Pornography in Socialism

[tir1944]

Should Pornography be legal in socialism?
Because in most hist. soc. countries it wasn't,so that's why i'm asking...

[The Insurrection]

I think the better questions is whether socialism should exist at all.

[tir1944]

I think the better questions is whether socialism should exist at all.
I don't understand?
:confused:

[The Insurrection]

Your original question is premised on the idea that socialism should exist. I don't accept that to be true, which makes your question, as far as I'm concerned, redundant.

Centralised political authority and a planned economy are not fun and people who advocate them are dooming the working class to more inequality and exploitation and less political and economic freedom.

[tir1944]

So we should speed right into Communism or what...?


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward)

[The Insurrection]

I don't know what you mean by "speed", but if you want to create a communist society then establishing a state and centrally planning the economy seems counter-intuitive.

[Sasha]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/not-another-porn-t159255/index.html?t=159255
http://www.revleft.com/vb/pornography-driving-men-t157669/index.html?t=157669
http://www.revleft.com/vb/thoughts-porn-t153425/index.html?t=153425

[Void]

It should not be allowed, due to various reasons... I'm too tired to count and comment all of them.

[The Insurrection]

It should not be allowed, due to various reasons... I'm too tired to count and comment all of them.

Well I can see your world is going to be fun :rolleyes:

[Smyg]

If porn is all that makes *your* world fun, then I pity you.

[Void]

If porn is all that makes *your* world fun, then I pity you.

Yeah, I did not even care to reply, thanks.

[The Insurrection]

If porn is all that makes *your* world fun, then I pity you.

What are you on about? Where did I express the opinion that all I needed for my "world" to be fun was porn?

This is your logical fallacy lesson number 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[The Insurrection]

Yeah, I did not even care to reply, thanks.

Why do you oppose pornography?

[The Man]

It should not be allowed, due to various reasons... I'm too tired to count and comment all of them.

Oh give me a break.. You call yourself an "Authoritarian Socialist", then have an INGSOC symbol as your avatar (For those of you who do not know, INGSOC is the official ideology of the dystopia, Oceania, in George Orwell's 1984.)

When a cave man found out that he can carve on stone; He wrote boobs. Are you going to ban all depiction of aroused genitalia? No. Your not. It's not going to work. It should actually be quite counter-productive.

Now, I believe that within Socialism, we will see a huge drop of "Studio-type" porn since desperation for money and exploitation of the human body would be thrown out. The females that participate in Studio-Type porn, do it almost every time because of economic desperation.

I do not think the amateur type would be affected.

[Psy]

Should Pornography be legal in socialism?
Because in most hist. soc. countries it wasn't,so that's why i'm asking...
If men and women want to apply their labor to creating porn I don't see a problem, I don't see the point in society planning the production of porn as porn can easily be produced in the home and distributed easily to anyone that wants it and we don't need studios dealing in porn.

[Void]

I am for a cleaner society with principals.


Porno leads to degeneration in society. It is unnatural, violent and humiliating in any ways possible. It also leads to addiction, it is a sickness.


Humans should stray away from animal instincts as much as possible. Such insticts are the cause of joy in porno. It does not work any other than drugs.


Capitalism is abusive which makes profits from basic animal instincts of nature.


You may talk about cave men yes but humans also evolve and next generations should be different.



Also my ideas are drawn from German Philosopher Schopenhauer in this very topic who expresses that humans are slaves of nature.


With current values communism is not possible. It is only possible by a disciplined society with certain principles.


Because any time there happens a revolution, instincts of society will be abused and stability can not be achieved. Instinct and such are amongst the primary human weaknesses and failure in macro actions like revolutions and real change. Greed is also one of them. Actually they are not much.


I recommend everybody the film called "Idiocracy"

[DeBon]

Something I don't understand...

Pornography in some people's eyes is some unnatural sickness that's disgusting blah blah blah because of this and that.

But things like football, video games, racing, boxing, are somehow okay even though they detract you from reality and the real problems at hand, you don't realize how shitty the real world is when you have a comfy room with TV and an XBox. I mean seriously, sitting in front of the TV or the XBox for 4 hours is some how better then 20 minutes of watching two people make love? It's like saying you're pro-choice but anti-war because of your morals.

[Princess Luna]

Saying pornography is reactionary, is like saying films in general are reactionary. You are taking a huge genre, that contains tens of thousands of different viewpoints and perspectivies and shoehorning them all into one category that you can conveniently label as "bad".

I am for a cleaner society with principals.


Porno leads to degeneration in society. It is unnatural, violent and humiliating in any ways possible. It also leads to addiction, it is a sickness.


Humans should stray away from animal instincts as much as possible. Such insticts are the cause of joy in porno. It does not work any other than drugs.


Capitalism is abusive which makes profits from basic animal instincts of nature.


You may talk about cave men yes but humans also evolve and next generations should be different.



Also my ideas are drawn from German Philosopher Schopenhauer in this very topic who expresses that humans are slaves of nature.


