Assange is now doomed.

[Susurrus]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/03/world/europe/wikileaks-founder-faces-extradition-hearing-in-london.html

[Smyg]

I care this much.

[robbo203]

What is this rival document-leaking site mentioned in the OP's linked article. How is it faring in the wake of Wikileaks' misfortunes? Does anyone have a link to it and do they consider it to be an advance on the way Wikleaks was run (which by all accounts seems to have been tightly controlled by Assange himself)

[Lynx]

And Bradley Manning? Is he doomed too?

[Princess Luna]

And Bradley Manning? Is he doomed too?
Sadly he was doomed from the beginning, because he was in the military they can hold him without a trial indefinitly.

[Agathor]

Assange is a misogynistic, egotistical punk. While Bradley Manning sat in an empty prison cell, Julian Assange jetted around the world having half-consensual sex with his female cultists and taking all of the credit for Manning's tremendous sacrifice.

He also hired the neofascist Israel Shamir, whom, as well as being a brazen anti-semite, is a good friend of the Dictator of Belarus, Alexander Lukashenko. At some point Shamir disappeared with some secret cables; soon after, Lukashenko began arresting swathes of dissidents.

[ZeroNowhere]

This is expected, but unfortunate.

[Ernesto Che Makuc]

and this affects wikileaks how? if assange is in prison they can still publish secret documents.
And assange its your own falt for screwing up bytches

[SemperFidelis]

What happens when you commit treason.

[RedAnarchist]

What happens when you commit treason.

Assange himself is not a US citizen. As for Manning, are you seriously advocating the legalised murder of a young and unstable man simply because he went against his country's government?

[SemperFidelis]

Assange himself is not a US citizen. As for Manning, are you seriously advocating the legalised murder of a young and unstable man simply because he went against his country's government?

Seriously? I may be a bit biased as I am a US Marine but he swore an oath to his country, he wasn't a civilian exercising his right of speech. He was entrusted with a security clearance and violated the law, his integrity and the oath he took. And he endangered his fellow brothers in arms by giving the enemy information they could use against our boys in country. He very well could have caused many deaths himself. You can argue he was aiding the workers struggle etc. But he took an oath. If we lived in a socialist America even then how can someone like that be trusted? Pretty sickening.

[xub3rn00dlex]

Seriously? I may be a bit biased as I am a US Marine but he swore an oath to his country, he wasn't a civilian exercising his right of speech. He was entrusted with a security clearance and violated the law, his integrity and the oath he took. And he endangered his fellow brothers in arms by giving the enemy information they could use against our boys in country. He very well could have caused many deaths himself. You can argue he was aiding the workers struggle etc. But he took an oath. If we lived in a socialist America even then how can someone like that be trusted? Pretty sickening.

I took an oath to not lie. I took an oath to swear to tell the truth in court. I took an oath to pay back my friend. Who gives a shit?

[SemperFidelis]

You would understand if you were in the military. Honor, courage, commitment.

Plus you're saying fuck all oaths and commitments? I guess Obama should ignore his Presidential oath and just issue martial law and declare himself Eternal President.

[xub3rn00dlex]

You would understand if you were in the military. Honor, courage, commitment.

LOL. Honor? What is honor to you, is not honor to him, is not honor to her, and vice versa. Honor is a subjective load of bullshit, and really is some poor concept that doesn't exist. Courage? What he did isn't courageous KNOWING what his punishment would be? And commitment? You got me, us commies/anarchists know nothing of commitment to a cause. Committing yourself to serving in the interests of the ruling class in their imperialist interests is not something to take pride in.



Plus you're saying fuck all oaths and commitments? I guess Obama should ignore his Presidential oath and just issue martial law and declare himself Eternal President.

I'm saying taking an oath doesn't mean shit, and isn't worth shit.

[Susurrus]

What's honorable, covering up lies, or showing the world the truth?

[#FF0000]

You would understand if you were in the military. Honor, courage, commitment.

So what does covering up the murder of civilians have to do with honor, courage, or commitment?

Motherfuck someone just get cmoney in this thread please.

[X5N]

What happens when you commit treason.

Treason is such a bullshit nationalist concept.

