November 17th day of action.

[Broletariat]

Anyone got any more information about this?

I know my university group and such is organising like HELL to get a big group going for this.

[RedTrackWorker]

Supposedly they want to take over bridges in various cities. As best I can tell, it's an idea the union leaders are using to get some PR out of OWS but to avoid actually mobilizing and organizing for a decisive escalation in working-class action.

[RED DAVE]

Here is the exact text of an OWS leaflet describing the three actions planned by OWS for November 17.


MASS NON-VIOLENT
DIRECT ACTION
NOVEMBER 17TH

Shut Down Wall Street, 7:00 am: Resist Austerity!

Enough of this economy that divides us – it's time for an economy that works for all. We will gather at 7:00 am, before the right of the Trading Floor Bell, to confront Wall Street with the stories of people on the frontlines of economic injustice. There, before the Stock Exchange, we will exchange stories, rather than stocks.

All Five Boroughs, 2:30 pm: Reclaim Our Democracy!

Throughout the boroughs, we will gather a 9 central subway hubs, to listen to a singular story fro one of hour hardest-hit most inspirtional neighbors.

Bronx: Fordham Rd, an 3rd Av./1348th St.
Brooklyn: Broadway Junction, and Borough Hall
Queens: Jackson heights/Roosevelt Ave., and Jamaica Parsons Archer
Manhattan: 125th St. A/B/C/D, and Washington Square
Staten Island: St. George/Staten Island Ferry

Then we will take our own stories to the trains, using the "People's Mic". We will rise up from the underground to join thousands gather in the light of day, at Foley Square, just across from City Hall.

Foley Square, 4:00 pm : Rebuild Our Economy!

Across the country, our infrastructure is fall apart; our birdges, our roads, or public transit systems are in a state of disrepaair. Enough! It's time to reviatlize our economy with the creation of local jobs which serve the country as a whole! At 4:00 pm we celebrate with tens of thousands of people as we gather at Foley Square, march to our bridges and demand that we get back to wor. The celebration will culminate in a festival of light as we mark the two-month anniversary of the occupy movement!

Take a sick day, come out from the darkness surrounding Wall Street, the dims tunnels of the underground, to the light of day.

www.OccupyWallSt.org (http://www.OccupyWallSt.org)

Resist austerity. Rebuild the economy Reclaim our democracy.RED DAVE

[Ele'ill]

I don't understand the direct action part of this- what exactly is going to happen?

[RED DAVE]

I don't understand the direct action part of this- what exactly is going to happen?Not clear yet.

The first part may involve an actual attempt to block entrance to the stock exchange, but that's not clear. If it does, this will involve a huge confrontation with the police.

The second part seems to involve speading the word outside the site.

I believe that the third part, which I think is the most important in the long run, has already obtained official cooperation with some union.

Doubtless, more will be revealed. It would be cool if comrades could do some research and come up with some answers.

RED DAVE

[aty]

If they plan on blocking the entrance to the exchange itself then the police are undoubtedly going to crack down...so I doubt the first part of this is going to last very long if that is their intention.

and the end, they are having a festival of light for themselves? That seems rather pretentious to me, especially considering from what I have heard from comrades in NYC the OWS movement has degraded to an orgy of vagrancy and rape, supposedly averaging a rape a night (of men and women).

I personally don't see the OWS movement making much progress at all, aside from a certain level of support from some unions, which I doubt will come with much action.
How the fuck can you be so negative? 3 months ago I would have thought this was impossible in the US to create a movement like this. And many of you americans dont even get excited? What the fuck? You have not had something like this since the 60s.

Get a fucking grip. Organize.

[mrmikhail]

How the fuck can you be so negative? 3 months ago I would have thought this was impossible in the US to create a movement like this. And many of you americans dont even get excited? What the fuck? You have not had something like this since the 60s.

Get a fucking grip. Organize.

I am not an American, I am just in the US. OWS is not heavily organised and not really getting anywhere. Real organisation comes from the workers within the unions and has stand out strong leadership.....things it seems the OWS is quite lacking.

[aty]

I am not an American, I am just in the US. OWS is not heavily organised and not really getting anywhere. Real organisation comes from the workers within the unions and has stand out strong leadership.....things it seems the OWS is quite lacking.
So what? Even a reformist movement, even a movement that can change the topics of debate is a huge thing in USA.

Nobody expects this to be "the revolution".

[Blackscare]

Does OWS have proof-readers at all?

