The Black Bloc

[craigd89]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86XhCwHhwn8&feature=channel_video_title

whywhywhy do "anarchists" think smashing the window of whole foods is productive in any way?

[Tablo]

If nothing else it's fun.

Fuck Whole Foods.

[Agathor]

There is an inveterate tendency within Anarchism towards violent and meaningless behaviour, and the Black Block is a modern incarnation of it. This goes back to the Propaganda of the Deed and people like Leon Czolgosz. I think these people tarnish what should be a noble legacy. I want people to associate Anarchism with the Noam Chomsky, Joe Hill strain, not the pricks who smash windows and delight Daily Mail editors at G20 protests. I suspect these people are inspired more by Black Flag and Against Me than Bakunin or Kropotkin.

[Leftsolidarity]

I dress in Black Bloc even if I'm not doing any of the pointless vandalism just to protect the identity of those who choose to do so. Even if it is fucking stupid I don't want them going to the pigs.

[Lynx]

Some of those Black Bloc are undercover cops. When I see them damaging property in front of cameras with no police interference, I can't help but be suspicious. When the police do crack down the BB are nowhere to be found.

[bcbm]

There is an inveterate tendency within Anarchism towards violent and meaningless behaviour, and the Black Block is a modern incarnation of it. This goes back to the Propaganda of the Deed and people like Leon Czolgosz.

i guess you could call it 'meaningless' if you've never bothered to read anything by those who support it. anarchism and violence have always gone hand in hand, it is a revolutionary theory after all, and while some support it more than others it is nonsense to separate some like czolgosz from, say, emma goldman.


I suspect these people are inspired more by Black Flag and Against Me than Bakunin or Kropotkin.

bakunin, the man who spent much of his life in jail or exile for participation in a variety of uprisings and insurrections?

[La Comédie Noire]

I've never heard a sufficiently good reason for why people do it.I think it's more of an emotional thing, an expression of an anti property sentiment, rather than a rational strategy with an end goal in mind.

Not to mention while the black bloc may have a homogeneous appearance, that is the point after all, it is usually an alliance of different ideas, including your random dude who just wants to fuck things up.

[Ernesto Che Makuc]

wrong post sorry

[Ernesto Che Makuc]

oIy7HcwVK3E

[Threetune]

If nothing else it's fun.

Fuck Whole Foods.

So is throwing anarchist provocateurs out of workers organisations.The Thick Black Block don’t even have the brains to liberate food supplies for poor and workers families.

[Commissar Rykov]

Why are people crying over the attack of a company that said they would fire employees if they joined in the General Strike? How very, very odd.

[Threetune]

Why are people crying over the attack of a company that said they would fire employees if they joined in the General Strike? How very, very odd.

So why did the Thick Black Block or other ‘lefts’ not target the place for some serious requisitioning?

[Ele'ill]

Heavy atmosphere of solidarity there in that video. It didn't seem like this was quite the same old property destruction/black bloc distraction we normally see.

[Commissar Rykov]

So why did the Thick Black Block or other ‘lefts’ not target the place for some serious requisitioning?
I have no clue you should ask them and not me. I have no problem with them completely smashing the place to pieces though I agree with you they might as well have seized food as well and distributed it amongst the community.

[Agathor]

i guess you could call it 'meaningless' if you've never bothered to read anything by those who support it. anarchism and violence have always gone hand in hand, it is a revolutionary theory after all, and while some support it more than others it is nonsense to separate some like czolgosz from, say, emma goldman.



bakunin, the man who spent much of his life in jail or exile for participation in a variety of uprisings and insurrections?

You think the insurrections of 48-51 are comparable to the G20 and WTO protests?

Oh dear.

[craigd89]

Why are people crying over the attack of a company that said they would fire employees if they joined in the General Strike? How very, very odd.
I could care less about whole foods getting smashed up, What I care about is how fucking stupid they look for doing it, all they do is play right into the hands of the media. This shit is counter productive.

[Tablo]

I could care less about whole foods getting smashed up, What I care about is how fucking stupid they look for doing it, all they do is play right into the hands of the media. This shit is counter productive.
Why does it matter what the media says? They have been talking shit about the movement from their very first reports on it. I don't see how this changes anything.

[Dunk]

Let's get real. The destruction of windows and painting on private property is not violence. Ramming your body into people while screaming "Non-violence!" is violence. There is understanding throughout the crowd that yes, Whole Foods threatened to fire their employees for participating in the strike - so why not smash up and deface their means of oppression?

On the other hand, I think there may be something more to our class's disapproval of smashing shit than simply the agenda-setting of the ruling class. It's the ruling class that's responsible for the greatest acts of destruction - that utterly eclipse anything the Black Bloc is capable of; they have absolutely no problem with destroying life, lives, and leveling communities, but have a problem with the destruction of their shit. I think our class values creation, because our class is responsible for creating everything. I think the ruling class exploits this when they show a clip of the Black Bloc smashing up a window, because how is some worker on the other side of the planet or the country supposed to know that Whole Foods threatened to fire their employees? They only see the act of destruction, and can't comprehend the purpose behind it because it's hidden or ignored by the bourgeois press.

It's in this sense that I have absolutely no problem with smashing windows or painting "Strike" on the side of buildings. It's just that I won't do it because it's too easy for the ruling class to exploit it. But you won't ever catch me crashing my body or threatening those who do.

[No_Leaders]

Kudos to them! Although i don't necessarily agree with Black Bloc tactics all the time, especially petty property destruction. They're still anarchist comrades, and i was suprised seeing the type of actions going on in Oakland. Usually it's so small scale here in the states. i saw video when the police and protestors skirmished, you actually had anarchists throwing rocks and other projectiles back at the cops amidst the burning dumpsters, and exploding tear gas and flash bangs. That is something i'm use to seeing done by anarchists in Greece, France, Germany, Italy, etc. Hell the fact that this occupy oakland turned into a General Strike, definitely shows this is heading in a more militant direction. I seriously never thought it would turn into what it is thus far.

[Threetune]

Kudos to them! Although i don't necessarily agree with Black Bloc tactics all the time, especially petty property destruction. They're still anarchist comrades, and i was suprised seeing the type of actions going on in Oakland. Usually it's so small scale here in the states. i saw video when the police and protestors skirmished, you actually had anarchists throwing rocks and other projectiles back at the cops amidst the burning dumpsters, and exploding tear gas and flash bangs. That is something i'm use to seeing done by anarchists in Greece, France, Germany, Italy, etc. Hell the fact that this occupy oakland turned into a General Strike, definitely shows this is heading in a more militant direction. I seriously never thought it would turn into what it is thus far.

That’s because you haven’t grasped Leninist revolutionary theory, yet.

How much more powerful an image (if it were televised???) around the world of expropriations of food and other goods for poor families.

Time to stop “protesting” and “demonstrating”, time to start taking over whatever can be taken over. It’s the ‘state’ that needs smashing not the food depots.

[No_Leaders]

That’s because you haven’t grasped Leninist revolutionary theory, yet.

How much more powerful an image (if it were televised???) around the world of expropriations of food and other goods for poor families.

Time to stop “protesting” and “demonstrating”, time to start taking over whatever can be taken over. It’s the ‘state’ that needs smashing not the food depots.



