Occupy Britain?

[Rainsborough]

I am seriously starting to wonder what is going on with the left in Britain. This forum is ablaze with the developments happening in the United States where it seems the occupy movement is starting to undergo radical developments. But what the hell is happening here? While the Occupy Movement in America is beginning to take a leftward turn into worker strikes in Britain we are obviously still at the ‘circle jerk’, hippy, dressing up stage. It would appear that the Occupy Oakland events are providing an example to other American Occupy Movements, and I had hoped that that example might cross the Atlantic and inspire those here. But the opposite seems to have occurred, rather than there being a sudden surge of activity by our leftist groups, in preparation for the much awaited ‘National Strike’, the voices of the British left seem to have gone quiet.

Are we now to ‘shut up’, for fear of rocking the Labour boat? Have the events of August last finished the left in Britain off for once and all?

[bricolage]

I think you're presenting a false dichotomy here, there is going to be a mass public sector strike at the end of the month, the student demo next week is going to be joined by striking electricians and taxi drivers. Just because it isn't directly associated to the occupy movement I'm sure 'the left' is still involved with these events.

I also think occupy Oakland seems to be an anomaly in regards to the rest of America but I'll stand aside for others to correct me here.

[ZeroNowhere]

Occupy Britain?
Um, we're already doing that, thank you very much.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

On the 9th there's a student anti-cuts march that's going to be joined by some unions and on the 30th is the big union anti-cuts march in regards to pensions.

University of Birmingham occupied their university in preparation for the march on the 9th. http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/11/468456.html

Occupy Newcastle were confronted and attacked by the EDL but have kept at it despite the thuggish violence. http://uaf.org.uk/2011/10/fascist-edl-thugs-attack-occupy-newcastle-protestors/

Occupy London Stock Exchange have tentative permission to occupy until New Years as the St Pauls clergy cave in upon realising that perhaps the violence needed to clear them out wasn't a good thing according to their bible. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/02/occupy-london-permission-new-year

I'm not sure what you're worried about, comrade. It's happening right now so get involved. :confused:

[Rainsborough]

Um, we're already doing that, thank you very much.

??

[The Insurrection]

The Occupy movement in the UK is a complete joke. Many of the occupy groups are pro-capitalist or at the least take liberal and reformist stands on political change. Many of them have been sanctioned by the local authorities and are actively seeking the help of that world renowned politically progressive institution, the Anglican church.

[The Insurrection]

The working class have nothing to do with the Occupy Movement.

[Jimmie Higgins]

The occupations in the US do have a different character from location to location. Oakland has been slowly developing politically over the last few years with large immigrant rights marches and then the Oscar Grant movement, so that allowed Occupy Oakland to be one of the more racially integrated movements and since Oakland is still a multi-ethnic "union town" by contemporary US standards it has been fairly easy to make connections between the Occupation movement and the left-wing in the labor and social "movements".

But even with all that the movement is still heavy with liberal ideas and confusion over the role of police and the liberal mayor. OWS itself is even more dominated by liberal ideas as far as I can tell.

But unlike the recent past, the liberal ideas taken for granted by a lot of people will necessarily be challenged due to the pressures of the economy and austerity. Obama could pretend that the wars abroad were finished and convince enough people to buy him some time - people don't see the bombs and devastation so it's easier to fool people. Austerity won't be so easy to hide. NYC has a liberal Republican mayor and Oakland has one of the most liberal Democrat mayors in the country and Chicago has an Obama guru and so for the first time in a long time a movement is actually challenging not just the right-wing but liberalism in power. So a rejection of the political establishment is interwoven into this movement and that's part of what is so potentially important about it. Also for the US, the 99%/1% formulation is a class-based sigh of relief in a country with huge inequality where supposedly class doesn't exist. So a politically independent movement (so far more or less) that has pointed its finger on THE major social divide in society (one that has very rarely been acknowledged in the US over the last couple of generations) is what makes it so significant.

Maybe that's one of the reasons it hasn't taken off as much in the UK where there is more of a general crude understanding of the class divide.

