My first encounter with a spartacist

[citizen of industry]

:tt2:

[Sasha]

summary;
"My first encounter with a spartacist [...]It was the height of sectarianism."

sounds like the usual recipe

[eyeheartlenin]

they (Chukaku-ha) also consider soldiers and vets workers, which the sparts don't

I am a veteran. When I moved to Boston, decades ago, I met some Spartacist League (SL) people, and they were friendly, and I never heard from them that veterans (or soldiers) are not workers. On the contrary, at one point in the past, the SL published a leaflet aimed specifically at soldiers.

Having read Workers Vanguard for years, it is clear to me that what the SL actually says, unlike several other English-language organizations that invoke Trotsky's writings, is that the police are not workers, and that is what Trotsky explicitly said, in the old pamphlet, Fascism: What It Is, and How to Fight It. I should clarify that I do not represent the SL in any way.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Was she the American woman that they've had stationed in Japan for several years? Their group there is very tiny. I remember Loren Goldner saying he was surprised at a rally in Japan once to see her standing in a big crowd holding a Spart sign. He had known her from earlier years of activism in the states.

Her intervention from the outside and style of interaction with you is a part of the Sparts' strategy of recruiting from "ostensibly revolutionary groups" (OSGs). Nothing new there. You're free to disagree with it.

One good thing about the Spart sliver over there is their principled stance against violence between groups they consider to be a part of the workers movement (i.e. left groups), which as I'm sure you know has been a real problem in Japan historically.

"As a Marxist organization, we defend all trade unions and leftist organizations, irrespective of their particular political views or affiliations, against all attacks and threats from the bosses and the bosses' state.... The SGJ has a long history against violence within the workers movement. In our 1986 founding document, we wrote: 'We defend workers democracy and decisively reject the gangsterism and thuggery that the Japanese 'far lefts' inflict upon each other's organizations. Such behavior has everything in common with the most infamous methods of Stalinism and must be rooted out of the workers movement." - http://www.icl-fi.org/english/leaflets/oldsite/2003/sgj-statement.htm

[Commissar Rykov]

You should have just said you were a Marxist-Leninist to watch her head explode it would have been more fun than Trot Fighting for sure. Do it next time.:D

[Aurora]

1)See Spartacist
2)Mention Logan dossier
3)????
4)Profit!

[eyeheartlenin]

Thanks to sailorjay for an interesting post. If I remember correctly, Spartacist first published a story defending nuclear power in the late seventies, during the struggle to shut down the Seabrook reactor, which was a big deal in New England. It still surprised me that Spartacist in Japan is pro-nuclear, even after Hiroshima and Fukushima.

It will really change the political terrain in the US far left when Spartacist disappears, probably in the coming decade. In one respect that will be a definite loss, since they are always very critical when other tendencies fall in line behind the Democrats, which is, I believe, the most serious failing of the US left, as shown by the 2008 presidential election.

[Ocean Seal]

That's silly everyone knows that you should let petty meaningless ideological differences stop you from marching with others. I mean, its clear that those differences are important and will obviously manifest themselves extremely soon because IIRC the revolution is supposed to come tomorrow so we'll obviously have to determine which tendency is right by then instead of laboring together against capitalism.

[A Marxist Historian]

She explicitly told me "police and soldiers are not workers." I agree with the police bit and we hashed around the soldier bit for a couple minutes, eventually agreeing that the individual soldiers aren't reactionary, but the institution is. Okay, I can buy that. Being pro-nuke is fair enough, I guess, it's debatable. But taking that position will definitely alienate them from the left and organized labor in Japan. Even the pro-capital Rengo federation recently reversed their position on nuclear power.



It's kind of an odd strategy. I'm happy to debate, but the timing was all wrong. We're on the march, it's loud as hell, beating drums, I'm with my union. And she's telling me she doesn't support the march I'm in. Doesn't seem to be a very effective way to recruit.

She wasn't Japanese and from what I hear there are only a couple Japanese members in the group. Because of their pro-nuke stance, they sent a solidarity letter to Denryoku Soren (The Federation of Electric Power Related Industry Worker's Union), which is a far right union of Rengo that promoted the privatization of the national railways, the dissolution of the Sohyo federation and the creation of Rengo in it's place. They (Denryoko Soren) demanded utility companies to outsource jobs in the nuclear plants. As a result of this, 90% of the workers suffering from radioactivity are sub-contractors. Not a good way to make friends.

