Text: Bin Laden's statement

[tradeunionsupporter]

Text: Bin Laden's statement

These events have divided the whole world into two sides. The side of believers and the side of infidels, may God keep you away from them. Every Muslim has to rush to make his religion victorious. The winds of faith have come. The winds of change have come to eradicate oppression from the island of Muhammad, peace be upon him.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/07/afghanistan.terrorism15

I am posting this text because in my view religion divides people and the Islamists want to divide people and the world into two camps Muslims vs Infidels/Non Muslims/Unbelievers would anyone agree ? It just seems that a lot of wars are over religion and religion is stopping human unity. Islamists are very tribal in their nature they hate Jews Christians Sikhs Hindus Buddhists Atheists and all other Non Muslims. Islamists believe that the lives/life of Non Muslims have no value.

Sam Harris on Islam.

Sam Harris new way forward. Join in common cause all infadel world. Freethinker, Christian, Jews, Buddhists, Hindu, left and right of politics. We of the centre and left must understand the danger of Islam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjfCWy6dmco

Muslim Imam: its ok to kill non-muslims!

Muslim Imam: its ok to kill non muslims!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64r-iWoTsX8

[ComradeMan]

Islam forbids the killing of the innocent.

[Nox]

Islam forbids the killing of the innocent.

Which is just one of the thousands of contradictions in the Abrahamic religions.

[ComradeMan]

Which is just one of the thousands of contradictions in the Abrahamic religions.

Is humanity not full of contradictions?

mrcoYTGCXvc

[ScarletSojourner]

Islam forbids the killing of the innocent.

So you dont consider non-Muslims innocent? The Quran unlike the Old Testament when it commands violence is very open ended and Muslims take a much more literal take on their Holy Book than the Jews.

[Leftsolidarity]

Islam is no worse than other religions I would say. Oppose them all but tolerate other peoples' religious views if it is not hurting anyone. I don't care if someone is a muslim; I care if they want to be militant and enforce their beliefs on others. I don't care if someone is a christian; I care if they want to be militant and enforce their beliefs on others. I don't care if someone is an atheist; I care if they want to be militant and enforce their beliefs on others. It goes all ways. Tolerance of religious views but strong against those willing to impose those views on others.

A thing to note though is that much of this Islamophobia is being used as a tool for imperialism which is just to fight against.

[ScarletSojourner]

A thing to note though is that much of this Islamophobia is being used as a tool for imperialism which is just to fight against.

You could say that. You could also say that the Islamophilia and "anti-Imperialism" of a lot of the "Left" is a tool used to hide their genocidal hatred of the jewish people.

[Leftsolidarity]

You could say that. You could also say that the Islamophilia and "anti-Imperialism" of a lot of the "Left" is a tool used to hide their genocidal hatred of the jewish people.

.................what?.......................

[ScarletSojourner]

.................what?.......................

You deny that some on the left support fascist groups like Hamas in the name of anti-Imperialism?

[Leftsolidarity]

You deny that some on the left support fascist groups like Hamas in the name of anti-Imperialism?

1) Hamas is not fascist
2) Some might
3) I have a feeling you are a Zionist and will probably shortly be restricted or banned.

[ScarletSojourner]

3) I have a feeling you are a Zionist and will probably shortly be restricted or banned.

So people are banned or restricted here for defending the jewish people's right to survive until Communism?

I want to see all states abolished, but Israel last.

[ComradeMan]

So you dont consider non-Muslims innocent? The Quran unlike the Old Testament when it commands violence is very open ended and Muslims take a much more literal take on their Holy Book than the Jews.

Of course, the whole problem here is with who considers whom innocent. :crying:
However plenty of Muslims I know consider any kind of extra-judicial killing to be haraam: Qu'ran 5:32; Qu'ran 6:151; Qu'ran 17:33. I don't think it's fair to say that Islam per se justifies killing.

[ScarletSojourner]

1) Hamas is not fascist
2) Some might
3) I have a feeling you are a Zionist and will probably shortly be restricted or banned.