[bricolage]

From my experience the 99% mantra doesn't seem to have gained as much traction amongst a lot of people in the UK who are questioning the broad nature of such a category. I'm not sure much of the working class sees its interests and life as congruent with all but 1% of the population.

Regarding the occupy movement and liberalism on the one hand I think its silly to lambast people for not being automatic revolutionaries and because there are no communists about, every social revolt of any meaning has always largely been made by ordinary non-ideological workers simply acting against the immediate social conditions they face and not because of some pre-ordained theoretical basis. On the other hand it seems disingenous to say the majority of those involved in the occupations are just 'ordinary' (sorry, I really hate that word but can't think of anything else to use) people acting out of anger at how society is functioning, this of course plays a part but it seems largely populated by people with strong pre-existing political convictions, well versed in activism (v for vendetta masks, 'this is what democracy looks like') yet acting under, well, pretty shit politics. It seems despite the millenarian discourse on how 'new' this is a lot of people are just re-acting out the alter-globalisation movement but on a new stage. Maybe I'm being too critical but this is the impression I've got the few times I've been there.

I also really like this piece someone wrote, Time to Re-Occupy Our Own Lives (http://caimandelbarrio.wordpress.com/2011/11/03/time-to-re-occupy-our-own-lives/)

[The Insurrection]

From my experience the 99% mantra doesn't seem to have gained as much traction amongst a lot of people in the UK who are questioning the broad nature of such a category. I'm not sure much of the working class sees its interests and life as congruent with all but 1% of the population.

That's because it's a trite, bullshit slogan. People aren't idiots.

[Ocean Seal]

That's because it's a trite, bullshit slogan. People aren't idiots.
Its not a bad slogan per-se and if we do recall correctly, Marx says that we are united based on our relations to production, not income.

[Angry Young Man]

If you think that the Occupy movement in the UK is a rag-tag of hippie vegan crystal-healers, go down there to try steer it. Simples.

[Rainsborough]

If you think that the Occupy movement in the UK is a rag-tag of hippie vegan crystal-healers, go down there to try steer it. Simples.

Okay, why don't you?

[mrmikhail]

Okay, why don't you?

No kidding, I would have expected more out of the CWI.....

Should already have been out and, at least, attempting to politicise the movement.

But on another note, the Nov 30th strike is quite a big step in general, supposed to be the largest strike since the 1920s, should have a pretty big impact on the UK's government.

[Rainsborough]

It would appear that the publicisation of the police's availability of baton rounds, has had an effect on the numbers attending todays student protest. I wonder if they'll advertise before the 30th a similar possibility of violent response? And if they do will that reduce the 'biggest strike' since the 1920s, to a carnival event?

[Rainsborough]

No kidding, I would have expected more out of the CWI.....

Yeah, don't we all?

[Craig_J]

The Occupy protests in Britain won't bring about anything at all. And that's because there's a ridiculous ammount of different views which have just been mashed in together to create.... nothing!

Nothing has been agreed on. They call it anti-capitalist protests but I wouldn't even say it's that. I think the only thing they all agree on is that they hate the bankers for earning so so much despite what they've done to this and almost every other country.

But I think the vast majoirty of people hate the bankers anyway, the government doesn't need to be told these.

There really has to be some structure to this. I'm not expecting a full on communist protest as I don't think it would attract many people but there needs to be a demand for a more socialist way of running the nation. What ever happens I sadly can't see capitalism ever disappearing from the UK but if we can move in a more socialist direction, hey at least it's a start.

Personally I think the protests should be aimed more at grabbing the attention of the Labour Party. Surelly it can't be impossible to drag them away from being the centralised party they are today and back to what they used to be if there is a high demand from the working class for it?

At the moment the protests in London are just giving anti-capitalism a bad name. And I wouldn't say it's so much to do with being outside the cathedral but more to do with the fact it's just such a mix of views that no one can know for sure what the protestors are calling for.