I read that letter, published in the Workers Vanguard. It wasn't a solidarity letter with the union's leaders, but with the workers at the plant who are members of it, who have been risking their lives and undoubtedly getting cancer trying desperately to contain the leak. There was also a financial appeal for help for them, and they sent a small check themselves. It didn't include a denunciation of the union's leaders because that would have been highly inappropriate and sectarian in a letter like that. The article in the Workers Vanguard about the disaster had plenty of criticism of the union leaderships of the various unions, their not organizing the casuals etc.

And their position on the disaster is not simply "pro nuke." They are neutral on which energy sources ought to be used, seeing that as the capitalists' problem, which the workers will need to worrry about after they take the power but not before, and meanwhile the thing to do is to organize the energy workers, demand better safety measures, and demand that all energy companies be expropriated as part of the overall socialist program.

But the reality is that Japan is totally dependent on nuclear power at this point. Denuclearizing Japan is utterly impossible, whether or not it is a good idea. If done, it would completely destroy the already tremendously damaged Japanese economy. That the Japanese left has thrown itself almost unanimously into this pipedream in pursuit of momentary popularity with people understandably freaked out by the disaster places a brick wall between it and any possibility of real success.

As for the military issue, there was a certain failure to communicate there I think. Rank and file soldiers, especially volunteers like in Japan and the USA, are not *automatically* part of the working class, though many of course come from working class backgrounds and are lured in by the "economic draft." They are not cops, but neither are they workers as such. And of course the *officers* are the class enemy.

I think that was all she was trying to say. I hope so at least!

As for her not going on the march, no doubt the real reason was what a tiny group they are, and not wanting to waste very limited time on a long march with limited opportunity for political discussion, what with banging drums and lurking fascists and cops. Perhaps she should have been more upfront about that. That she didn't support the central march slogan was a great excuse to save wear and tear on the feet, but not the real reason she didn't march.

-M.H.-

[Q]

You should ask them next time on their position regarding the salvation work the US army is doing in Haiti.

[Aurora]

You should ask them next time on their position regarding the salvation work the US army is doing in Haiti.

To be fair to the sparts they did print this in their paper and on their website:


Much of the pre-conference discussion and debate took as a starting point our repudiation of the ICL’s betrayal of Marxist principle over U.S. and United Nations troops in Haiti. As we wrote in a statement issued by the IEC on 27 April 2010:

“In its articles on the Haitian earthquake, Workers Vanguard, the newspaper of the Spartacist League/U.S., committed a betrayal of the fundamental principle of opposition to one’s ‘own’ imperialist rulers. In addition to justifying the U.S. imperialist troops as essential to the aid effort, these articles polemicized against the principled and correct position of demanding the immediate withdrawal of the troops.”
—“A Capitulation to U.S. Imperialism,” Workers Vanguard No. 958, 7 May 2010

Bold mine, i can't think of another organisation that is principled enough to admit they made a massive mistake and to openly state such in as harsh and honest language as they do above.

[A Marxist Historian]

That's silly everyone knows that you should let petty meaningless ideological differences stop you from marching with others. I mean, its clear that those differences are important and will obviously manifest themselves extremely soon because IIRC the revolution is supposed to come tomorrow so we'll obviously have to determine which tendency is right by then instead of laboring together against capitalism.

Actually, on second thought, if you disagree with the central slogan of a march, in this case end nuclear power, going on the march to pester people about that seems kind of silly, and would probably just annoy them further unproductively.

Selling papers as the march begins and putting forth your POV is more honest really.

-M.H.-

[Commissar Rykov]

Actually, on second thought, if you disagree with the central slogan of a march, in this case end nuclear power, going on the march to pester people about that seems kind of silly, and would probably just annoy them further unproductively.

Selling papers as the march begins and putting forth your POV is more honest really.

-M.H.-
I can understand that. I didn't show up to a local occupy demo that was basically about getting people out to vote. I mean I could have shown up and started screaming about casting off our shackles and forging our plowshares into swords but I think it would have been offputting if not comical.