[SemperFidelis]

LOL. Honor? What is honor to you, is not honor to him, is not honor to her, and vice versa. Honor is a subjective load of bullshit, and really is some poor concept that doesn't exist. Courage? What he did isn't courageous KNOWING what his punishment would be? And commitment? You got me, us commies/anarchists know nothing of commitment to a cause. Committing yourself to serving in the interests of the ruling class in their imperialist interests is not something to take pride in.



I'm saying taking an oath doesn't mean shit, and isn't worth shit.

Wont let me post links but google the definition.

Killing civilians is in no way authorized or honorable, you are right but unless you have been in country please shut the fuck up. Many of my friends have died trying to protect the civilians there. I could have saved one of my Marines but my call for fire was not authorized because he was a possible civilian. The fucker planted an IED and got a close friend of mine killed. You make me sick, were it not for the military establishment and the highest standards they uphold Al Qaeda would kill every single one of you simply for their hatred of Americans.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Seriously? I may be a bit biased as I am a US Marine but he swore an oath to his country, he wasn't a civilian exercising his right of speech. He was entrusted with a security clearance and violated the law, his integrity and the oath he took. And he endangered his fellow brothers in arms by giving the enemy information they could use against our boys in country. He very well could have caused many deaths himself. You can argue he was aiding the workers struggle etc. But he took an oath. If we lived in a socialist America even then how can someone like that be trusted? Pretty sickening.
If you are actually a U.S. marine I don't think you're welcome here.

[Ocean Seal]

LOL. Honor? What is honor to you, is not honor to him, is not honor to her, and vice versa. Honor is a subjective load of bullshit, and really is some poor concept that doesn't exist. Courage? What he did isn't courageous KNOWING what his punishment would be? And commitment? You got me, us commies/anarchists know nothing of commitment to a cause. Committing yourself to serving in the interests of the ruling class in their imperialist interests is not something to take pride in.



I'm saying taking an oath doesn't mean shit, and isn't worth shit.

You're arguing with a guy called Semper Fidelis. Always loyal who is part of the marine corp. Actually, I'm kind of wondering why he's on here in the first place?

[o well this is ok I guess]

You can argue he was aiding the workers struggle etc. But he took an oath. If we lived in a socialist America even then how can someone like that be trusted? Pretty sickening. Yeah, what if he leaks our indiscriminate civilian killing?

wait a minute....

[WeAreReborn]

Wont let me post links but google the definition.

Killing civilians is in no way authorized or honorable, you are right but unless you have been in country please shut the fuck up. Many of my friends have died trying to protect the civilians there. I could have saved one of my Marines but my call for fire was not authorized because he was a possible civilian. The fucker planted an IED and got a close friend of mine killed. You make me sick, were it not for the military establishment and the highest standards they uphold Al Qaeda would kill every single one of you simply for their hatred of Americans.
You really are brainwashed. Al Qaeda hates America due to their absolutely horrible and oppressive foreign policy. America has kept the Middle East in extreme poverty to strip their natural resources. Al Qaeda is simply a reaction to this. They are extremely reactionary and shouldn't be supported but their existence has a reason. So no the military is not saving civilians. The military is trying to overthrow the current government to put in a US friendly one. And they will not stop regardless of how many they have killed or will kill. Look at Iraq, over 1 million Iraqis died. Yeah way to liberate them.

[xub3rn00dlex]

SF, I am sorry for your loss and I did lose two of my friends who went to serve in the military. That doesn't make it right for us to invade destroy their fucking lives. How many tens of thousands of innocent Afghanis died because we decided to go after a group who hates us because we are constantly sticking our fucking nose where it don't belong?


You're arguing with a guy called Semper Fidelis. Always loyal who is part of the marine corp. Actually, I'm kind of wondering why he's on here in the first place?

I know... these kind of people really do make me fucking sad though.

[#FF0000]

Wont let me post links but google the definition.

Killing civilians is in no way authorized or honorable, you are right but unless you have been in country please shut the fuck up. Many of my friends have died trying to protect the civilians there. I could have saved one of my Marines but my call for fire was not authorized because he was a possible civilian. The fucker planted an IED and got a close friend of mine killed. You make me sick, were it not for the military establishment and the highest standards they uphold Al Qaeda would kill every single one of you simply for their hatred of Americans.