[mrmikhail]

Does OWS have proof-readers at all?

I was wondering the same thing :D

On the note of aty's post:

The problem being is OWS is not getting any positive press and doesn't have clear goals, they really need to re-organise and adopt a real plan instead of just impeding traffic constantly in a futile effort to stop corporatism and austerity....

[aty]

On the note of aty's post:

The problem being is OWS is not getting any positive press and doesn't have clear goals, they really need to re-organise and adopt a real plan instead of just impeding traffic constantly in a futile effort to stop corporatism and austerity....
OWS is not a movement controlled by anyone. It is the ideologies and ideas that runs through the movement that will shape it.

OWS is a situationist idea created by Adbusters....you seem to think it has some sort of leadership and some sort of plan.

And who cares about good press in buorgeois media? Seriously? This is the biggest thing in the US class struggle since the 60s. Sad but true.

And it is not just about the movement as such it is about what type of ideas that are formed out of the movement. People start to think in new ways and get acces to ideas that they have never heard before.

What do you think will happen with the movement, a socialist revolution? Get real.

[mrmikhail]

This is the issue, the OWS is not controlled by anyone, thus it is splintered into every mix of political ideal there is to offer in America.

I never said it had a plan, or organised leadership, I said just the opposite, and that it *needed* such leadership.

And who cares about the mainstream media? most of America sadly enough, and they are being given the negative light, so if the place most americans get their information from gives a negative light....

Never said a socialist, nor any revolution would come of this, I honestly predict that the outcome will be status quo, nothing changing, same people in power.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

If they plan on blocking the entrance to the exchange itself then the police are undoubtedly going to crack down...so I doubt the first part of this is going to last very long if that is their intention.

and the end, they are having a festival of light for themselves? That seems rather pretentious to me, especially considering from what I have heard from comrades in NYC the OWS movement has degraded to an orgy of vagrancy and rape, supposedly averaging a rape a night (of men and women).

I personally don't see the OWS movement making much progress at all, aside from a certain level of support from some unions, which I doubt will come with much action.

Its late and I can't write a substantial post right now. As far as your second assertion goes, the Oakland general strike was certainly progress. The next step should be something along the lines of Occupy Foreclosure.

The first assertion, where or whom did you hear this from? this is a pretty serious allegation. If it is true there should be some soul searching and discussion of a "people's militia" to prevent this. I have heard rumours of incidents , this should be taken very seriously but can happen in a relatively unstructured liberated environment. I would be very surprised if assaults took place on that scale you mention.

Also I may have missed something but I do not remember anything about a "festival of light". I originally dismissed the OWS myself as a sort of NY version of Burning Man or a Rainbow Gathering which wouldn't last long. I was proved wrong, the Occupy movement has already changed US politics far more than the media election circus ever could. As far as a festival of light goes, there is one coming up a bit later,December 20-28.


Two words : Transistional Program

[mrmikhail]

Its late and I can't write a substantial post right now. As far as your second assertion goes, the Oakland general strike was certainly progress. The next step should be something along the lines of Occupy Foreclosure.

The first assertion, where or whom did you hear this from? this is a pretty serious allegation. If it is true there should be some soul searching and discussion of a "people's militia" to prevent this. I have heard rumours of incidents , this should be taken very seriously but can happen in a relatively unstructured liberated environment. I would be very surprised if assaults took place on that scale you mention.

Also I may have missed something but I do not remember anything about a "festival of light". I originally dismissed the OWS myself as a sort of NY version of Burning Man or a Rainbow Gathering which wouldn't last long. I was proved wrong, the Occupy movement has already changed US politics far more than the media election circus ever could. As far as a festival of light goes, there is one coming up a bit later,December 20-28.


Two words : Transistional Program

I will give you that the Oakland strike has been very productive, but I was speaking on OWS itself in NYC. Oakland has also had quite a bit more police violence associated with it, which has motivated the people against the government even more.

I heard it from a comrade of mine who's father is an NYPD police detective, tells him of quite a bit of the goings on. A people's militia would be great, however there are so many different political ideologies at OWS that I doubt it would be to any effect, and may give an easy way for the police to place agent provocateurs and cause in fighting within the movement.


The festival of light was at the very end of the info sheet from OWS, they mentioned holding one to celebrate the two month anniversary of the beginning of OWS after all the speeches and such


Also many of the other Occupy movements, such as in the midwest, are libertarian movements and some are even with the teabaggers I believe, so I wouldn't class all the movements together as changing american politics

[mrmikhail]

I just read into it, apparently in NYC they do have a 15 person "security" unit that they've formed but crime continues to rise.....