I completely agree. I think if that was done rather than smashing up the store it would have been much more powerful rather than being something alienating as in most cases of property desctruction. People do need to smash the state as the saying goes. I think occupations of the work places would be great.

[Os Cangaceiros]

You think the insurrections of 48-51 are comparable to the G20 and WTO protests?

Oh dear.

I don't think that was his point.

Both Bakunin and Kropotkin were involved in illegal circles, involved in criminal activities, and both at different points in their lives advocated violence as a useful tactic to bring about revolutionary change. Either their world was so completely different from our own, and therefore nothing of value can be ascertained about their tactical endorsements regarding violence (making your point about black blocers not paying attention to them somewhat meaningless), or there is a basic principle that extends all the way from 1850 to the present day, in regards to violence as a potential tool at our disposal.

That's not to say that the black bloc is some great thing that has to be recreated at every single goddamn demonstration, as some people unfortunately seem to think. Sometimes violence is inappropriate. But violence and strikes have often gone hand in hand. If you operated a store on a strike day in, say, 1934 Minneapolis, you were liable to get every window of your store smashed out. There was a strike in my town among fishermen/cannery workers in 2002, and some guy went out fishing anyway, essentially crossing a picket line (although it's hard to enforce one on the open ocean). He came back the next day to find his boat vandalized and all his gear cut to pieces. That's just the way things work, Whole Foods got what it deserved, I just feel bad for whoever has to clean it up.

[Agathor]

I don't think that was his point.

Both Bakunin and Kropotkin were involved in illegal circles, involved in criminal activities, and both at different points in their lives advocated violence as a useful tactic to bring about revolutionary change. Either their world was so completely different from our own, and therefore nothing of value can be ascertained about their tactical endorsements regarding violence (making your point about black blocers not paying attention to them somewhat meaningless), or there is a basic principle that extends all the way from 1850 to the present day, in regards to violence as a potential tool at our disposal.

That's not to say that the black bloc is some great thing that has to be recreated at every single goddamn demonstration, as some people unfortunately seem to think. Sometimes violence is inappropriate. But violence and strikes have often gone hand in hand. If you operated a store on a strike day in, say, 1934 Minneapolis, you were liable to get every window of your store smashed out. There was a strike in my town among fishermen/cannery workers in 2002, and some guy went out fishing anyway, essentially crossing a picket line (although it's hard to enforce one on the open ocean). He came back the next day to find his boat vandalized and all his gear cut to pieces. That's just the way things work, Whole Foods got what it deserved, I just feel bad for whoever has to clean it up.

I'm not opposed to violence. I'm opposed to futile violence. I would like to meet somebody who thinks that the sort of violence that the Black Block engages in has anything other than a cathartic utility. The sort of violence that Kropotkin and Bakunin advocated was insurrectionist. This stuff is just vandalism.

I agree that there is meaningless violence at every large strike, protest and revolution. The point I'm making is that it would be preferable if there wasn't.

Put it this way: I'm sick of being embarrassed of my political tendency every time there's a big protest.

[NormalG]

Damaging property isnt violence. I just don't see how that helped the movement though--cleaning up is coming from the people not the wealthy whole foods. and like stated I would totally agree with the vandalism if there was occupation of whole foods and distribution of all of their food . But Im much interested in the next step of the occupy -- OCCUPY BUILDINGS. The occupying of the building last night brought more repression than any of the black bloc vandalism, of course. Assuming they weren't undercovers.

[tir1944]

Damaging property isnt violence.Yeah it is,because there's often people inside,just to name one thing...:rolleyes:
Also + points for "buildings" which could mean pretty much everything,from homes to offices....

[o well this is ok I guess]

Protip: When a black bloc throws a dumpster through a starbucks, it's not because of some elaborate foucaldian insurrectionist theory.
It's because it's hella fun.

[black magick hustla]

i dont get why people get make a big deal of property destruction unless the owner was your uncle or some shit. i thought it was great than in occupy oakland they defaced fucking whole foods with a big strike graffitti and smashed their windows. fuck whole foods i hate whole foods and the people that buy in it, and i hate the fact that people who are probably "progressive" buy shit there but whole foods has horrible labor practices

[o well this is ok I guess]

i dont get why people get make a big deal of property destruction unless the owner was your uncle or some shit. i thought it was great than in occupy oakland they defaced fucking whole foods with a big strike graffitti and smashed their windows. fuck whole foods i hate whole foods and the people that buy in it, and i hate the fact that people who are probably "progressive" buy shit there but whole foods has horrible labor practices On the plus side, they're one of the only supermarkets around that don't use trash compactors

[What Would Durruti Do?]

Unite Windows of the world, for working glass liberation! Throw off the chains of human aggression!

oh revleft

[thälmann]

i think black bloc has a different meaning in different countries. in some its mask people running around destroying property isolated from the masses. in germany for example its just beeing masked and ready to protect against police violence. this kind of blocs include different leftists, not only anarchists. but mostly autonomous, which in germany can be everything.

[Nox]

Can someone who's opposed to destroying private property please explain what is wrong with doing it?

[coda]

<< just beeing masked and ready to protect against police violence. this kind of blocs include different leftists, not only anarchists. but mostly autonomous, which in germany can be everything.>.

That's what a black bloc is in North America too. It's associated with Anarchism as it originated with them. The Black Bloc has taken the brunt of police brutality in the major protests here in the US.(and elsewhere). It's too bad that the rest of the Left are always ready to sell them up the river for a broken store front or solitary fire or whatever. The Black Bloc has always stood as a first line in defense against armed Pigs going after unarmed working class...

[Threetune]

<< just beeing masked and ready to protect against police violence. this kind of blocs include different leftists, not only anarchists. but mostly autonomous, which in germany can be everything.>.

That's what a black bloc is in North America too. It's associated with Anarchism as it originated with them. The Black Bloc has taken the brunt of police brutality in the major protests here in the US.(and elsewhere). It's too bad that the rest of the Left are always ready to sell them up the river for a broken store front or solitary fire or whatever. The Black Bloc has always stood as a first line in defense against armed Pigs going after unarmed working class...

Well “the Left” can speak for themselves about “always ready to sell them (Black Block) up the river”, but as with other imperialist targets, Leninism never joins in the “condemnation” and grassing up unlike many ‘lefts’ including anarchists recently who were only too willing to join in imperialism’s propaganda assault on Libya. The inconsistency is glaring and whingeing about each other is just the purest hypocrisy.

However, if these haters of fenestration are among us on street confrontations with the state, they are going to be challenged and asked some pointed questions, like, why the fuck can’t you stupid pricks think of something a bit more useful for the working class like occupying property and redistributing products to satisfy need?

[craigd89]

Can someone who's opposed to destroying private property please explain what is wrong with doing it?
I'm not opposed to the actual act of vandalism, I'm opposed because all it does is alienate people. What does smashing the window of whole foods benefit in the long run?, sure it was fun at the time, but how will it help the movement as a whole?

[bcbm]

So is throwing anarchist provocateurs out of workers organisations.The Thick Black Block don’t even have the brains to liberate food supplies for poor and workers families.

actually this has happened in some places. greece and germany off the top of my head, probably others.


You think the insurrections of 48-51 are comparable to the G20 and WTO protests?