I think it's time that the protestors went away let the rememberance day memorial go on and come back once they have actually comprimised and agreed on a particular stance so we can have a true protest with true meaning.

[mrmikhail]

The Occupy protests in Britain won't bring about anything at all. And that's because there's a ridiculous ammount of different views which have just been mashed in together to create.... nothing!


The entire OWS movement in america is exactly that....

Aside from a few select areas namely Occupy Oakland which is highly successful, and now Occupy Dallas calling for strikes, there is little progress, but according to some on this forum I am supposed to be excited for this, since it's the biggest social changing event since the 1960s!

But that logic I should be exited for the LA riots in the 90s as a successful large scale social movement....I gotta say it's achieving more than the main OWS movement (aside from those mentioned) is.....

[mrmikhail]

Yeah, don't we all?

Seems our CWI "brothers" have lost their way, quite a let down for the movement comrade, quite a let down. I hope at least the IMT can handle the situation in Britain a little better.

[Rainsborough]

Seems out CWI "brothers" have lost their way, quite a let down for the movement comrade, quite a let down. I hope at least the IMT can handle the situation in Britain a little better.

Don't count on it comrade. At the risk of starting a row, the 'left' in Britain needs a bloody good kick up the ass.

[mrmikhail]

Don't count on it comrade. At the risk of starting a row, the 'left' in Britain needs a bloody good kick up the ass.

:laugh: that is a good possibility, from what I have heard of it these last few years

[Angry Young Man]

Okay, why don't you?

Or alternatively you could guttersnipe about the Occupations getting nowhere because they're aimless, fractured and have no basis in the working class.

[A Marxist Historian]

The Occupy protests in Britain won't bring about anything at all. And that's because there's a ridiculous ammount of different views which have just been mashed in together to create.... nothing!

Nothing has been agreed on. They call it anti-capitalist protests but I wouldn't even say it's that. I think the only thing they all agree on is that they hate the bankers for earning so so much despite what they've done to this and almost every other country.

But I think the vast majoirty of people hate the bankers anyway, the government doesn't need to be told these.

There really has to be some structure to this. I'm not expecting a full on communist protest as I don't think it would attract many people but there needs to be a demand for a more socialist way of running the nation. What ever happens I sadly can't see capitalism ever disappearing from the UK but if we can move in a more socialist direction, hey at least it's a start.

Personally I think the protests should be aimed more at grabbing the attention of the Labour Party. Surelly it can't be impossible to drag them away from being the centralised party they are today and back to what they used to be if there is a high demand from the working class for it?

Frankly, I doubt it. Only thing keeping the Labour Party from just becoming another capitalist party is that it's still dependent on the union bureaucrats to pay its bills. Not the rank and file, the bureaucrats. Not too much hope there.

But even if you could, why would you? The Labour Party spent the entire twentieth century selling out the workers up, down and sideways.

Time for a *revolutionary* workers party in England. Past time. And as centralised as necessary to be effective. Democratic too of course. That's why they call it "democratic centralism."

-M.H.-


At the moment the protests in London are just giving anti-capitalism a bad name. And I wouldn't say it's so much to do with being outside the cathedral but more to do with the fact it's just such a mix of views that no one can know for sure what the protestors are calling for.

I think it's time that the protestors went away let the rememberance day memorial go on and come back once they have actually comprimised and agreed on a particular stance so we can have a true protest with true meaning.

[A Marxist Historian]

Don't count on it comrade. At the risk of starting a row, the 'left' in Britain needs a bloody good kick up the ass.

Not much risk there. Indeed at this point it is more of a consensus viewpoint, the one thing everybody can agree on, including in Britain.

-M.H.-

[Sam_b]

Or alternatively you could guttersnipe about the Occupations getting nowhere because they're aimless, fractured and have no basis in the working class.

Occupy Glasgow have had a woman raped on their site, and has been exclusively run by conspiracy theorists. Despite some open letters from the existing Glasgow left, they persist in the occupation. Is this something we should be trying to lead or influence?

