Cuba Allows for purchase of property...

[TheCuriousJournalist]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/world/americas/cubans-can-buy-and-sell-property-government-says.html

Is this the beginning of the end of anything good in Cuba?
Or did it start a long time ago?

Also, post great things Cuba accomplished since Fidel came to power.
I'm planning on doing a R.I.P. Cuba article, and although I have a basis, wouldn't mind some additional points from RevLefters.

[Ocean Seal]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/world/americas/cubans-can-buy-and-sell-property-government-says.html

Is this the beginning of the end of anything good in Cuba?
Or did it start a long time ago?

Also, post great things Cuba accomplished since Fidel came to power.
I'm planning on doing a R.I.P. Cuba article, and although I have a basis, wouldn't mind some additional points from RevLefters.
Yes.
We all knew that Cuba couldn't remain socialist. It was an island suffering under the embargo, socialism in one country, and a rather small one at that can't work.

[RadioRaheem84]

Sounds like Thatcher's privatization of the public housing, trying to create an ownership society.

[RED DAVE]

State capitalism morphing itself into private capitalism, one more tine. Note how the workers in Cuba are rising up to defend "socialism."

RED DAVE

[Agathor]

I think we'll hear the phrase Socialism with Cuban Characteristics soon, or something very similar.

What some are calling Cuba's move to capitalism is really the Cuban regime recognizing what has been obvious to every observant person for more than a decade: Cuba already has a private economy.

Maybe I'll write a counter article documenting all of the failures of marxist-leninist economy in Cuba. Such as the fact that it was practically the only country in the western hemisphere to wrestle regularly with famine.

[RedSonRising]

We've been hearing the same news for about two years now and all that uber-critical leftists can do is applause and cheer on what may be a return to private capitalism and a move away from the gains of the Cuban Revolution in order to say "I told you so".

[Red Rabbit]

To think, everything Che and the people of Cuba went through is being flushed down the drain.

Disheartening, to say the least.

[arabellaB]

I don't really agree with what they have done.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

To think, everything Che and the people of Cuba went through is being flushed down the drain.

Disheartening, to say the least.
Depressing is the word

[KurtFF8]

Certainly a bad move by Cuba. The reasoning behind it is that there is a crisis in housing on the island and they have been able to overcome it, so they hope this reform will help that.

The main risks are of course the possibility of homelessness and of course class divisions.

Hopefully this will be more of a NEP kind of transition, but given the current state of affairs, I'm not as optimistic as I wish I could be

[KurtFF8]

Here's a Q and A about the issue on CubaDebate.cu http://www.cubadebate.cu/noticias/2011/11/05/preguntas-y-respuestas-sobre-las-nuevas-disposiciones-y-tramites-de-la-ley-de-la-vivienda-en-cuba-video-y-documento/

Personally I can't understand Spanish well enough so I'm just using google translate

[Agathor]

There was a good article in the New York Review of Books a few months ago; I'll dig it up if anybody is interested. It was written by a Cuban intellectual who demonstrates that an extremely large proportion of the Cuban workforce is already in the black market private sector, and the recent reforms are just the government finally recognizing this blindingly obvious fact and abandoning their futile efforts to combat it.

[the last donut of the night]

Certainly a bad move by Cuba. The reasoning behind it is that there is a crisis in housing on the island and they have been able to overcome it, so they hope this reform will help that.

The main risks are of course the possibility of homelessness and of course class divisions.

Hopefully this will be more of a NEP kind of transition, but given the current state of affairs, I'm not as optimistic as I wish I could be

lol no the country's just run by capitalists, duh

[Os Cangaceiros]

Fuck! I was about to post a smartass "inb4 NEP reference", but I was beaten to it! :mellow:

[KurtFF8]

lol no the country's just run by capitalists, duh

Of course I've yet to see anyone actually demonstrate this claim.


Fuck! I was about to post a smartass "inb4 NEP reference", but I was beaten to it!

Is it really that odd to reference the NEP in terms of the current reforms in Cuba?

[Iron Felix]

But socialism in one country works guys! Really! I swear!

[tir1944]

Is it really that odd to reference the NEP in terms of the current reforms in Cuba? Yes,because the Bolsheviks recognizd the NEP as a strategic retreat,but the Cuban Comparty sees it as a step forward.


But socialism in one country works guys! Really! I swear!

What does this have to do with anything?
It's quite idiotic to ignore the context of socialism in the Soviet Union (1/6 of the world) and socialism on a rater small Carribean island.

[KurtFF8]

Yes,because the Bolsheviks recognizd the NEP as a strategic retreat,but the Cuban Comparty sees it as a step forward.

That's not really the sense I got when I was there. I think there are many socialists in Cuba who see it as a retreat.

[tir1944]

I think there are many socialists in Cuba who see it as a retreat.
Quite possible,however it seems that the Cuban Comparty doesn't.
It's started to "liberalize" the country some time ago,and it keeps on going further and further from socialism.

[KurtFF8]

How does the Communist Party of Cuba view it exactly?

[tir1944]

I don't really know,but since Fidel said that "the planned economy doesn't work anymore",it's reasonable to suppose,and makes sense considering the facts such as this recent reform,that the CPC has turned away from a planned economy,that is,adopted a "liberalization" politics platform which in all previou cases gradually led to the abandonment of socialism.

[KurtFF8]

Did Fidel say that? Can you cite that quote of his?