Oh dear.

no but i think condemning 'violence in anarchism' and then citing someone who theorized and participated in quite a bit of it is asinine, as is saying that violent actions at the g20 and wto are 'meaningless' when there is a wealth of information explaining the rationale behind it.



Put it this way: I'm sick of being embarrassed of my political tendency every time there's a big protest.

i think the anarchist movement in the states owes a large part of its existence to the wave of summit violence in the early 00's. both for the media exposure and for the large amount of cross country organizing involved.


The destruction of windows . . . is not violence.

of course it is, but who cares?


On the plus side, they're one of the only supermarkets around that don't use trash compactors

they do here.


I'm opposed because all it does is alienate people

in all circumstances? not really.

[craigd89]

actually this has happened in some places. greece and germany off the top of my head, probably others.



no but i think condemning 'violence in anarchism' and then citing someone who theorized and participated in quite a bit of it is asinine, as is saying that violent actions at the g20 and wto are 'meaningless' when there is a wealth of information explaining the rationale behind it.



i think the anarchist movement in the states owes a large part of its existence to the wave of summit violence in the early 00's. both for the media exposure and for the large amount of cross country organizing involved.



of course it is, but who cares?



they do here.



in all circumstances? not really.
I never said in all circumstances, but in this case it does. Do you realize 'propaganda' is half the battle? What do you think the average worker sees when they see a bunch of kids dressed in black smashing windows?.. Their minds shut off, they don't care. Like I said I'm not opposed to property destruction for moral reasons, it's more for practical reasons.

[craigd89]

When it comes down to it, instead of dressing in black at Occupy events. Would it not be more effective to actually educate attendees and work towards building organization?

[bcbm]

I never said in all circumstances, but in this case it does.

evidence?


Do you realize 'propaganda' is half the battle? What do you think the average worker sees when they see a bunch of kids dressed in black smashing windows?.. Their minds shut off, they don't care. Like I said I'm not opposed to property destruction for moral reasons, it's more for practical reasons.

your attitude is pretty patronizing. if my/my friend/family member's house got foreclosed on by bank of america or they had overcharged me or whatever even i'd be pretty stoked to see them getting theirs. i don't think 'workers' are a homogeneous mass who have one opinion.

[bcbm]

When it comes down to it, instead of dressing in black at Occupy events. Would it not be more effective to actually educate attendees and work towards building organization?

anarchists have been a major part of organizing the occupy protests from the get go and this is especially true in oakland from what i understand.

[bcbm]

thoughtful critique (http://anarchistnews.org/node/16910)

[miloacademy]

nice one.

[coda]

<<However, if these haters of fenestration are among us on street confrontations with the state, they are going to be challenged and asked some pointed questions, like, why the fuck can’t you stupid pricks think of something a bit more useful for the working class like occupying property and redistributing products to satisfy need>>


Anarchists DO occupy property and redistribute products to satisfy need!! (And I might add sustains it during the off-seasons of street conflicts & demonstrations). Ever hear of the Squatting movement and Food Not Bombs????- among the dozens of other actions and programs Anarchists have built in community solidarity with the working class and poor that operates outside the capitalist framework and ruling class. (if you want a list of programs, I'll be happy to provide them for you.)

So quick to defame your Leftist allies for their anti-capitalist direct actions. maybe you'd feel better--i.e. easing your constipation by taking a humungous shit --if you'd break with moral bourgeoisie decorum and send a rock and swift message through a Capitalist storefront. DO it. DO it. DO It. Do It. Do It!
Down with Fenestration!! Ha!! what a word -- only a Leninist....

[Os Cangaceiros]

thoughtful critique (http://anarchistnews.org/node/16910)

That is a good article. I was actually thinking about posting it here myself.

[Agathor]

i think condemning 'violence in anarchism'..
Never said it. Read more carefully.

[Fawkes]

As far as people accusing black blocs of being composed of police provocateurs based off the fact that the police were nowhere in sight (I don't know if anyone in this thread has claimed this, but it's a common refrain here and other places), perhaps it's at least partially due to the fact that a group of aggressively militant and masked individuals is a bit harder to attack/contain than a group of peace sign-waving pacifists. Also, people in black blocs typically want to cause maximum disruption by not getting arrested, therefore they evade the police rather than sit in front of them and yell "the whole world is watching" and "shame" like a bunch of naive rich kids.


Also, just a side note, could people stop capitalizing "black bloc"? It's a tactic, not an organization like far too many people outside of the left seem to think.

[Ocean Seal]

Why are people crying over the attack of a company that said they would fire employees if they joined in the General Strike? How very, very odd.
An important point. We shouldn't cry over broken windows or how unproductive that was. In doing so we alienate our fellow militant workers, and we give the bourgeois media a leg to stand on. Its unnecessary, and we don't gain anything other than contributing to bourgeois political hegemony. What we have to do is show the people comparisons of how damaging militarism, imperialism, and capitalism are compared to what was smashed. We need to show them that the working class is lashing out in a disorganized fashion because capitalism is not sufficiently good.

[What Would Durruti Do?]

I'm not opposed to the actual act of vandalism, I'm opposed because all it does is alienate people. What does smashing the window of whole foods benefit in the long run?, sure it was fun at the time, but how will it help the movement as a whole?

You mean the pro-capitalist liberal OWS movement? You're right it doesn't help that movement at all, but I'm not sure why any anti-capitalist would want to help it.

[thriller]

Fuck Whole Foods, as many others said. I don't see any problem with what they did. Too bad if it may not play into someone's perfect idea of what revolution should look like, it never will. Protests are an act of the masses coming together, which include those how like to fuck shit up for many different reasons. As far as the media goes, they will never portray us as good. Might as well act out in defiance rather than complain about how even when we are peaceful they still hate us. Look at the Wisconsin protests. Not one act of property damage but the news was so concerned with us putting signs up on the walls of the Capitol. The upper class will always find a way to shit on our parade.

[Dragonaut]

You mean the pro-capitalist liberal OWS movement? You're right it doesn't help that movement at all, but I'm not sure why any anti-capitalist would want to help it.

Are you serious? OWS may not be a "Marxist/anarchist uprising" like the idiot right wing pundits have described it, but if you've seen any footage of the demonstrations you'll know that the revolutionary left make their presence heard. I also don't think it's right to label the entire movement "liberal". I'm not going to wait my whole life for a perfect 100% revolutionary mass movement to magically appear. This isn't an ideological movement, it's a movement of common people, and it just so happens that there are far more people who are reformist than revolutionary. This doesn't mean we should reject them, we should educate them and use this movement to get our voices heard.

[bcbm]

Never said it. Read more carefully.

was referring to my initial comment which was referring to the op, try to keep up before trying to be a smartass.

[Threetune]

Anarchist heroes?“
"I want people to march on the police. I want them to engage in significant and strategic property destruction, I want them to march on the police station, I want them to show the riot cops that they are not afraid, but I do not want them to do these things at the expense of the truly marginalized.
That is what I saw happen last night, and it has made me incandescent with rage.”