[Charlie Watt]

I find the sloganeering of the Occupy movement to be grating and simplistic. Occupy Glasgow was utter wank, and although I can't speak from first hand experience, a lot of Londoners and folk from other occupations are telling me that it's largely a pacifism-and-vegan-curry-fest. A bunch of disaffected lib-dem's with an occasional appearance from Sunny Hundal *shudders*

While I admire the direct democracy aspect of the movement, its apparent desire to appear almost apolitical, a lack of real militancy as well as the absence of an explicit anti-capitalist message will see it achieving a great deal of fuck all.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Sniping from the sidelines about every Occupy movement (there are nearly 1,000 across the globe), based on the alleged inadequacy of 1 or 2 in the UK, strikes me as baseless, unnecessary and counter-productive.

Of course, i've not been to Occupy London yet, i'll be there next week hopefully, so I can't really assume a first-hand position on this, but there seems to be a lot of the typical sectarian nonsense emanating from the mouths of the usual left partisans of the UK left. Where have the SWP been? SPEW? CPGB? CPGB-ML? CPB?

They've been doing fuck all. Tbh, even if Occupy London is currently a hippy-vegan-and-pacifism-fest (which, judging by the UBS occupation, is slightly inaccurate at best), i'd take the direct democracy elements ahead of any shit that the left sects in the UK are just not doing. They ain't doing nothing.

[Sam_b]

I don't feel that pointing out sexual assaults in the movement is merely 'sniping', do you?

[Rainsborough]

Sniping from the sidelines about every Occupy movement (there are nearly 1,000 across the globe), based on the alleged inadequacy of 1 or 2 in the UK, strikes me as baseless, unnecessary and counter-productive.

Of course, i've not been to Occupy London yet, i'll be there next week hopefully, so I can't really assume a first-hand position on this, but there seems to be a lot of the typical sectarian nonsense emanating from the mouths of the usual left partisans of the UK left. Where have the SWP been? SPEW? CPGB? CPGB-ML? CPB?

They've been doing fuck all. Tbh, even if Occupy London is currently a hippy-vegan-and-pacifism-fest (which, judging by the UBS occupation, is slightly inaccurate at best), i'd take the direct democracy elements ahead of any shit that the left sects in the UK are just not doing. They ain't doing nothing.

The way things seem to be going, lets hope you get there before it vanishes.
Sad indictment of the state of the British left. I can't say where they've been, probably still lying low after the pathetic responses to the August uprising. once the 'Occupy' camps have been cleared we can expect long tirades about how we need to organise. Back to the same routine that we have been sticking too since 1917.

[Charlie Watt]

Tbh, even if Occupy London is currently a hippy-vegan-and-pacifism-fest (which, judging by the UBS occupation, is slightly inaccurate at best), i'd take the direct democracy elements ahead of any shit that the left sects in the UK are just not doing. They ain't doing nothing.

My point was, it's be nice to meet somewhere in middle, direct democracy attached to something genuinely left wing. There's this whole "let's combat corporate greed!" thing, as if greedy corporations are some sort of bizarre aberration. A lot of them seen to have a ridiculous notion in their head that a benign form of capitalism is possible, or existed in the past, a gold standard to be returned to.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The way things seem to be going, lets hope you get there before it vanishes.
Sad indictment of the state of the British left. I can't say where they've been, probably still lying low after the pathetic responses to the August uprising. once the 'Occupy' camps have been cleared we can expect long tirades about how we need to organise. Back to the same routine that we have been sticking too since 1917.

You're right, it's a massively sad indictment of what the British left has become, to the point that really, the parties that traditionally made up the left cannot really be thought of as representing the left-wing in Britain any more, as they simply do not fulfil the function of 'representing' the working class.

I don't quite share your negativity, though. A lot will hinge on whether Occupy can struggle on through the winter, and whether the Nov 30th public sector strikes will provide the catalyst for direction and leadership to emerge in opposition to Capitalism, not merely the defensive economic protests we have seen thus far.

I guess it's a case of 'time will tell', right now.