With current values communism is not possible. It is only possible by a disciplined society with certain principles.


Because any time there happens a revolution, instincts of society will be abused and stability can not be achieved. Instinct and such are amongst the primary human weaknesses and failure in macro actions like revolutions and real change. Greed is also one of them. Actually they are not much.


I recommend everybody the film called "Idiocracy"
Pornography is not "unnatural", because literally everything thing that exists in the universe is natural, also going back to what I said before the fact that some films like Deep Throat or Backdoor Sluts IV degrade women and involve abusing the actresses is no more a statement against porn than Red Dawn and Birth of a Nation are statements against films in general. Pornography addiction is the same as Video Game addiction and television addiction, in fact ANY actitvity can become a addiction. Also every "human instinct" is build on a foundation of animal instincts, ever had a boyfriend or girlfriend? if yes, you gave into your "animal instincts"

[Rafiq]

Here you have it, folks, this is why no one takes us seriously.

[Agathor]

Masturbation is reactionary and bourgeois. Abolish the libido.

[#FF0000]

I am for a cleaner society with principals

This ain't the place for you then, dogg.

[NewLeft]

The problem is the amount of coersion in the industry..

[Ose]

With regard to the OP, I shall consider socialism to be synonymous with communism. My answer to this question is less suitable for those who think there can be such a thing as a socialist state.

The main problem with the porn industry as it exists now under capitalism is that it is a capitalist industry, involving all the exploitation that goes with this. The tendency of capitalism to encourage inequality and discrimination of all kinds is also the source of any degradation of women that we see in pornography. If it sells, all else is irrelevant.

The comments made by a couple of previous posters on amateur porn are relevant here: If we presuppose a communist society, if people want to film themselves having sex or whatever and share it with the world, then what's wrong with that?

Void is silly.

[Sasha]

The problem is the amount of coersion in the industry..

"Industry" being the relevant word there...

It would be so nice if one didn't need to point this out in each and every thread on the subject.

Its like debating the housing market and every thread gets immediately stuck in discussing whether "housing" is something good or not....

[Void]

Saying pornography is reactionary, is like saying films in general are reactionary. You are taking a huge genre, that contains tens of thousands of different viewpoints and perspectivies and shoehorning them all into one category that you can conveniently label as "bad".

Pornography is not "unnatural", because literally everything thing that exists in the universe is natural, also going back to what I said before the fact that some films like Deep Throat or Backdoor Sluts IV degrade women and involve abusing the actresses is no more a statement against porn than Red Dawn and Birth of a Nation are statements against films in general. Pornography addiction is the same as Video Game addiction and television addiction, in fact ANY actitvity can become a addiction. Also every "human instinct" is build on a foundation of animal instincts, ever had a boyfriend or girlfriend? if yes, you gave into your "animal instincts"

Yes exactly many of us gave into our animal instincts and this is why we know very good they lead us to failure any time.

This is also why I respect Platon's work "The State". Where the highest ruling class can not have private property. If the proles want to fuck and group sex each other let them do it and degenerate in the way they want, so they should have the sexual liberty but the ruling class not.

[runequester]

I volunteer to be in the state pornography planning department.

"We are 1400 facials behind the 5 year plan. I want you guys to be working twice as hard!"


There's no reason the voluntary creation and distribution of pornography should not exist. Without monetary coercion people can do as they like.

Time will tell if the "market" for it disappears or not.

[craigd89]

I am for a cleaner society with principals.


Porno leads to degeneration in society. It is unnatural, violent and humiliating in any ways possible. It also leads to addiction, it is a sickness.


Humans should stray away from animal instincts as much as possible. Such insticts are the cause of joy in porno. It does not work any other than drugs.


Capitalism is abusive which makes profits from basic animal instincts of nature.


You may talk about cave men yes but humans also evolve and next generations should be different.



Also my ideas are drawn from German Philosopher Schopenhauer in this very topic who expresses that humans are slaves of nature.


With current values communism is not possible. It is only possible by a disciplined society with certain principles.


Because any time there happens a revolution, instincts of society will be abused and stability can not be achieved. Instinct and such are amongst the primary human weaknesses and failure in macro actions like revolutions and real change. Greed is also one of them. Actually they are not much.


I recommend everybody the film called "Idiocracy"
Yes we should all be celibate and ignore our sexual urges. You actually sound like a religious nut.

[Tim Cornelis]

Void simply copies what INGSOC did in 1984: sexuality was to be repressed.

Pornography will be legal, what authority is going to ban it anyways? However, because socialism is a planned moneyless economy the production of porn will diminish. Luckily for porn fans, it is one of the few industries for which abundance exists.

[Sputnik_1]

personally, i think that there is nothing "evil" in pornography or drugs or such. It's the human attitude towards such things should change. Of course porno is not very helpful in terms of its cohesion with reality. It gives us wrong idea about sex, sickening "beauty" canons etc. That's probably the only thing i find wrong about pornography's content, but i think we can get rid of it as long as our expectations aren't based on colorful commercials and top models.
Abolishing pornography sounds kinda like denying our sexuality or being under a very severe censorship. It leads to some kind of sexual regression or tht i guess :/

[Princess Luna]

Yes exactly many of us gave into our animal instincts and this is why we know very good they lead us to failure any time.