[A Marxist Historian]

[QUOTE=A Marxist Historian;2288027]But the reality is that Japan is totally dependent on nuclear power at this point. Denuclearizing Japan is utterly impossible, whether or not it is a good idea. If done, it would completely destroy the already tremendously damaged Japanese economy. That the Japanese left has thrown itself almost unanimously into this pipedream in pursuit of momentary popularity with people understandably freaked out by the disaster places a brick wall between it and any possibility of real success.[\QUOTE]

We actually didn't discuss the nuclear issue much. It was an annual labor rally, and nuclear power wasn't the central theme of the rally, though there were anti-nuke groups present and most, but not all of the unions attending had officially taken an anti nuclear position. It was one theme of the rally.

A few years ago they shut down all the nuclear plants in Japan for inspection. This summer many plants were shut down and the country took conservation measures. Nuclear power is a minority of the energy here and the country can do without it. Various tendencies disagree as to whether it should be phased out or shut down immediately, but even most democrats agree it should go. The government and power industry has been shoving it down people's throats for decades against popular concensus. The people understandably freaked out by the disaster, Fukushima parents, for example, spoke at the rally. 30% of the kids in the 20km zone are showing signs of thyroid irregularities and the local government is serving local produce in schools. They've upped the acceptable limit for radiation exposure for children, the gov. lied about the plant melting down for weeks, there are no closed-circuit cooling systems installed and Tepco is pouring water directly on the rods still so radiation is still emitting, the Tokai plant almost melted down as well, the remaining plants are unreliable, etc., etc., etc., etc. As I said, it's debatable and we could go around in circles throwing facts and figures at each other.

You know, on September 19th over 60,000 people assembled and marched against nuclear power. Organized workers, non-organized workers, representatives from the whole left, except, well, for the Spartacists I assume.

But anyway the central theme of the rally was the privatization of Japan National Railways and the reinstatement of the 1,047 dismissed workers, a fight back against unemployment, building an international network of labor unions to fight back against neoliberalism, and, yes, the abolishment of nuclear power plants. Another point of the annual march itself, is to prove the militant unions are capable of assembling in greater numbers than the large conservative federations, who have millions of members on paper, but are a paper tiger.

Selling papers to people demonstrating against something they passionately believe in, but putting forth a POV contrary to theirs, basically telling them they shouldn't be demonstrating, may be an honest opinion, but doesn't seem very productive to me. Especially when it is a splinter.

Even if they didn't feel like marching, the pre-march rally was several hours long, and attending it would have been a great way to talk to people, including the ILWU folks they praise in their paper, without all the noise and the cops.

The paper itself though is pretty good. It was worth the 100yen. I'd buy it again.

Actually, I'll then have to perhaps surprise a few folk and agree. If the central theme of the march/rally was against privatizing the railroad, and this was an annual radical labor march, then boycotting it on the grounds that one of its slogans was end nuclear power was sectarian and foolish.

Now, I'm here in America and not in Japan, but what I've read claims that Japan by now has a high enough percentage of its power supplied by nuke plants that closing them all down would be a body blow to an already battered economy. Even if it's only "merely" say a quarter or a third instead of the majority of energy resources.

Which doesn't mean of course that plants like the Fukushima shouldn't be temporarily closed down and gone over with a fine toothed comb, as Japan even more can't afford any more disasters like that. And the way Tepco is handling this disaster is beyond atrocious, Tepco should be expropriated without compensation yesterday, and put under firm workers control, with the admittedly dreadful union given veto rights over every move of management--and said union democratized, with all the part timers who are getting the worst of all this decasualized, given equal pay and full membership rights.

And definitely they shouldn't build any *more* nuke plants, Japan clearly has too many already.

-M.H.-

[kurr]

Eh.. Any Spart I've met have been real old and somewhat out of touch. Kinda like most Trots.

[Kassad]

I like playing a game called "see if you can get the Spartacist to give you a copy of Workers Vanguard for free." You will always lose, regardless of how interested you are.

[A Marxist Historian]

I like playing a game called "see if you can get the Spartacist to give you a copy of Workers Vanguard for free." You will always lose, regardless of how interested you are.

You will win if you are a striking worker who is broke because of the reasons the strike is about. If you are just cheap, you won't.

-M.H.-

[Kassad]

You will win if you are a striking worker who is broke because of the reasons the strike is about. If you are just cheap, you won't.