[Rainsborough]

That is a hope I too share comrade, whatever happens in respect of the 'Occupy Movement' that it, along with the Nov 30 Public Sector stikes, will act as a catalyst and a 'wake up' call to the left. Perhaps they will move back to a truly representatve position, rather than simply split into yet another myriad of various tendencies.
We desperately need a more representative and effective left, rather than more groups do the same old thing, in the same old way.

[Angry Young Man]

Conspiracy nutters may not be worth bothering with, but vegan hippies certainly are worth a shot. In Bristol, which you would expect to be the most hippie vegan crystal healer-ish, their manifesto has a clause of fighting the cuts, and another of supporting N30. So try again.

Oh, and I remember earlier there was someone saying Occupy has nothing to do with the working class. Last week, the CWU established a link with OB for their support in a strike. During that strike, one of the de facto leaders gave a brilliant speech about the importance of organised labour.

[Sam_b]

So try again


Occupy Glasgow have had a woman raped on their site, and has been exclusively run by conspiracy theorists. Despite some open letters from the existing Glasgow left, they persist in the occupation. Is this something we should be trying to lead or influence?

.

[Angry Young Man]

When you say Occupy Glasgow have had a woman raped, you make it sound like it was organised and ratified by the camp. Kick the rapist off.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

.

Do you support the Red Army's repulsion of Nazi forces in WW2? I'm sure there was mass rape that went on there.

Obviously, my point isn't to demean rape at all, merely to point out that just because a rape took place on an occupy site (And it should be thoroughly condemned and investigated), doesn't really follow that the entire Occupy movement in the UK isn't worth supporting.

I mean, what else are you doing to forward the class struggle?

[Sam_b]

I mean, what else are you doing to forward the class struggle?

Yeah because that huge strike next Wednesday isn't happening and the Occupy Movement is obviously the only thing going around.

-

Youse are all dumb, dumb dumb. Comparing a camp in which it has over the last few weeks been blatantly obvious is unsafe for vulnerable people is not the same as a WW2 scenario. For the record, I don't take any sides in imperialist wars except the side of the class, so it is bizarre you'd say all these in the assumption that I hold the flawed view of the red Army being supposed 'victors against fascism'.

You've obviously generalised and not looked into it so i'm going to repost the Glasgow Women's Activist Forum Open Letter, of which I support:

---

We, the undersigned, are writing to those involved in the Occupy Glasgow protest because our voices have hitherto been marginalised and our concerns systematically ignored in the days following the rape that occurred at the protest on Tuesday.
Our decision to write this letter is not based on political or ideological rejections of the Occupy movement, but is motivated by a very real concern for the physical and emotional well-being of all those involved in Occupy Glasgow, with specific concern for women and vulnerable people.
We believe that those involved in the protest failed to ensure the safety of its participants. The safety of the most vulnerable amongst us must be paramount in any organisation or movement, and a failure to construct and implement a system which ensures the safety of all its participants constitutes a failure of the movement as a whole.
In light of the gang rape that took place on Tuesday, we condemn the decision to continue with the occupation. Not only does the rape itself constitute reason enough to end the protest, but the reaction in the days which have followed has only convinced us further.
Allowing rape apology, victim blaming, and accusations of ‘fabrication’ or ‘conspiracy to bring the occupation to and end’ to be voiced in statements both on the official Occupy Glasgow facebook page and at General Assemblies without question demonstrates a complete failure of those involved to grasp the severity of the incident.
There has been insufficient effort to make necessary changes to the physical space or the safer spaces policy following the attack.
Women remain at high risk at Occupy Glasgow, and openly voiced this at the women’s meeting on Friday 28th October. Prior to Tuesday, verbal and physical intimidation had been reported by occupiers to the group, yet these issues were not addressed.
Our decision to write an open letter followed attempts to reach out to Occupy Glasgow by attending General Assemblies. However, women who have attended meetings and facilitated workshops have experienced verbal and physical intimidation from occupiers, leaving us no option but to make this official appeal to the women of Occupy Glasgow to take our concerns seriously.
We consider this matter urgent, and cannot stress enough that this appeal is motivated purely by our desire to create safe spaces for women not just within activist movements, but everywhere in society.