This is also why I respect Platon's work "The State". Where the highest ruling class can not have private property. If the proles want to fuck and group sex each other let them do it and degenerate in the way they want, so they should have the sexual liberty but the ruling class not.
My point compeletly went over you head, trying to seperate human instincts and animal instincts is a impossible task because humans are animals and almost everything we do goes back to some evolutionary adaptation. If you are hungry than you eat to relieve the hunger, this is the most basic instinct and yet no rational person would say it is bad.

[Void]

My point compeletly went over you head, trying to seperate human instincts and animal instincts is a impossible task because humans are animals and almost everything we do goes back to some evolutionary adaptation. If you are hungry than you eat to relieve the hunger, this is the most basic instinct and yet no rational person would say it is bad.

I do not regret instincts however I favor limiting them as much as possible in our lives. A-non disciplined society can not achieve any revolution, even if it would they can not achieve stability in it for a long time. Instincts should be tamed.

We should change the direction of the natural selection by manipulating it naturally for creating new human beings which may adopt communism better. Our current evolutionary condition is completely unsuitable for that.

With us, certainly no stability is possible in a society where there is possibly always private property on production materials, war, hidden slavery or violence.

(Vegetarians for example, some of them crave for meat but they do not eat meat, they have such principal.

We can for example create a complete vegetarian society by favoring breeding between humans who have natural allergic reaction against meat.)

Same goes for sexual instincts, I do not regret we have them and they are open for abuses and they are the main reasons of our any failure.

Accepting that we have these instincts and letting anything such as porno go by while thinking they are natural due to our instincts is a very weak choice in my opinion.

Homo-Sapiens is a failure of evolution, it creates excellent macro ideas like communism thanks to intelligence but is incapable of making them real.

[ComradeGrant]

I agree with Void, boot stamping on a human face forever!
On a serious note, what people do with their bodies is not my problem. If two adults want to have sex, film it, and then distribute it, who am I to stop them?

[Sasha]

I do not regret instincts however I favor limiting them as much as possible in our lives. A-non disciplined society can not achieve any revolution, even if it would they can not achieve stability in it for a long time. Instincts should be tamed.

We should change the direction of the natural selection by manipulating it naturally for creating new human beings which may adopt communism better. Our current evolutionary condition is completely unsuitable for that.

With us, certainly no stability is possible in a society where there is possibly always private property on production materials, war, hidden slavery or violence.

(Vegetarians for example, some of them crave for meat but they do not eat meat, they have such principal.

We can for example create a complete vegetarian society by favoring breeding between humans who have natural allergic reaction against meat.)

Same goes for sexual instincts, I do not regret we have them and they are open for abuses and they are the main reasons of our any failure.

Accepting that we have these instincts and letting anything such as porno go by while thinking they are natural due to our instincts is a very weak choice in my opinion.

Homo-Sapiens is a failure of evolution, it creates excellent macro ideas like communism thanks to intelligence but is incapable of making them real.

Wow, enjoy your restriction....

[Tim Cornelis]

(Vegetarians for example, some of them crave for meat but they do not eat meat, they have such principal.

We can for example create a complete vegetarian society by favoring breeding between humans who have natural allergic reaction against meat.)

Pretty sure this is a troll.

[Ose]

If the proles want to fuck and group sex each other let them do it and degenerate in the way they want....


(Vegetarians for example, some of them crave for meat but they do not eat meat, they have such principal.

We can for example create a complete vegetarian society by favoring breeding between humans who have natural allergic reaction against meat.)

Same goes for sexual instincts...

OK, Mr. Catholic Eugenicist.

[tir1944]

Why exactly was this guy restricted?
I mean,according to which forum rule?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

What a failure of a thread. Why would a self-styled communist even need to ask the question?

It's like saying, "should sex be freely available or only available on licence from the state?"

I mean, this is really idiotic. Is the OP trolling? If not then he really is confused about what liberation, emancipation and freedom are and aren't.

Sometimes, even us Marxists need to take a step back and realise that some theoretical shit cannot be justified in praxis, and we need to get some common sense back into our perception of what is right and wrong.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I mean, to the OP:

Who would even 'ban' (hypothetically) pornography? That could only happen via dictatorship (not of the proletariat!)!

[NormalG]

Pornography, as it exists under capitalism, is NOT people simply on camera having sex. It develops a world outlook. It contributes to a fetished sexual culture, male dominated capitalistic way of looking at the world and enters our bedroom in how we should approach sex. It commidifies, degrades and is violent towards women, reinforcing the gender binary that sex happens when men get aroused, men orgasm, and women enjoy it all regardless if she orgasms or not. These images of womens bodies are not realisticand competition drives these unrealistic fantasies. Pornography does aid in these capitalist addictions, but the addiction lies primarily to sex. From birth, society demonizes men for demonstrating any sensual characteristics, forcing them to be more emotionless in order to prove their masculinity and then misguiding them into thinking that sex can fulfill the void society has ripped in them.