“…saw black bloc kids running from the camp while it was under police assault, and as someone who spent about two hours negotiating and assisting in the care of an ostensibly homeless man from the camp, hit by a rubber bullet in the camp, while black bloc kids ran away to their safe homes and made comments like "at least we crushed the place" and "we'll just take it back," I want those kids to be held accountable to the damage that they did, damage made possible by their class and race privilege.”

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2011/11/04/18697383.php?show_comments=1#18697392 (http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2011/11/04/18697383.php?show_comments=1#18697392)

[bcbm]

yeah thats pretty whack

[Threetune]

yeah thats pretty whack

yeah and you posted the site it came from, of which, more later. But answer the man if you can.

[bcbm]

how can i answer for a group of people i am not a part of?

http://sexgenderbody.tumblr.com/post/12318837479/an-open-letter-to-the-black-bloc-brigades-occupy

[Threetune]

how can i answer for a group of people i am not a part of?

http://sexgenderbody.tumblr.com/post/12318837479/an-open-letter-to-the-black-bloc-brigades-occupy

I didn’t ask that you “answer for a group of people i am not a part of” . I asked you to answer the man who (as a bit of an anarchist) was attacking the ‘black block’.

You answered with someone else’s a black nationalist speech as a diversion justification for your original shit reformist post thoughtful critique (http://www.anonym.to/?http://anarchistnews.org/node/16910). Which says that anarchists should:

“Think about smaller, reachable goals that coalesce into a broader social transformation”

And

“5.) When we want to it to be really obvious that what we’re doing is the work of anarchists. For better or for worse, the public perception of anarchists in this country comes through media portrayals of the black block. Fortunately we can use this to our advantage in surprising ways by branding unexpected actions with the anarchist moniker. Anarchist school lunch programs? Anarchist basketball teams? (they did it in Eugene OR ten years ago and challenged the police team!)"

"The black block is an established global cultural meme. We can use it in whatever way we want.”

Pure fucking reformist opportunism.

[coda]

<< "I want those kids to be held accountable to the damage that they did, damage made possible by their class and race privilege.">>>

When I was growing up in the 70's-80's that person would be considered a NARC and completely ostracized among their peers!!

So, was it to be suggested, Threetune -- that all "kids" be removed from participating in revolutionary struggle? Only the "grown up" kids are allowed to participate? What happens to the adults who engage in property sabotage and the launching of Molotov Cocktails-- do they also need to be sidelined? What about if they're old enough to be your parents and thinks that anybody who went to college is privileged and anyone who grew up with dvd and a cell phone is a spoiled bourgeoisie brat? See how that works?

[bcbm]

I didn’t ask that you “answer for a group of people i am not a part of” . I asked you to answer the man who (as a bit of an anarchist) was attacking the ‘black block’.

he was saying a specific group of people ran away instead of challenging the cops. i think thats whack. what am i supposed to answer to?


You answered with someone else’s a black nationalist speech as a diversion justification for your original shit reformist post thoughtful critique (http://www.anonym.to/?http://anarchistnews.org/node/16910).

i posted that link as part of the ongoing conversation over this not as a diversion or justification of anything.


Which says that anarchists should:

“Think about smaller, reachable goals that coalesce into a broader social transformation”

And

“5.) When we want to it to be really obvious that what we’re doing is the work of anarchists. For better or for worse, the public perception of anarchists in this country comes through media portrayals of the black block. Fortunately we can use this to our advantage in surprising ways by branding unexpected actions with the anarchist moniker. Anarchist school lunch programs? Anarchist basketball teams? (they did it in Eugene OR ten years ago and challenged the police team!)"

"The black block is an established global cultural meme. We can use it in whatever way we want.”

Pure fucking reformist opportunism.

i thought parts of the critique were more thoughtful than the cascade of same-old arguments, not that it was pure gold.

[Threetune]

The anarchists ran away! That’s the report.

Not heroes as there anarchistic propaganda claims.

What else would you expect from middle class youth whose only grasp of revolution is ‘V For Ve

“…saw black bloc kids running from the camp while it was under police assault, and as someone who spent about two hours negotiating and assisting in the care of an ostensibly homeless man from the camp, hit by a rubber bullet in the camp, while black bloc kids ran away to their safe homes and made comments like "at least we crushed the place" and "we'll just take it back," I want those kids to be held accountable to the damage that they did, damage made possible by their class and race privilege.”
‘V For Vendetta’ or Zoro

[coda]

<<<The anarchists ran away! That’s the report. Not heroes as there anarchistic propaganda claims. What else would you expect from middle class youth whose only grasp of revolution is ‘V For

“…saw black bloc kids running from the camp while it was under police assault, and as someone who spent about two hours negotiating and assisting in the care of an ostensibly homeless man from the camp, hit by a rubber bullet in the camp, while black bloc kids ran away to their safe homes and made comments like "at least we crushed the place" and "we'll just take it back," I want those kids to be held accountable to the damage that they did, damage made possible by their class and race privilege.”
‘V For Vendetta’ or Zoro>>>

Well, what can be said... rebellious youth will be rebellious youth for setting up a barricade. I'm not the anarchist spokesperson here but will be so when they are getting endlessly scapegoated (as usual) whenever something goes wrong at a street demonstration.

Everybody is acting cohesively here in occupy NY as far as my knowledge.. can't speak for the internal issues anywhere else. either way.. you've linked up to reports from Oakland where there has been days of full force police brutality against the protesters including a protester who has been hospitalized from getting his head bashed in with a tear gas container by a cop. So, this 'street medic" reports that she was treating someone for a rubber bullet injury, due to obvious police brutality, but yet can only gripe about the 'anarchists/black bloc setting up a barricade' which appeared to be just for a "glamourshot photo opportunity" (of course!) and then taking off when the cops came--(of course people run in the opposite direction of tear gas and rubber bullets) but she doesn't seem to have too much of a problem at all with the cops and their brutality against unarmed protesters and their creating an unsafe and violent situation--- or at least not enough to sum up outrage to use that written space to denounce the fuckers who should be called out, accountable, disarmed and locked up for assault and battery.

that would be The Pigs if you don't get my drift...

[Lynx]

Are we supposed to think highly of anonymous "anarchists" who run away while ordinary protesters get clubbed and tear-gassed?
They are of no help to anyone.

[coda]

<<Are we supposed to think highly of anonymous "anarchists" who run away while ordinary protesters get clubbed and tear-gassed. They are of no help to anyone.>>

Well you know.. It's unfortunate for anyone to get caught in the cross hairs. I think one of the objectives is to avoid that.. so, that would explain why the anarchists "ran away". It is in each protesters best interest that they learn techniques or get activist training to defend themselves on street demonstrations when the state comes out for blood as per the Miami Model... as a rule, there is rarely large peaceful protests any more and at that moment the shit hits the fan and everything erupts into chaos-- it's unlikely some bystander is going to be able to rescue you when he's trying to defend himself against the onslaught, too. As for the black bloc they always work out their escape plans routes in advance to avoid injury and police interrogation. Injury and interrogation are not helpful to anyone either. == The police are the enemy == Anyway.. this anarchist vs. communist is pretty old and lame and playing right into the enemies hands.

Remember Carlo Giuliani, 10-years -- murdered by the state at G-8 anti-capitalist protests, Genoa
sequence of photos:
http://www.nadir.org/nadir/initiativ/agp/free/genova/pics3a.htm

[Agent Equality]

this anarchist vs. communist is pretty old and lame and playing right into the enemies hands.