[Leftsolidarity]

who's father is an NYPD police detective



There's your problem

[mrmikhail]

There's your problem

Won't argue against that one. :D

But apparently within NYC the crime rate in the tent camps are well noted, and increasingly high

[Leftsolidarity]

I just go this from MoveOn


Dear MoveOn member,
In just 16 days, the congressional "Super Committee" could announce a proposal with billions of dollars in job-killing cuts—instead of raising taxes on the 1%.1
Washington doesn't understand—or doesn't care—that we're in a state of economic emergency.
The 99% can't take more of the same from Congress. So we're organizing a massive day of action on November 17 to draw a line in the sand. We'll rally at crumbling bridges, understaffed schools, and other sites that show the local symptoms of a failed economy—the very places that can also create millions of new jobs. In all 50 states and in every corner of the country, we'll demand that Congress stand up for a plan that helps us, not the 1%.....

That's why we're working with SEIU, AFL-CIO, Occupy Wall Street, and other groups to organize hundreds of events for our "We Are The 99%" day on November 17. If we organize enough events, tens of thousands of Americans can maximize their voices a week before the Super Committee decision.

[aty]

I just read into it, apparently in NYC they do have a 15 person "security" unit that they've formed but crime continues to rise.....
What fucking bullshit, provocateur....

I am sure that the people around Adbusters are competent enough to have a way of stopping this. You have no clue and are just spreading false rumours.

[mrmikhail]

What fucking bullshit, provocateur....

I am sure that the people around Adbusters are competent enough to have a way of stopping this. You have no clue and are just spreading false rumours.

yeah right, you got it :rolleyes:

[aty]

yeah right, you got it :rolleyes:
Yes, I cant understand people like you coming with bullshit when something very positive is happening in the US.

[mrmikhail]

Yes, I cant understand people like you coming with bullshit when something very positive is happening in the US.

of course, you got it comrade :rolleyes:

[A Marxist Historian]

...
I heard it from a comrade of mine who's father is an NYPD police detective, tells him of quite a bit of the goings on...

Does it need to be pointed out that cops are liars? And this is exactly the kind of filthy lie about OWS that the cops are likely to spread?

One can't blame this "comrade" of "mrmikhail" for who his parents are--but he should stop spreading filthy lies from his father, who is the enemy.

Police are *not* part of the 99%, they are tools of the 1%, whatever the "IMT" may think on the subject.

-M.H.-

[mrmikhail]

Does it need to be pointed out that cops are liars? And this is exactly the kind of filthy lie about OWS that the cops are likely to spread?

One can't blame this "comrade" of "mrmikhail" for who his parents are--but he should stop spreading filthy lies from his father, who is the enemy.

Police are *not* part of the 99%, they are tools of the 1%, whatever the "IMT" may think on the subject.

-M.H.-

Be it a lie or not, it is being reported from all of the occupy movements. While I am certain they are quite exaggerated in numbers, I highly doubt they are devoid of it, especially with the movements forming their own groups to protect one another from the criminals.

Don't put my name in quotes.

And while I am a member of the IMT, I do not agree the police are the working class, as I have stated in at least two other threads they are of the Petit-bourgeois class, should perhaps take a look at the police threads on here for my view, Spart.

[Leftsolidarity]

And while I am a member of the IMT, I do not agree the police are the working class, as I have stated in at least two other threads they are of the Petit-bourgeois class, should perhaps take a look at the police threads on here for my view, Spart.

How are they small business owners exactly?

[RED DAVE]

[T]hey really need to re-organise and adopt a real plan instead of just impeding traffic constantly in a futile effort to stop corporatism and austerity....Instead of just complaining that the OWS doesn't fit your political criteria, what are you doing to steer your local OWS in a political direction and in the direction of labor?

RED DAVE

[mrmikhail]

How are they small business owners exactly?

Government workers, such as the police, are considered apart of this class.


and my local "OWS" movement is rather pathetic and only operates on weekends apparently, and only until the sun goes down when the park they are in shuts down. So I cannot really say it is a worthwhile venture to even attend it, but I have and passed out my party literature there, but most people just seem to be... naive and unpolitical down there

[Leftsolidarity]

Government workers, such as the police, are considered apart of this class.