[Princess Luna]

I am actually surprised at the fact the majority of people in this thread are pro-porn, in threads like this in the past it always seemed like the scales were tipped slightly to the anti side in terms of number of people for or against pornography.

[Fawkes]

I think the better questions is whether socialism should exist at all.

I think the term "socialism" is being used in a broader sense here to refer to communal ownership of the means of production, not necessarily state socialism, though I do agree with your critique of the latter.



And no, genres of anything should not be banned.

[Psy]

I mean, to the OP:

Who would even 'ban' (hypothetically) pornography? That could only happen via dictatorship (not of the proletariat!)!
I better question would how do you draw the line of what is porn? Does this mean studios can't create works with nudity and sex? Is there going to be a censor board reviewing movies and TV shows and telling studios to edit out scenes because it porn?

[the Leftâ„¢]

porn is a conservative genre in the larger experimental field of voyeurism anyway

[o well this is ok I guess]

Why would we even need porn
I thought there was going to be daily orgies

[DeBon]

Why would we even need porn
I thought there was going to be daily orgies

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/003/619/Untitled-1.jpg?1288903617

[blackandyellow]

This then brings up the question of who do we delegate to the power to decide what we can and can not view. I'm not too keen on some bureaucrat deciding that for me. I guess the only people who are, are the deluded or those who imagine themselves as a bureaucrat one day

[black magick hustla]

fucking hell who is going to stop a couple taping themselves boinging each other. the decency police? wtf. the decency police will find the hilt of my aluminium bat instead

[Agent Equality]

Why exactly was this guy restricted?
I mean,according to which forum rule?

Lol and I bet you'll ask the very same question when you one day find yourself restricted after posting another one of your weekly troll/anti semite/God-of-socialism threads.

[tir1944]

Lol and I bet you'll ask the very same question when you one day find yourself restricted after posting another one of your weekly troll/anti semite/God-of-socialism threads.
Never posted anything antisemitic(otherwise i would have been banned already,because antisemites have to be banned),i don't understand the third part of your "reply" and it's pretty clear who's being the troll here.

[Agathor]

Porn is weird anyway. It doesn't do much for me. Maybe if they hired some proper actors who could do the noises properly. And got rid of facials, which just go over my head.

Anyway, communism.

[Nikolay]

The only pornography that should be illegal and banned is child pornography. What type of person would even watch that? I just get sick thinking about it.

But in terms of normal pornography, there's no problem with it.

[xub3rn00dlex]

The only pornography that should be illegal and banned is child pornography. What type of person would even watch that? I just get sick thinking about it.

But in terms of normal pornography, there's no problem with it.

While I agree with you, this might be more difficult than you think. CP is already illegal, yet there are a sites still offering it in the deepwebs. The better question would be how would we address the sort of underground trade of CP during a socialist society.

[Thirsty Crow]

I bet that global communism will witness an upsurge in amateur porn. Share your sex acts, brothers and sisters :cool:
And I've also got something for any potential decency police. It ain't candy, that's for sure.

On a more serious note, any notion of banning pornography is just idiotic. I'd hate to see a state apparatus hell bent on regulating the internet and searching for people uploading this stuff.

[Princess Luna]

The only pornography that should be illegal and banned is child pornography. What type of person would even watch that? I just get sick thinking about it.

But in terms of normal pornography, there's no problem with it.
Production and sale of child porn should remain illegal, but possession should not. As disgusting as CP is simply viewing pictures or video harms no one, and certainly doesn't warrant the insanely harsh punishments possession of it currently carries.

[Nikolay]

Production and sale of child porn should remain illegal, but possession should not. As disgusting as CP is simply viewing pictures or video harms no one, and certainly doesn't warrant the insanely harsh punishments possession of it currently carries.

The possession of CP is totally wrong and disgusting. Why would we allow a 50 year old man have possession of CP when those kids were exploited and were barely in their teens..

I respect your position, but I am just disgusted by anyone who possesses that stuff.

[xub3rn00dlex]

Production and sale of child porn should remain illegal, but possession should not. As disgusting as CP is simply viewing pictures or video harms no one, and certainly doesn't warrant the insanely harsh punishments possession of it currently carries.

Why exactly are you taking this position?

[Rafiq]

Your original question is premised on the idea that socialism should exist. I don't accept that to be true, which makes your question, as far as I'm concerned, redundant.

Centralised political authority and a planned economy are not fun and people who advocate them are dooming the working class to more inequality and exploitation and less political and economic freedom.

Oh here we go...

1. No post revolutionary situation can avoid centralized planning. Even your god makhno had his fair share of secret police.

2. You have no evidence for this claim and no example. Throw in the Soviet experience. I dare you, because I have something cooking up in response.

