Kontrrazvedka

[Искра]

Kontrrazvedka was an anarchist secret police (anarchist Cheka) durring Makhnovist Ukraine.

What do you think off it? Do anarchists here support creation of such organisation?

Here's an interesting book on that subject: http://www.anarkismo.net/article/10705


Download link: http://ifile.it/6wi0heo

[Hivemind]

Hmm, this is new to me. Don't know what to say yet, buy imma read that book, thanks for the link.

[khad]

Makhno, IIRC, never described himself as an anarchist.

[Искра]

Makhno, IIRC, never described himself as an anarchist.He did. He was a member of anarchists organisations since he was 15.

Also, he wrote Platform (http://www.nestormakhno.info/english/newplatform/org_plat.htm), which is an anarchist document.

Also, check this out:
http://www.nestormakhno.info/english/anar_rev.htm
http://www.nestormakhno.info/english/struggle.htm
http://www.nestormakhno.info/english/abc.htm

etc.

Aslo, good book on Makhno: A. Skidra: Nestor Makhno: Anarchy's Cossack

[Manic Impressive]

I'm sure Bakhunin would have been proud of a secret conspiratorial society in charge of "protecting workers".

[khad]

Actually, that's more the case of people like Emma Goldman assigning anarchy to his movement.

Formally, Makhno considered himself a libertarian communist, which is a related ideology but with important theoretical distinctions.

[Искра]

Libertarian communism = anarchism. I just posted you articles by Makhno in which he writes about anarchism, anarchist revolution and anarchist organisations.

[khad]

Libertarian communism = anarchism.
Not according to Makhno.
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/makhno-nestor/works/1926/platform/ch02.htm#s3


Anarchism is generally humanitarian only in the sense that the ideas of the masses tend to improve the lives of all men, and that the fate of today's or tomorrow's humanity is inseparable from that of exploited labour. If the working masses are victorious, all humanity will be reborn; if they are not, violence, exploitation, slavery and oppression will reign as before in the world.

The birth, the blossoming, and the realisation of anarchist ideas have their roots in the life and life and the struggle of the working masses and are inseparably bound to their fate.

Anarchism wants to transform the present bourgeois capitalist society into a society which assures the workers the products of their labours, their liberty, independence, and social and political equality. This other society will be libertarian communism, in which social solidarity and free individuality find their full expression, and in which these two ideas develop in perfect harmony.

Libertarian communism believes that the only creator of social value is labour, physical or intellectual, and consequently only labour has the right to manage social and economic life. Because of this, it neither defends nor allows, in any measure, the existence of non-working classes.

If I get the analogy, anarchism is to libertarian communism as socialism is to communism.

[Искра]

Libertarian communism is society which anarcho-communists want to create. It's opposite of autoritarian communism, or state capitalist regimes.

http://libcom.org/thought/libertarian-communism-capitalism-direct-action-introduction

But, this discussion is quite off topic don't you agree?

If you want to claim that Makhnovist movement wasn't anarchists and therfore Kontrrazvedka is not "anarchist secret police" I can give your sources of existance of such units in Spanish Civil War.

[Rafiq]

Actually, that's more the case of people like Emma Goldman assigning anarchy to his movement.

Formally, Makhno considered himself a libertarian communist, which is a related ideology but with important theoretical distinctions.

Wow, I didn't know that about him.

What did he think about Marxism?

[Rafiq]

Such organizations are normal during times of revolution.

Even for Anarchists, they are necessary.

I *think* what Khad is trying to say is that Makhno kind of had a stage-thing going on. That measures were necessary to protect the revolution that won't exist forever.

Sound a little familiar, though.

[socialistjustin]

Do I support organizations like these? Yes. Do I like it that it's necessary to protect yourself during a revolution? No. But it is necessary and that's just the way it is. Sounds like these guys were badasses though. The plan to bomb the Kremlin on the anniversary of the October revolution is pretty fucking audacious.

[Seth]

Hypocrisy at its finest.

[Susurrus]

Hmmm. Need to read book, since Trotsky made much of this.

[Rafiq]

Do I support organizations like these? Yes. Do I like it that it's necessary to protect yourself during a revolution? No. But it is necessary and that's just the way it is. Sounds like these guys were badasses though. The plan to bomb the Kremlin on the anniversary of the October revolution is pretty fucking audacious.

Link? Never heard that one before

[Patagonia]

Hypocrisy at its finest.



Sectarianism is Dumb

Seriously. I've been here a little over a month, and it seems like the various leftist factions hate each other more than they hate the ruling class or the fascists. Is it really that much to ask that people understand where the other side is coming from? I thought this was a discussion forum, not an attack forum or a gladiator arena. The dumbness comes from Stalinists, Trotskyists, anarchists, etc in equal measure, so don't act like some sect is more responsible than another. If you only have something trollish, snobby, humorous (meant to attack or a reductio ad ridiculum) don't say anything. Geezus. I bet this drives so many workers away from the left. I've about had enough of it, mostly from petty one-liners.