You have reported me as a fascist I see! :crying:

Even though Israel is the only democratic and the most left wing and progressive society in the region; lesson for you, fascists always hate jews and support ultra-nationalist mythoses, so maybe you are the real fascist "left solidarity"? Would you like to drown all the jews in the sea?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

You deny that some on the left support fascist groups like Hamas in the name of anti-Imperialism?

If anything is "fascist" in that context (i.e. the context of 'things that are repressive and I want a good word for them that is forceful',) it's the Israeli state.


Even though Israel is the only democratic and the most left wing and progressive society in the region; lesson for you, fascists always hate jews and support ultra-nationalist mythoses, so maybe you are the real fascist "left solidarity"?

Fucks' sake. The Israeli state loves ultra-nationalist mythoses (just look at how the government funds fraudulent historical investigations to reinforce the idea of a historical right to the lands, etc), and if Israeli government is left-wing-- then that sure is a fucked up left.

[ComradeMan]

Here we go again..... this thread is not about Israel or any form of zionism... let's keep it on topic.

[ScarletSojourner]

If anything is "fascist" in that context (i.e. the context of 'things that are repressive and I want a good word for them that is forceful',) it's the Israeli state.

That is a very crude definition of fascist, you could call Lenin a fascist than; the Israeli state is democratic and it is surrounded by actual fascists who want to destroy not just the state but the whole people too. Are you saying that the jewish people should go peacefully into a genocide again?

[Leftsolidarity]

You have reported me as a fascist I see! :crying:

Even though Israel is the only democratic and the most left wing and progressive society in the region; lesson for you, fascists always hate jews and support ultra-nationalist mythoses, so maybe you are the real fascist "left solidarity"? Would you like to drown all the jews in the sea?

Sorry, I'm not discussing with you anymore. Your Zionist nonsense is just that --nonsense. You are trying to provoke me and I just don't care enough about your foolishness to bite.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

That is a very crude definition of fascist, you could call Lenin a fascist than; the Israeli state is democratic and it is surrounded by actual fascists who want to destroy not just the state but the whole people too. Are you saying that the jewish people should go peacefully into a genocide again?

That is indeed a crude definition of fascism, which was exactly my point - if the hostile countries around Israel are fascists, then so is Israel. The reality is that neither are fascist, because fascist is a very specific political ideology. With the absurdity of your last sentence it is however clear that you are probably a troll-- but ponder then, what exactly is so democratic and good about excluding the Arabic population of Israel? Oh wait, they're all a single homogeneous anti-semitic mess to you, right?

[ComradeMan]

The Israeli state loves ultra-nationalist mythoses (just look at how the government funds fraudulent historical investigations to reinforce the idea of a historical right to the lands, etc)---

Source?

Sorry but Palestinian nationalism also has its mythology....

[ScarletSojourner]

That is indeed a crude definition of fascism, which was exactly my point - if the hostile countries around Israel are fascists, then so is Israel. The reality is that neither are fascist, because fascist is a very specific political ideology. With the absurdity of your last sentence it is however clear that you are probably a troll-- but ponder then, what exactly is so democratic and good about excluding the Arabic population of Israel? Oh wait, they're all a single homogeneous anti-semitic mess to you, right?

How is the last sentence absurdity? What did the Iranian president say? What does the Hamas charter say? Why are the Protocols of Tsarist forgery so popular through out the middle east?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

How is the last sentence absurdity? What did the Iranian president say? What does the Hamas charter say? Why are the Protocols of Tsarist forgery so popular through out the middle east?

Apart from the fact that the whole mess around what Ahmadinejad said is a mess of mistranslations and uncertain meanings, including interpretations suggesting it was something along the lines of Israel being a criminal state and thus bound for a self-made collapse, what he says is hardly relevant. Even if he had said it, he's just decoration, rambling populist nonsense and trying to essentially troll the political arena with his statements.

And there is certainly anti-semitism, an anti-semitism that is strengthened by the racist and nationalist government of Israel, unfortunately. But to look at it in a way detached of materialist analysis is nonsense, too. It didn't come out of nowhere; the antagonisms go back a long time. There's a lot more to it than some holy Israel incapable of faults versus the evil Muslims.

[ScarletSojourner]

.