Says who?




and my local "OWS" movement is rather pathetic and only operates on weekends apparently, and only until the sun goes down when the park they are in shuts down. So I cannot really say it is a worthwhile venture to even attend it, but I have and passed out my party literature there, but most people just seem to be... naive and unpolitical down there

Mine isn't that bad but mine is rather disappointing too. You got to start somewhere though. This is your working class that you are trying to make into revolutionaries but you are abandoning them.

[mrmikhail]

Says who?



Mine isn't that bad but mine is rather disappointing too. You got to start somewhere though. This is your working class that you are trying to make into revolutionaries but you are abandoning them.


The term is extended to professional middle class (which would be police/government workers/lower management) and better off farmers, even to farmers who just own their own small parcel of land.

The problem is they are not workers, they are high school/college students who actually sign up for time slots to "occupy" the park...apparently if you just show up you're not apart of it (As I was told when I showed up). But I haven't abandoned them, I still do pass out party literature and try to convert some

[aty]

of course, you got it comrade :rolleyes:
Yes I got it, you dont. How old are you? You cant be very old. Then you would know about how rare it is to have an anti-capitalist movement in the US.

And then too start spreading lies and bullshit about that movement that has finally come to the US is just amazing.

[mrmikhail]

Yes I got it, you dont. How old are you? You cant be very old. Then you would know about how rare it is to have an anti-capitalist movement in the US.

And then too start spreading lies and bullshit about that movement that has finally come to the US is just amazing.

Yep, all the way! :laugh:

And I am 28, and quite well versed in US politics, including the revolutionary left through my WIL membership. And I definitely would not consider it to be an all anti-capitalist movement, considering a good number of these attendees are Libertarians (Ron Paul even took the side of the OWS protesters when Cain denounced them), so don't go getting delusional until something begins to really come of it, which I admit may come, though I feel much more like it's going to be status quo.

[Pretty Flaco]

Yep, all the way! :laugh:

And I am 28, and quite well versed in US politics, including the revolutionary left through my WIL membership. And I definitely would not consider it to be an all anti-capitalist movement, considering a good number of these attendees are Libertarians (Ron Paul even took the side of the OWS protesters when Cain denounced them), so don't go getting delusional until something begins to really come of it, which I admit may come, though I feel much more like it's going to be status quo.

the occupy movements show a general trend of growing discontent with the state of social and economic conditions within the US. they don't need to be branded with "socialist" signs and slogans to be the building blocks of class consciousness. a movement isn't born, it's built.

[mrmikhail]

the occupy movements show a general trend of growing discontent with the state of social and economic conditions within the US. they don't need to be branded with "socialist" signs and slogans to be the building blocks of class consciousness. a movement isn't born, it's built.

in this same way "class collaboration" can be built from such a movement, which is the opposite of what we want to happen. Right now it is mostly just discontent, but in the future it could be steered one side of the fence (socialism) or the other (fascism)


But do not get me wrong, my party has been at OWS since day one, and I am not writing it off completely, I am merely reserving my opinion of it on the developments that begin to come from it, but I will not get my hopes up.

[aty]

You americans should be happy just with class collaboration right now, almost. It is atleast something.

What dream world are you living in? Get out there and start forming the movement to become a class movement like the one in Oakland have succeded doing. It is a huge advancement in the class struggle.
Struggles against the state and capital makes people inevitably more radical. We socialists just have to direct the struggle and a class consicousness will develop. It is like the swedish socialist and miner said about the wild cat miners strikes "The important thing about a strike is that the workers then understand the power the working class has, that the bosses are just parasites on us, you realise that you as a class got the power."

You just seem ignorant and dumb. The OWS facebook-group have posted several texts about anarchism and practically said out loud it is a leftist movement.

[mrmikhail]

You americans should be happy just with class collaboration right now, almost. It is atleast something.

What dream world are you living in? Get out there and start forming the movement to become a class movement like the one in Oakland have succeded doing. It is a huge advancement in the class struggle.
Struggles against the state and capital makes people inevitably more radical. We socialists just have to direct the struggle and a class consicousness will develop. It is like the swedish socialist and miner said about the wild cat miners strikes "The important thing about a strike is that the workers then understand the power the working class has, that the bosses are just parasites on us, you realise that you as a class got the power."

You just seem ignorant and dumb. The OWS facebook-group have posted several texts about anarchism and practically said out loud it is a leftist movement.