If it was not for the military establishment, there'd likely be no Al Qaeda actually lol.

War is a racket and you're a gangster for capitalism. Didn't hear it from me, though. I heard it from a motherfucker with two Medals of Honor (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Smedley_Butler)

[SemperFidelis]

Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine and self proclaimed communist. I am experimenting with Marxism at the moment thus why I am here to learn more about the leftist side of politics.


Yeah, what if he leaks our indiscriminate civilian killing
Have you forgotten 9/11? What about the civilians killed there? Oh and civilians killed during the Soviet era for pursuing freedom of speech? North Korea? Im sorry but its not just about civilian killing which is wrong and i honestly believe.it was not on purpose. He leaked other confidential information as well like where our FOBs are and equipment and plans etc

[#FF0000]

Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine and self proclaimed communist. I am experimenting with Marxism at the moment thus why I am here to learn more about the leftist side of politics.

Well, welcome guy. We actually have at least one dude here who was in the military himself, so.

But anyway, the left doesn't take an especially keen view to the military (or the police), because they are basically the armed wing of capital. Smedley Butler's "War Is A Racket" is a real good, and real basic introduction to how the military is used to pave the way for business, so I'd suggest you go check that one out.

[#FF0000]

Have you forgotten 9/11? What about the civilians killed there?

Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11.

And 9/11 itself was just another instance of people suffering because of a lover's quarrel between too factions of the bourgeoisie.

[SemperFidelis]

Well, welcome guy. We actually have at least one dude here who was in the military himself, so.

But anyway, the left doesn't take an especially keen view to the military (or the police), because they are basically the armed wing of capital. Smedley Butler's "War Is A Racket" is a real good, and real basic introduction to how the military is used to pave the way for business, so I'd suggest you go check that one out.

Thank you, i hope to stay if allowed.

But its still necessary to preserve the state and its ideals until the world is united into one communist society. Anyway, really? I will definately check that out, especially since we're taught to praise Smedley Butler and Dan Daly as heros of the Corps during the Boxer Rebellion.

[Susurrus]

Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine and self proclaimed communist.

Not a very good rolemodel, he barely knew anything about communism and was quite insane by all accounts.


I am experimenting with Marxism at the moment thus why I am here to learn more about the leftist side of politics.


Welcome then. I recommend you talk to the user cmoney, he's a vet and can probably help you out a bit. Also, what tendency do you consider yourself, if any?


Have you forgotten 9/11? What about the civilians killed there?
Nobody is condoning 9/11. We simply also condemn the US government, and all other oppressive entities for the blood on their hands and the crimes they shall pay for.


Oh and civilians killed during the Soviet era for pursuing freedom of speech? North Korea? Im sorry but its not just about civilian killing which is wrong and i honestly believe.it was not on purpose.
Most of us here consider the USSR to be just as oppressive and exploitative as the capitalists.


He leaked other confidential information as well like where our FOBs are and equipment and plans etc

I believe most of that info was censored out or the releases, though I could be wrong.

[#FF0000]

Thank you, i hope to stay if allowed.

Worst you'll get is restricted to Opposing Ideologies, maybe. No big, tho.


But its still necessary to preserve the state and its ideals until the
world is united into one communist society.

Nah. Destroy All Nations is our stance, for the most part.


Anyway, really? I will definately check that out, especially since we're taught to praise Smedley Butler and Dan Daly as heros of the Corps during the Boxer Rebellion.

Yeah Smedley Butler was a dirty red and was none too proud of his service record as evidenced by this:


“I spent thirty-three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country’s most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism....

“I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

“During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”

[SemperFidelis]

Interesting! Id like to talk to cmoney, im looking for some sort of mentor to guide me through the leftist ideals. What branch was he in?

I dont understand why everyone hates the military so much though, i feel the upmost pride serving the Corps.

[xub3rn00dlex]

Interesting! Id like to talk to cmoney, im looking for some sort of mentor to guide me through the leftist ideals. What branch was he in?

I dont understand why everyone hates the military so much though, i feel the upmost pride serving the Corps.