And there is certainly anti-semitism, an anti-semitism that is strengthened by the racist and nationalist government of Israel, unfortunately. But to look at it in a way detached of materialist analysis is nonsense, too. It didn't come out of nowhere; the antagonisms go back a long time. There's a lot more to it than some holy Israel incapable of faults versus the evil Muslims.

Yes jews are always to blame for anti-semitism (in minds of anti-semites) . :crying:

[Per Levy]

@ScarletSojourner: gosh your so obviously a troll its actually sad but oh well have your fun, you wont have it for to long.

[Susurrus]

I want to see all states abolished, but Israel last.



oooooooooohhhhhh it's an anti-german.

[ZeroNowhere]

@ScarletSojourner: gosh your so obviously a troll
Not really, they sound like a typical Revleft Discrimination board poster.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

So you dont consider non-Muslims innocent? The Quran unlike the Old Testament when it commands violence is very open ended and Muslims take a much more literal take on their Holy Book than the Jews.

Actually, it's not open ended at all and if you know anything about al-Qur'an and are a serious student of it then you should know the correct meaning of whichever surah or ayat you're quoting. If you want to understand the comments of Usama and their real meaning then you need to (this will sound crazy) take out the religious grandstanding bullshitery and Salafi nonsense and see what he's actually saying.

If you have read any of his writings or written statements it would be clear his main gripe is against the slaughtering of the ummah in places like Palestine and Iraq and elsewhere in the region, against imperialism and foreign intervention, against oppression and so forth, the religious crap thrown in is really just the icing on the cake and grandstanding bullshit. Al-Qur'an was written within the context of Muhammad (pbuh) and the early ummah being oppressed by the Meccan ruling class and people should make a note of this. Usama and pals may use religious language and maybe twist some ayats but this is not the true meaning of al-Qur'an.

I also would like to know why people here take particular disdain for Islam and Muslims.

[eric922]

You have reported me as a fascist I see! :crying:

Even though Israel is the only democratic and the most left wing and progressive society in the region; lesson for you, fascists always hate jews and support ultra-nationalist mythoses, so maybe you are the real fascist "left solidarity"? Would you like to drown all the jews in the sea?
Israel is hardly a democratic or left wing state. It is full of theocratic elements. Jewish citizens are given priority and benefits over non-Jews, the courts won't even marry Jew to a gentile, there are various far-right parties which hold seats in the legislate in Israel. I have nothing against the Jewish people, but the state of Israel I strongly oppose. The people of Palestine have just as much a right to live as the people of Israel. I firmly oppose Zionism and all forms of nationalism.

[eric922]

Actually, it's not open ended at all and if you know anything about al-Qur'an and are a serious student of it then you should know the correct meaning of whichever surah or ayat you're quoting. If you want to understand the comments of Usama and their real meaning then you need to (this will sound crazy) take out the religious grandstanding bullshitery and Salafi nonsense and see what he's actually saying.

If you have read any of his writings or written statements it would be clear his main gripe is against the slaughtering of the ummah in places like Palestine and Iraq and elsewhere in the region, against imperialism and foreign intervention, against oppression and so forth, the religious crap thrown in is really just the icing on the cake and grandstanding bullshit. Al-Qur'an was written within the context of Muhammad (pbuh) and the early ummah being oppressed by the Meccan ruling class and people should make a note of this. Usama and pals may use religious language and maybe twist some ayats but this is not the true meaning of al-Qur'an.

I also would like to know why people here take particular disdain for Islam and Muslims.
I think it's just the nature of our times, Islam is misunderstood a lot in the West. When I was younger, like 12 or 13, I hated Islam and pretty much thought Muslims were evil, but I grew up and started reading some books on Islam and read the Quran and it changed my view. I don't believe in Islam, but at its core it is no worse than Christianity. I'm actually currently reading Reza Aslan's "No god, but God" and he makes the same points as you about the context of some of the more violent verses of the Quran being revealed in a time of war.

[ComradeMan]

I also would like to know why people here take particular disdain for Islam and Muslims.

Because they don't know what they are talking about? ;)

Because everything is always broken down into a binary good guys versus bad guys dichotomy?

Because "Islam" is seen as one monolithic homogeneity in the West?

Because "Islamists" give Islam a bad name?
....
All-h = Al-Salam.?