Amen. Whenever I see "communists" denouncing anarchists it makes me both laugh and cringe at the stupidity of it.

[coda]

<<Amen. Whenever I see "communists" denouncing anarchists it makes me both laugh and cringe at the stupidity of it>>

me too! and to have to defend a resistance action against communist's repression makes me feel sa-lee-zey and disgusting!

just want to elaborate on my other comment..as there seems to be a misunderstanding. The black bloc forms voluntarily on the day of protest. Anarchists aren't obligated to participate by definition of or identification with being an Anarchist... nor are they communist's personal security guards or human shields, either. they have the right to defend themselves and step out of the front line of assault--- especially if they're fucking little kids!! Oh, the irony. The street medic's report seems to assume otherwise.

[The Insurrection]

It's interesting to see all the Marxists come out and defend the petite-bourgeoisie.

[Threetune]

It's interesting to see all the Marxists come out and defend the petite-bourgeoisie.

Interesting to see that the anarchists are the petite-bourgeoisie.
Is everyone really saying that they see no contradiction between the self congratulatory article so admired on here, full of fantasy bragging about being defender “heroes” of the people, and the open letter on the same site that speaks of the exact opposite?

Has no one else noticed that the piece is shot through with middle class reformism and is nowhere making any revolutionary conclusions about the main event, a fucking huge strike that closed the docks.?! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2N593Tg494 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2N593Tg494)

“First things first, I just want to say. I am proud of us.”

“There is the potential to become a symbol for public discontent. When everyone else is afraid to act, but it’s clear that something has to happen.
3.) If other groups are looking for us to protect them. when being hindered by police violence, but where people are for some reason unable or unwilling to confront this, anarchist groups have often been asked to protect peaceful protest. This could be elderly people, illegal immigrants or just those who are afraid or unfamiliar with street tactics. In these circumstances we can be heroes who, by engaging with cops, make sure that others are safe to dissent more peacefully.”
thoughtful critique (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://anarchistnews.org/node/16910).

[The Insurrection]

Interesting to see that the anarchists are the petite-bourgeoisie.

That doesn't really make any sense. Are you saying that the people who were in those black blocs are all small business owners?

[Sasha]

Are we supposed to think highly of anonymous "anarchists" who run away while ordinary protesters get clubbed and tear-gassed?
They are of no help to anyone.


do i need to think highly of sign waving peace nicks who link arms and scream the whole world is watching while getting their brain smashed in a futile attempt to get a sympathetic media report and a empty police violence condemnation from the dems?
they are of no help to anyone.

yet i still stand in solidarity with them and their chosen tactics... they are not mine, i rather "advance in the opposite direction" if faced by an overwhelming force with superior weaponry and return regrouped in a way and time that we can set the conditions for a riot in which we at least have a fighting chance. i might not stay to get my head bashed in and get arrested but i would not chide people who make that different choice either.
to each their own...

[bricolage]

I think an important bit in that anarchist news piece was when it talked about dropping the all black, it's meant to kept anonymity and protect individuals from the police but if only a few people are wearing black it's easy to spot them (also people tend to 'customise' their black bloc so are probably easy to spot anyway). There is a massive difference between this;
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/Black_Bloc_Hamburg.jpg/300px-Black_Bloc_Hamburg.jpg

And most black blocs we see most days.

Most often I feel if people kept the smashy smashy but dropped the black it would seem less alien to a lot of people and do a lot more to bypass the spectator/participant binary relationship.

[Jimmie Higgins]

That doesn't really make any sense. Are you saying that the people who were in those black blocs are all small business owners?
No, I think he's saying just that individual acts like these as opposed to organizing collectively around class interests historically tends to be a strategy favored by the petite-bourgies. I think it's unfair to categorize all anarchists this way since many are syndicalists and/or do actively organize on a class rather than individual basis.

[coda]

<<Is everyone really saying that they see no contradiction between the self congratulatory article so admired on here, full of fantasy bragging about being defender “heroes” of the people, and the open letter on the same site that speaks of the exact opposite?>.

I apparently missed that letter, I've only seen the street medic's.. can you link it, please? ...

[Threetune]

here it is, sorry for the confusion.

thoughtful critique (http://www.anonym.to/?http://anarchistnews.org/node/16910)