Cool story Hansel.

[Seth]

Cool story Hansel.

You know, a stalinist made that same exact kind of post the other day (post my blog) when I called them out. Why can't people just admit their heroes were inconsistent/wrong/etc?

[Искра]

Link? Never heard that one before
It was Petrograd Soviet not Kremlin.
It's in a book in my first post here ;)
They almost killed Lenin and Zinoviev.

[Patagonia]

You know, a stalinist made that same exact kind of post the other day (post my blog) when I called them out. Why can't people just admit their heroes were inconsistent/wrong/etc?

Mine is funnier because you also commented on hypocrisy on your original post.

Makhno is not my hero, but I don't see why an undercover intelligence force, specially in that context (with the authoritarian russians as neighbors, and not the good kind), is hypocritical.

[socialistjustin]

It was Petrograd Soviet not Kremlin.
It's in a book in my first post here ;)
They almost killed Lenin and Zinoviev.

For fucks sake I just read it and I already forgot which place they were planning to bomb. Sorry for the confusion.


I went back and I was right. It's on page 17 of the book. They wanted to blow up the entire Soviet government. The Petrograd attack was the first bombing.

[A Marxist Historian]

He did. He was a member of anarchists organisations since he was 15.

Also, he wrote Platform (http://www.nestormakhno.info/english/newplatform/org_plat.htm), which is an anarchist document.

Also, check this out:
http://www.nestormakhno.info/english/anar_rev.htm
http://www.nestormakhno.info/english/struggle.htm
http://www.nestormakhno.info/english/abc.htm

etc.

Aslo, good book on Makhno: A. Skidra: Nestor Makhno: Anarchy's Cossack

He did consider himself an anarchist. However, most Russian anarchists at the time disagreed. His anarchist idolaters, Voline and the other fella, spend a lot of time in their books about him complaining about this.

"Anarchy's cossack" is a good title, accurate. The Cossacks, of course, were and are the vanguard of reaction in Russia and Ukraine. The prime tool of the Tsars vs. revolution. And now, a highly reactionary, right wing anti-Semitic force over there.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Mine is funnier because you also commented on hypocrisy on your original post.

Makhno is not my hero, but I don't see why an undercover intelligence force, specially in that context (with the authoritarian russians as neighbors, and not the good kind), is hypocritical.

Well, there was their bad habit of torturing their prisoners to death. Something Dzherzhinsky, by the way, never allowed, Chekists guilty of using torture were shot quite frequently.

I suppose from Makhno's POV, as he was an anarchist or libertarian communist or whatever, he thought he had no right to criticize Kontrrazvedka and his other secret police organization (he had two of them) for their methods. Do your own thing you know?

Just like he had a blase attitude to Ukrainian peasants engaged in pogroms vs. Jews. I mean, if that's what the people want, how can a true anarchist object?

-M.H.-

[Искра]

"Anarchy's cossack" is a good title, accurate. The Cossacks, of course, were and are the vanguard of reaction in Russia and Ukraine. The prime tool of the Tsars vs. revolution. And now, a highly reactionary, right wing anti-Semitic force over there
Are you accusing Makhnovists for pogroms?

[Rafiq]

Well, there was their bad habit of torturing their prisoners to death. Something Dzherzhinsky, by the way, never allowed, Chekists guilty of using torture were shot quite frequently.



Can you link this? Never knew that!

[Bronco]

Interesting, I've never heard of such an organisation before and google brings up very little, might try and get my hands on that book although if it is essentially a secret police service then I definitely wouldn't defend it

[Искра]

Interesting, I've never heard of such an organisation before and google brings up very little, might try and get my hands on that book although if it is essentially a secret police service then I definitely wouldn't defend it
I posted a download link :) Book is short.

[Bronco]

I posted a download link :) Book is short.

Oh yeah thanks, don't know how I missed that

[tir1944]

So there existed a terrorist organization which sought to kill Lenin and his closest associates!
They even managed to shoot and seriously wound Lenin back in 1918 IIRC.I don't know if Fanny Kaplan was a "lone wolf" or not,but the USSR was teeming with all kinds of spies and saboteurs,many of whom enterned into "hibernation" at one point,but always keeping an eye out for the right opportunity to wreck,sabotage and and attack the Soviet power.

[Susurrus]

So there existed a terrorist organization which sought to kill Lenin and his closest associates!

Have you really not even read your own ideology's propaganda on the subject?

[A Marxist Historian]

Are you accusing Makhnovists for pogroms?

Yes indeed. The evidence for this is solid. See the article I posted here a few months ago on this subject.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/makhno-file-t158083/index.html?t=158083

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Can you link this? Never knew that!

There are books out there, don't know of any recent Internet links.

-M.H.-