Mostly because they serve the ruling elite in raping the rest of the world for their own interests. Maybe with enough time and exposure you'll begin to see the military the way the rest of us do, and even if you choose not to follow it, at least you'll be able to understand more.

A question, what is it about serving that makes you proud? Is it your dedication to the US, or the fact that you have a bond with those you serve?

[#FF0000]

I dont understand why everyone hates the military so much though, i feel the upmost pride serving the Corps.

Like I said, it's the sword and shield of the ruling class. "Serving your country" pretty much translates to serving to those who own it.

[SemperFidelis]

Maybe that is true today but what about the military in times such as in WW2 when they defended against the Japanese and Germans? You are describing modern American imperialism, the military can be good.

[xub3rn00dlex]

Maybe that is true today but what about the military in times such as in WW2 when they defended against the Japanese and Germans? You are describing modern American imperialism, the military can be good.

I recommend you start a new thread, since we've already derailed this topic pretty far. Don't want you getting in trouble just yet ;)

[Susurrus]

I dont understand why everyone hates the military so much though, i feel the upmost pride serving the Corps.

Mostly because of the atrocities it has committed, the exploitative government and system it serves, the ruthless manipulation and corruption of the secret parts and higher command, and the undemocratic way in which it is organized. We consider the soldiers themselves to be proletarians, if brainwashed and misguided ones.

[Susurrus]

Maybe that is true today but what about the military in times such as in WW2 when they defended against the Japanese and Germans? You are describing modern American imperialism, the military can be good.

It wasn't the Japanese and Germans we oppose, that is nationalist simplism. It is instead the Nazis and Empire we despise, and the US just set the old tyrants back in their place after the defeat of the new ones. Also old American imperialism, don't forget the Phillipines, etc.

[Lynx]

Maybe that is true today but what about the military in times such as in WW2 when they defended against the Japanese and Germans? You are describing modern American imperialism, the military can be good.
Makes me wonder if German and Japanese soldiers had similar feelings about their military. Or did they realize they were the 'bad guys' and secretly felt ashamed?

[Bardo]

I dont understand why everyone hates the military so much though, i feel the upmost pride serving the Corps.

Personally, I don't hate people serving in the military. My uncle and my cousin have served and I know that many of them are there because they have little or no other options. I just don't feel like I owe them personal gratitude for entering the service. I'm not a American nationalist, I don't feel any more safe because we've invaded two countries, I'm not concerned with revenge for 9/11. I think the wars have been costly both in money that we could've spent elsewhere and in human life. Much of our budget is made up of defense spending and the right is blaming the poor because we're broke. :blink:

[#FF0000]

Maybe that is true today but what about the military in times such as in WW2 when they defended against the Japanese and Germans? You are describing modern American imperialism, the military can be good.

American Imperialism was alive and well before WW2 as well, and honestly it isn't as if WW2 was a "good war" either (there's no such thing). Just another case of workers slaughtering workers.

[RedZero]

You really are brainwashed. Al Qaeda hates America due to their absolutely horrible and oppressive foreign policy. America has kept the Middle East in extreme poverty to strip their natural resources. Al Qaeda is simply a reaction to this. They are extremely reactionary and shouldn't be supported but their existence has a reason. So no the military is not saving civilians. The military is trying to overthrow the current government to put in a US friendly one. And they will not stop regardless of how many they have killed or will kill. Look at Iraq, over 1 million Iraqis died. Yeah way to liberate them.

You replied to his post with what I was going to. Tip of the hat.

Many people think about this issue (terrorism, how the United States is viewed, etc.) in black-and-white, when there are shades of gray.

[Jose Gracchus]

Seriously? I may be a bit biased as I am a US Marine but he swore an oath to his country, he wasn't a civilian exercising his right of speech. He was entrusted with a security clearance and violated the law, his integrity and the oath he took. And he endangered his fellow brothers in arms by giving the enemy information they could use against our boys in country. He very well could have caused many deaths himself. You can argue he was aiding the workers struggle etc. But he took an oath. If we lived in a socialist America even then how can someone like that be trusted? Pretty sickening.