-M.H.-

I'd have to get paid $1 to read another issue of Workers Vanguard. Half of the content of the paper is just spewing attacks on other organizations from a holier-than-thou perspective, which workers don't give a shit about because they have never heard of half of the organizations. The other half is usually filled with hilarious headlines like "DEFEND THE NORTH KOREAN DEFORMED WORKERS STATE." That's something the proletariat can really take up, right? :rolleyes:

But seriously, you've been taking part in the exact same tactics since your inception. What has been the result? Splits. Lots of splits. Your membership, like most leftist groups, is very tiny and has no presence in most states. Tired tactics aren't going to magically catch on, thus your constant baiting of other groups and in-your-face phraseology is going to keep you on the road you've been on for decades: the road to the waste basket.

[A Marxist Historian]

I'd have to get paid $1 to read another issue of Workers Vanguard. Half of the content of the paper is just spewing attacks on other organizations from a holier-than-thou perspective, which workers don't give a shit about because they have never heard of half of the organizations. The other half is usually filled with hilarious headlines like "DEFEND THE NORTH KOREAN DEFORMED WORKERS STATE." That's something the proletariat can really take up, right? :rolleyes:

But seriously, you've been taking part in the exact same tactics since your inception. What has been the result? Splits. Lots of splits. Your membership, like most leftist groups, is very tiny and has no presence in most states. Tired tactics aren't going to magically catch on, thus your constant baiting of other groups and in-your-face phraseology is going to keep you on the road you've been on for decades: the road to the waste basket.

Yawn. If you don't like the paper don't buy it, and certainly don't try to cadge freebies.

Actually, in recent years headlines in WV use fewer terms only the cognoscenti can grasp than once upon a time, and spend much less time polemicizing vs. the rest of the left, which, as we all know, has been in rapid decline and plunging to the right worldwide since the Soviet Union collapsed.

Now the headline would be something more like "defend North Korea against US imperialism," something that Americans might have trouble with, but South Koreans would understand instantly.

If selling a communist paper in South Korea were legal that is, it ain't. Pro-North Korean folk in the South get life sentences and torture.

Meanwhile, at least the Spartacists still exist. I remember when there used to be lots of Maoist organizations in America, big ones in fact. Now, gone with the wind... Except for the RCP of course, which has turned into a religious cult worshipping Saint Bob Avakian.

-M.H.-

[Kassad]

Trust me, I won't buy it. Or your sectarian delusions. I've had my fill of outdated tactics that don't benefit the international communist movement whatsoever. Also, your statement that "at least the Spartacists still exist" is pretty amusing. Newsflash: so does the Lyndon LaRouche PAC. And the Klan, for that matter. Your logic is incredibly faulty and you're not going to convince anyone that the same old Spartacist tactics that didn't work in the 70's (and have actually alienated the vast majority of the left) are magically going to work in the 21st century.

[mrmikhail]

Trust me, I won't buy it. Or your sectarian delusions. I've had my fill of outdated tactics that don't benefit the international communist movement whatsoever. Also, your statement that "at least the Spartacists still exist" is pretty amusing. Newsflash: so does the Lyndon LaRouche PAC. And the Klan, for that matter. Your logic is incredibly faulty and you're not going to convince anyone that the same old Spartacist tactics that didn't work in the 70's (and have actually alienated the vast majority of the left) are magically going to work in the 21st century.

Perfect point, if "existing" is success then by that estimate almost every group out there, be it on the right, left, or centre, has obtained it. Those Spartacus logics are faulty, at best, and outright hypocracy in a more realistic assessment. The fact they A Marxist Historian, and the rest of the SL respond to every disagreement with a holier than thou/condescending attitude of if you don't believe me you are wrong and deserve to be attacked with outright ad hominen. I honestly cannot wait for the SL to be gone and done for, and remembered as a former Trotskyist organisation who betrayed the very ideals of Trotskyism and became nothing but a college book group of bourgeois inteligensia who long ago abandoned the workers and their struggle.

[Lucretia]

Perfect point, if "existing" is success then by that estimate almost every group out there, be it on the right, left, or centre, has obtained it. Those Spartacus logics are faulty, at best, and outright hypocracy in a more realistic assessment. The fact they A Marxist Historian, and the rest of the SL respond to every disagreement with a holier than thou/condescending attitude of if you don't believe me you are wrong and deserve to be attacked with outright ad hominen. I honestly cannot wait for the SL to be gone and done for, and remembered as a former Trotskyist organisation who betrayed the very ideals of Trotskyism and became nothing but a college book group of bourgeois inteligensia who long ago abandoned the workers and their struggle.