Class collaboration is a principle of fascism.....think the US has enough reaction, thank you for the offer though.

My organisational affiliation is revolutionary, but my city in the US is not hit hard enough by economic conditions to form any kind of movement such as was in Oakland, read my earlier posts on the Occupy movement in this city, which is rather elitist....I mean you have to sign up for a shift to occupy the park.

And oh yes, let's go by what people post on a facebook page :rolleyes:

also you seem very repetitious and redundant.

[aty]

Yes it is, but socialdemocracy also work with class collaboration as in my country Sweden and I think we had and have more socialism than most countries.

Here you have the ideology-background behind the OWS-movement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_jamming

And if you knew anything about politics and socialism you would knew what these situationists started in may 1968 in Paris....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:: rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:: rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:: rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:: rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:: rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:: rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:: rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:: rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[mrmikhail]

Yes it is, but socialdemocracy also work with class collaboration as in my country Sweden and I think we had and have more socialism than most countries.

Here you have the ideology-background behind the OWS-movement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_jamming

And if you knew anything about politics and socialism you would knew what these situationists started in may 1968 in Paris....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:: rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:: rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:: rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:: rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:: rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:: rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:: rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:: rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Don't believe I ever said anything about the roots of the movement not being inspired by those of the late 1960s. So your repetitious and redundant eye rolls are rather pointless I must say.

Personally I dislike the welfare state (social democracy) as it isn't socialism, it's capitalism with worker friendly policies. It might be an improvement on the current system in america, but with the current economic recession and level of debt, I highly doubt such a system is even possible in america due to these factors...

[aty]

What I am trying to understand is how you not can be excited by this movement and the situations it creates and start spreading bullshit rumours. Is is just so remarkable.

[Blackscare]

What I am trying to understand is how you not can be excited by this movement and the situations it creates and start spreading bullshit rumours. Is is just so remarkable.

Maybe you're not familiar with what's being said in the press in the US, which I'll grant you since you're in sweden, but he/she's far from "spreading bullshit rumors", these accusations/rumors have been all over the place and are being pretty widely discussed. I do think that the rumors are bullshit, but it's not as if the OP is a lone wolf inventing these rumors alone. I think that OP bought into the story without using much critical thinking, though. From the time I spent at OWS, including a few nights of camping, I can tell you that the security group is pretty effective and keeps up a presence. Having stayed there and witnessed what the atmosphere was at, say, 3 am (I'm a night-owl), I find it really hard to believe that people are raping each other nearly as often as is being claimed. Could it have happened? Sure. Is it endemic to the movement? Hardly.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Maybe you're not familiar with what's being said in the press in the US, which I'll grant you since you're in sweden, but he/she's far from "spreading bullshit rumors", these accusations/rumors have been all over the place and are being pretty widely discussed. I do think that the rumors are bullshit, but it's not as if the OP is a lone wolf inventing these rumors alone.

That's true, but I haven't even heard Fox News report that there's been a rape every night in Zuccotti Park...

[mrmikhail]

I do not get excited such things, I much prefer to see how they begin to pan out after they organise more.

On the matter of the news, I have emailed my party members in NYC, who have been with OWS since day one, and am awaiting to hear back from them on their experiences at the park, with crime, questions on it's rise, prevalence, and so on. I'll save any further comment on the crimes there until I hear back from the branch office.

[aty]

I do not get excited such things, I much prefer to see how they begin to pan out after they organise more.

On the matter of the news, I have emailed my party members in NYC, who have been with OWS since day one, and am awaiting to hear back from them on their experiences at the park, with crime, questions on it's rise, prevalence, and so on. I'll save any further comment on the crimes there until I hear back from the branch office.
Good luck with your perfect socialist trotskyist movement and the fourth international revolution.

With this mindset in american socialists it is no wonder why there are so few today...

You have the biggest anticapitalist movement in your country in 40 years and you start *****ing about right wing rumours of crime. It is amazing.

[mrmikhail]

Good luck with your perfect socialist trotskyist movement and the fourth international revolution.

With this mindset in american socialists it is no wonder why there are so few today...

You have the biggest anticapitalist movement in your country in 40 years and you start *****ing about right wing rumours of crime. It is amazing.

I'm in the IMT, not the 4th international.

The failures of the fourth international and repression by american system, as well as KGB infiltration set Trotskyists in america to be small.


And as I have stated before, this is not *my* country, I am just here for now, wasn't born here.