3. Socialism and Communism are the same thing. And transition is 100% necessary. A strong state is needed to deter and crush the enemies of the revolution and the forces of reaction. Free territory had a state, btw.

[Princess Luna]

The possession of CP is totally wrong and disgusting. Why would we allow a 50 year old man have possession of CP when those kids were exploited and were barely in their teens..

I respect your position, but I am just disgusted by anyone who possesses that stuff.


Why exactly are you taking this position?
Because I believe in order for there to be a crime, an individual(s) must be harmed

[DeBon]

Production and sale of child porn should remain illegal, but possession should not. As disgusting as CP is simply viewing pictures or video harms no one, and certainly doesn't warrant the insanely harsh punishments possession of it currently carries.

You know when you think about it, you live in a really fucked up and sick society when child pornography becomes such an issue they have to intact laws. :glare:

[Veovis]

Psh, ban nekkid ladies all you want. As long as I still get my daily ration of man-on-man buttsecks, it's all good! :lol:

[RedGrunt]

Porn = Bourgeois prostitution.

[DeBon]

Porn = Bourgeois prostitution.

Correction: Prostitution = Bourgeois porn

Porn is free, my friend.



on the edit..
this entire thread is sort of weird.. and I feel weird for partaking

[teflon_john]

Void is definitely a bad lay.

[Rooster]

I don't really get the point of this question. Are there people out there who are thinking "I would join the movement if only I knew if pornography would be legal or not"? I think people should be treating this like any other industry or consumption.

[Yazman]

I don't really get the point of this question. Are there people out there who are thinking "I would join the movement if only I knew if pornography would be legal or not"? I think people should be treating this like any other industry or consumption.

Don't be so melodramatic, it's obviously not a make-or-break question, but rather just a discussion on the issues behind and surrounding porn.

When you say "treating this like any other industry", what do you mean? Could you elaborate on how you think porn should be framed?

[The Insurrection]

Porn = Bourgeois prostitution.

That makes no sense. What is "bourgeois prostitution"?

[Yugo45]

I
Porno leads to degeneration in society. It is unnatural, violent and humiliating in any ways possible. It also leads to addiction, it is a sickness.
That's the exact same thing people say about homosexuals..

[Per Levy]

well in my opinion porn would change quite a bit in a socialist society, the porn business would be no more, but with the rise of amateur porn and the use of pornographie in art it would most defenetly be still around just different.

[Rottenfruit]

I am for a cleaner society with principals.


Porno leads to degeneration in society. It is unnatural, violent and humiliating in any ways possible. It also leads to addiction, it is a sickness.


.




You sure sound like a conservative
What kind of addiction are we talking? Does porno lead to people using smack?

[Tenka]

Socialism will probably see an explosion in the abundance of amateur porn, what with people having more time on their hands in general. The only problem with the "porn industry" is its nature as a capitalist industry.

[xub3rn00dlex]

Socialism will probably see an explosion in the abundance of amateur porn, what with people having more time on their hands in general. The only problem with the "porn industry" is its nature as a capitalist industry.

would you agree the industry is more harmful to porn actresses than actors? I remember reading somethig from a producer about how much pressure is put on the female stars in order to constanty garner attention. Once their initial fame is up, they're always being pushed to more explicit acts the longer they're in thr business.

[Fawkes]

Porn = Bourgeois prostitution.

That doesn't make any sense. Do you mean to suggest porn actors are bourgeois? The vast majority of porn actors, like traditional actors, are working-class.


Also, regarding child pornography, the possession of it encourages and facilitates its production and distribution.

[Azraella]

My fun sexytimes in private and alone shouldn't be outlawed. >.>

[Fawkes]

My fun sexytimes in private and alone shouldn't be outlawed. >.>

Seriously. Do people want us to break down someone's front door as soon as they press record on their camera or something?

[xub3rn00dlex]

Seriously. Do people want us to break down someone's front door as soon as they press record on their camera or something?

I guess if people are into that kinky Police officer stuff, sure.

[W1N5T0N]

The Party creates meaningless songs, novels, even pornography for the proles (all written by machines, except pornography, which is compiled by members of the Outer Party and accessible only to party members working in Pornosec)

from wikipedia

[W1N5T0N]

I guess if people are into that kinky Police officer stuff, sure.

fuck the police ;)

[EvilRedGuy]

Whats wrong with child pornography? I'm talking about the fictional ones not the ones were REAL kids gets taped and sold for being raped and shit like that. Thats exploited porn.

Infact i would argue that child pronography would encourage pedophiles to masturbate to their fictional fantasies instead of actual performing real ones, e.i raping a child, etc.

You can't ban anything, thats the workers job. 1-person state-idiots. :rolleyes: And they'll ban whatever that is useful to ban, that is exploitive, not more or less.

[RED DAVE]

I am for a cleaner society with principals.If you mean "principles," then you need to learn to spell. And, for your information, the "dirt" in porno is your notion, not everyone else's.


Porno leads to degeneration in society.No evidence for that whatsoever.