As somebody who has had a pretty involved discussion with him about state capitalism, I can say that, whatever his disagreements with me, A Marxist Historian does not respond to those disagreements with a condescending attitude or with ad hominem attacks.

[A Marxist Historian]

Trust me, I won't buy it. Or your sectarian delusions. I've had my fill of outdated tactics that don't benefit the international communist movement whatsoever. Also, your statement that "at least the Spartacists still exist" is pretty amusing. Newsflash: so does the Lyndon LaRouche PAC. And the Klan, for that matter. Your logic is incredibly faulty and you're not going to convince anyone that the same old Spartacist tactics that didn't work in the 70's (and have actually alienated the vast majority of the left) are magically going to work in the 21st century.

For the last 20 years or so, *nobody's" tactics are working very well. We have been living through a dreadful period. The Spartacists actually have had a few successes, unlike the rest of the American left.

Because of the Mumia campaign which they basically started, and played a huge role in, Mumia is at least still alive. And the united front rallies they initiated in the '80s and '90s vs. Nazis and the Klan had a bunch of successes, and to this day it is difficult for fascists in America to march in major cities without being chased out of town. They have to skulk in the backwoods.

And as for alienating "the rest of the left," given the dreadful state of the left these days, I'm not even sure if that's a bad thing.

And just how successful has your RCP been? Such a wonderful success that you guys had to flee from it in quite justified horror and start your Kasama project.

-M.H.-

[Jimmie Higgins]

This thread should just stop now. I don't know if people on this website realize it or not, but there are hundreds to thousands of people holding open-ended populist protests in many cities in the US and throughout the world. Working class people in the US are beginning to push against their unions and initiate actions like in Madison Wisc. There are larger revolts of young people in North Africa and Europe.

The whole left has suffered and just tried to manage to survive over the last generation - there is not much the RCP or the Sparts could have done to reverse the objective factors; what they could do during this time is just try and keep their political rafts afloat during a time of a one-sided class war.

Now, though, our side is beginning to nudge back and it seems like the one-sided part of the struggle is ending - if this turns out to be the case, the class struggle will help distinguish in practice what works and what doesn't and who walks the walk and talks the talk.

As to the OP, my understanding of where the Sparts is coming from is that they are trying to win the left of a popular struggle to class politics, specifically their organization itself. I believe their argument is that because OWS has not distinguished class politics form the populist politics, it will not develop into anything that will really help the class struggle. So for that reason they want to find the people who are more militant and have more class consciousness and win them to get involved with the Sparts before the movement collapses or gets re-absorbed back into standard liberal "safe" politics. So that's why they focus on the differences IMO - they don't want people who are "going with the flow" but people who are maybe a little in advance of where things are now. If I'm mistaken about their strategy, please correct me, this is just my guess after talking to a member at an occupy event and reading one of their articles about the occupy movement.

[A Marxist Historian]

This thread should just stop now. I don't know if people on this website realize it or not, but there are hundreds to thousands of people holding open-ended populist protests in many cities in the US and throughout the world. Working class people in the US are beginning to push against their unions and initiate actions like in Madison Wisc. There are larger revolts of young people in North Africa and Europe.

The whole left has suffered and just tried to manage to survive over the last generation - there is not much the RCP or the Sparts could have done to reverse the objective factors; what they could do during this time is just try and keep their political rafts afloat during a time of a one-sided class war.

Now, though, our side is beginning to nudge back and it seems like the one-sided part of the struggle is ending - if this turns out to be the case, the class struggle will help distinguish in practice what works and what doesn't and who walks the walk and talks the talk.

As to the OP, my understanding of where the Sparts is coming from is that they are trying to win the left of a popular struggle to class politics, specifically their organization itself. I believe their argument is that because OWS has not distinguished class politics form the populist politics, it will not develop into anything that will really help the class struggle. So for that reason they want to find the people who are more militant and have more class consciousness and win them to get involved with the Sparts before the movement collapses or gets re-absorbed back into standard liberal "safe" politics. So that's why they focus on the differences IMO - they don't want people who are "going with the flow" but people who are maybe a little in advance of where things are now. If I'm mistaken about their strategy, please correct me, this is just my guess after talking to a member at an occupy event and reading one of their articles about the occupy movement.

Exactly. Couldn't have put it better myself.

In fact, the whole posting, not just the last paragraph about the Sparts.

-M.H.-