I have no sentimentality for the Constitution and America's riposte to the Führereid made in reverence to it. That thing is not a legitimate authority, and wasn't even when the ink was wet. Realize where you are. Communists do not see it as having any intrinsic moral value. No more than I have for Cosa Nostra capos who live their code as men of violence, and stick with their tribe, and do not inform for the police or rival thugs. We are for social revolution and the abolition of classes, and with it, value-production. As Marx noted, this necessarily implies political revolution against the bourgeois (U.S. constitutional republican) state, in the same way "an earthquake entails the overturn of a chicken-house." It goes without saying, that this obviates any sentimental connection to loyalty in the abstract. Though no one, bourgeoisie cynics or Marines included, really believes in loyalty in principle. Do American nationalists forsake the human intelligence of foreign defectors?


Maybe that is true today but what about the military in times such as in WW2 when they defended against the Japanese and Germans? You are describing modern American imperialism, the military can be good.

Defended what? An apartheid U.S. colony (gained via treachery and subversion by U.S. business against the indigenous regime) where the natives could not vote and had to work for a pittance for an oligopoly of American businesses? Look up Hawaii's "Big Five" and what pre-1950s Hawaiian politics and society was like, especially for the natives.

Hitler had to declare war on the U.S. for us to fight him. Though we obviously wanted to. Not because we had a problem with German imperialism in the abstract, we just thought we should replace the British Empire, not German Europe.

[robbo203]

You would understand if you were in the military. Honor, courage, commitment.

Plus you're saying fuck all oaths and commitments? I guess Obama should ignore his Presidential oath and just issue martial law and declare himself Eternal President.


Commitment? Commitment to the support and maintenance of that capitalist and class-collaborationist institution , the nation state? You would seriously lay down your life in the cause of capitalism and upon the orders of a capitalist government? You would willingly kill fellow workers from some other part of the world for no other reason than that "their" state is at war with "yours"?

What the hell are you doing in the army if you consider yourself a socialist? There is no honour in it. I served my time in the South African army but I was very young , very naive and conscripted. Some of my fellow conscripts were killed in Angola implementing South Africa's "total onslaught" strategy against the MPLA. Others were drafted into restoring order in the black townships aloft hippo trucks in defence of the apartheid regime. You live and learn. I hope you do as well.

[Sam Varriano]

You would understand if you were in the military. Honor, courage, commitment.

Plus you're saying fuck all oaths and commitments? I guess Obama should ignore his Presidential oath and just issue martial law and declare himself Eternal President.

No, but I am saying fuck facism because some of us actually want to win the class war oppose to follow orders given to us by reactionaries.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I guess Obama should ignore his Presidential oath and just issue martial law and declare himself Eternal President.

shit i'm for it

[Rusty Shackleford]

On the issue of oaths. really, they don't mean shit. all they really are are just contracts.

Did i take an oath to promote the interests of the working class? no. do i need one? no!

As for being a service member, you are welcome to stay because ones position in society really doesnt matter on this board. Its how they interact with society that matters. If someone is anti-communist or counterrevolutionary then they get restricted. If someone is a fascist then they are banned. no question.

As for "oath keepers" oath keepers are basically like the freikorps if they are also militia members. fanatical constitution defending is like fanatical race-nationalism in the sense that it is fanatical and reactionary.

I would encourage you to stay but i would also like to encourage you to read up on some current revolutionary veterans organization literature and also look at anti-war vet organizations.

Here's the 10 point program of March Forward! (http://www2.answercoalition.org/site/PageServer?pagename=VSMTF_10pointprogram) an active duty and veterans revolutionary organization.

There is also the IVAW (Iraq Veterans Against the War) and the VFP (Veterans For Peace) a member of the VFP who was a former Marine was the victim of the state's repression of a movement. Those police have the same duty to "uphold the constitution" and what happens? A working class vet of the marine corps was nearly killed last week. He had to take the same or similar oath and he got shot for protesting. Oaths and military creedos dont mean anything if they only serve to repress and kill your working class brethren.

"The bayonet is a weapon with a worker on each end"

[∞]

You would understand if you were in the military. Honor, courage, commitment.



Restrict him please.

[Smyg]

Time and time again I see this guy's reactionary views.