Some thoughts inspired by the Oakland general strikeFirst things first, I just want to say. I am proud of us. We’ve been doing really fucking amazing behind the scenes work at this thing and it’s made me absolutely proud to be on the team. Fuck, we needed some victories huh? For a while it seemed like anarchist strategy in this country was something people did to make each other feel bad on the internet. Congrats for the hard work and hard thought put into making this thing all it could be.
That being said I do want to spark a conversation about the role of the black block, using events of the past few days as an example. The Occupy movement is exciting to people because it seems completely new. It’s just as much trying to break with protest-politics-as-usual as it is with politics-as-usual. Of course once the success of the thing became so clear every funny old leftist group came out of the woodwork to brand the fucking thing as theirs and work whatever dance they’ve been doing for the last fifteen years. The socialists sold us newspapers. The conscious hip-hoppers brought bad flows to share.
http://anarchistnews.org/files/pictures/2010/victory.jpg
Ken Knabb even came out with a leaflet quoting himself. Last but not least, the black blockers were out in force (an inspiring sight for sure) to smash up a couple of windows and fire up one of the most played out debates in protest history once more. The action was mixed bag for sure. Almost everyone cheered when chase bank window went down, but the actions a block later, as a small business window got smashed led to a fistfight! (maybe that one was the work of one of those agents provocateurs we’re always accused of being) At whole foods it became a giant shouting match between two groups of hundreds of people each. And I found myself screaming at the top of my lungs “they’re just fucking windows!!” somehow these two groups of people had gotten so obsessed with these windows that they were willing to create divisive debate and bad feelings through whole sections of a protest that is already showing itself to be the most substantial internal threat to American capitalism in forty years.
Is it always black block time? For me It’s not about whether black block, or the specific brand of minor protest violence it represents is “good or bad” it’s about whether or not it’s useful right now. The answer might be yes, but IF we aren’t thinking critically about our tactics then we’re…dumb.
Reasons to maybe not use this tactic this time.
1.)It isn’t likely to spread. If our goal is mass public resistance to capitalism in a direct and confrontational way, then spreading our tactics is paramount. The problem is, for most people, the black block is decidedly “other”. They aren’t familiar with it, it’s frightening looking and for all they know they have to be a card carrying member to join. Nobody has explained to them that anyone can be a part of it and even if they wanted to join they probably don’t happen to have a backpack full of goggles and hoodies with them. It pretty specifically doesn’t fit into the “easily reproducible tactics” category because it’s got so much prior prep work and understanding that needs to take place. People all over the world have riots, everyday, without black clothes, and while I understand that they are used partially to prevent law enforcement from busting us, another 1000 people rioting with us would probably be a much better legal shield, and a much more beautiful sight. Starting a riot in plainclothes, if you really feel like a riot is what we need right now, might be more initially dangerous, but much more likely to become something else.
2.)It’s too easy to be labeled as small, extremist faction. Not just by the media, but by other occupiers. The mass sabotage of the disposed gets reduced to the behavior a minority of bad eggs. Of course we can’t just pander to how everyone else would like us to behave and the peace police will probably try to beat us up anyways. But debates around property destruction will be easier to conduct if it doesn’t just come off as the actions of a small group who are willing to go against the wishes of a huge percentage of other protesters.
3.)The economic damage is minimal. Often times we break windows because we want to feel like “something is happening”. We don’t want to stand around waving signs and chanting while our world burns to a crisp. Yet in terms of impact on capitalism, all we did was create a market for more windows. At best we cost some giant corporations a few thousand dollars in repairs, a negligible expense for them. Shutting down the port of Oakland cost at least 8 million dollars in shipping. 8 million dollars of irrevocably lost capitalism. It’s funny to think that those sitting around having a drum circle in front of the port did massively more damage to the capitalist beast than anybody who went home after the smashing was done.
4.)Breaking a few windows is a symbolic action. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Actually symbolic actions are often the most important ones, as they have the potential to inspire others. But the question of course is: “is this the symbol that is useful right now?” The line between risking it all to show you’re pissed and having an infantile show of your power to fuck shit up is a small one. I’m not even talking about media portrayal, because obviously the media is here to make revolutionary movements look bad, but we didn’t need the media to do that, a good percentage of the other protesters were shouting us down! Once you accept the fact that we aren’t creating broken windows, you’re creating symbols for ourselves and others to interpret, a little thought might go into targets beyond who we (for valid reasons) are pissed at this week. If we are going to engage in this kind of stuff, bothering to explain ourselves could go a long way to making things easier. For example, most of the people present at the whole food smash-up didn’t know that the company threatened to fire workers who participated in the strike. A leaflet would have been really useful, though obviously it’s difficult to plan this stuff ahead of time.
5.)It might lead to “broken window-ism”. All too often I talk to comrades who feel like nothing has happened at an event unless some shit got fucked up. I think this is because there have been so few victories for us recently that it starts to become a symbol for something we actually accomplished. I’m going to point out the obvious, which is that even if we were able to break every single window in North America, capitalism won’t be abolished, in fact we’d probably make some asshole filthy rich off investing in glass futures. Anarchism, in whatever flavor you take it, is about a social transformation of the dispossessed. If this goes down, even partially, some things will get broken I’m sure, but that doesn’t mean that if we smash some crap up right now that we get any closer. Broaden your scope of what’s possible, what we are capable of. Don’t get sucked into the cults of violence OR non-violence. Think about smaller, reachable goals that coalesce into a broader social transformation.
6.) It’s exactly what everyone expects us to do.
Some circumstances that black block is probably really necessary
1.) You aren’t likely to be joined by passersby, you know the group of people willing to “throw down” is likely to remain small.
2.) Public anger and outrage is at an extreme high, while simultaneously, police surveillance and investigation are at a dangerous level. There is the potential to become a symbol for public discontent. When everyone else is afraid to act, but it’s clear that something has to happen.
3.) If other groups are looking for us to protect them. when being hindered by police violence, but where people are for some reason unable or unwilling to confront this, anarchist groups have often been asked to protect peaceful protest. This could be elderly people, illegal immigrants or just those who are afraid or unfamiliar with street tactics. In these circumstances we can be heroes who, by engaging with cops, make sure that others are safe to dissent more peacefully.
4.) Where we as a subculture are in direct confrontation with other groups. When the Nazis come to town. When the pigs come to evict the squats etc. When we aren’t talking about broad social transformation, but defending our communities, black block might be the best means of transforming ourselves into an effective street fighting force.
5.) When we want to it to be really obvious that what we’re doing is the work of anarchists. For better or for worse, the public perception of anarchists in this country comes through media portrayals of the black block. Fortunately we can use this to our advantage in surprising ways by branding unexpected actions with the anarchist moniker. Anarchist school lunch programs? Anarchist basketball teams?(they did it in Eugene OR ten years ago and challenged the police team!)The black block is an established global cultural meme. We can use it in whatever way we want.
Ok, well I might be wrong. But the point for me is
STRATEGICAL DISCOURSES NOT IDEOLOGICAL HIGH-HORSES

And here the medic’s report (open letter)

An Open Letter to the Black Bloc and Others Concerning Wednesday's Tactics in Oakland
by A Medic
Friday Nov 4th, 2011 10:35 AM

A statement concerning the occupation of the Traveler's Aid building after the Oakland General Strike, written from the perspective of a long-time street medic.
I am street medic, and I have been a street medic for over ten years at this point. I want to make crystal clear that while I may not identify formally and publicly as an anarchist, I would say that many, if not most of my values are anti-capitalist, anti-hierarchical and incorporate an anti-oppression framework. In accordance with those beliefs, I do not believe property destruction is violence. I also don't agree with the idea that cops can be provoked. I think using that term cedes ideological ground and legitimizes their behavior, inasmuch as they can justify their violence by saying they were provoked, or “forced” into action.

That being said, I have a huge problem with what I witnessed last night at 16th and Telegraph between about 11:30pm and 3:30 am.

My problem last night was not with the specific police/protester interactions. In fact, watching two hundred black bloc-ers marching on the riot cops as they staged was amazing and powerful. That sort of act I fully support, and it is part of why I medic, as I want those who are willing to undertake that sort of action to know that I have their back in a tangible way. I want people to understand that half the power the cops have over us is our own internalized fear of them, and that sort of behavior begins to dismantle that fear in a powerful way, and I fully support it. This I feel is very, very important.

My concern was with the ill-conceived tactics used to occupy the building, in that it looked like an anarchist glamorshot instead of a committed and revolutionary act to actually acquire and hold that space. I am tired of direct actions being done in a way that turns them into photo-ops and nothing else. I am tired of watching barricades be built only to be abandoned the minute the cops open fire. In addition, the crowd on 16th around the occupied building was terrifying far before the cops ever showed up. As a woman and queer person I wanted to get the fuck out of there almost immediately as it felt wildly unsafe on multiple levels, and I feel like whoever orchestrated the take-over made choices that specifically facilitated the overall crazy atmosphere. There were fistfights, screaming matches, fires, and just a general vibe that people were out to fuck shit up, and absolutely no attempt on the part of anyone to shut that sort of in-group violence down.

The setting on fire of the barricades was totally unnecessary, and may make it necessary for the city to call for the camp to be cleared; the breaking of windows and vandalizing of businesses which supported the strike was utterly stupid and counterproductive; and watching black bloc-ers run from the cops and not protect the camp their actions had endangered, an action which ultimately left behind many mentally ill people, sick people, street kids, and homeless folks to defend themselves against the police onslaught was disturbing and disgusting in ways I can't even articulate because I am still so angry at the empty bravado and cowardice that I saw.

I want people to march on the police. I want them to engage in significant and strategic property destruction, I want them to march on the police station, I want them to show the riot cops that they are not afraid, but I do not want them to do these things at the expense of the truly marginalized. That is what I saw happen last night, and it has made me incandescent with rage.

I want to win. I want our building occupations to last. I do not want them to be cleared within hours because a bunch of wild, fucked-up, selfish and wantonly destructive people, not all of whom identify as anarchist or black bloc, need to burn a bunch of shit to get an adrenaline rush by fighting with the cops.