And I have seen the CPC say that abandoning socialism is not on the table, I have never seen them praise liberalization and moving away from socialism though.

[Iron Felix]

Yes,because the Bolsheviks recognizd the NEP as a strategic retreat,but the Cuban Comparty sees it as a step forward.


What does this have to do with anything?
It's quite idiotic to ignore the context of socialism in the Soviet Union (1/6 of the world) and socialism on a rater small Carribean island.
Doesn't seem like socialism worked our very well in the Soviet Union either, comrade.

[KurtFF8]

Doesn't seem like socialism worked our very well in the Soviet Union either, comrade.

What do you mean by "worked out very well" exactly? This sounds like nitpicking but it's quite important.

Does "working out" imply raising standards of living, innovation, industrialization, etc? If so, then I would say it certainly worked for quite some time.

If work just means "didn't collapse" then obviously it didn't. But such a criterion for "working out" may be problematic for a host of reasons.

[tir1944]

Did Fidel say that? Can you cite that quote of his?
http://www.revleft.com/vb/fidel-castro-cuban-t141386/index.html


And I have seen the CPC say that abandoning socialism is not on the table, I have never seen them praise liberalization and moving away from socialism though.
Yes and the Communist Party of China still speaks about "socialism with Chinese characteristics,developing socialism in China" and what not.
They're not going to openly admit it just like that.

[Gustav HK]

Neither China nor Cuba were ever socialist.

[Iron Felix]

What do you mean by "worked out very well" exactly? This sounds like nitpicking but it's quite important.

Does "working out" imply raising standards of living, innovation, industrialization, etc? If so, then I would say it certainly worked for quite some time.

If work just means "didn't collapse" then obviously it didn't. But such a criterion for "working out" may be problematic for a host of reasons.
Then surely, if "raising standards of living, innovation, industrialization" was the goal, then perhaps, the October revolution was not neccesary? Seeing as how after the Feb. Rev., Russia was literally the freest society in the world and on the road to advanced capitalist development which would lead to raised standards of living, innovation and industrialization. One has to remember that the standards of living and the level of industry was low only because the industry was destroyed and the country ravaged due to the events caused by the October Revolution.

[KurtFF8]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/fidel-castro-cuban-t141386/index.html

Of course Fidel explained how those quotes were taken out of context, and didn't claim that "planning doesn't work"


Yes and the Communist Party of China still speaks about "socialism with Chinese characteristics,developing socialism in China" and what not.
They're not going to openly admit it just like that.

Indeed, yet China and Cuba aren't doing the same thing.


Neither China nor Cuba were ever socialist.

Ah, okay.


Then surely, if "raising standards of living, innovation, industrialization" was the goal, then perhaps, the October revolution was not neccesary? Seeing as how after the Feb. Rev., Russia was literally the freest society in the world and on the road to advanced capitalist development which would lead to raised standards of living, innovation and industrialization. One has to remember that the standards of living and the level of industry was low only because the industry was destroyed and the country ravaged due to the events caused by the October Revolution.

What are you talking about? How did the October Revolution destroy industry in any way?

[Jose Gracchus]

Did Fidel say that? Can you cite that quote of his?

And I have seen the CPC say that abandoning socialism is not on the table, I have never seen them praise liberalization and moving away from socialism though.

Neither did Gorby's CPSU in mid-1990. If you set your clock according to whether the ruling CP lets you know straight up that they are selling out, you'll be waiting a long time to ever see it. It happens quite often though.

[Jose Gracchus]

Does "working out" imply raising standards of living, innovation, industrialization, etc? If so, then I would say it certainly worked for quite some time.

There was no objective, consistent progress in this direction until long after the 'heroic period' of Russian CP rule. It is more the creature of Khrushchev and Brezhnev. Assets were destroyed during the First Five Year Plan. Living standards fell precipitously under Stalin's forced march.


If work just means "didn't collapse" then obviously it didn't. But such a criterion for "working out" may be problematic for a host of reasons.

The Soviet-model is not a suitable device for working-class liberation and replacing the bourgeois political economy in the 21st century. It was not planning, and it did not work.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Is it really that odd to reference the NEP in terms of the current reforms in Cuba?

It's not just this specific policy reform; it's the fact that everything *some* left tendencies view as uncomfortable within ostensibly socialist regimes is compared to NEP. I've seen policy actions of the DPRK, PRC and Vietnam compared to NEP, as well.

[R_P_A_S]

I don't really know,but since Fidel said that "the planned economy doesn't work anymore",it's reasonable to suppose,and makes sense considering the facts such as this recent reform,that the CPC has turned away from a planned economy,that is,adopted a "liberalization" politics platform which in all previou cases gradually led to the abandonment of socialism.

He did NOT say that! come on man! I actually enjoy reading your post.. You should know better than to take "excerpts" from a WESTERN media source and run with them like they DO!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11265911

[R_P_A_S]

What's an alternative then? to allowing the private sell of homes?

[Robocommie]

To think, everything Che and the people of Cuba went through is being flushed down the drain.

Disheartening, to say the least.

I understand how you feel, but even so I have to disagree. Even if capitalism is restored now, Che and the people of Cuba accomplished two crucial things:

1) For a long time they alleviated the worst effects of capitalism and provided themselves with a better standard of living, which mattered a lot to the people who lived during that era
2) They provided an enduring, concrete and pragmatic example of an attempt to build a socialist society and gave the leftists of the world a chance to analyze what was done right and what was done wrong and what could be done better next time. That's hugely important.