It is unnaturalSo are clothes. They don't exist in nature either.


violentIf you watch violent porno.


and humiliating in any ways possible.If you watch humiliating porno.


It also leads to addictionIf you're a sex addict.


it is a sickness.If you're already sick.


Humans should stray away from animal instincts as much as possible.Why? We are animals you know. And, by the way, animals do not use porno. It is a peculiarly human activity.


Such insticts are the cause of joy in porno.Right. So what's the problem?


It does not work any other than drugs.I assume you're calling porno the same as drugs. What's wrong with drugs when used in moderation.


Capitalism is abusiveNo! Really?


which makes profits from basic animal instincts of nature.End capitalism; stop eating!


You may talk about cave men yes but humans also evolve and next generations should be different.We are. They carved breasts in stone; we use digital cameras.


Also my ideas are drawn from German Philosopher Schopenhauer in this very topic who expresses that humans are slaves of nature.Schopenhauer was a very pessimistic dude. Are you sure you want to follow him down the path of his own misery?


With current values communism is not possible.With current exploitative relations of labor communism is not possible.


It is only possible by a disciplined society with certain principles.No, it's only possible in a free society where people get to express themselves without being bothered by nasty left-wing puritans.


Because any time there happens a revolution, instincts of society will be abused and stability can not be achieved.Yeah. We really have to discipline that working class after the revolution (and in the party). Their instincts are going to make them lower the hours of work, have lots of sex, eat too much, get drunk, take drugs. AND WE CAN'T HAVE ALL THAT DIRTY STUFF AFTER OUR NICE, CLEAN REVOLUTION!]


Instinct and such are amongst the primary human weaknesses and failure in macro actions like revolutions and real change.Yeah. We need a revolution of robots. They ain't got no instincts.


Greed is also one of them.No, greed is not an instinct. It is a socially conditioned response to scarcity and fear.


Actually they are not much.I strongly suggest that if you don't enjoy your instincts that you retire to a cave somewhere, live naked, eat roots and spring water. Call us in the spring.


I recommend everybody the film called "Idiocracy"I recommend everybody see one of the films by the well-known socialist actress and director, Nina Hartley.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Hartley

RED DAVE

[28350]

Yes, there would be pornography.
Furthermore, it wouldn't be restricted to a couple with a video camera.
I imagine many people working together to explore and document erotic aesthetics.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Porn is rad. Fuck ya'll.

[Yuppie Grinder]

those who claim that pornography is not natural are silly geese who don't know shit
sexuality has been a part of art since human's have been doodling on cave walls
human sexuality is a beautiful thing to be celebrated
sexual guilt is a product of patriachial, predatory, class society

[kurr]

I recommend everybody see one of the films by the well-known socialist actress and director, Nina Hartley.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Hartley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Hartley)


It's so funny when people dont bother to read the links they post.

"Politically, Hartley currently considers herself a liberal and an outspoken sex-positive feminist,[9] although for a time she was a socialist activist[10]."
And by the looks of this page, she's nothing more than your average bourgy housewife who dabbles in new age religion, identity politics, and just happens to fuck on camera for a living. Dope.
"Was a socialist activist" means fuck all. Bernie Sanders could be considered a "Socialist activist".
Yes, Nina Hartley....clearly a voice in which represents the radical Left. Hahahah.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Should Pornography be legal in socialism?
Under socialism, pornography as an industry and sex as a commodity will cease to exist. To think that will mean the end of creating and enjoying visual representations of human sexuality between consenting people is absurd, and it would be folly for a socialist society to repress that.

[Princess Luna]

[/URL]


It's so funny when people dont bother to read the links they post.

And by the looks of this page, she's nothing more than your average bourgy housewife who dabbles in new age religion, identity politics, and just happens to fuck on camera for a living. Dope.
"Was a socialist activist" means fuck all. Bernie Sanders could be considered a "Socialist activist".
Yes, Nina Hartley....clearly a voice in which represents the radical Left. Hahahah.
I love how since she doesn't march around with a picture of Mao, you automatically write her off as a rich house-wife. Because clearly there are only 2 kinds of women in the world, sexy female guerrillas and dumb house-wives waiting to be liberated so they can become sexy female guerrillas.

[MustCrushCapitalism]

So long as there are good working conditions... then again that's a pretty damn good job anyways lol.

Well it depends I suppose. Being forced into doing pornography is a terrible crime but I'd imagine that if you're doing it by choice it'd be wonderful.

[cheguvera]

In anarchism,yes it is.so called historical socialism did not value human freedom. That is why they did not last long.Most of the dictators who advocated this great concept fucked it. best example is china.

[kurr]

I love how since she doesn't march around with a picture of Mao, you automatically write her off as a rich house-wife. Because clearly there are only 2 kinds of women in the world, sexy female guerrillas and dumb house-wives waiting to be liberated so they can become sexy female guerrillas.

Right, just like how there are 2 types of men in the world - bronies and everyone else...