Some of our own, including a fellow medic and friend, are in jail today because of their actions, and while I blame the arrests squarely on the cops, I want the black bloc to acknowledge that they created the conditions for that sort of thing to happen.

I want better tactics, and I want accountability to the communities that may be impacted by our behavior, and I saw none of that last night.

I saw black bloc kids running from the camp while it was under police assault, and as someone who spent about two hours negotiating and assisting in the care of an ostensibly homeless man from the camp, hit by a rubber bullet in the camp, while black bloc kids ran away to their safe homes and made comments like "at least we crushed the place" and "we'll just take it back," I want those kids to be held accountable to the damage that they did, damage made possible by their class and race privilege.

This letter was born out of anger and disgust at what I saw, but it also comes from a place of wanting to engage on these issues. I think that there is a place for these sorts of tactics in our movement, but they must not be guided by grandiose notions of anarchist glory, mob rule, and unfocused rage.

In Solidarity,

A longtime street medic

[Lynx]

do i need to think highly of sign waving peace nicks who link arms and scream the whole world is watching while getting their brain smashed in a futile attempt to get a sympathetic media report and a empty police violence condemnation from the dems?
they are of no help to anyone.

yet i still stand in solidarity with them and their chosen tactics... they are not mine, i rather "advance in the opposite direction" if faced by an overwhelming force with superior weaponry and return regrouped in a way and time that we can set the conditions for a riot in which we at least have a fighting chance. i might not stay to get my head bashed in and get arrested but i would not chide people who make that different choice either.
to each their own...
If the medic's letter is any indication, those sign waving peace nicks don't think you're helping them. Maybe they want you to take your lumps like everyone else. Maybe that is their definition of solidarity.

Small numbers of peaceful protesters are ineffective. The goal should be to grow the size of the protests.

[Fawkes]

Maybe they want you to take your lumps like the rest of them. Maybe that is their definition of solidarity.


What the fuck kind of solidarity is that?

[Leftsolidarity]

If the medic's letter is any indication, those sign waving peace nicks don't think you're helping them. Maybe they want you to take your lumps like the rest of them. Maybe that is their definition of solidarity.

Small numbers of peaceful protesters are ineffective. The goal should be to grow the size of the protests.

Maybe I think those peace nicks aren't helping us.

[Lynx]

Maybe I think those peace nicks aren't helping us.
Then don't help them and don't claim you are in solidarity with them.

[Leftsolidarity]

Then don't help them and don't claim you are in solidarity with them.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I agree with both sides to a point. There is a time and place for different tactics.

[Lynx]

What the fuck kind of solidarity is that?
Being a peaceful protester sometimes results in taking a beating from the police and getting arrested. If you don't share the same fate, how do you claim solidarity?

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Civil disobedience has become a near-lost art, comrade. :(

[Lynx]

I don't think the OWS protests are a repetition of the civil rights movement, but there are people who are hoping that it will have a similar effect on society. I'm not old enough to remember the civil rights movement. Those who are, are more optimistic and view the protests as a catalyst for something larger.

[Fawkes]

If you don't share the same fate, how do you claim solidarity?

Based off of a common enemy, goal, and class. I may not face public execution by the state if my sexuality is revealed, but that doesn't mean I can't claim solidarity with queer people in Saudi Arabia fighting the state. The simple act of being teargassed is not a point of unification, though it can serve as an impetus for it.



Being a peaceful protester sometimes results in taking a beating from the police and getting arrested.
Being a worker sometimes (re: always) results in that.

You said that the reason peacenicks don't like us is because we don't "take our lumps like everyone else". Believe me, I take more lumps than some suburban, petit-bourgeois liberal. Don't try to tell me I should let the cops beat me just so I can be on the same level as those who choose to do nothing to confront/evade them.





^^^ Civil disobedience has become a near-lost art, comrade.
Allowing yourself to be arrested is not disobedience. Being arrested is a powerful weapon... for the state. A bunch of pathetic douche bags standing around yelling "the whole world is watching" while someone's getting their skull cracked isn't solidarity nor is it disobedience, it's an acceptance of the authority held by the state/police. Pigs don't give a shit that "the whole world's watching" because the fact of the matter is that the whole world isn't watching "police brutality", most of us are living it. Ever wonder why so many workers and other marginalized communities tend to view most protesters as whiny, privileged brats?

There's no such thing as police brutality, just police. Their job is to brutalize and oppress, now fucking do something about it cause your peace signs don't change shit.



Edit: I'm sorry for coming across so aggressively, I don't mean for this to be taken as personal attacks against you. Regardless of their tactics, I still stand in full solidarity with everyone involved in the occupy movement and will continue to do everything in my power to defend them (save the paulites and ultra-liberals/police collaborators). It's just I can't help but come across that way given how many times since OWS began that I've been truncheoned, punched, kicked, gassed, charged with horses, and singled out for snatch squads with the vast majority of people sitting on the ground yelling "shame". I fully respect the diversity of tactics, but I can't help getting pissed off at the lack of militancy even if I understand why it exists.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I don't think the OWS protests are a repetition of the civil rights movement, but there are people who are hoping that it will have a similar effect on society. I'm not old enough to remember the civil rights movement. Those who are, are more optimistic and view the protests as a catalyst for something larger.

That "something larger" before "revolution" must be on an institutional basis (though not through existing institutions).

[Lynx]

Based off of a common enemy, goal, and class. I may not face public execution by the state if my sexuality is revealed, but that doesn't mean I can't claim solidarity with queer people in Saudi Arabia fighting the state. The simple act of being teargassed is not a point of unification, though it can serve as an impetus for it.
You may believe that, but what if the feelings of solidarity are not reciprocal?
The letter from the medic described what was appreciated and what was lacking, from her perspective.


Being a worker sometimes (re: always) results in that.

You said that the reason peacenicks don't like us is because we don't "take our lumps like everyone else". Believe me, I take more lumps than some suburban, petit-bourgeois liberal. Don't try to tell me I should let the cops beat me just so I can be on the same level as those who choose to do nothing to confront/evade them.
In that particular instance, the medic would have wanted the black bloc to mount a defense against the police. This is what I have inferred from what was written, among other things.


Allowing yourself to be arrested is not disobedience. Being arrested is a powerful weapon... for the state. A bunch of pathetic douche bags standing around yelling "the whole world is watching" while someone's getting their skull cracked isn't solidarity nor is it disobedience, it's an acceptance of the authority held by the state/police. Pigs don't give a shit that "the whole world's watching" because the fact of the matter is that the whole world isn't watching "police brutality", most of us are living it. Ever wonder why so many workers and other marginalized communities tend to view most protesters as whiny, privileged brats?
I just view them as ineffective.
Arrest is a weapon when the police have to arrest thousands, to the point where the system collapses under its own rules. Of course they will suspend the rules to make it easier to process, but that would not work if tens of thousands have to be arrested. The OWS is nowhere near that.
It takes large protests to challenge the ability of the state to implement crowd control.