[Rainsborough]

You know what saddens me the most comrades is that on another thread we have a discussion of the development of the 'Occupy' movement in the States, to its full potential. Yet what do we have here in Britain, the whole Occupy situation condemned because of a refusal by one group to take immediate action in answer to a rape. Remember comrades the 99% that the occupy crowd advertise, contains all manner of nastiness.

Surely its time to discuss what it can be, rather than what it can't?

[Manic Impressive]

The difference between occupy U.S.A and occupy U.K. is that in the US it is the primary protest movement. It's the only significant thing they have and the first sign of working class action. Whereas we've been building since Milbank, we've had loads of marches and the riots which are all part of a wider movement of social unrest. Occupy has breathed a little bit of life into the movement at a time when it was stagnating following the conservative backlash of the riots, so we should be pleased about that, but at the same time it should not be viewed as separate from the rest of the protest movement. I don't think this is anywhere near a revolutionary movement and a few of the comments I've heard here and elsewhere concerning occupy turning into a revolution has made me chuckle. The best we can hope for is that it helps to spread a bit of class conciousness and gets people interested in proper socialism. The SPGB has been down at St. Pauls every Sunday leafleting but those who have come down to HQ have all been conspiracy orientated which means me having to bite my lip while explaining to them as nicely as I can how and why they're wrong.

[bricolage]

I tend to agree with Manic Impressive. I think Devrim had it right in another thread when he wrote that the occupy movement gets attention beyond what would be expected because it's in America, the only geopolitical superpower in the world and country that has been severely lacking class struggle as of late. The level of struggle in the UK is also abysmally low but there have been things going on, students smashing up government party headquarters, electricians blocking roads across the capital, southampton on a prolonged public sector strike, open rioting against police and business in August, several 100,000 out on June 30th, 500,000 marching on March 26, 3-4 million on strike next Wednesday...

In Greece the occupy movement quickly faded when the general strike re-emerged, an indicator of where social forces lie, and in America the only occupy movement that appears to have much going for it, Oakland, built on existing social revolt (ie. longshoremen) and gained relevance when it called for the general strike. Occupations make sense as a result of struggle, workers in strike occupying factories, students fighting fees occupying lecture theatres, local residents protesting council cuts occupying council buildings. I just think a lot of this has started in reserve and gone for occupy occupy occupy as a starting point without thinking of what the purpose of this is going to be. Hence it all becomes about holding the space yet not so much about what the space is actually for. In Egypt there were many strikes, often wildcats, in the years leading up to Tahrir square and it didn't just come out of nowhere. This is what I think we need to be looking at.

I don't think people should ignore the occupations but there are definitely others indicators of struggle beyond them.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I think that's a very fair post, Manic.

[Angry Young Man]

I think it's well worth pointing out that supporting the 30/11 strike is in Occupy Bristol's manifesto. Along with this, there were five on a CWU picket a week ago.

Occupy Glasgow was ill-equipped to prevent a rape because it didn't expect one. A fiver says they're taking measures to stop that kind of thing happening again.

[Angry Young Man]

For the record, I don't take any sides in imperialist wars except the side of the class,

Which was transitionally the allies in WWII. Unless you put all opponents on an equal scale.

[Rainsborough]

Occupy Glasgow was ill-equipped to prevent a rape because it didn't expect one. A fiver says they're taking measures to stop that kind of thing happening again.

If so perhaps they would care to make a statement to inform us of such?

[Rainsborough]

Slightly off topic, but within the same context.


Pension deal 'may be withdrawn' if no agreement reached

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15901447

So the government is warning that if the unions carry on with strike action, the 'generous' pension offer that is on the table will be withdrawn. :rolleyes:
Better make sure this strike is a success, because if the government bring in their new anti-strike measures, it could be the last.