[Princess Luna]

Right, just like how there are 2 types of men in the world - bronies and everyone else...
that makes no sense, you said she wasn't a leftist so she must be ,and I quote "your average bourgy housewife"despite there being NO EVIDENCE in the article for her being even a housewife, much less a rich one. The fact I am a Brony has nothing to do with this, you are the one dropping unfounded accusations against her, merely because you dislike her politics.

[tfb]

Under the New Erotic Policy, there would be plenty of videos of people "proddin' a log".

[VILemon]

We can for example create a complete vegetarian society by favoring breeding between humans who have natural allergic reaction against meat.)


Countdown to Void getting themself banned in 3...2...

[Klaatu]

Should Pornography be legal in socialism?


Who cares? Porn is just a recorded version of what almost everyone does.

Now let's get on to something really important; should picking one's nose in public be illegal? :rolleyes:

[∞]

Wanking is no ones business. Anyone on this site who seriously wants to ban people wanking to nude people fucking deserves a ban #ASAP.

[ComradeGrant]

Anyone who wants to ban wanking needs to wank more often I think. This thread is hilarious.

[Red Planet]

Sex is oppressive. It carries with it gender struggles and is rife with domination. Pornography usually depicts male dominance over a female, and when it is consumed by a heterosexual (particularly white) male audience, it IS in my opinion reactionary.

However, it is SEXIST to think that porn is only for males, which is what most anti-porn arguments are all about. So, I think porn is acceptable as long as it is non reactionary.

[IndependentCitizen]

Sex is oppressive. It carries with it gender struggles and is rife with domination. Pornography usually depicts male dominance over a female, and when it is consumed by a heterosexual (particularly white) male audience, it IS in my opinion reactionary.

However, it is SEXIST to think that porn is only for males, which is what most anti-porn arguments are all about. So, I think porn is acceptable as long as it is non reactionary.

Sex is oppressive? Don't you mean pornography?

And yes, thinking porn is only for males is sexist. My girlfriend is always downloading stuff in the internet, she's a bit..."curious" I think the word is, I think she may be addicted. But whatever makes her happy...

[RedRose]

I don't see why you'd even bother banning pornography under socialism. If you're going with the ML progression, once the state has withered it's not like there'll be an efficient way to ban it anyway under communism, apart from ISP blocking or something ridiculous and controlling. Why bother banning it for the intermediatary stage? You may as well give everyone as much freedom as possible. Whether you watch it or not is a personal choice, but no-one's MAKING you watch it just because it's there. I can't stand horror films, do I want to ban Saw? No, because I'm not a spoil sport.

[Red Planet]

Sex is oppressive? Don't you mean pornography?

And yes, thinking porn is only for males is sexist. My girlfriend is always downloading stuff in the internet, she's a bit..."curious" I think the word is, I think she may be addicted. But whatever makes her happy...

Pornography is sex, but no, I wouldn't say that only porn is oppressive. Sex as a whole has elements of sexism as a result of historical gender domination. Penis in vagina, anyone?

Also, i'm glad you're girlfriend is comfortable with her sexuality, but it is kinda sexist on your part to make it out to be some "addiction."

[Red Planet]

I don't see why you'd even bother banning pornography under socialism. If you're going with the ML progression, once the state has withered it's not like there'll be an efficient way to ban it anyway under communism, apart from ISP blocking or something ridiculous and controlling. Why bother banning it for the intermediatary stage? You may as well give everyone as much freedom as possible. Whether you watch it or not is a personal choice, but no-one's MAKING you watch it just because it's there. I can't stand horror films, do I want to ban Saw? No, because I'm not a spoil sport.

So, you believe that objectificaiton and other negative side affects like gender stereotyping should be encouraged? :rolleyes:

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Penis in vagina, anyone?
Well, vagina in penis would just be ridiculous.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

So, you believe that objectificaiton and other negative side affects like gender stereotyping should be encouraged? :rolleyes:
Doesn't that have more to do with porn being an industry in a society where misogyny and objectification is common than with visual representations of human sexual activity itself?

[Charlie Watt]

The straight porn industry has a fairly misogynistic streak to it from what I've seen. The women are talked too like they're garbage and generally used as spunk receptacles. Bare in mind though, my viewing of straight porn has been extremely limited as it's not really my thing. I'm sure there are elements of the industry that treat the performers well (male and female.)

As far as gay porn goes, there's no misogyny, obviously, but there's definitely an underlying exploitative element. A lot of the younger guys involved are the sort of empty-headed teenagers you find floating around the gay scene, there's a lot of coercion to do condom-free shoots, and there's just something that strikes me as incredibly sleazy about it.

I'm with most of the pro-porn posters. In any future communist society, amateur would be the way to go. Consenting adults, making videos for their fellow pervs, for fun rather than profit. Think it's already taking a shift that way anyway, with the popularity of sites like Cam4.

[Red Planet]

Doesn't that have more to do with porn being an industry in a society where misogyny and objectification is common than with visual representations of human sexual activity itself?

Not really. I fail to see why the moed of production is an important aspect here..

