, once their 10 year bonds rating hits 7% (this is when Greece hit it's economic situation) the EU is really in deep shit, and as of now it's up to 6.5%, so things on the capitalist front are not looking good at the moment.

[Rainsborough]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15631265


Shortly after markets opened on Tuesday, Italian 10-year bond yields spiked at 6.74% (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15635037).

getting warmer.

[mrmikhail]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15631265



getting warmer.

Berlusconi is done for, there is no way he will make it through this vote, he'll be the last of the big 5 governments to fall under pressure of the EU

and wow....the Italian and with it the EU economy is really going to be done for soon....

Especially considering the hit the EU took when Greece, which only contributes to a total of 3% of the European economy, went under, I cannot imagine the hit it will take once Italy goes down the same road

[Rainsborough]

Berlusconi is done for, there is no way he will make it through this vote, he'll be the last of the big 5 governments to fall under pressure of the EU

and wow....the Italian and with it the EU economy is really going to be done for soon....

Especially considering the hit the EU took when Greece, which only contributes to a total of 3% of the European economy, went under, I cannot imagine the hit it will take once Italy goes down the same road

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15638773


Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's key coalition partner has urged him to step aside ahead of a crucial budget vote.

Northern League leader Umberto Bossi is a volatile ally who brought down Mr Berlusconi's first government in 1994.

Oh dear, a crook dismissed by a fascist.

[Grenzer]

It's pretty unsurprising that this happened.

The moment he announced that referendum he might as well have tendered his resignation. The last thing they want is for the people to make their own decisions.

[mrmikhail]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15646536

http://www.marxist.com/italy-berlusconi-losees-parliamentary-majority.htm

And so goes the last of the five governments. But I must say Berlusconi is not only a crook, but also pretty much a fascist. Now to await the opening of European markets to see where those Italian bond interest rates hit, I can but imagine they are to be well over the 7% mark where the other 4 nations had to seek bailouts. Perhaps we are seeing the end of an Imperialist organisation, dying of it's own policies.

[scarletghoul]

I wish the UK had changed to Euro

[mrmikhail]

I wish the UK had changed to Euro

Seems as though the UK had the foresight to see this coming, that is why they maintained their currency.....but had they joined it would have made the Euro so highly valued that this entire collapse might have happened a lot sooner than now....so I gotta agree with you there, wish they would have as well...

[Rainsborough]

I wish the UK had changed to Euro

Osborne was on the news last night warning of the consequences of a Euro Zone melt-down for us. The loss of markets would have a severe effect on our economy.
So for all those smug British bourgeoise who watch developments within Greece etc, while slapping themselves on the backs through having stayed out of the Euro, :p Your turn will come.

[Mather]

Seems as though the UK had the foresight to see this coming, that is why they maintained their currency.....

Foresight had nothing to do with it.

Not one member of the ruling class saw the economic crisis coming. Businessmen, politicians and the army of useless economists and 'analysts' all failed in this endeavour.

When the Euro was introduced in 1999, the EU (and Britains relationship with it) was a big political issue in the public discourse. The government at the time (under Tony Blair) wanted to join the Euro but they didn't due to voter hostility to it. By the time Gordon Brown came into office the economic crisis was starting to make itself apparent so all attention shifted to that.

In Britain it was nationalism that pushed the political class to opt out of the Euro, not foresight.

[ZeroNowhere]

I wish the UK had changed to Euro
Eh, it's still a part of Europe. People here are pretty worried about what's going down with the Euro, and the consequences it'll have on the British economy.

[mrmikhail]

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/breakout/european-crisis-fears-sink-u-stocks-212918039.html

Italy is down, the Eurozone is going down, and the US is going down with it it would seem, so on the note of the UK, they will be crushed losing the Eurozone market...it seems Germany is the only economy holding the zone together, and I doubt they can hold out much longer, or if they'd be willing to risk their economy at all by staying within it.

[mrmikhail]

Three days after the Greek government has fallen, the nation still remains without a functioning government due to in fighting and bickering between the right wing parties, leaving Greece's future still in question. While the Germans begin to take seemingly more direct measures.

Speaking yesterday, German Chancellor Angela Merkel made clear there is no longer any room for national governments to do anything other than meet the demands of the global financial oligarchs—and the specific interests of German imperialism as Europe’s leading economic power.
Speaking of Papandreou’s abandoned October 31 proposal for a referendum on the terms of the Greek bailout, which provoked a massive run on the markets, Merkel said EU summit had concluded “there is no such thing any more as domestic policy making. Domestic is what’s inside the currency area. Greece can no longer decide all by itself the issue of whether it should hold a referendum or not.”

The Germans have apparently, as is shown, stated there is no national sovereignty if a nation owes them money and must bow to their demands whatever the cost to their people, furthermore the Germans are also calling for a revision to the EU treaty to allow the EU to have even more control over member state's budgets if they are in debt. The Germans are essentially calling for outright dictatorial authority over member states and not giving the slightest damn about the working people, no matter if they must take a 50% wage cut, as long as they make their cash. As the situation in the Eurozone moves from bad to dire, it seems the forces of reaction are all too quick to squeeze the last bit of cash they can out of the markets no matter the cost.

http://wsws.org/articles/2011/nov2011/gree-n10.shtml

[Rainsborough]

Posted this elsewhere, but it deals with the so called 'Frankfurt Group' of which Merkel is a leading, if not the leading, star.


http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/Ins...97707.html?x=0 (http://www.anonym.to/?http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/Insight-Euro-new-politburo-no-reuters_molt-32697707.html?x=0)



Forged in the fire of a bond market inferno, the shadowy so-called Frankfurt Group has grabbed the helm of the 17-nation currency area in a few short weeks.Well I guess the games up for the Greeks toe the line or else.:crying:

[brigadista]

good post by FSL on the greece newswire thread about the new PM

[mrmikhail]

Posted this elsewhere, but it deals with the so called 'Frankfurt Group' of which Merkel is a leading, if not the leading, star.


http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/Ins...97707.html?x=0 (http://www.anonym.to/?http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/Insight-Euro-new-politburo-no-reuters_molt-32697707.html?x=0)


Well I guess the games up for the Greeks toe the line or else.:crying:

Yes indeed, the Frankfurt group has forced it's way to the top with Merkel at it's helm. This group reeks of outright and blatant imperialism and far right winged capitalism and seemingly will stop at nothing to achieve their own goals and haven't a single care for who is truly suffering at their hands. Greece is either going to have to take austerity measures or default and be thrown out of the Eurozone, then into economic depression far worse than current....seems to be a no win situation to be totally honest. And with the Germans in charge, I woudn't be holding my hopes too high were I Italy, Ireland, Spain, or Portugal either.

[mrmikhail]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/nov2011/left-n12.shtml


Greece’s trade unions and pseudo-socialist parties have ruled out any attempt to mobilize the working class in a political struggle against the new technocratic regime in Athens, installed at the behest of the European and American financial elite. Instead, they are advancing the perspective of a bourgeois “left” unity government to smother working class opposition to the new government and its austerity program.

So the "left" of Greece is just going to abandon the working class and toe the line of the Frankfort Group like well trained dogs.

[Rainsborough]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/nov2011/left-n12.shtml



So the "left" of Greece is just going to abandon the working class and toe the line of the Frankfort Group like well trained dogs.

Sadly, did you really expect anything more? To hell with what's happening today, we must 'agitate' for a future revolution, and when that day comes we must agitate some more.