Edit: I'm sorry for coming across so aggressively, I don't mean for this to be taken as personal attacks against you. Regardless of their tactics, I still stand in full solidarity with everyone involved in the occupy movement and will continue to do everything in my power to defend them (save the paulites and ultra-liberals/police collaborators). It's just I can't help but come across that way given how many times since OWS began that I've been truncheoned, punched, kicked, gassed, charged with horses, and singled out for snatch squads with the vast majority of people sitting on the ground yelling "shame". I fully respect the diversity of tactics, but I can't help getting pissed off at the lack of militancy even if I understand why it exists.
Why do you feel solidarity with the OWS movement?

[Lynx]

That "something larger" before "revolution" must be on an institutional basis (though not through existing institutions).
And that is where any similarity with the civil rights movement comes to an end.

[Leftsolidarity]

It takes large protests to challenge the ability of the state to implement crowd control.



Or large militant action. I don't want to just try to swell their prisons until they can't hold us all. We already arrest the biggest percentage of our population compared to everyone else in the world. Why would it bother them? Prison is a profitable business anyways.

[Lynx]

Or large militant action. I don't want to just try to swell their prisons until they can't hold us all. We already arrest the biggest percentage of our population compared to everyone else in the world. Why would it bother them? Prison is a profitable business anyways.
They will have resorted to more violent deterrents by then. I don't know if prison is an option - you have to be charged with a crime, then appear in court for your trial, then be convicted. How much room is available in the for-profit prisons?

[Leftsolidarity]

They will have resorted to more violent deterrents by then. I don't know if prison is an option - you have to be charged with a crime, then appear in court for your trial, then be convicted. How much room is available in the for-profit prisons?

Jails/Prisons/Courts/Custody. I don't care as long as the have the control. I don't want to just challenge their crowd control. I want to challenge their control in general.

[NewLeft]

Yes, FUCK WHOLE FOODS. Fuck their libertarian CEO. Fuck green capitalism. Let's smash some windows!1! ANARCHY!!1! :D

[Lynx]

Jails/Prisons/Courts/Custody. I don't care as long as the have the control. I don't want to just challenge their crowd control. I want to challenge their control in general.
Taking time off from work to protest would cause more disruption, as well as blocking commerce, etc. Followed by a national strike...

Small numbers = small disruption

[Fawkes]

You may believe that, but what if the feelings of solidarity are not reciprocal?

That means we have work to do. The current role of revolutionaries is to agitate and build consciousness so that those feelings of solidarity do become reciprocal.


The letter from the medic described what was appreciated and what was lacking, from her perspective.
I just got a chance to read it for the first time and I'm glad she wrote it. She made a lot of good points and raised many issues that need to be addressed if we have any hopes of progressing. I never claimed the actions of many of the individuals in the bloc in Oakland were flawless.


In that particular instance, the medic would have wanted the black bloc to mount a defense against the police. This is what I have inferred from what was written, among other things.
Given the circumstances (people present that could not effectively defend themselves) I wish that had happened too. I never said it should just end with smashing some windows, I really wish the more militant elements had stepped up en masse to defend everyone. That would've had a great effect at galvanizing this movement.


I just view them as ineffective.
View what as ineffective? Being arrested? It's pretty effective at placing activists in jail cells and perpetuating a sense of powerlessness against the state.


Arrest is a weapon when the police have to arrest thousands, to the point where the system collapses under its own rules. Of course they will suspend the rules to make it easier to process, but that would not work if tens of thousands have to be arrested. The OWS is nowhere near that.
There are effective methods of using the apparatuses of the state against itself. An example would be flash mobs. The police basically have no choice but to respond, but in doing so, they are forced to spread so thin that they can't possibly mount an effective assault. Allowing ourselves to be imprisoned, archived, and placed under the complete control of the state is not an effective method, because by the time there are hundreds of thousands of people in the streets fighting against the state, it won't just be an obstructing traffic ticket then go on your way.


Why do you feel solidarity with the OWS movement?
I feel solidarity with others fighting against the state to improve the world we live in. The majority of people involved in OWS may not be revolutionaries (yet), but the forces that drive them to act are the same that drive me and every other worker. There's potential to build a revolution here.

[Die Neue Zeit]

There are effective methods of using the apparatuses of the state against itself. An example would be flash mobs. The police basically have no choice but to respond, but in doing so, they are forced to spread so thin that they can't possibly mount an effective assault. Allowing ourselves to be imprisoned, archived, and placed under the complete control of the state is not an effective method, because by the time there are hundreds of thousands of people in the streets fighting against the state, it won't just be an obstructing traffic ticket then go on your way.

A much more effective method encompasses the tactics used for the building of a worker-class mass party-movement under a regime of some anti-socialist law.

[coda]

<<I just got a chance to read it for the first time and I'm glad she wrote it. She made a lot of good points and raised many issues that need to be addressed if we have any hopes of progressing.>>

No, those are the people you need to watch out for. Good thing she didn't have anyone's name.

[coda]

<<A much more effective method encompasses the tactics used for the building of a worker-class mass party-movement under a regime of some anti-socialist law.>>

actually, discard the party crapola methods as it's not very helpful unless election year for you guys and that's another year from now.. actually a year from yesterday.. as they've been splatting all over the news. Hey, How about just setting up training workshops at OWS's to learn Wild cat Strikes, worker's management, radical community action and mutual aid skills....

[Fawkes]

<<I just got a chance to read it for the first time and I'm glad she wrote it. She made a lot of good points and raised many issues that need to be addressed if we have any hopes of progressing.>>

No, those are the people you need to watch out for. Good thing she didn't have anyone's name.

She commented on how it would've been better if members of the bloc had acted to defend those that were not equipped to do so themselves and how there should've been a more effective strategy for taking and defending the building. Those seem to be pretty valid points to me

[Ele'ill]

evidence?

It's 2011 and there's 50 people in these blocs.

[Ele'ill]

anarchists have been a major part of organizing the occupy protests from the get go and this is especially true in oakland from what i understand.

Just throwing this piece of factual information out there- Here in Portland there are at least two different 'anarchist camps'. One camp has been very busy- the other not so much.

[Sensible Socialist]

It's interesting that those decrying the methods of the black bloc never seem to take part in the alternative actions they suggest.

[Ele'ill]

It's interesting that those decrying the methods of the black bloc never seem to take part in the alternative actions they suggest.

Please, elaborate.

[bcbm]

Are we supposed to think highly of anonymous "anarchists" who run away while ordinary protesters get clubbed and tear-gassed?
They are of no help to anyone.

i think its weird that they're criticized for being too violent against windows and not violent enough against the cops. i suspect if the anarchists had tried to fight the cops back, this would've just been added to the rants against them 'the police attacked us because the anarchists fought back'

[Threetune]

For the sake of clarity, the Oakland battalion of black block should change their slogan from Do it! Do it! Do it! to Leg it! Leg it! Leg it!:laugh:

[Sensible Socialist]

Please, elaborate.
I haven't read every post on this thread, or seen every video of the protests, but the calls for alternative actions (namely re appropriating the foods in the stores and handed out to the poor) don't seem to be heeded by those calling for it. How many people denouncing the black bloc have instead broken into a Whole Foods and handed out the bounty to the poor? How many have taken from clothing stores and food stores, instead of just breaking a window or two, and given it all to the poor?

I don't disagree that the black bloc needs to go a step further and start taking goods from the stores, but I don't think its the place of people who aren't doing much action to get all high and mighty on their internet thrones.