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Not really. I fail to see why the moed of production is an important aspect here..
So the mere fact of a camera recording a sexual encounter promotes misogyny and objectification?

Even in a future society where presumably sex is no longer a commodity and sexism has been relegated to the dustbin, visual representations of human sexual activity would promote misogyny and objectification?

Sounds more like the sex negative variants of feminism than a revolutionary perspective.

[Red Planet]

So the mere fact of a camera recording a sexual encounter promotes misogyny and objectification?

Even in a future society where presumably sex is no longer a commodity and sexism has been relegated to the dustbin, visual representations of human sexual activity would promote misogyny and objectification?

Sounds more like the sex negative variants of feminism than a revolutionary perspective.

Public exhibitions of sexual activity would typically promote misogyny and objectification, yes. I don't know what kind of "visual representations" you have in mind, but I really have no understanding why they should be embraced by society apart from perhaps thoroughly justified scienctific research and art—in either case a far cry from porn "proper."

"Sex negative feminism." How did I know it was going to lead to that? Way to turn it around by implicitly demeaning aspects of feminism.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Public exhibitions of sexual activity would typically promote misogyny and objectification, yes.
Even in a non-misogynistic society where sex is no longer a commodity? I'm afraid I don't grasp how people taking pleasure from watching other people engaged in sex is inherently objectifying or misogynistic.


I really have no understanding why they should be embraced by society apart from perhaps thoroughly justified scienctific research and art—in either case a far cry from porn "proper."
Perhaps they just want to look at something that turns them on. Oh, no, someone call the Morality Police!


"Sex negative feminism." How did I know it was going to lead to that? Way to turn it around by implicitly demeaning aspects of feminism.
I'm not turning anything around. There has been a long existing divide between feminists who are anti-porn and those who are sex positive. The former tend to argue that porn is inherently bad under all possible circumstances, which is pure idealism and moralism, and seems to be an argument you accept. As a revolutionary communist and a sex positive feminist, it's an argument I reject.

[Red Planet]

Even in a non-misogynistic society where sex is no longer a commodity? I'm afraid I don't grasp how people taking pleasure from watching other people engaged in sex is inherently objectifying or misogynistic.

Because people, especially women, are turned into objects of sexual pleasure, and nothing more.



Perhaps they just want to look at something that turns them on. Oh, no, someone call the Morality Police!

Right, just like child pornography simply "turns on" pedophiles. No problem with using pleasure as a justification. Besides, I don't really have a problem with porn, per se, but mostly heterosexual white porn, which places the white male in a dominant position and makes the white female subservient irrespective of society's mode of production.


I'm not turning anything around. There has been a long existing divide between feminists who are anti-porn and those who are sex positive. The former tend to argue that porn is inherently bad under all possible circumstances, which is pure idealism and moralism, and seems to be an argument you accept. As a revolutionary communist and a sex positive feminist, it's an argument I reject.

i know what sex-positive/negative feminism is. my claim is that porn, particualrly in its predominant, heterosexual form is demeaning to all involved except for the white male exploiter class.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Because people, especially women, are turned into objects of sexual pleasure, and nothing more.
So what you actually object to is that people are sexually aroused by watching other people engage in sex.


Besides, I don't really have a problem with porn, per se
Every argument you've made so far is anti-porn under all circumstances, and you have been unwilling to even admit that porn in a society where it's not an industry and where sex is no longer a commodity would be very different than the porn you're talking about.


but mostly heterosexual white porn, which places the white male in a dominant position and makes the white female subservient irrespective of society's mode of production.
So you've seen porn produced in a socialist society that has done away with porn as an industry and sex as a commodity?


my claim is that porn, particualrly in its predominant, heterosexual form is demeaning to all involved except for the white male exploiter class.
And that has nothing to do with it being an industry that can profit by catering to misogynistic men? It's inherent to porn itself? That's where you lose me with your brand of idealist, moralist anti-sex feminism.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Porn That Women Like: Why Does It Make Men So Uncomfortable? (http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2011/11/17/porn_that_women_like_why_does_it_make_men_so_uncom fortable_.html)

[Charlie Watt]

Great article man. I'm glad that there's a developing market of female orientated straight porn, as I don't imagine the normal straight stuff could be too appealing. I know plenty of straight women that watch gay porn, but I'd always imagined that would be a wee bit unsatisfying, in as much as straight men watching "lesbian" porn can fall back on the hypothetical thought of the porn star wanting to fuck them (actual gay for pay being much less prevalent in the gay porn industry than the straight, I think.)

Also, Mr Deen would get flung about like a dog-toy :D

[Thirsty Crow]

The fundamental problem here is Red Planet's continuous insistence on disregarding the emphasized aspect of a possible development of porn in a communist world - amateurs producing for pleasure, both their and spectators', which presuposses that the activity itself no longer represents alienated labour - the basis, and a factor of reinforcement of forms of oppression like sexism and mysoginy in the world we occupy at the moment.

Considering this simple fact, I fail to see how crude anti-porn sentiment amounts to anything but bankrupt, empty moralism of the worst kind.